Just because you claim my statementd arent based on meta data doesnt mean it isnt. Look at the data. Over 50% of decks are aggro.
You can make any claim youd like about data, but its all there and mostly supports my argument.
But facts dont win an argument. Especially when it comes down to a game that fills a lot of voids in people lives.
In my not so humble opinion. MTG needs to stop dumbing the game down and stop restricting playstyles.
The unban everything is an extremely valid argument. You have a format that is out of balance and has been for a long time. The "data" is misconstrued by Pro Tour events that make it seen that decision based decks are viable.
Why even discuss banning things that hinder a deck if we can just unban everything and have a wide open format again?
There is more than one argument to be had on the topic of the modern metagame and its complete lack of balance.
If you dojt want to play againat seething song or birthing pod or splinter twin, then why do have the right to whine about me not wanting to play against Cavern?
I argue thay thr other three currently banned cards i mentioned can at least be interacted with in a multitude of ways... cavern just 1 or 2 and they are slow.
Gimmie "data" (i know it sounds like a scientific thing to say and the way yout argument is percieved means a lot to you) as to why Pod and Twin were jusifiably banned.
Now, once we wade through the pseudo-scientific bull*****, we can have a serious discusion as to why you think a metagame where every other match vs aggro is good for mTG while i think its awful.
Id like to also keep the Ancient Stirring discussion up here. I think thats definitely PE #2. As ive been watching these games it does become pretty sad seeing turn 3 Karn. Im no combo guy, but at least they have to work for it. The tron guys just... draw cards and play them... hmm
No.one here is struggling against jt. That isnt the point. The point is, why is it it needed? Its being abused. Creatures are so powerful now and in such great abundance that why do we allow mana fixing and uncounterability too?
Aggro is 50%+ of the format. Considering the plethora of archetypes available that is an overwhelming majority.
Ive been home sick for a week now just watching old PTs and GPs. Lets watch Patrick Chapin vs Shahar Shenhar. Delver vs Burn. Watch how incredible this matchup is. All the little choices and how they matter. Watch a pro make mistakes because... magic is tough.
Then lets watch (and ill leave the eldrazi winter out of it because its jist too easy) PT Ixalan. Duke on Abzan and Asian Guy on Hollow One. Just watch the inevitability of the games. There is minimal interaction and tons on random nonsense.
Now these are pT exampoes and typically top level players prefer interactive decks so the data is scewed (if we use this to understand what dexks are good). The reality is, at a regular GP or FNM you are bound to play every other match against some mindless aggro smash. Thats not fun. Thats not a good environment.
So, without inserting any comments into the wrong oriface (easy to do based on the nature and background of the common mtger) lets understand something.
Aggro has taken over our metagame. How do we stop it. How do we bring back some tempo and combo and midrangey stuff into the format (because tap out control is loving this... supreme/azcanta/teferi)? We take away a land that is not required for the archetype to succeed, but makes the archetype easy to play.
Thank you.
Once you are able to get over yourselves you will see my point.
Your virtue signaling is falling deaf ears and heres why:
My style of magic is not an accepted play style by wotc. So i have two choices. Play their way (tap and slap) or play something else.
Take a look at the meta game. Decks running 20+ creatures are running rampant.
You say this very lovely thing about how modern is a format where you can play whatever you like... yet you leave out the most important part: NOT IF YOU WANT TO WIN.
When modern first came into existence this was true. There were tons of viable strategies and crazy unique stuff happening.
Then cavern happened. Then bannings happened. Now we get saddled with another format similar to standard. Wotc will determkne the meta for us. And we will abide. Because most of the mtg community has nothing else to do.
Id like add something else:
Im noy telling you you can stuff 40 creatures in your deck. Im not telling you you cant play that way. Im just telling you that i should be able to cancel your creature before it strips card out of my hand or does more powerful.things than my spells do.
You see you have no choice to make in deck construction. You dont have to find a balance of threats and interaction and draw. Hell, you dont even have to intelligently think about land! You just push creatures into your deck box and play.
Now thinking objectively about what constitutes a healthy competitive environment, woulnt you say thats a little... easy? Do you want to have your cake and eat it to.
Run your creatures. Run your aether vial or birthing pod. Knock yourself out. But you dont get a mama fixing land that makes your creatured uncounterable too.
Yet the most popular pauper deck according to mtgtop8 is Mono Green. Spouting off opinions is fine, but acting like yours are based on more facts than anyone elses is just ignorant. Typical though.
Having legacy level draw spells doesnt have the same effect when you cant draw into cards that end the game single handedly. Without having any experience with the format, how can you give an honest assesment?
Plenty of people show up with Skred Delver and Monarch and Green... and many people show up with brews. The most importanr thing is that the decks have enough air in them to allow players to outplay their opponents.
MTG modern and standard is becomming a lot more like Hearthstone. Rock Paper Scissors deck based games. When you remove ways to interact with people (ie cavern of souls) you take the air out of the game.
I realize most people dont care to have to plan things out, or sculpt a turn or prevent an opponent from executing their strategy. But if MTG keeps going the way of Tap and Slap then players are gonna keep flocking from format to format.
Modern got so popular because of this. Now Pauper will be the new Modern. Then WotC will F that up. Mr. Rosewater and the other kool-aid drinkers need to stop telling people how to play. Stop making the game so that mythic permanents can easily hit the board. Stop.
Just unban everything or Ban Cavern. I like the stirrings ban idea too. Anything to limit braindead decks slapping ***** out.
Banning an innocuous card like Meddling Mage will only make Modern's problem bigger.
Modern's power level has risen very much during this past 3 years, so much that 4-5 cards would be literally fine in Modern.
Cards like SFM, Twin, Preordain, GSZ, Punishing Fire. They need to test those cards.
If not, Cavern Of Souls and Ancient Stirrings are great paradoxes by being legal and if there are two cards that need banning, are exactly those two. Ancient Stirrings in particular would be fine if Preordain was legal.
Regarding bans, those two would be the ones that would make sense in both Humans and in Lantern/Tron/KCI/Bloom/etc.
Everything else seems like a joke.
I am a long time casual player. My group play "modern plus" and "real cards-ish" meaning that you can proxy something without going silly (in line with wotc policy) and modern is preferred but just don't be silly if you run legacy cards. We have been having some issues getting together lately and I was thinking of playing some 'modern nights' at my local store. In order to so I need to become fully complaint with the rules and the cards.
There are two massive obstacles (as I see it) that I would like to state. Yes I am a novice in comparison, but I would my voice is probably under-represented in this thread. Anyway...
1) I do not like coming across fun cards that are not modern legal, when there doesn't seem to be any power issue. To give an example (and I have been told I am a "Johnny") I really like druids and built a deck around them. Of course I had to include Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury. I would doubt anyone would claim that this card is overpowered (or would even be used) in Modern. Having paid for it, I find it frustrating that I cannot use it. Yes I get it was a commander print, but I really feel that modern should encompass recent MTG cards unless there is a compelling reason not to.
2) The dollar-cost of good land. I feel like I am effectively being railroaded into a mono deck. My entire deck would end up being is around $138. Add some good land in order to be able to fully use the colours, and it is now $408. I honestly find it insulting to want to compete (already at a disadvantage given I am a newcomer) and be expected to lay that out.
Overall I am leaning towards giving up the idea. It really makes the hobby feel "unaccessible" for someone wanting to get into it.
Thanks for listening to my whine...
Play pauper. Modern is very expensive and although the idea was initially to allow players to brew, wotc has completely railroaded the format and taken complete control.
Most games of modern are played out at sorcery speed and tbe result seems predetermined.
If you want to have fun brewing, play a format where you are competing against your opponent and not just their deck, then I would recommend pauper.
The matches ive played in pauper take 10x more thought and leave open a ton of choices and lines of play. Modern was amazing in the beginning, then it got controlled and lost its way.
Play pauper. It ticks all the boxes and makes you feel like you are actually playing magic.
WotC seems to feel that countermagic, small mana spell decks and combo are "unfun". Yet, mindless sorcery tap and slap is very exciting.
Unban everything and spare me the bull*****. WotC is going to continue to print creatures irresponsibly and then follow that up with making creature based decks the most viable strategty.
Im seeing 20+ creatures in a majority of lists. Thats not diversity. Just seems like wotc telling me what i can and cannot play, which is the exact reason i steer clear of standard.
Really look at these matches and tell me why i shouldnt get to cancel a creature. Prove to me why tribal Needs cavern and not just aether vial? Then after your weak, baseless argument (have your cake and eat it too), you will start wailing about blood moon.
My wife can win matches with the human deck and she barely understands how the game works.
I have no problem with people playing tap and slap as long as i can interact with it. But my tools keep getting taken away (*****ty counters, *****ty draw) and creatures keep getting better effects built in than mpst spells and slapped in uncounterable shells.
Ban Cavern or unban everything. Id prefer the latter but this linear tap and slap is getting boring.
Modern seems to be in a pretty bad place imo, which is forcing players like myself and my playgroup into Pauper (legacy being unjustifiably expensive).
With the completely irresponsible printing of WotC over the past few years it has created a standard like environment that just isn't fun. Eldrazi was a monumental mistake, the general power creep of creatures (in general) is just out of control and the mana fixing lands is beyond stupid. You used to have to make key decisions in regards of deck building when it came to a balance (or none at all) of threats, interaction and manabase. Now, hell... you either play the theme WotC created for you (eldrazi) or you just smash a bunch of creatures into a deck, close your eyes and slap em on the table! They even forced a control deck on us (out of sympathy perhaps) by giving us the very WotC "designed" feel of the Teferi / Azcanta combo.
It's very clear that Mr. Rosewater enjoys pleasuring himself in a room filled of MTG Comics. Unfortunately, that enthusiasm doesn't help when it comes to the responsible printing of cards. Remember when everyone thought Jace, TMC was OP? Ha! Now in a world where you can play a 4/4 Trample with a build in Thoughtseize on T2. It is clear that the new sets are now being printed with Modern in mind (since its more popular than standard, mostly because standard is meta trash), and this is very sad.
I don't mind powerful things, I don't mind broken things, but I do mind when these powerful and broken things take absolutely no thought or skill to pull off.
And this is where Modern is for me. Bye! Off to pauper where I am truly competing against my opponent, not just his deck.
Wanna fix it? Unban it all. Things have gotten so out of hand and cards have been created so irresponsibly, the whole modern meta is ruined. Just unban it all and let people play what they like. Warning issued for inappropriate content. --CavalryWolfPack
You can make any claim youd like about data, but its all there and mostly supports my argument.
But facts dont win an argument. Especially when it comes down to a game that fills a lot of voids in people lives.
In my not so humble opinion. MTG needs to stop dumbing the game down and stop restricting playstyles.
The unban everything is an extremely valid argument. You have a format that is out of balance and has been for a long time. The "data" is misconstrued by Pro Tour events that make it seen that decision based decks are viable.
Why even discuss banning things that hinder a deck if we can just unban everything and have a wide open format again?
There is more than one argument to be had on the topic of the modern metagame and its complete lack of balance.
If you dojt want to play againat seething song or birthing pod or splinter twin, then why do have the right to whine about me not wanting to play against Cavern?
I argue thay thr other three currently banned cards i mentioned can at least be interacted with in a multitude of ways... cavern just 1 or 2 and they are slow.
Gimmie "data" (i know it sounds like a scientific thing to say and the way yout argument is percieved means a lot to you) as to why Pod and Twin were jusifiably banned.
Now, once we wade through the pseudo-scientific bull*****, we can have a serious discusion as to why you think a metagame where every other match vs aggro is good for mTG while i think its awful.
Aggro is 50%+ of the format. Considering the plethora of archetypes available that is an overwhelming majority.
Ive been home sick for a week now just watching old PTs and GPs. Lets watch Patrick Chapin vs Shahar Shenhar. Delver vs Burn. Watch how incredible this matchup is. All the little choices and how they matter. Watch a pro make mistakes because... magic is tough.
Then lets watch (and ill leave the eldrazi winter out of it because its jist too easy) PT Ixalan. Duke on Abzan and Asian Guy on Hollow One. Just watch the inevitability of the games. There is minimal interaction and tons on random nonsense.
Now these are pT exampoes and typically top level players prefer interactive decks so the data is scewed (if we use this to understand what dexks are good). The reality is, at a regular GP or FNM you are bound to play every other match against some mindless aggro smash. Thats not fun. Thats not a good environment.
So, without inserting any comments into the wrong oriface (easy to do based on the nature and background of the common mtger) lets understand something.
Aggro has taken over our metagame. How do we stop it. How do we bring back some tempo and combo and midrangey stuff into the format (because tap out control is loving this... supreme/azcanta/teferi)? We take away a land that is not required for the archetype to succeed, but makes the archetype easy to play.
Thank you.
Once you are able to get over yourselves you will see my point.
My style of magic is not an accepted play style by wotc. So i have two choices. Play their way (tap and slap) or play something else.
Take a look at the meta game. Decks running 20+ creatures are running rampant.
You say this very lovely thing about how modern is a format where you can play whatever you like... yet you leave out the most important part: NOT IF YOU WANT TO WIN.
When modern first came into existence this was true. There were tons of viable strategies and crazy unique stuff happening.
Then cavern happened. Then bannings happened. Now we get saddled with another format similar to standard. Wotc will determkne the meta for us. And we will abide. Because most of the mtg community has nothing else to do.
Id like add something else:
Im noy telling you you can stuff 40 creatures in your deck. Im not telling you you cant play that way. Im just telling you that i should be able to cancel your creature before it strips card out of my hand or does more powerful.things than my spells do.
You see you have no choice to make in deck construction. You dont have to find a balance of threats and interaction and draw. Hell, you dont even have to intelligently think about land! You just push creatures into your deck box and play.
Now thinking objectively about what constitutes a healthy competitive environment, woulnt you say thats a little... easy? Do you want to have your cake and eat it to.
Run your creatures. Run your aether vial or birthing pod. Knock yourself out. But you dont get a mama fixing land that makes your creatured uncounterable too.
Rosewater is a tool.
Having legacy level draw spells doesnt have the same effect when you cant draw into cards that end the game single handedly. Without having any experience with the format, how can you give an honest assesment?
Plenty of people show up with Skred Delver and Monarch and Green... and many people show up with brews. The most importanr thing is that the decks have enough air in them to allow players to outplay their opponents.
MTG modern and standard is becomming a lot more like Hearthstone. Rock Paper Scissors deck based games. When you remove ways to interact with people (ie cavern of souls) you take the air out of the game.
I realize most people dont care to have to plan things out, or sculpt a turn or prevent an opponent from executing their strategy. But if MTG keeps going the way of Tap and Slap then players are gonna keep flocking from format to format.
Modern got so popular because of this. Now Pauper will be the new Modern. Then WotC will F that up. Mr. Rosewater and the other kool-aid drinkers need to stop telling people how to play. Stop making the game so that mythic permanents can easily hit the board. Stop.
Just unban everything or Ban Cavern. I like the stirrings ban idea too. Anything to limit braindead decks slapping ***** out.
Agreed
Play pauper. Modern is very expensive and although the idea was initially to allow players to brew, wotc has completely railroaded the format and taken complete control.
Most games of modern are played out at sorcery speed and tbe result seems predetermined.
If you want to have fun brewing, play a format where you are competing against your opponent and not just their deck, then I would recommend pauper.
The matches ive played in pauper take 10x more thought and leave open a ton of choices and lines of play. Modern was amazing in the beginning, then it got controlled and lost its way.
Play pauper. It ticks all the boxes and makes you feel like you are actually playing magic.
Unban everything and spare me the bull*****. WotC is going to continue to print creatures irresponsibly and then follow that up with making creature based decks the most viable strategty.
Im seeing 20+ creatures in a majority of lists. Thats not diversity. Just seems like wotc telling me what i can and cannot play, which is the exact reason i steer clear of standard.
Really look at these matches and tell me why i shouldnt get to cancel a creature. Prove to me why tribal Needs cavern and not just aether vial? Then after your weak, baseless argument (have your cake and eat it too), you will start wailing about blood moon.
My wife can win matches with the human deck and she barely understands how the game works.
I have no problem with people playing tap and slap as long as i can interact with it. But my tools keep getting taken away (*****ty counters, *****ty draw) and creatures keep getting better effects built in than mpst spells and slapped in uncounterable shells.
Ban Cavern or unban everything. Id prefer the latter but this linear tap and slap is getting boring.
With the completely irresponsible printing of WotC over the past few years it has created a standard like environment that just isn't fun. Eldrazi was a monumental mistake, the general power creep of creatures (in general) is just out of control and the mana fixing lands is beyond stupid. You used to have to make key decisions in regards of deck building when it came to a balance (or none at all) of threats, interaction and manabase. Now, hell... you either play the theme WotC created for you (eldrazi) or you just smash a bunch of creatures into a deck, close your eyes and slap em on the table! They even forced a control deck on us (out of sympathy perhaps) by giving us the very WotC "designed" feel of the Teferi / Azcanta combo.
It's very clear that Mr. Rosewater enjoys pleasuring himself in a room filled of MTG Comics. Unfortunately, that enthusiasm doesn't help when it comes to the responsible printing of cards. Remember when everyone thought Jace, TMC was OP? Ha! Now in a world where you can play a 4/4 Trample with a build in Thoughtseize on T2. It is clear that the new sets are now being printed with Modern in mind (since its more popular than standard, mostly because standard is meta trash), and this is very sad.
I don't mind powerful things, I don't mind broken things, but I do mind when these powerful and broken things take absolutely no thought or skill to pull off.
And this is where Modern is for me. Bye! Off to pauper where I am truly competing against my opponent, not just his deck.
Wanna fix it? Unban it all. Things have gotten so out of hand and cards have been created so irresponsibly, the whole modern meta is ruined. Just unban it all and let people play what they like.
Warning issued for inappropriate content. --CavalryWolfPack