Here's an idea for a deck: play your full 8 mana dorks and make Underworld Cerberus your top cost threat. Add in your choice of either Lotleth Troll or Pack Rat. You'll need about 4 Varolz too for consistency, spread out amongst your 75. He's not (necessarily) your scavenge enabler, he's a free instant creature sack.
Get it? Ramp to 5, play Cerberus and either kill opponent or get cards back to reuse as either +1/+1 counters or extra rats. Varolz ensures you get full use off your mana dorks as Caryatid has the nasty habit of surviving when you want him as Troll/Rat enabler. He also acts as lightning rod against Detention Spheres and what-nots: saccing the Cerberus in response to ensure you get your cards back.
Best part: you can choose the 4 drop of your choice. Now I've been thinking about what that 4 drop should be, but I do know it should be the greatest threat I could get for 4 mana, so as to get the greatest value when it returns from the GY. I'm hesitating between Desecration, GCR, Reaper and Exava.
Exava has been a disappointment in that many decks mainboard 4 Desecration Demons and Exava can't blow past that. Demon itself is often a disappointment against faster Boros decks, I can't recommend him for your deck. I even thought about Rot farm Skeleton, which isn't such a bad idea against control! In short, I don't know what I want. I'll probably keep the Domri build as I'm starved for card draw, so I'll want as much creature-based removal as possible.
My removal of choice: Putrefy. Also, you have to keep mana and that's a whole different argument, on whether you consider Troll as a 3 drop or a conditional 2 drop.
Which brings us back to Reaper of the Wilds, Lotleth Troll and other G/B creatures with some form of protection or another. I'd lump Dreg Mangler into this group as well because Haste is a form of protection, against sorcery speed removal and people tapping out on their turns. And thus comes Exava; and thus comes the full concept of Turbo-Hydra.
So needless to say, Deadly Recluse was a bust. Trying my hand at everything, I went back to Lotleth Troll. Still experimenting with Pyrewild Shaman, it does have synergy with the Troll. If you really want to go 1-2-3, I'd suggest you follow the G/R midrange thread. They're looking at a monsters build with plenty of GCRs and Kalonian Boars for second turn 3/3. Talroma claims it stomps all over mono black but I fail to imagine how it'd beat a hand full of Toughseizes, Lifebane Zombies, removal and such. At which point you follow the G/B hexproof thread (Fear the Reaper), which I consider strictly better.
I guess every deck has its bad top decks, but Lotleth helps mitigate that as well. I was thinking of mainboarding Varolz for this same reason (mitigating bad topdecks) but my two drops need more work than my three drops. And yes, I will play Troll and Reaper at their given cost (not holding regen/hexp mana up) because every Hero's Downfall that hits a second/third turn play doesn't hit the rest of my stuff and because I simply cannot wait the extra turn for it to attack (that is to say, I'd play these cards without mana back-up only as a last resort).
Cerberus goes in against mono-black, but I keep him SB because I was tired of losing to aggro decks game one. Rakdos Return over Slaughter Games as I realize how the Hydra pretty much offers inevitability, so might as well screw their hands up ASAP rather than grind against them. 2nd Putrify because I realized I was mostly using Domri as removal anyways, so who cares if I screw up a +1 or not. He never survives for long anyways and I need to kill those opposing creatures.
Immediately, I'd think the first question you should ask yourself is: what's my two drop? Because just having 4 Caryatids isn't enough (although four is the correct number) and Scooze isn't a two drop per-se.
I'm going back and forth between Deadly Recluses and Thrill-Kill Assassin, between 3 copies and 4; because I know most decks now open with a Thoughtseize and having an early play matters in the long run.
Specifically? I think Whip is overrated and Cerberus might be more your style. You're not running Kalonian Hydra, so I think you get more value off Varolz scavenge than a single blow from a non-evasive beat. Cerberus itself offers evasiveness, in a fashion.
I can't approve of your misers copy, unless from the sideboard, and even then. You can't activate Nylea regularly and even I found Polis Crusher disappointing at times. I'd ditch Nylea, leave the miser's Crusher SB and decide from there.
Look at what you did comparing Domri to Putrify: Domri stays on the board after a fight and all you lost was the opportunity to gain an extra card. You're using a 2 mana creature to presumably kill a 4 or even a 5 mana one. You don't lose Domri until an opponent interacts with it, and that means one less card for them to interact with your Hydra.
Say what you will about Hydra, but he only needs about two turns to shut-off a game. Which is far less that Dragon. And don't talk about Monstrous until you show me the mana base that can regularly unleash the Monstrous ability. I consider the Dragon to be far too mana-expensive for what it does.
Though I'm often of two minds between Deadly Recluse and Thrill-Kill Assassin, there's no denying there are too many flyers in standard for Domri to survive without Air defense, to the point that I'm looking at additional reach creatures. Cloudfin Raptor, Chandra's Pheonix, Desecration Demon, white with their new Pegasus Champion. Its also a good blocker on it's own, until you meet ash zealot and the weenie first strikers.
Black offers Underworld Cerberus, which is worth it in the control match-ups. Don't like it against aggro, though.
I think Gyre Sage is too cute, Sylvan Caryatid is where it's at. I'd try adding red if only for Domri Rade; maybe remove forced adaptation for rapid hybridization.
Hey fellow Turbo Hydra fan! I'm on the Hydra train too, maining 4 Domris and experimenting with various sources of creature-based removal to keep me alive in the fight against Aggro.
Seriously, you have a battle plan that revolves around heavy aggro/Combo and Desecration demon is the first creature that'll get stonewalled by every card in an opponent's deck. He works with Varolz, and then again only with resilient or evasive creatures. I've experimented with SB Anger of the Gods, but in practice there isn't enough red sources for it to happen consistently turn 3... Unless you cast Sylvan Caryatid first.
Anywho, check my sig and look over what I have. I'll tell you one thing though: Turbo Hydra is very much a combo deck. You really have to commit as much as possible for it to reap dividends.
Anyone still in this thing? Love is gone for Thrill-Kill Assassin, now I'm experimenting with Deadly Recluse instead. In the mainboard.
Sounds stupid but there's just so many threats this card neutralizes. It really helps keep the pressure off Domri, drawing hate and managing to stall many win conditions out there such as DD and Stormbreath. It's completely asynergistic with my deck, but what was I going to do? With Exava it gains haste, big woop... Growing to 3/4 with Kalonian Hydra was cool at times, but Kalonian Hydra itself was the finish: one hit with the Hydra was enough to send people down the red zone.
Deadly Recluse does everything expected from TKA except damage. The two toughness also makes it a non-factor against Precinct Captain and Fiendslayer Paladin... but only white weenie uses such cards. Red doesn't really have any efficient first strikers.
Since this is a new page and a lot has happened, I'll just post my new deck:
What a mess of cards this is. No seriously, who'd imagine this could be championship material?
Breakdown: 4 Hydras + 2 Underworld Cerberus are our threats, our game enders. Pseudo-evasiveness with some manner of protection thrown in, wrapped in a package of pure power.
EDIT: I'm tired of losing all my game ones against aggro or red decks due to complete lack of lifegain so I'm hedging my bets. I'm moving my Cerberuses to the SB, to be brought in against pure control.
EDIT 2: GCR has been underperforming. Have replaced them with Reaper of the Wilds, and I removed a single Deadly Recluse for a second Pyrewild Shaman. The next thing I'll most probably edit will be the Mainboard inclusion of Whip of Erebos, for another removal-ish creature card in the SB against the Aggro match-up.
I have high hopes for singleton Pyrewild Shaman. I think it's better than Boon Satyr in our decks because the 2 mana bloorush cost makes it easier to hide. If I've always treated Bloodrush as pseudo-removal, then Pyrewild is a recuring pseudo-removal spell. Gives values to my recluses: I swing and either get my card back or they lose another creature.
I wonder if people realize how so many more battles are won on advantageous board states rather than life points; that's why I threw out my Oozes and Whip from the mainboard. For the purpose of drawing threats, I prefer Wilds to Underworld Connections because it simply filters off the non-threats without costing me anything. It's also easy to cast from a turn 2 Caryatid. Gotta think about them 4 drops.
By your talk of 1-2-3s I'm guessing that Caryatids aren't working out? Or that you're not getting enough value off your 4-drops? Turn 3 Polukranos means turn 3 5/5 and a turn 3 DD is bound to catch control unaware. Even turn 3 GCR has been most helpful to me against the aggro match-up.
On my end... I've been realizing that lifegain isn't what I'm going for in such a combo deck. My deck needs Domri the most, because if I don't have an offensive creature, I'm screwed. I realized that Pyrewild works along GCR, and I'm trying new refinements that eschew lifegain for more removal/draw. Something like, -2 Oozes, -1 Whip from my old maindeck, replaced by an Underworld Cerberus, a Pyrewild Shaman and an Into the Wilds. Because land clumps sucks for this deck and there's a modicum of synergy with Domri.
If you're going in more Golgari colors, you'll really appreate Lifebane Zombie. I think you'll have to go more black than green, though. At which point I'm afraid you'll fall into the old trap of differentiating yourself from the mo-black decks splashing green for Vraska/abrupt decay that are infesting standard.
I sincerely believe you're over-evaluating the value of Whip. Creature tokens are not the best source of lifegain. You don't have enough good creatures to recur through whip. It's not a good 4-drop off a Caryatid. You've got great 4 mana plays, I think you can afford to wait until you can drop a truly important enchantment.
I understand how an extra sweeper would help against Elspeth (not as much against mono red which has a bunch on toughness 2 creatures), but how about a Mainboard solution? I'm using a singleton or doublet Underworld Cerberus? The Boon Satyr is oddly positioned; best used as a five drop insurance against removal, will keep you stonewalled against the mirror/Xenagos tokens. Cerberus offers evasion and some wrath protection.
I think I agree on the RTB/UC. I agree on the logic, though. If you go more Primeaval Bounty, though; UC would be better, obviously.
Think about what creatures we'd be Bloodrushing. Or at least, that I'd be Bloodrushing. It won't save a TKA being blocked by something that deals 4 Power and above, but then again we use TKA as a form of removal anyhow. With Dreg Mangler, he trades one-for-one with Desecration Demon, and until I see a regular 7/7 in standard, that's the biggest non-monstrous creature in standard. With Exava... Well Exava has First strike, she wins.
Pyrewild remains relevant against Control until they bring in Elspeth. In this case, cast Pyrewild as a Creature and just make sure he doesnt Anger the Gods. I'm effectively losing a 4/4 Trampler for 4 mana, but I consider there's far too much Removal in this meta for such a vanilla creature. Didn't you say he was behind the curve anyhow?
Against mono-green Dev... Well that's where he fails hard. I would want to hard cast a 4/4 Trampler to push through Satyr tokens. I SB in Lifebane over Manglers, Varolz over Oozes, and that's not a lot of threats that don't get stonewalled. That new Naya Control deck is particularly infuriating because it uses Xanagos and Elspeth to consistently stonewall...
With 6 mana on the board (not that difficult), he's a funny answer to Desecration Demon. Sac, swing, recoup, cast, repeat...
Get it? Ramp to 5, play Cerberus and either kill opponent or get cards back to reuse as either +1/+1 counters or extra rats. Varolz ensures you get full use off your mana dorks as Caryatid has the nasty habit of surviving when you want him as Troll/Rat enabler. He also acts as lightning rod against Detention Spheres and what-nots: saccing the Cerberus in response to ensure you get your cards back.
Best part: you can choose the 4 drop of your choice. Now I've been thinking about what that 4 drop should be, but I do know it should be the greatest threat I could get for 4 mana, so as to get the greatest value when it returns from the GY. I'm hesitating between Desecration, GCR, Reaper and Exava.
Exava has been a disappointment in that many decks mainboard 4 Desecration Demons and Exava can't blow past that. Demon itself is often a disappointment against faster Boros decks, I can't recommend him for your deck. I even thought about Rot farm Skeleton, which isn't such a bad idea against control! In short, I don't know what I want. I'll probably keep the Domri build as I'm starved for card draw, so I'll want as much creature-based removal as possible.
So needless to say, Deadly Recluse was a bust. Trying my hand at everything, I went back to Lotleth Troll. Still experimenting with Pyrewild Shaman, it does have synergy with the Troll. If you really want to go 1-2-3, I'd suggest you follow the G/R midrange thread. They're looking at a monsters build with plenty of GCRs and Kalonian Boars for second turn 3/3. Talroma claims it stomps all over mono black but I fail to imagine how it'd beat a hand full of Toughseizes, Lifebane Zombies, removal and such. At which point you follow the G/B hexproof thread (Fear the Reaper), which I consider strictly better.
I guess every deck has its bad top decks, but Lotleth helps mitigate that as well. I was thinking of mainboarding Varolz for this same reason (mitigating bad topdecks) but my two drops need more work than my three drops. And yes, I will play Troll and Reaper at their given cost (not holding regen/hexp mana up) because every Hero's Downfall that hits a second/third turn play doesn't hit the rest of my stuff and because I simply cannot wait the extra turn for it to attack (that is to say, I'd play these cards without mana back-up only as a last resort).
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Lotleth Troll
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dreg Mangler
1 Pyrewild Shaman
4 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Kalonian Hydra
4 Domri Rade
2 Putrefy
1 Whip of Erebos
Lands (24)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Temple of Abandon
4 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Putrefy
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
4 Lifebane Zombie
3 Rakdos' Return
2 Underworld Cerberus
Cerberus goes in against mono-black, but I keep him SB because I was tired of losing to aggro decks game one. Rakdos Return over Slaughter Games as I realize how the Hydra pretty much offers inevitability, so might as well screw their hands up ASAP rather than grind against them. 2nd Putrify because I realized I was mostly using Domri as removal anyways, so who cares if I screw up a +1 or not. He never survives for long anyways and I need to kill those opposing creatures.
I'm going back and forth between Deadly Recluses and Thrill-Kill Assassin, between 3 copies and 4; because I know most decks now open with a Thoughtseize and having an early play matters in the long run.
Specifically? I think Whip is overrated and Cerberus might be more your style. You're not running Kalonian Hydra, so I think you get more value off Varolz scavenge than a single blow from a non-evasive beat. Cerberus itself offers evasiveness, in a fashion.
I can't approve of your misers copy, unless from the sideboard, and even then. You can't activate Nylea regularly and even I found Polis Crusher disappointing at times. I'd ditch Nylea, leave the miser's Crusher SB and decide from there.
Say what you will about Hydra, but he only needs about two turns to shut-off a game. Which is far less that Dragon. And don't talk about Monstrous until you show me the mana base that can regularly unleash the Monstrous ability. I consider the Dragon to be far too mana-expensive for what it does.
Though I'm often of two minds between Deadly Recluse and Thrill-Kill Assassin, there's no denying there are too many flyers in standard for Domri to survive without Air defense, to the point that I'm looking at additional reach creatures. Cloudfin Raptor, Chandra's Pheonix, Desecration Demon, white with their new Pegasus Champion. Its also a good blocker on it's own, until you meet ash zealot and the weenie first strikers.
Black offers Underworld Cerberus, which is worth it in the control match-ups. Don't like it against aggro, though.
Seriously, you have a battle plan that revolves around heavy aggro/Combo and Desecration demon is the first creature that'll get stonewalled by every card in an opponent's deck. He works with Varolz, and then again only with resilient or evasive creatures. I've experimented with SB Anger of the Gods, but in practice there isn't enough red sources for it to happen consistently turn 3... Unless you cast Sylvan Caryatid first.
Anywho, check my sig and look over what I have. I'll tell you one thing though: Turbo Hydra is very much a combo deck. You really have to commit as much as possible for it to reap dividends.
Sounds stupid but there's just so many threats this card neutralizes. It really helps keep the pressure off Domri, drawing hate and managing to stall many win conditions out there such as DD and Stormbreath. It's completely asynergistic with my deck, but what was I going to do? With Exava it gains haste, big woop... Growing to 3/4 with Kalonian Hydra was cool at times, but Kalonian Hydra itself was the finish: one hit with the Hydra was enough to send people down the red zone.
Deadly Recluse does everything expected from TKA except damage. The two toughness also makes it a non-factor against Precinct Captain and Fiendslayer Paladin... but only white weenie uses such cards. Red doesn't really have any efficient first strikers.
Since this is a new page and a lot has happened, I'll just post my new deck:
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Deadly Recluse
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dreg Mangler
2 Pyrewild Shaman
4 Exava, the Blood Witch
2 Reaper of the Wilds
4 Kalonian Hydra
4 Domri Rade
2 Putrify
1 Into the Wilds
Lands (24)
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Crypt
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
4 Lifebane Zombie
1 Putrify
1 Whip of Erebos
3 Slaughter Games
2 Underworld Cerberus
Breakdown: 4 Hydras + 2 Underworld Cerberus are our threats, our game enders. Pseudo-evasiveness with some manner of protection thrown in, wrapped in a package of pure power.
EDIT: I'm tired of losing all my game ones against aggro or red decks due to complete lack of lifegain so I'm hedging my bets. I'm moving my Cerberuses to the SB, to be brought in against pure control.
EDIT 2: GCR has been underperforming. Have replaced them with Reaper of the Wilds, and I removed a single Deadly Recluse for a second Pyrewild Shaman. The next thing I'll most probably edit will be the Mainboard inclusion of Whip of Erebos, for another removal-ish creature card in the SB against the Aggro match-up.
I have high hopes for singleton Pyrewild Shaman. I think it's better than Boon Satyr in our decks because the 2 mana bloorush cost makes it easier to hide. If I've always treated Bloodrush as pseudo-removal, then Pyrewild is a recuring pseudo-removal spell. Gives values to my recluses: I swing and either get my card back or they lose another creature.
I wonder if people realize how so many more battles are won on advantageous board states rather than life points; that's why I threw out my Oozes and Whip from the mainboard. For the purpose of drawing threats, I prefer Wilds to Underworld Connections because it simply filters off the non-threats without costing me anything. It's also easy to cast from a turn 2 Caryatid. Gotta think about them 4 drops.
Can I recommend Chandra, Pyromaster SB, especially since black loves Lifebane Zombie?
On my end... I've been realizing that lifegain isn't what I'm going for in such a combo deck. My deck needs Domri the most, because if I don't have an offensive creature, I'm screwed. I realized that Pyrewild works along GCR, and I'm trying new refinements that eschew lifegain for more removal/draw. Something like, -2 Oozes, -1 Whip from my old maindeck, replaced by an Underworld Cerberus, a Pyrewild Shaman and an Into the Wilds. Because land clumps sucks for this deck and there's a modicum of synergy with Domri.
If you're going in more Golgari colors, you'll really appreate Lifebane Zombie. I think you'll have to go more black than green, though. At which point I'm afraid you'll fall into the old trap of differentiating yourself from the mo-black decks splashing green for Vraska/abrupt decay that are infesting standard.
I understand how an extra sweeper would help against Elspeth (not as much against mono red which has a bunch on toughness 2 creatures), but how about a Mainboard solution? I'm using a singleton or doublet Underworld Cerberus? The Boon Satyr is oddly positioned; best used as a five drop insurance against removal, will keep you stonewalled against the mirror/Xenagos tokens. Cerberus offers evasion and some wrath protection.
I think I agree on the RTB/UC. I agree on the logic, though. If you go more Primeaval Bounty, though; UC would be better, obviously.
Think about what creatures we'd be Bloodrushing. Or at least, that I'd be Bloodrushing. It won't save a TKA being blocked by something that deals 4 Power and above, but then again we use TKA as a form of removal anyhow. With Dreg Mangler, he trades one-for-one with Desecration Demon, and until I see a regular 7/7 in standard, that's the biggest non-monstrous creature in standard. With Exava... Well Exava has First strike, she wins.
Pyrewild remains relevant against Control until they bring in Elspeth. In this case, cast Pyrewild as a Creature and just make sure he doesnt Anger the Gods. I'm effectively losing a 4/4 Trampler for 4 mana, but I consider there's far too much Removal in this meta for such a vanilla creature. Didn't you say he was behind the curve anyhow?
Against mono-green Dev... Well that's where he fails hard. I would want to hard cast a 4/4 Trampler to push through Satyr tokens. I SB in Lifebane over Manglers, Varolz over Oozes, and that's not a lot of threats that don't get stonewalled. That new Naya Control deck is particularly infuriating because it uses Xanagos and Elspeth to consistently stonewall...
With 6 mana on the board (not that difficult), he's a funny answer to Desecration Demon. Sac, swing, recoup, cast, repeat...