I'm constantly tweaking the deck but the number of cards I consider "flex slots" is dropping, assuming my meta stays relatively stable.
I see people are avoiding playing Liliana of the Veil. She has been quite the power house in my list. I was apprehensive at first but once I started playing her I felt the deck's power level go up a lot. Ashiok is another card I'd like to see more of in the archetype. There are certainly games where she is useless (delve creatures, hollow one, combo decks, none of which are popular in my meta so I may be biased here...) but she is great so often. Against any midrange or control deck I feel like I can't lose and then against aggro Ashiok is a great win con after the dust has settled after a Damnation.
I'm interested in the rationale behind Depian's list running 0 cheap counter spells in the main. I've been dropping them a lot and relegating them to the sideboard and it's been working really well for me so I'm happy I'm not alone.
Any thoughts on my list? I've been doing pretty well the last few months (averaging about a 2-1 in my local meta) But the last two weeks have been 0-3 and 0-2 with a BYE. I've been getting beaten up by aggro so I'm trying Kalitas and Tendrils in the board. I've been debating going up another cheap kill spell in the main like Cast Down but not sure what to cut.
@ElvesotShelves I don't think you should play only 4 racks. There are green 8 rack decks around so I would look at those if you want to go that route with the deck. I can find one if you're interested. I have some experience with mono black 8 rack and I don't really foresee Loam being all that useful in the deck. You don't need to splash for removal because Inquisition and Thoughtseize are good enough catch-alls.
@Danr2000, @twakatsonic Not sure what your issue is with us discussing an alternative Loam Pox deck... (besides the general rudeness in the air...) I don't want to play BG Rock and I think Loam Pox offers a lot of value that BG Rock doesn't generate. I think in general the posters here are underestimating the value of Smallpox. Also, I counted, my posted list (which admittedly was just a spit ball of an idea) shares about 30 cards with this BG Rock deck... so it's very different even if it has a similar plan.
I don't understand the bickering guys. Everyone's allowed to build and test whatever they want. The way I see it, there's three parts of the title Raphael Levy, Loam, and Pox. Jund people are still following 2/3 of the title (Levy and Loam) and BG people are following another 2/3 (Loam and Pox). So both decks belong here. Neither are tier 1 so I don't think it's a big deal.
@maniospas you're right, I've never played Loam Pox. But I have a lot of experience with BW Smallpox and I feel like they have similar game plans. The main difference is that BW has better late game Planeswalkers and this deck has Loam. So I'm guessing that means this deck leans more on Bloodghast and the red cards seen in some of the decks in this thread. My experience with BW Smallpox has been that Bloodghast is nice in some match ups but it never felt necessary.
@Danr2000 just because the deck we are discussing has the same color combination as the rock doesn't mean it's the same deck. BG rock has nothing near the power level of Smallpox. Yes, decks in the same colors use similar cards. And no, tarmogoyf would be bad in this deck because of smallpox. The starting point of the deck is Loam and Pox and we are working from there. Bear with us for a bit and we may be able to come up with a competitive deck.
Since this is a Loam Pox thread I feel like Smallpox is a very important part of the deck and should probably be on your list of "core cards". I understand some people have developed the deck in a different direction and that's fine, but I think a Loam Pox deck belongs in this thread.
@ElvesotShelves I'm not sure BG 8 Rack is where we want to go with this deck. I've played a bit of 8 rack and I'm generally skeptical of people trying to throw in another color because it usually ends up diluting the primary game plan. What are you cutting from mono black 8 rack to accommodate the Loams? The deck is very streamlined and it's already very efficient. It already plays Smallpox and Raven's Crime without a need for restocking it's lands because most of the deck is 1cmc. And nissa seems a bit expensive though very powerful. I could see running 1. The -3 doesn't seem all the useful since we are mostly sorcery cards. But the +1 and -6 are good enough on their own to warrant at least a test.
I think Bloodghast belongs in the deck, at least in some number. Like maniospas said, you need something left over after you've one-for-oned a million times and Bloodghast works great alongside Smallpox and Collective Brutality.
I think the deck should look a bit like BG rock. It's a good deck that has a similar game plan as our deck. I debated tracker but because of smallpox I thought it might not be good enough. It's also quite the lightning rod in a creatureless deck.
Bloodghast has always felt a little weak to me, especially in a slow grindy deck. But with 4 Collected Brutality and 4 Smallpox it's probably correct to run some number of them.
I'm liking this outline. I think I'd like another win con besides just man lands though. And if you are building a grindy deck why not play Black's grindiest card? Bitterblossom!
Here's a jumping off point. Seems fun, if a little slow. You really need a great opening hand for a deck like this to pay off I think. Maybe we should add ways to generate card advantage long term to add to our Loams. This could help us beat Blue Control decks and may only be necessary in the sideboard. Maybe Bob or Arena would help but that's starting to get really painful. Let me know what you guys think and where we might want to take this deck.
Maybe this is getting too deep but Traverse the Ulvenwald may be useful as well. We can tutor up silver bullet lands like Bojuka Bog and Radiant Fountain for certain match ups.
This is kind of my problem when playing against jeskai. I feel like I'm doing alright for most of game 1 and then they suddenly burn me out and there's only 20 minutes left in the match. I think I'm favored against them in sideboarded games but never feel like I can make it through game 3 against them.
You do know why we splash Black in this deck? For the discard spells: Thoughtseize, Inquisition of Kozilek and Collective Brutality. To play Midrange in Modern, you need to be disruptive against Combo and Control decks: either Black for discard, Blue for counter spells, or Red for land disruption (mostly Blood Moon).
That said, we have to play our PWs on our own turn: you keep mana up, or you apply pressure, it's one or the other. I don't recommend trying to do Gideon Tribal with a splash of Blue for that reason.
As for Liliana of the Veil (which I assume is what you want to run), she is a great card, yes, but I believe you don't want to use her +1 ability, since:
1) You need to play your first 5-6 lands.
2) You don't have any card drawing abilities.
3) You want to keep answers in your hands (Boardwipes, spot removal).
I'm not talking about the deck in general. I'm talking about the specific Esper-walkers list that was posted on the last page. My comment was part of a conversation.
I would tend to agree that planeswalkers pair nicely with black discard and worse with blue counterspells. PWs are slow and mana intensive so you want to be sure the coast is clear rather than wait an extra two turns to have your protection ready. I've been playing a UB Planeswalker list with a little of both discard and counterspells and I've been favoring discard lately. But Cryptic has been amazing.
I would argue that Liliana is really powerful in a PW shell, but maybe less so in BW (as this thread is intended for). Paired with Search for Azcanta and Jace, the Mind Sculptor she really shines for me.
Even without these synergies Liliana is powerful. She protects your team (like any walker in the deck should) and you can always choose to NOT +1 her if you really can't part with a card. I had the same mindset as you when building my UB deck but it turns out, there is usually a dead card in my hand that I don't mind chucking. As you said, you have little to no card draw so you will get into top-deck-mode faster than the average control deck making Liliana great. I'm not sure what the standard array of Planeswalkers is that you all use, so maybe she doesn't make the cut, but I don't think Liliana is bad in the deck.
I think this is the correct way to build it. As much as I like Jace most decks don't want him. And I like having a splash color in three color decks and blue seems to be the weakest in the list. I would even advocate for 1 or 0 snapcaster mages. You can't snap terminus or lingering souls which gives you 14 hits. At that point maybe just run more removal if that's what you need. Maybe Wall of Omens instead.
I have really been liking Tec Edge. As I said in my report I was able to cut my opponent off of red (which would have won him the game). I did this with a Spreading Seas and a Tec Edge. Had I used a Field of Ruin he could have grabbed a Mountain. I feel like these wasteland effects are better in longer games against 3 color decks where you can fully cut them off of a color making tec edge the best for my deck. I think Spreading Seas is strong in the faster match ups where I can slow my opponent down a little bit. Field of ruin keeps me on curve which is nice but is only really powerful against man lands and tron. Both of which I feel are less prevalent than usual.
I have thought a lot about whether or not to cut spreading seas. More interaction and planeswalkers would be very nice. My mana denial plan works well with my discard spells because it keeps them relevant for an extra turn or two before my opponent can dump their hand.
3 snaps would be great if I had just a few more spells I think. Maybe I'll replace logic knot and put in the third snap.
3 Damnation has been slow. But in the late game I love drawing or digging for them. 2 might be better.
Think Twice seems really cool actually. I don't think I want to cut Serum Visions. It's one of my best turn 1 plays. But I'll definitely consider putting it elsewhere.
You're probably right on tar pit. I rarely win with them anyway.
Any tips for the hollow one match up? I have Kalitas, Flaying Tendrils, and Cast Down to bring in. I have little experience with the match up. I feel like graveyard hate isn't powerful enough unless it's leyline and I can't devote 3x sideboard slots for it.
What do you guys think of Tezzeret's Gambit as a one/two of against decks like tron or red prison? I get that it's slow - but it can bring you out of a very lost game.
Why wouldn't you just play Night's Whisper? Seems like a strict upgrade... Drawing cards is good out of the board if you really have that many slow decks in your meta. But make sure you don't over sideboard for one or two match ups out of 30 people at your lgs or wherever you play.
Hi, I don't play esper right now, I play UB. Cast Down has been good for me. It's very very close to "kill target creature", at least in my meta. However, I don't think Esper is interested in it because they play Path to Exile which actually kills everything. If the mana ramp matters then Cast Down may be viable but Path is too good I think.
I would love to play esper walkers but my problem is that there is no splash color. I would rather play something with two main colors so I know what to fetch. Trying to play with double W, B and U just seems too taxing on the mana base. I get that you are only playing Jace in double blue that means you still need to be fetching and shocking for a long time to stay on curve.
I'm also not a fan of Terminus without more ways to trigger it. Though I've never played with the card.
4x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Drowned Catacomb
5x Island
1x Nephalia Drownyard
4x Polluted Delta
1x Sunken Ruins
3x Swamp
4x Tectonic Edge
2x Watery Grave
Planeswalker (7)
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Liliana of the Veil
3x Cryptic Command
3x Fatal Push
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Logic Knot
1x Shadow of Doubt
Sorcery (10)
3x Damnation
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
1x Thoughtseize
Enchantment (6)
2x Search for Azcanta
4x Spreading Seas
Creature (3)
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Cast Down
2x Collective Brutality
3x Countersquall
1x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flaying Tendrils
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x To the Slaughter
1x Vendilion Clique
I'm constantly tweaking the deck but the number of cards I consider "flex slots" is dropping, assuming my meta stays relatively stable.
I see people are avoiding playing Liliana of the Veil. She has been quite the power house in my list. I was apprehensive at first but once I started playing her I felt the deck's power level go up a lot. Ashiok is another card I'd like to see more of in the archetype. There are certainly games where she is useless (delve creatures, hollow one, combo decks, none of which are popular in my meta so I may be biased here...) but she is great so often. Against any midrange or control deck I feel like I can't lose and then against aggro Ashiok is a great win con after the dust has settled after a Damnation.
I'm interested in the rationale behind Depian's list running 0 cheap counter spells in the main. I've been dropping them a lot and relegating them to the sideboard and it's been working really well for me so I'm happy I'm not alone.
Any thoughts on my list? I've been doing pretty well the last few months (averaging about a 2-1 in my local meta) But the last two weeks have been 0-3 and 0-2 with a BYE. I've been getting beaten up by aggro so I'm trying Kalitas and Tendrils in the board. I've been debating going up another cheap kill spell in the main like Cast Down but not sure what to cut.
@Danr2000, @twakatsonic Not sure what your issue is with us discussing an alternative Loam Pox deck... (besides the general rudeness in the air...) I don't want to play BG Rock and I think Loam Pox offers a lot of value that BG Rock doesn't generate. I think in general the posters here are underestimating the value of Smallpox. Also, I counted, my posted list (which admittedly was just a spit ball of an idea) shares about 30 cards with this BG Rock deck... so it's very different even if it has a similar plan.
I don't understand the bickering guys. Everyone's allowed to build and test whatever they want. The way I see it, there's three parts of the title Raphael Levy, Loam, and Pox. Jund people are still following 2/3 of the title (Levy and Loam) and BG people are following another 2/3 (Loam and Pox). So both decks belong here. Neither are tier 1 so I don't think it's a big deal.
@Danr2000 just because the deck we are discussing has the same color combination as the rock doesn't mean it's the same deck. BG rock has nothing near the power level of Smallpox. Yes, decks in the same colors use similar cards. And no, tarmogoyf would be bad in this deck because of smallpox. The starting point of the deck is Loam and Pox and we are working from there. Bear with us for a bit and we may be able to come up with a competitive deck.
Since this is a Loam Pox thread I feel like Smallpox is a very important part of the deck and should probably be on your list of "core cards". I understand some people have developed the deck in a different direction and that's fine, but I think a Loam Pox deck belongs in this thread.
@ElvesotShelves I'm not sure BG 8 Rack is where we want to go with this deck. I've played a bit of 8 rack and I'm generally skeptical of people trying to throw in another color because it usually ends up diluting the primary game plan. What are you cutting from mono black 8 rack to accommodate the Loams? The deck is very streamlined and it's already very efficient. It already plays Smallpox and Raven's Crime without a need for restocking it's lands because most of the deck is 1cmc. And nissa seems a bit expensive though very powerful. I could see running 1. The -3 doesn't seem all the useful since we are mostly sorcery cards. But the +1 and -6 are good enough on their own to warrant at least a test.
I think Bloodghast belongs in the deck, at least in some number. Like maniospas said, you need something left over after you've one-for-oned a million times and Bloodghast works great alongside Smallpox and Collective Brutality.
Bloodghast has always felt a little weak to me, especially in a slow grindy deck. But with 4 Collected Brutality and 4 Smallpox it's probably correct to run some number of them.
2x Bojuka Bog
1x Desert of the Glorified
1x Forest
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Hissing Quagmire
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Radiant Fountain
3x Swamp
1x Treetop Village
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Collective Brutality
2x Damnation
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Life from the Loam
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Raven's Crime
4x Smallpox
3x Thoughtseize
Enchantment (4)
4x Bitterblossom
Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil
Instant (5)
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Fatal Push
2x Bontu's Last Reckoning
1x Dismember
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Golgari Charm
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Sorcerous Spyglass
2x Syphon Life
Here's a jumping off point. Seems fun, if a little slow. You really need a great opening hand for a deck like this to pay off I think. Maybe we should add ways to generate card advantage long term to add to our Loams. This could help us beat Blue Control decks and may only be necessary in the sideboard. Maybe Bob or Arena would help but that's starting to get really painful. Let me know what you guys think and where we might want to take this deck.
Maybe this is getting too deep but Traverse the Ulvenwald may be useful as well. We can tutor up silver bullet lands like Bojuka Bog and Radiant Fountain for certain match ups.
I've been playing straight UB Super Friends / Control. I'm still tweaking stuff but here is what I'm currently working with:
4x Creeping Tar Pit
6x Island
2x Nephalia Drownyard
4x Polluted Delta
1x Sunken Ruins
3x Swamp
3x Tectonic Edge
2x Watery Grave
Planeswalker (8)
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Fatal Push
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Logic Knot
1x Think Twice
Sorcery (10)
3x Damnation
1x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Serum Visions
2x Thoughtseize
Enchantment (6)
2x Search for Azcanta
4x Spreading Seas
Creature (2)
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Cast Down
2x Collective Brutality
3x Countersquall
1x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Jace, Memory Adept
2x To the Slaughter
2x Vendilion Clique
If you see any weird cards / strategies I'm happy to discuss.
There's also been a few 5-0s recently by Osmanozguney on MTGO:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-modern-constructed-league-2018-06-01
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-modern-constructed-league-2018-06-05
And the control freaks discord has a dimir channel. Not too many people post in that channel but there's usually people to discuss with:
https://discord.gg/dCXDYB
I'm not talking about the deck in general. I'm talking about the specific Esper-walkers list that was posted on the last page. My comment was part of a conversation.
I would tend to agree that planeswalkers pair nicely with black discard and worse with blue counterspells. PWs are slow and mana intensive so you want to be sure the coast is clear rather than wait an extra two turns to have your protection ready. I've been playing a UB Planeswalker list with a little of both discard and counterspells and I've been favoring discard lately. But Cryptic has been amazing.
I would argue that Liliana is really powerful in a PW shell, but maybe less so in BW (as this thread is intended for). Paired with Search for Azcanta and Jace, the Mind Sculptor she really shines for me.
Even without these synergies Liliana is powerful. She protects your team (like any walker in the deck should) and you can always choose to NOT +1 her if you really can't part with a card. I had the same mindset as you when building my UB deck but it turns out, there is usually a dead card in my hand that I don't mind chucking. As you said, you have little to no card draw so you will get into top-deck-mode faster than the average control deck making Liliana great. I'm not sure what the standard array of Planeswalkers is that you all use, so maybe she doesn't make the cut, but I don't think Liliana is bad in the deck.
I have really been liking Tec Edge. As I said in my report I was able to cut my opponent off of red (which would have won him the game). I did this with a Spreading Seas and a Tec Edge. Had I used a Field of Ruin he could have grabbed a Mountain. I feel like these wasteland effects are better in longer games against 3 color decks where you can fully cut them off of a color making tec edge the best for my deck. I think Spreading Seas is strong in the faster match ups where I can slow my opponent down a little bit. Field of ruin keeps me on curve which is nice but is only really powerful against man lands and tron. Both of which I feel are less prevalent than usual.
I have thought a lot about whether or not to cut spreading seas. More interaction and planeswalkers would be very nice. My mana denial plan works well with my discard spells because it keeps them relevant for an extra turn or two before my opponent can dump their hand.
3 snaps would be great if I had just a few more spells I think. Maybe I'll replace logic knot and put in the third snap.
3 Damnation has been slow. But in the late game I love drawing or digging for them. 2 might be better.
Think Twice seems really cool actually. I don't think I want to cut Serum Visions. It's one of my best turn 1 plays. But I'll definitely consider putting it elsewhere.
You're probably right on tar pit. I rarely win with them anyway.
Any tips for the hollow one match up? I have Kalitas, Flaying Tendrils, and Cast Down to bring in. I have little experience with the match up. I feel like graveyard hate isn't powerful enough unless it's leyline and I can't devote 3x sideboard slots for it.
Why wouldn't you just play Night's Whisper? Seems like a strict upgrade... Drawing cards is good out of the board if you really have that many slow decks in your meta. But make sure you don't over sideboard for one or two match ups out of 30 people at your lgs or wherever you play.
I would love to play esper walkers but my problem is that there is no splash color. I would rather play something with two main colors so I know what to fetch. Trying to play with double W, B and U just seems too taxing on the mana base. I get that you are only playing Jace in double blue that means you still need to be fetching and shocking for a long time to stay on curve.
I'm also not a fan of Terminus without more ways to trigger it. Though I've never played with the card.
Ruinous Blast is spicy.