The problem with that, is if you're using the Ezuri package, you'd most likely lose on your next turn to the Pact trigger.. So you'd need a different Hulk package (and if you're doing the Pili-Pala line, you'd need extra Mana to start it off like you said.)
Honestly, Vannifar is a lot slower and less resilient than Arcum, the only upside she has, is.. probably her access to Flash/Hulk. 'xD
So there isn't really any reason to get the pitchforks ready.. (Hopefully I convinced them.. *cough*)
Getting Double Blue isn't as easy as it sounds.. (For casting Vanny with Counters up, or Transmuting a Muddle. I definitely want to stick Dispel into my Deck, and may end up cutting Muddle, even though that Transmute is rather useful.. slow, but useful in a pinch.)
PS. If you're using Ezuri/Sage combo, don't be like me and run the bare minimum 0-Drops expecting Dryad Arbor to get you your 5th Experience Counter.. >_< (Because if you sac'd her to start a chain.. whoops. At least if you still had a Land drop, you could replay her after bouncing with Scryb.) I think I'm going to add that 0/3 (so I'd have Orni, Walking, Hangar, and the 0/3. 0/3 instead of Memnite because.. I think Memnite is ugly, and it also dies to Elesh Norn, for what it's worth.)
What's the line that requires the least amount of Lands in play? I feel like I focus too much on Drake lines, and they're not always feasible..
You're right though, about just being able to Pod for a Spellseeker if Hulk is in hand.
Swiftfoot Boots doesn't seem all that good, honestly.. For the good it does, I'd rather just have Lightning Greaves... If you're jamming Vannifar at 4 Mana without counters up, at least Greaves would protect it from Sorcery speed removal (can just pass the turn to move the greaves next turn if you needed targeting untappers.) With Boots, you'd have had to wait until 5 Mana, so it's the same amount and also doesn't really let you hold up any countermagic. In all the times I've seen Boots in my goldfishing/testing, it was never helpful.
Heck, if you had a 3drop to start a chain with, you could use Greaves on vanny, pod into Fatestitcher, move greaves to Fatestitcher, untap Vanny, move greaves back, and go from there.. Can't do that with the Boots.
The only time i see Boots being decent, is if you played it on a prior turn, and then cracked an LED to cast and equip Vanny (and that's without counters up.)
PS. I just realized, for the same reason as Lightning Greaves, wouldn't Sylvan Safekeeper be a lot worse, too? If you protect Vannifar, not only are you losing Lands which most likely prevents you from going off that Turn, you're also no longer able to use targeted Untappers.
You're focusing too much on the Protean Hulk. The main line I go for is the Trophy Mage line:
Pod Trophy Mage into Fatestitcher
Fatestitcher into Peregrine Drake
Peregrine Drake into Deadeye Navigator
Unearth Fatestitcher and pod it into Body Double copying Drake
create infinite Mana/Vannifar uses, win.
The main issue I've found with most chains, is that they require way too many Lands in play, and if you're starting from a 0-1 CMC Creature you're bouncing 1-2 back (when you say "requires 3 Land in play" do you mean AFTER any bounces? So if you're starting from a 0-creature, you'd need FIVE Lands in play.. which is not feasible in this deck outside of sac'ing a Veteran Explorer.)
To win without using a Hulk package, the most important creatures end up being Fatestitcher and Woodland Bellower, as they allow you to start two separate chains that can get you to both DEN and a Drake/Double in play. There are other ways to get there, depending on what you have in hand/on board, but that's the basic strat.
I've even had cases in my testing where I've just Hulked for a Deadeye. Though without a Hulk package, I think I might want Great Oak Guardian in the Deck, the lack of a non-Warden non-DEN 6-drop is definitely felt (and it can untap an unearthed Fatestitcher giving you an extra pod use in the pocket, which gives you more freedom.)
I may just have to side that package in when at the LGS that doesn't allow infinite turns.
Now that I'm thinking about it, is Flash even necessary? The only time it'd even be used, is if you have both it and Hulk in the Hand, and the only other ways to get to that point, is with either Spellseeker or Survival of the Fittest (or Muddle in my case) in Hand, but if you had those, you could just win with Vannifar already. And without needing Flash, there's no longer a need for a "Hulk Package," since you could just Hulk for value if you ever chain into it (though the best lines don't need Hulk.)
So that'd free up like 4-5 Cards that could be used for added redundancy (maybe even Stax.) I wonedr if that'd be worth it..
PS. I just realized, for the same reason that Lightning Greaves doesn't work, wouldn't Sylvan Safekeeper be a lot worse, too? If you protect Vannifar, not only are you losing Lands which most likely prevents you from going off that Turn, you're also no longer able to use targeted Untappers.
According to that post you linked, it wouldn't work either, since the Volrath's would just become a 0/0 "Body Double" (since it'd "copy Body Double's ability too late.") :'(
I personally don't want to run [useless] 0-Drops, so I may just remove Flash altogether (wasn't originally planning to include Flash when first building the Deck, anyway..) This changes everything though; may have to go completely back to the drawing board.. >_<
I've got any idea that might work that I'm exploring.. will see. Nope, doesn't work.
Though there is an Arcum Dagsson line, but it involves A LOT of Cards (like Paradox Engine,) and I don't think it's worth the Deck "real estate." I may just have to give in and use the 0-Drops (on the brightside, I won't have to use any mismatched old/new border ones, since Dryad Arbor counts as one as well,) or forget about Flash..
One downside to the only feasible Hulk package involving Infinite Turns, is one of my LGS' puts an [inane house rule] limit on the amount of consecutive Turns one could take.. So it'd require some creative gymnastics to actually win with only 3-4 Turns. But I think I've come up with an absurd line.. lol.
For this to work, you'd need enough Mana Sources to get to 4 Mana by your 2nd consecutive turn:
Unearth Fatestitcher, to pod Peregrine Drake into DEN
Pairing DEN w/ disguised Body Double, flicker Body Double and have it ETB as Peregrine Drake
Infinite Mana/Vannifar uses
So then you do the win-con we originally had with Coiling Oracle and just get most of your Deck into play, all the Counterspells in your Hand, Beast Within the whole board, Rift the tokens away, and pass the turn because we're going to be winning the "fair way" by inevitably slow combat damage!
29 lands is not a "competitive" deck. If you were to actually take this to a tournament you'd lose a high percentage of games due to bad mulls because you have no land hands. Even if you think you can operate on just 1 land with the other mana producing artifact/creatures, you don't get to choose your mulls. I'll assume this is a virtual deck, never actually been played? If you were actually to play back-to-back games with this deck, you'd soon find out that you just lose a number of games because you got greedy with the land count.
Most competitive Decks I see run 28-30 Lands though..
Heck, my Druid Deck has 27 Lands and I find I draw too many.. 'xD (If necessary, I usually Mulligan aggressively down to no more than 1 Forest, since the Deck is basically all Mana Dorks.)
The thing is that Survival is only one card in the deck however, so Revoker and Spellskite still really can't be reliable drawn most games.
Honestly, I'm tempted to run Muddle the Mixture, as a way to Tutor for either Flash or Survival (among other useful things.)
PS. Your cEDH decklist says "29" Lands, but I count 30 (I noticed since you had Flooded Grove, which I didn't. Though I probably should include somehow, since a lot of combos/chains require a bunch of a particular Color.)
Hmm, yeah, you're right, I never thought of getting the Rotation twice (the way you use Vitalize,) I was more fixated on Peregrine untapping.. 'xD
You're actually running Lumbering Falls in the Deck [now]? o_0 I mean, it's one of my favorite Lands, but it is kind of slow and costly to activate.. But I guess if you already had Vannifar in play, you don't really need the Mana, depending on the line you choose. Hmm..
I also notice you put Survival back? I did too, and kept Ula as well. I see you went with both Chrome Mox AND Mana Vault? Hmm..
No Mana Drain? Are the colors that hard to pull off? I wouldn't think so, what with it being a 2Color Deck.. And it can ramp you into an earlier Vannifar, so is it really worth cutting? I see, there's no point ramping into Vannifar, when that risks not having the protection to STICK Vannifar.. You've got a point.
And yeah, I probably will have to cut the Winter Orb as well to make room to put Crop Rotation back in.
One thing I noticed in your cEDH write-up, is you mention that the only ways to feasibly play Revoker or Spellskite is if you naturally draw them, but with Survival [back] in the deck, you could tutor them up that way. I think they might still be worth an include (Revoker at least, since it can stop some enemy Commanders.)
Another thing, is that you mention that the reason you're not running Ula in your cEDH list is because there is more redundancy in the list so it's not necessary, but literally a paragraph above you mention that there ISN'T redundancy [for certain chains]... 'xD
Yeah, I feel like she compares best to Arcum, as he has a similar gameplan in untapping (or having haste) along with a creature, and then tutoring your way to a win using that creature. The main differences I see, is that Vannifar can START winning easier, but has a lot less redundancy than Arcum.. So while I don't think she's better than Arcum from a competitive standpoint, the ease of winning may make her show up on the RC's radar moreso than Arcum does.. (which has me worried.)
But since both require not just one, but two, creatures in play.. it's not that hard to stop. We'll have to see.
True, but bouncing it with Temur Sabertooth costs the same amount of mana as blinking Deadeye Navigator. If you're going to win that same turn, then Pact of Negation or Force of Will would be good ways to protect the combo when it begins to go off. That is actual free mana.
I only mentioned Sabertooth as a redundant back-up plan in the off-chance DEN gets exiled, as the Sabertooth still allows you to go infinite with a Phantasmal Image and Peregrine Drake. As for the free Counters, obviously that'd be the best case scenario, but you won't always have them in hand.
Something interesting I just thought of, if you have DEN stuck in Hand and not enough Mana to hardcast it, if you had Flash in Hand (maybe even using Spellseeker to tutor it up,) you could cheat it out and then flicker either it (or a Drake/Faerie, if they're out, first to get some extra mana) in response. ;P
Can't you just blink a soulbound Deadeye Navigator in response to targeted removal?
The main issue is that usually you only have enough Mana for one Soulbond use, which you use to start the infinite Mana loop, so if they cast the Removal in response to that, you're left with no Mana to pay for bouncing DEN. But waiting to (or doing lines that) get extra Mana for "free" (not needing Disruption in Hand/board) protection if you suspect it, might not be a bad plan in some cases.
Crop Rotation.. Honestly, now that Palinchron is out, the first chain I came up with, isn't possible; so all this does is fetch a Minamo to potentially get past the "5-CMC Hump" if Vitalize is gone somehow (but I guess Mobilize would have done that better anyway.. so maybe I should drop it after all. :'(
How much disruption do I REALLY need, and can I go down some to squeeze in SotF+Ulamog.. 'xD Even just the utility of being able to fetch a Veteran Explorer to start a chain and have extra Lands to go off, is great imo.
PS. You say that opponents would concede because "the writing is on the wall," but you could literally just recur and Beast Within the entire board and then Cyclonic Rift to poof all the Tokens away; can find both simply by flickering Spellseeker, so don't even have to worry about Decking yourself. ~.^
PSS. I totally forgot my list had Glen Elendra Archmage in it.. I wonder if it's too slow, but if it's out, it's great for stopping stuff.
I REALLY disliked her default art, so I channeled my inner Simic and "upgraded" her.
(Transplanted the Booster Pack Art.)
So there isn't really any reason to get the pitchforks ready.. (Hopefully I convinced them.. *cough*)
Getting Double Blue isn't as easy as it sounds.. (For casting Vanny with Counters up, or Transmuting a Muddle. I definitely want to stick Dispel into my Deck, and may end up cutting Muddle, even though that Transmute is rather useful.. slow, but useful in a pinch.)
PS. If you're using Ezuri/Sage combo, don't be like me and run the bare minimum 0-Drops expecting Dryad Arbor to get you your 5th Experience Counter.. >_< (Because if you sac'd her to start a chain.. whoops. At least if you still had a Land drop, you could replay her after bouncing with Scryb.) I think I'm going to add that 0/3 (so I'd have Orni, Walking, Hangar, and the 0/3. 0/3 instead of Memnite because.. I think Memnite is ugly, and it also dies to Elesh Norn, for what it's worth.)
What's the line that requires the least amount of Lands in play? I feel like I focus too much on Drake lines, and they're not always feasible..
You're right though, about just being able to Pod for a Spellseeker if Hulk is in hand.
Swiftfoot Boots doesn't seem all that good, honestly.. For the good it does, I'd rather just have Lightning Greaves... If you're jamming Vannifar at 4 Mana without counters up, at least Greaves would protect it from Sorcery speed removal (can just pass the turn to move the greaves next turn if you needed targeting untappers.) With Boots, you'd have had to wait until 5 Mana, so it's the same amount and also doesn't really let you hold up any countermagic. In all the times I've seen Boots in my goldfishing/testing, it was never helpful.
Heck, if you had a 3drop to start a chain with, you could use Greaves on vanny, pod into Fatestitcher, move greaves to Fatestitcher, untap Vanny, move greaves back, and go from there.. Can't do that with the Boots.
The only time i see Boots being decent, is if you played it on a prior turn, and then cracked an LED to cast and equip Vanny (and that's without counters up.)
PS. I just realized, for the same reason as Lightning Greaves, wouldn't Sylvan Safekeeper be a lot worse, too? If you protect Vannifar, not only are you losing Lands which most likely prevents you from going off that Turn, you're also no longer able to use targeted Untappers.
- Pod Trophy Mage into Fatestitcher
- Fatestitcher into Peregrine Drake
- Peregrine Drake into Deadeye Navigator
- Unearth Fatestitcher and pod it into Body Double copying Drake
- create infinite Mana/Vannifar uses, win.
The main issue I've found with most chains, is that they require way too many Lands in play, and if you're starting from a 0-1 CMC Creature you're bouncing 1-2 back (when you say "requires 3 Land in play" do you mean AFTER any bounces? So if you're starting from a 0-creature, you'd need FIVE Lands in play.. which is not feasible in this deck outside of sac'ing a Veteran Explorer.)To win without using a Hulk package, the most important creatures end up being Fatestitcher and Woodland Bellower, as they allow you to start two separate chains that can get you to both DEN and a Drake/Double in play. There are other ways to get there, depending on what you have in hand/on board, but that's the basic strat.
I've even had cases in my testing where I've just Hulked for a Deadeye. Though without a Hulk package, I think I might want Great Oak Guardian in the Deck, the lack of a non-Warden non-DEN 6-drop is definitely felt (and it can untap an unearthed Fatestitcher giving you an extra pod use in the pocket, which gives you more freedom.)
I may just have to side that package in when at the LGS that doesn't allow infinite turns.
Now that I'm thinking about it, is Flash even necessary? The only time it'd even be used, is if you have both it and Hulk in the Hand, and the only other ways to get to that point, is with either Spellseeker or Survival of the Fittest (or Muddle in my case) in Hand, but if you had those, you could just win with Vannifar already. And without needing Flash, there's no longer a need for a "Hulk Package," since you could just Hulk for value if you ever chain into it (though the best lines don't need Hulk.)
So that'd free up like 4-5 Cards that could be used for added redundancy (maybe even Stax.) I wonedr if that'd be worth it..
PS. I just realized, for the same reason that Lightning Greaves doesn't work, wouldn't Sylvan Safekeeper be a lot worse, too? If you protect Vannifar, not only are you losing Lands which most likely prevents you from going off that Turn, you're also no longer able to use targeted Untappers.
I personally don't want to run [useless] 0-Drops, so I may just remove Flash altogether (wasn't originally planning to include Flash when first building the Deck, anyway..) This changes everything though; may have to go completely back to the drawing board.. >_<
I've got any idea that might work that I'm exploring.. will see.Nope, doesn't work.Though there is an Arcum Dagsson line, but it involves A LOT of Cards (like Paradox Engine,) and I don't think it's worth the Deck "real estate." I may just have to give in and use the 0-Drops (on the brightside, I won't have to use any mismatched old/new border ones, since Dryad Arbor counts as one as well,) or forget about Flash..
One downside to the only feasible Hulk package involving Infinite Turns, is one of my LGS' puts an [inane house rule] limit on the amount of consecutive Turns one could take.. So it'd require some creative gymnastics to actually win with only 3-4 Turns. But I think I've come up with an absurd line.. lol.
Heck, my Druid Deck has 27 Lands and I find I draw too many.. 'xD (If necessary, I usually Mulligan aggressively down to no more than 1 Forest, since the Deck is basically all Mana Dorks.)
You almost scared me there for a second (my innovative use of Biomancer's Familiar was almost stillborn..) 'xD
Honestly, I'm tempted to run Muddle the Mixture, as a way to Tutor for either Flash or Survival (among other useful things.)
PS. Your cEDH decklist says "29" Lands, but I count 30 (I noticed since you had Flooded Grove, which I didn't. Though I probably should include somehow, since a lot of combos/chains require a bunch of a particular Color.)
PSS. You changed Lightning Greaves for Swiftfoot Boots? And I can't figure out why..
You're actually running Lumbering Falls in the Deck [now]? o_0 I mean, it's one of my favorite Lands, but it is kind of slow and costly to activate.. But I guess if you already had Vannifar in play, you don't really need the Mana, depending on the line you choose. Hmm..
I also notice you put Survival back? I did too, and kept Ula as well. I see you went with both Chrome Mox AND Mana Vault? Hmm..
No Mana Drain? Are the colors that hard to pull off? I wouldn't think so, what with it being a 2Color Deck.. And it can ramp you into an earlier Vannifar, so is it really worth cutting?I see, there's no point ramping into Vannifar, when that risks not having the protection to STICK Vannifar.. You've got a point.And yeah, I probably will have to cut the Winter Orb as well to make room to put Crop Rotation back in.
One thing I noticed in your cEDH write-up, is you mention that the only ways to feasibly play Revoker or Spellskite is if you naturally draw them, but with Survival [back] in the deck, you could tutor them up that way. I think they might still be worth an include (Revoker at least, since it can stop some enemy Commanders.)
Another thing, is that you mention that the reason you're not running Ula in your cEDH list is because there is more redundancy in the list so it's not necessary, but literally a paragraph above you mention that there ISN'T redundancy [for certain chains]... 'xD
But since both require not just one, but two, creatures in play.. it's not that hard to stop. We'll have to see.
Something interesting I just thought of, if you have DEN stuck in Hand and not enough Mana to hardcast it, if you had Flash in Hand (maybe even using Spellseeker to tutor it up,) you could cheat it out and then flicker either it (or a Drake/Faerie, if they're out, first to get some extra mana) in response. ;P
I'm down to a couple of last few considerations, which are:
PS. You say that opponents would concede because "the writing is on the wall," but you could literally just recur and Beast Within the entire board and then Cyclonic Rift to poof all the Tokens away; can find both simply by flickering Spellseeker, so don't even have to worry about Decking yourself. ~.^
PSS. I totally forgot my list had Glen Elendra Archmage in it.. I wonder if it's too slow, but if it's out, it's great for stopping stuff.