4) I don't play either. Fatal Push is completely unnecessary in a bridge deck
That's wrong, I can see bridge decks play Path to Exile or Lightning Bolt, so it's no different about Fatal Push. Before you get to lock the opponent down, according to the meta you expect, it can be very valuable, maybe necessary, to play some removal spells. Affinity and Infect are 2 decks that can ignore Bridge.
The 0 power affinity creatures usually don't kill before you have assembled some thopters. Affinity is also not very popular these days and has mostly been replaced by Hardened Scales.
In my experience it's a terrible plan to try and fight Infect with a low amount of spot removal spells, since you are mostly playing right into their protection spells. I don't even bother to board in Decays or Trophies, as I would rather not give them a use for their protection spells. Discard is a lot better in that matchup, since you can strip them of whatever they are missing without giving them a lot of ways to prevent that.
5) Thoughtseize. Collective Brutality is a nice SB card against Burn and Infect, but often underperforms against most other decks, IMO.
Brutality has been Bridge's best friend for years now, it's not that easy to relegate it to the SB. Along with TS, they actually don't overlap, so it seems irrelevant to oppose them in the 1st place.
Most lantern players don't play CB. My lists still closely resembles the lantern lists and I have tested CB a lot, when I was still playing that deck. It constantly underperformed against a wide variety of decks. It was a mainstay before the banning of Gitaxian Probe, when Infect was hugely popular, but in the current meta I don't really see the necessity to run it in the MB, especially not over IOK and Thoughtseize.
I see the argument that it can discard Swords, but so can Faithless Looting, which has completely convinced me.
i have to disagree with this.
Collective Brutality allows you to drop from 3 cards in hand to zero in a single turn, while netting you life with a chance of killing a creature that can get under bridge. Battle/Push are needed because sometimes you just want have the lock you want/need. Saying that your deck doesnt need them is quite naive. Since Magic is largely a game of variance you sometimes have to have those interaction cards, which is why Whir Prison runs both EE and Pyrite Spellbomb, Storm runs Abrade/Repeal, and KCI ran EE and Spine of Ish SaH.
I cut back on the clunky cards such as cloister and crucible.
Cloister is by far the least clunky piece of the deck, and by far one of the most important pieces. Allows you stay always stay under bridge, its card advantage, and it lets you save spells for when you need them. i think cutting it is a huge mistake.
I had originally played Knightfall when Retreat came out and I had so much fun with it, but put it down in favor of the prison decks in the format. For the past 2 weeks or so, I put the deck back together and been rolling people pretty consistently with it.
Thoughts/Things that seem to go against the status quo:
-I cut the combo entirely and built the deck more towards just out-tempo'ing your opponent. Without the Reatreat, I no longer feel the need to run a 4 color manabase and can run more interactive lands in its place. Being able to tutor up Ghost Quarter / Tectonic Edge with Knight of the Reliquary helps so many matchups (from Infect and Affinity to Control and Tron) and with Ramunap Excavator, it is easy to abuse.
-I dropped the Coursers, as while they were great against fair decks, they were almost useless against the larger field of unfair, hyper-linear decks. In its place, i was able to put Thalia, Heretic Cathar and Ramunap Excavator in the main. Thalia is an all star as she is backbreaking to aggressive creature decks as it has both first strike and disables haste/blockers while also making control and Tron misstep. Ramunap Excavator isnt the best, but it excels in the long, grindy games. Being able to recur utility likes like Ghost Quarter or Horizon Canopy is nuts. Even bringing back lands to get clues off Tireless Tracker goes a long way.
-Currently running a full playset of Spell Queller, but im not sure thats the right call. I think that 3 is the optimal number, but felt like i needed the additional flying creature. Other thoughts were Clique and Aven Mindcensor, but neither felt that great mainboard.
-Lavinia, Azorius Renegade is a force to be reckoned with. I had two in the main originally, but felt like that was excessive. Trying only one in the sideboard, but im not sure thats the right call. I think having one in the main is where you should be. Disrupting Terminus, Hollow One, Living End, Search for Tomorrow, Rift Bolt, any Tron payoff, or even spells they cast when they kill your Spell Queller is huge.
-With being as bit of a toolbox deck, i think it might be worth checking dropping a path and a creature and adding in 2 Chord of Calling to help find the one ofs that deck runs.
I'm actually running a 3 of both Collective Brutality and Battle at the Bridge in the main. What would you recommend to fill the 3 slots you mentioned that are not The 4th foundry?
First time posting here, so please forgive the lack of formatting. Also, it's late, I'm tired, and unable to sleep, so sorry for any typos/rants
I've spent the last couple years playing Prison decks, and the entirety of 2018 playing exclusively Whir of Invention builds of every variety. I played Thopter Sword, Thopter Sword in a lantern shell, actual lantern, UR Prison when Michael Coyle (sussurrus_mtg) originally started spiking every event he participated in, jumped on Grixis before the rest of the crew, and then played 4c Whir. I've been talking with DustyCrumbs almost all year long about the evaluations of cards, builds, and trying to make the best deck to fit my play style.
I 100% believe that, while sharing multiple core cards, all these decks are vastly different and operate on completely different axis than each other. I also believe that blending two lists together will makes the deck weaker than the parent decks. For instance, playing copies of Thopter/Sword combo in 4c Whir makes the deck less effective of the absolute lock the deck is strives for. On the other hand, playing too many lock pieces (ie. The crucible lock, t.west chains) in ThopterSword weakens in by not having the main focus be the combo.
This being said, I'm trying to find the EXACT line of where too many prison aspects make the Thopter Sword deck too dilluted. It's a combo deck first and foremost. This is my current list:
Artifact (30)
4x Mishra's bauble
3x chalice of the void
4x Mox opal
2x welding jar
1x Tormod's crypt
1x engineered explosives
1x gravedigger's cage
2x Sorcerous spyglass
1x damping sphere
2x sword of the meek
3x thopter foundry
1x time sieve
3x ensnaring bridge
1x bottled cloister
1x witchbane orb
Spells(10)
3x collective brutality
3x Battle at the bridge
4x whir of invention
Lands (20)
4x glimmervoid
4x spire of industry
4x darkslick shores
3x botanical sanctum
3x island
1x watery grave (probably should be river of tears)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Inventors fair
Sideboard
1x Chalice of the void
1x sun Droplet
1x Torpor orb
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Spellskite
2x abrupt decay
1x Ghirapur aether grid
1x Liliana of the Veil
3x Unmoored Ego
2x tezzeret agent of bolas
1. While this strays from the combo farther than I'd like it too, I think Chalice is just too good in the meta right now, at the cost of not having the consistency cantrips provide. When chalice falls out of favor again, they'd be replaced with serum visions.
2. Witchbane Orb in the mainboard, is probably an unnecessary inclusion and once again strays from the combo a bit. I like to have the option available, as I like having a well rounded toolbox.
3. I'm not entirely sold on EE in the list, but it's a nice catch all. I'm constantly switching back and forth on its inclusion over the 4th Foundry.
4. I'm running all the rainbow lands because Blood Moon is at such a low, and avoiding the fetch/shock manabase allows me to control my life loss a bit more. Also, running the full set of both rainbow lands and opals allows me to have access to Aether Grid.
5. I think Aether Grid is probably the most important sideboard card to have access to. It cleanly answers creatures/planeswalkers, and provides a quick win through Rest in Peace/Leyline of the Void/Stony Silence.
6. I'm hype on battle at the bridge. I find it's often the "soft lock" that puts you too far outside of the range that decks can reasonably deal with.
7. This deck needs an "Oops I win" button, and while I'm not sure Time Sieve is the best card for the slot, it's the easiest to work with.
8. I'm not big on Sai, Master Thopterist as I feel the post-sideboard 60 are filled with too many Colored spells.
9. Unmoored Ego is -fine- not good, not bad. It's just another catch all.
10. Sun Droplet us a bit excessive with Battles, fair, and the combo, but I don't own a 2nd Liliana of the Veil so it is what it is. Literally just tossed in another card.
11. Defense Grid is a trap. Seems good in theory but in practice always seems to miss it's mark.
Let me know what you think. Any and all feedback is appreciated. Let me know if you have any ideas to help find the line between combo/prison or if I'm completely off base.
I was thinking of putting Sweltering Sun in the main, but realized it would feel awful to cast it into a board full of Bloodghasts, Prized Amalgams, and or Flamewake Phoenix, I feel as though the exile clause is way to relevant to substitute Anger of the Gods out for a subpar card.
Nevermore is an all star card. Naming their sideboard cards with it feels great 100% of the time
(So I am really new to this forum, and dont know how to format correctly, sorry)
Ive been playing Sun and Moon for approximately a year and a half, and have had some amount of success with it, including a top 16 finish in a smaller sized SCG Classic of approximately 200 players. Ive been loving the deck since i first picked it up, but I have been finding that meta of the last few months have been unfriendly to the deck, and as such kind, of pushed me away from the deck.
Last weekend I played in a few side events of GP DC and ended up going 10-6 for the weekend with it. My only loses being 2x B/R Hollow One, 2x Tron, Humans, and Boggles. Wins were Counters Company, Burn, 2x Jeskai Control, Affinity, GW Valuetown, Scapeshift, Jund Traverse Shadow, Eldrazi D&T, Humans. Humans is kind of annoying since a super disruptive hand can easily sway the game their way. Boggles really came down to if i had an early enough t1 Chalice of the Void or not. It seems that Hollow One pretty much down to the variance of Burning Inquiry. Then Tron went as most Tron matchups do.
Im looking on input on how do we combat these pesky matchups. What has everyone here been trying out?
here is my decklist:
Land (24)
4x Arid Mesa
1x Clifftop Retreat
2x Field of Ruin
1x Mountain
9x Plains
1x Rugged Prairie
2x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Triumph
Instant (5)
2x Abrade
3x Lightning Helix
Creature (5)
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Simian Spirit Guide
Planeswalker (10)
1x Ajani Vengeant
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Gideon Jura
1x Gideon of the Trials
4x Nahiri, the Harbinger
Sorcery (7)
3x Anger of the Gods
1x Day of Judgment
1x Declaration in Stone
2x Wrath of God
Enchantment (5)
4x Blood Moon
1x Journey to Nowhere
I diversified my sweepers and spot removal in order to avoid being locked out my Meddling Mage, as well as being able to hit a wider range of things. I feel as though the sideboard gives me plenty of outs towards almost every deck in the meta, with the exception of Tron (its such a bad matchup that i figured I would just bite the bullet on this one and try to stock up on beating the rest of them.) Im not sold on the Journey to Nowhere, almost favoring another Declaration in Stone as an early answer to punish the decks that play a lot of the same creatures at once, but the drawback of providing clues is pretty significant.
i have to disagree with this.
Collective Brutality allows you to drop from 3 cards in hand to zero in a single turn, while netting you life with a chance of killing a creature that can get under bridge. Battle/Push are needed because sometimes you just want have the lock you want/need. Saying that your deck doesnt need them is quite naive. Since Magic is largely a game of variance you sometimes have to have those interaction cards, which is why Whir Prison runs both EE and Pyrite Spellbomb, Storm runs Abrade/Repeal, and KCI ran EE and Spine of Ish SaH.
Cloister is by far the least clunky piece of the deck, and by far one of the most important pieces. Allows you stay always stay under bridge, its card advantage, and it lets you save spells for when you need them. i think cutting it is a huge mistake.
Creatures (30)
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Remorseful Cleric
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sefless Spirit
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Spell Queller
2 Knight of Autumn
2 Deputy of Detention
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Ramunap Excavator
Instant (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
Land (22)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Gavony Township
Sideboard (15)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Lavinia, Azorius Renegade
2x Negate
2x Stony Silence
1x Knight of Autumn
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Worship
I had originally played Knightfall when Retreat came out and I had so much fun with it, but put it down in favor of the prison decks in the format. For the past 2 weeks or so, I put the deck back together and been rolling people pretty consistently with it.
Thoughts/Things that seem to go against the status quo:
-I cut the combo entirely and built the deck more towards just out-tempo'ing your opponent. Without the Reatreat, I no longer feel the need to run a 4 color manabase and can run more interactive lands in its place. Being able to tutor up Ghost Quarter / Tectonic Edge with Knight of the Reliquary helps so many matchups (from Infect and Affinity to Control and Tron) and with Ramunap Excavator, it is easy to abuse.
-I dropped the Coursers, as while they were great against fair decks, they were almost useless against the larger field of unfair, hyper-linear decks. In its place, i was able to put Thalia, Heretic Cathar and Ramunap Excavator in the main. Thalia is an all star as she is backbreaking to aggressive creature decks as it has both first strike and disables haste/blockers while also making control and Tron misstep. Ramunap Excavator isnt the best, but it excels in the long, grindy games. Being able to recur utility likes like Ghost Quarter or Horizon Canopy is nuts. Even bringing back lands to get clues off Tireless Tracker goes a long way.
-Currently running a full playset of Spell Queller, but im not sure thats the right call. I think that 3 is the optimal number, but felt like i needed the additional flying creature. Other thoughts were Clique and Aven Mindcensor, but neither felt that great mainboard.
-Lavinia, Azorius Renegade is a force to be reckoned with. I had two in the main originally, but felt like that was excessive. Trying only one in the sideboard, but im not sure thats the right call. I think having one in the main is where you should be. Disrupting Terminus, Hollow One, Living End, Search for Tomorrow, Rift Bolt, any Tron payoff, or even spells they cast when they kill your Spell Queller is huge.
-With being as bit of a toolbox deck, i think it might be worth checking dropping a path and a creature and adding in 2 Chord of Calling to help find the one ofs that deck runs.
I've spent the last couple years playing Prison decks, and the entirety of 2018 playing exclusively Whir of Invention builds of every variety. I played Thopter Sword, Thopter Sword in a lantern shell, actual lantern, UR Prison when Michael Coyle (sussurrus_mtg) originally started spiking every event he participated in, jumped on Grixis before the rest of the crew, and then played 4c Whir. I've been talking with DustyCrumbs almost all year long about the evaluations of cards, builds, and trying to make the best deck to fit my play style.
I 100% believe that, while sharing multiple core cards, all these decks are vastly different and operate on completely different axis than each other. I also believe that blending two lists together will makes the deck weaker than the parent decks. For instance, playing copies of Thopter/Sword combo in 4c Whir makes the deck less effective of the absolute lock the deck is strives for. On the other hand, playing too many lock pieces (ie. The crucible lock, t.west chains) in ThopterSword weakens in by not having the main focus be the combo.
This being said, I'm trying to find the EXACT line of where too many prison aspects make the Thopter Sword deck too dilluted. It's a combo deck first and foremost. This is my current list:
Artifact (30)
4x Mishra's bauble
3x chalice of the void
4x Mox opal
2x welding jar
1x Tormod's crypt
1x engineered explosives
1x gravedigger's cage
2x Sorcerous spyglass
1x damping sphere
2x sword of the meek
3x thopter foundry
1x time sieve
3x ensnaring bridge
1x bottled cloister
1x witchbane orb
Spells(10)
3x collective brutality
3x Battle at the bridge
4x whir of invention
Lands (20)
4x glimmervoid
4x spire of industry
4x darkslick shores
3x botanical sanctum
3x island
1x watery grave (probably should be river of tears)
1x Academy Ruins
1x Inventors fair
Sideboard
1x Chalice of the void
1x sun Droplet
1x Torpor orb
1x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Spellskite
2x abrupt decay
1x Ghirapur aether grid
1x Liliana of the Veil
3x Unmoored Ego
2x tezzeret agent of bolas
1. While this strays from the combo farther than I'd like it too, I think Chalice is just too good in the meta right now, at the cost of not having the consistency cantrips provide. When chalice falls out of favor again, they'd be replaced with serum visions.
2. Witchbane Orb in the mainboard, is probably an unnecessary inclusion and once again strays from the combo a bit. I like to have the option available, as I like having a well rounded toolbox.
3. I'm not entirely sold on EE in the list, but it's a nice catch all. I'm constantly switching back and forth on its inclusion over the 4th Foundry.
4. I'm running all the rainbow lands because Blood Moon is at such a low, and avoiding the fetch/shock manabase allows me to control my life loss a bit more. Also, running the full set of both rainbow lands and opals allows me to have access to Aether Grid.
5. I think Aether Grid is probably the most important sideboard card to have access to. It cleanly answers creatures/planeswalkers, and provides a quick win through Rest in Peace/Leyline of the Void/Stony Silence.
6. I'm hype on battle at the bridge. I find it's often the "soft lock" that puts you too far outside of the range that decks can reasonably deal with.
7. This deck needs an "Oops I win" button, and while I'm not sure Time Sieve is the best card for the slot, it's the easiest to work with.
8. I'm not big on Sai, Master Thopterist as I feel the post-sideboard 60 are filled with too many Colored spells.
9. Unmoored Ego is -fine- not good, not bad. It's just another catch all.
10. Sun Droplet us a bit excessive with Battles, fair, and the combo, but I don't own a 2nd Liliana of the Veil so it is what it is. Literally just tossed in another card.
11. Defense Grid is a trap. Seems good in theory but in practice always seems to miss it's mark.
Let me know what you think. Any and all feedback is appreciated. Let me know if you have any ideas to help find the line between combo/prison or if I'm completely off base.
Nevermore is an all star card. Naming their sideboard cards with it feels great 100% of the time
Ive been playing Sun and Moon for approximately a year and a half, and have had some amount of success with it, including a top 16 finish in a smaller sized SCG Classic of approximately 200 players. Ive been loving the deck since i first picked it up, but I have been finding that meta of the last few months have been unfriendly to the deck, and as such kind, of pushed me away from the deck.
Last weekend I played in a few side events of GP DC and ended up going 10-6 for the weekend with it. My only loses being 2x B/R Hollow One, 2x Tron, Humans, and Boggles. Wins were Counters Company, Burn, 2x Jeskai Control, Affinity, GW Valuetown, Scapeshift, Jund Traverse Shadow, Eldrazi D&T, Humans. Humans is kind of annoying since a super disruptive hand can easily sway the game their way. Boggles really came down to if i had an early enough t1 Chalice of the Void or not. It seems that Hollow One pretty much down to the variance of Burning Inquiry. Then Tron went as most Tron matchups do.
Im looking on input on how do we combat these pesky matchups. What has everyone here been trying out?
here is my decklist:
Land (24)
4x Arid Mesa
1x Clifftop Retreat
2x Field of Ruin
1x Mountain
9x Plains
1x Rugged Prairie
2x Sacred Foundry
4x Temple of Triumph
Instant (5)
2x Abrade
3x Lightning Helix
Creature (5)
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Simian Spirit Guide
Planeswalker (10)
1x Ajani Vengeant
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Gideon Jura
1x Gideon of the Trials
4x Nahiri, the Harbinger
Sorcery (7)
3x Anger of the Gods
1x Day of Judgment
1x Declaration in Stone
2x Wrath of God
Enchantment (5)
4x Blood Moon
1x Journey to Nowhere
Artifact (4)
4x Chalice of the Void
Sideboard (15)
1x Damping Sphere
2x Defense Grid
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Nevermore
2x Rest in Peace
1x Runed Halo
1x Settle the Wreckage
2x Stony Silence
1x Sweltering Suns
1x Torpor Orb
I diversified my sweepers and spot removal in order to avoid being locked out my Meddling Mage, as well as being able to hit a wider range of things. I feel as though the sideboard gives me plenty of outs towards almost every deck in the meta, with the exception of Tron (its such a bad matchup that i figured I would just bite the bullet on this one and try to stock up on beating the rest of them.) Im not sold on the Journey to Nowhere, almost favoring another Declaration in Stone as an early answer to punish the decks that play a lot of the same creatures at once, but the drawback of providing clues is pretty significant.
Thoughts?