Honestly I love cards that create alternate win conditions, but I love that they all have other requirements, such as filibuster counters and X life at your upkeep. A card that straight wins would just be too much.
Again, you and others seem to think that I’m arguing for Boros being the best colors in Magic. I’m not, they’re not the best by far, and really they’re probably the worst. What I’m saying is that making it’s strongest assets culturally unacceptable is the reason why we all say it sucks, when it doesn’t have to if we are more accepting of meaner strategy.
So recently I've been a rut of what to build next. I have an actual deck and I flop through many other decks never seeming to be happy. I have a very Controlish Damia deck and I want something different in comparison. So I would like to build a tribal deck. And I thought GOBLINS!
Now all this has caused some discussion with a friend of mine who is the best Goblin to use a general. And with that brings to the point. Which Wort is a better General? Or is it something of Mono Red?
Or do you think a Elf or Merfolk Tribal is better?
Okay so I see tons of input here, but I have to give my two cents.
First off, background:
I’m a huge goblin fan!! I currently run two goblin-themed EDH decks, Krenko and Wort, Boggart Auntie. I also run a pauper goblin deck, for a long time I ran a kitchen-table 60 card goblin deck, and I have plans currently for a Wort the Raidmother deck!
My input is as follows:
IF you want to run tribal goblins, play Krenko. He’s ridiculously fast and fun, and flinging tons of Goblins at people is pure delight. I beat a 4 man table at SCGCon on turn 5 with Krenko against Bennie Smith, which was quite entertaining.
Now, if you are looking beyond pure tribal, I would recommend Wort, Boggart Auntie or Wort the Raidmother.
My Auntie deck started off as goblin combo (which was AWESOME), using tutors to grab Kiki and a combo piece or Krenko and an untapper to then combo off and win, which was a fun deck! The problem with that, however, was that to really run it smoothly I had to incorporate tons of tutors into the deck, which was just too expensive. SO... now it’s Wort Aristocrats! This is now tons of fun, but it requires being slightly less tribal than you seem to want to be (can you say Conspiracy?). The problem with running Wort as straight tribal is that you can only get one goblin per turn. And yes, you do get some other really fantastic goblins like Earwig Squad, but that’s honestly not enough to make her work. Auntie is fun, but as straight goblin tribal she doesn’t have the speed that Krenko does, and returning one goblin per turn is honestly just not powerful enough on its own to balance out the speed drop. Krenko, on the other hand, is a powerhouse that lets you always have access to the most powerful goblin in magic.
Raidmother is tons of fun (from my build i’m Looking at), but it also needs some non-goblin creatures if you really want to take advantage of having green by copying ramp spells and the like. It’s a primarily goblin with other green tokens thrown in deck. It does allow you doubling season and parallel lives, which is huge, but honestly it still won’t be as fast as Krenko, even once it gets as explosive.
As for Ib, he’s meh. I’ve almost taken him out of Krenko.
Kiki-Jiki is ridiculous, but he again won’t be straight tribal, because Kiki wins by combos, and he does that best with Combat Celebrant or Zealous Conscripts, neither of which fits your goal for goblin tribal. Also, you can’t tutor for them in mono red.
All in all, Krenko is your best bet, you get access to all the best goblins still, and he’s the most explosive.
The hippo got it right, in a non-cEDH setting Boros is capable of competing, albeit with a lot more hoops to jump through than say Golgari colored decks. However, its really the only dual color that has no legs whatsoever in cEDH, where Commanders need a function and not just being an excuse for a color identity (the partners perform this better anyway).
I also agree that EDHREC popularity is also a poor judge of competitiveness. Circu, Dimir Lobotomist is a solid Dramatic Scepter wincon with a playstyle like lantern control for shutting of the same wincons run in a lot of decks, just by exiling it from one. Despite this he sits under 200 decks built and thats largely due to how linear and dull he is for casual pods, eating (rightly) a lot of focus for just being annoying.
But the "Boros sucks" attitude isn't just an issue in cEDH, where its an obvious fact that Boros sucks, but in less competitive metas as well, which is something you and Dirk seem to be missing. There are a lot of people out there who think that its pointless to run even in relaxed playgroups. Beyond mld helping in 75% metas, even pretty casual playgroups I've seen where a Boros deck wouldn't even need mld to compete shy away form the color combo because "it sucks." That's a larger culture problem.
This is exactly my point. My addendum to that is that makind land control more acceptable makes Boros stronger and may help with that culture problem.
I say that it partly is a culture problem. I have a low to the ground Iroas deck that runs a lot of hate bears and tries to lock in advantage with mld. I played it online Sunday, and popped a Ravages of War when I had a dude with an equipped sword of the animist out (cleary not just randomly firing it off) and when the Rashimi player was about to start going off (losing his lands stopped him). This guy was running your standard Rashimi bad guy combo deck looping seasons past and tutors with a wall of counters for backup. He whined like a child about mld as if sitting behind a wall of counters and a busted commander to combo off is somehow better. When I finally had him for lethal he decided to time out like a *****.
Look, I run mld in a few decks where it's good. I don't cast it willy nilly. I use it to lock in a winning gamestate, or at least one where I am quite likely to win, typically when I'm going to be able to quickly rebuild my Mana or still have a Mana base after it hits. This particular game went another 7 turns because I had to fire it off a bit early to prevent him from going off before I had a board that could kill him quickly, and then he got lucky and drew into a few lands that let him answer a few threats and drag it out.
The thing is, there were two other players, a group hug guy and another guy. Group hug guy gg'd and quit right away, the other guy waited a few turns hoping to draw more land before gg'ing. In my experience online, it's the entitled netdeckers that throw a fit because they got beat by a strategy they weren't expecting, while the players running more casual decks just treat it like you comboed. I told the crybaby that mld is the only way for an aggro Boros decks to keep up by making the game play on it's terms, and he replied "that's why nobody plays Boros in edh". It's an acknowledgement that this pov kneecaps the color combination by denying it one of it's most powerful tools.
I'm not saying you shouldn't me mad when someone just pops a geddon randomly and ruins the game, or just sticks every mld card ever printed in a deck and thinks it will win. Misplayed mld is bad. So are misplayed wrath's, or idiots who think sticking 30 counterspells in a deck will help them win without bothering to figure out what they should actually counter. Neither is MLD isn't going to redeem Boros and make it the hot new color combo, there are more issues it needs to deal with ranging from being bad at ramp and draw and having no dominant commanders. But greater acceptance of well played mld would make the color combo more viable, and specifically open up more aggressive strategies that can take advantage of keeping land counts low. It could also open up an artifact based archetype that relies on rocks and crucible to further break symmetry. Mostly, it's just irrational to hate on mld while accepting insta win combos, counterspell walls, and other such things.
Sorry, I don’t know how to combine this response with my last one so just double posting - this is exactly my point.
I am NOT arguing that Boros is the best color combo around. In fact, I would agree that it is probably the worst color combo. But what I think isn’t right is that we as a community hate on the MLD that, as he said, keeps the game running at the level of the Boros deck, and then try to make it out as so far inferior that it shouldn’t be played. If we accept every other strategy, we should accept MLD before we throw Boros into the trash.
Great discussion guys! I’m very interested by your comments and thoughts on this. (And I will say, I stated my opinions stronger than They are for the sake of discussion, because it’s a thought I’ve had for a while and wanted input on).
On to the good stuff!
So I believe that wheel effects are certainly card advantage. If I have 2 cards, wheel, and am at 7, that’s drawn 7 cards. Even if I’m giving my opponents cards, that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
As far as commanders go, I don’t think it’s right to argue that because Red/White commanders are combat-based, those commanders are bad. That was kind of my point - if MLD was more acceptable, I think you can slow the rest of the table enough to make combat more effective.
Also, Limited Resources is totally legit in a format that is so inundated with enchantment removal and mana rocks, as well as ramp spells! Ramp spells would still put lands onto the battlefield, mana rocks would still work, and ALL of the hate from the rest of the table would be pointed at Limited Resources. And honestly, 5 lands apiece is plenty to deal with an enchantment.
But see, I’m not arguing to pair those FOR MLD. I’m arguing that Boros should use MLD as a tool to keep up with other colors. Run more mana rocks, mix MLD and Board Wipes to allow you to keep the board moving slower. I’m saying run your Boros soldiers deck (or whatever) and use the lower average cmc of your creatures, the larger percentage of mana rocks you are playing, and the access to MLD to slow everyone else down to the rate that you are moving at. The issue is that we as a community have made MLD into a bad word. People freak out when an Armageddon drops. My point isn’t that Boros is the best color combo or anything like that, but that people tend to make it completely unplayable because the community makes certain strategies unplayable if you want to be accepted, and that is what I believe is wrong. MLD should be a legitimate strategy to keep pace with other colors. Or even beyond MLD, things such as Winter Orb and Rule of Law, which slow people down to the Boros rate but then everyone hates the person who dropped it.
So I am always seeing posts, comments, articles, etc about why Boros is the trashiest of trash, and I’m here to promote the unpopular opinion that that mindset is not fact, but rather a deep-seated culture problem in the EDH community. The truth of the matter is that Boros has some very pronounced advantages that the EDH community does not want to embrace.
Let me explain.
Mass Land Destruction and mana denial are the most hated and looked down upon part of commander, the community as a whole pushes against MLD and then complains about Boros being weak, and I don’t believe that that is a fair assessment. Yes, I will freely admit that Boros is lacking in card draw, but it isn’t completely missing. For instance, Boros players can always rely upon cards such as Wheel of Fortune and Reforge the Soul, looting abilities Tormenting Voice, and creatures with wheel abilities such as Dragon Mage. This is one of the biggest arguments against Boros, but I have to say that I find it somewhat lacking. Yes, a majority of Boros draw is wheeling or looting, but that is totally viable.
To move forward to my main point, Mass Land Destruction and mana denial, I would like to propose something. We, as the EDH community, need to be willing to accept MLD if we want Boros to be “viable”.
For instance, as a Boros player, I would run Blood MoonArmageddon, Ravages of War, Ruination, and so on. I would also include a larger number of mana rocks than usual. This would then mean that I *am* keeping up with the table as a Boros player by slowing down the rest of the table. This, unfortunately, goes against the “etiquette” of EDH that has pushed Boros off the table. Really, there are two cards on the banlist, Balance and Limited Resources that are banned ENTIRELY because of this prejudice! We allow board wipes, artifact wipes, cards that make everyone sacrifice things, things that restrict play, but when a card does that with mana, it gets banned. I agree that both of those cards are powerful, but they aren’t bannable outside of prejudice.
All of that said, I very much want to hear your opinions on this topic. I truly believe that if we, as a community, make MLD more acceptable then Boros can be fully capable of keeping up with the table.
Love this idea. I would also recommend adding the cluestone and keyrune for each guild, and also give them all darksteel ingot, mind stone, thran dynamo and Hedron Archive.
Aggro/weenie strategies are bad in multiplayer EDH. Everyone has 40 Life and in most cases there are 3 other players out there.
That’s not really true. Krenko is super powerful, Rhys the Redeemed is super powerful, the new Emmara is super strong... token/weenie/aggro decks can be very good when done right. Boris has some very good weenie cards, too, like anointed procession and the new Tajic. It’s all a matter of building the deck right.
Sphinx Tribal! Azor, the Lawbringer makes a fun commander. Run control and draw, use Unesh and the other fun sphinxes. There’s actually good synergy there and it’s loads of fun.
I would say people need to own their decks. By that I mean that if someone wants to kill with creature damage, then they should own that and be aggressive. If they go for combo, add more tutor and draw to aggressively find that.
And honestly, add more removal. That sounds weird, but knowing that my friend runs 14 removal spells means I’m trying to win faster so I don’t risk losing my threats. I have to act ASAP because my threat could get removed if I Durdle or am afraid of attacking.
Beyond that, I recommend playing Krenko. Games will end real fast.
Be mean and play Krenko, Mob Boss. He’s fantastic. Goblin tribal aggro. My Krenko deck wiped a table of 4 vs. Bennie Smith on turn 5 at the first SCGCon, Without even being fully tuned.
Okay so I see tons of input here, but I have to give my two cents.
First off, background:
I’m a huge goblin fan!! I currently run two goblin-themed EDH decks, Krenko and Wort, Boggart Auntie. I also run a pauper goblin deck, for a long time I ran a kitchen-table 60 card goblin deck, and I have plans currently for a Wort the Raidmother deck!
My input is as follows:
IF you want to run tribal goblins, play Krenko. He’s ridiculously fast and fun, and flinging tons of Goblins at people is pure delight. I beat a 4 man table at SCGCon on turn 5 with Krenko against Bennie Smith, which was quite entertaining.
Now, if you are looking beyond pure tribal, I would recommend Wort, Boggart Auntie or Wort the Raidmother.
My Auntie deck started off as goblin combo (which was AWESOME), using tutors to grab Kiki and a combo piece or Krenko and an untapper to then combo off and win, which was a fun deck! The problem with that, however, was that to really run it smoothly I had to incorporate tons of tutors into the deck, which was just too expensive. SO... now it’s Wort Aristocrats! This is now tons of fun, but it requires being slightly less tribal than you seem to want to be (can you say Conspiracy?). The problem with running Wort as straight tribal is that you can only get one goblin per turn. And yes, you do get some other really fantastic goblins like Earwig Squad, but that’s honestly not enough to make her work. Auntie is fun, but as straight goblin tribal she doesn’t have the speed that Krenko does, and returning one goblin per turn is honestly just not powerful enough on its own to balance out the speed drop. Krenko, on the other hand, is a powerhouse that lets you always have access to the most powerful goblin in magic.
Raidmother is tons of fun (from my build i’m Looking at), but it also needs some non-goblin creatures if you really want to take advantage of having green by copying ramp spells and the like. It’s a primarily goblin with other green tokens thrown in deck. It does allow you doubling season and parallel lives, which is huge, but honestly it still won’t be as fast as Krenko, even once it gets as explosive.
As for Ib, he’s meh. I’ve almost taken him out of Krenko.
Kiki-Jiki is ridiculous, but he again won’t be straight tribal, because Kiki wins by combos, and he does that best with Combat Celebrant or Zealous Conscripts, neither of which fits your goal for goblin tribal. Also, you can’t tutor for them in mono red.
All in all, Krenko is your best bet, you get access to all the best goblins still, and he’s the most explosive.
This is exactly my point. My addendum to that is that makind land control more acceptable makes Boros stronger and may help with that culture problem.
Sorry, I don’t know how to combine this response with my last one so just double posting - this is exactly my point.
I am NOT arguing that Boros is the best color combo around. In fact, I would agree that it is probably the worst color combo. But what I think isn’t right is that we as a community hate on the MLD that, as he said, keeps the game running at the level of the Boros deck, and then try to make it out as so far inferior that it shouldn’t be played. If we accept every other strategy, we should accept MLD before we throw Boros into the trash.
On to the good stuff!
So I believe that wheel effects are certainly card advantage. If I have 2 cards, wheel, and am at 7, that’s drawn 7 cards. Even if I’m giving my opponents cards, that isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
As far as commanders go, I don’t think it’s right to argue that because Red/White commanders are combat-based, those commanders are bad. That was kind of my point - if MLD was more acceptable, I think you can slow the rest of the table enough to make combat more effective.
Also, Limited Resources is totally legit in a format that is so inundated with enchantment removal and mana rocks, as well as ramp spells! Ramp spells would still put lands onto the battlefield, mana rocks would still work, and ALL of the hate from the rest of the table would be pointed at Limited Resources. And honestly, 5 lands apiece is plenty to deal with an enchantment.
Let me explain.
Mass Land Destruction and mana denial are the most hated and looked down upon part of commander, the community as a whole pushes against MLD and then complains about Boros being weak, and I don’t believe that that is a fair assessment. Yes, I will freely admit that Boros is lacking in card draw, but it isn’t completely missing. For instance, Boros players can always rely upon cards such as Wheel of Fortune and Reforge the Soul, looting abilities Tormenting Voice, and creatures with wheel abilities such as Dragon Mage. This is one of the biggest arguments against Boros, but I have to say that I find it somewhat lacking. Yes, a majority of Boros draw is wheeling or looting, but that is totally viable.
To move forward to my main point, Mass Land Destruction and mana denial, I would like to propose something. We, as the EDH community, need to be willing to accept MLD if we want Boros to be “viable”.
For instance, as a Boros player, I would run Blood Moon Armageddon, Ravages of War, Ruination, and so on. I would also include a larger number of mana rocks than usual. This would then mean that I *am* keeping up with the table as a Boros player by slowing down the rest of the table. This, unfortunately, goes against the “etiquette” of EDH that has pushed Boros off the table. Really, there are two cards on the banlist, Balance and Limited Resources that are banned ENTIRELY because of this prejudice! We allow board wipes, artifact wipes, cards that make everyone sacrifice things, things that restrict play, but when a card does that with mana, it gets banned. I agree that both of those cards are powerful, but they aren’t bannable outside of prejudice.
All of that said, I very much want to hear your opinions on this topic. I truly believe that if we, as a community, make MLD more acceptable then Boros can be fully capable of keeping up with the table.
I was literally about to type that exact same thing. Grenzo is all you need for a rat deck. Get a bunch of mana and pull them from your deck.
That’s not really true. Krenko is super powerful, Rhys the Redeemed is super powerful, the new Emmara is super strong... token/weenie/aggro decks can be very good when done right. Boris has some very good weenie cards, too, like anointed procession and the new Tajic. It’s all a matter of building the deck right.
Oh and you get to use an on-theme Consecrated Sphinx
Yeah, play that cultivate!
And honestly, add more removal. That sounds weird, but knowing that my friend runs 14 removal spells means I’m trying to win faster so I don’t risk losing my threats. I have to act ASAP because my threat could get removed if I Durdle or am afraid of attacking.
Beyond that, I recommend playing Krenko. Games will end real fast.