Q1 - Does Vorapede still get bounced by boomerang?
Q2 - If not, does Vorapede still do combat damage?
Q3 - If Vorapede was not the target of boomerang, but "died" (e.g. momentous fall, or terror) during combat, would it still do combat damage?
Q4 - If Vorapede was not the target of boomerang, but "died" (e.g. momentous fall, or terror) during combat, would it be tapped from the attack?
Q5 - If Vorapede was not the target of boomerang, but "died" (e.g. momentous fall, or terror) during combat, would it have summoning sickness?
My (limited) understanding is that undying works like a new creature, so Q1-no, Q2-no, Q3-no, Q4-no, Q5-yes.
Scenario 2: You are correct in the sense that since Path to Exile removed the target from the battlefield, the Kiki-Jiki ability has no more legal targets and so will fail to resolve, meaning a token that's a copy of Worldspine Wurm won't be created (C.R. 608.2b).
I just want to confirm:
If there was another legal target, for example if Primeval Titan is on the board before Tooth and Nail is cast, it would not change anything. i.e. After worldspine wurm is exiled, there is a legal targetcreature on the board that could have been a legal target, but the target of "worldspine wurm" has already been nominated and cannot change after Path to Exile has resolved.
My understanding of the stack: Scenario one
Kiki Jiki's ability is on the stack. Therefore, when Kiki-Jiki gets exiled, the ability still resolves and Player 1 has a copy of worldspine.
Scenario two
Kiki Jiki's ability still resolves. However, before it resolves, path-to-exile has removed the target. Therefore Player 1 does not have a copy of worldspine, nor the original, so zero wurms.
Scenario three
Tooth and Nail resolves, but Player 1 does not tap Kiki in the main phase. Moving to end-step, Player 2 decides to cast Path to Exile on Worldspine. Player 1 then taps Kiki Jiki in response. Kiki resolves first, and Player 1 has a copy of the wurm. Then PtE resolves, and the original worldspine is exiled. The copy of worldspine will soon be sacrificed and at the end of the turn stands Kiki Jiki and 3x5/5 wurms. (I understand the copy is sacrificed at the "beginning of the next end step" so it depends a little when PtE was played, possibly they have the copy for Player 2's turn. This question is more about how the stack operates) edit: if anyone checks this thread, note that I had edited this scenario about 2 minutes after I got my response, hence why I mention something in scenario three that peteroupc covers - discomute
Am I correct?
Sorry I should have been more specific - you throw down an entwined Tooth and Nail wanting an auto win except Karakas is out. Xenagos works if your devotion is low enough, but can you swing a worldspine or blightsteel another way? Surrak just gets bounced. As does red ones like the praetor. Kiki can get one off. But I'd love a craterhoof or endraze type that gave haste.
This is a high ranking thread on Google so it got me thinking - here are my personal list:
Top 15 big Green Creatures
For casual play (meaning cost of the card is valued, and is its ability to adapt to creature and removal heavy environments, plus multiplayer)
1. Sylvan Primordial
There isn't a lot of debate about Sylvan or Primeval Titan being 1 or 2, but I think top spot in casual goes to Sylvan, because he dominates multiplayer and costs $0.43 instead of $8.49. Aside from being able to attack land, he can smash things like Astral Slide and Ensnaring Bridge that the Emrakul couldn't get through.
2. Primeval Titan
Pick a land, any land. One of the few cards in the game that can fetch non-basic land, so grab yourself a Kessig Wolf Run and a Stomping Ground. Accelerates like not much else.
3. Dungrove Eldar
There is a theme to what creatures I love - protection. Sylvan and Titan don't have it, but you do get a massive advantage from entering in the battlefield. So even if they get smashed straight away, you get something. Dungrove is hexproof, and can grow very quickly. He won't suit every deck, like if you are ramping with elves and enchantments, but at $0.64 he is a bargain.
4. Carnage Tyrant
It depends on your meta, but throwing down big creatures can be difficult against blue, especially if they can draw (e.g. cryptic command, exclude. He is midrange at $8.69 but a great addition and once he is down, he is down.
No, well actually his ability makes him very strong. There are 4 cards that seem dominate my meta: lightning bolt, path to exile, crackling doom and wrath of god. Different tanks deal with some or all of them. Emrakul can take PtE, but can't take wrath or CD. Blightsteel can take wrath, but can't take CD or path. In fact, Worldspine only cannot handle one: Path to exile. Okay, it does die to the others, but you get 3x5/5 trample wurms. Furthermore, he is non legendary so Karakas won't bother him. And if you want to run Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker... think of the wurms!
He is 11cmc so at $8.96 so under most of the tanks. Plus we are green so we will cheat things out. Important, his CMC isn't caught up in a great bonus when he is cast. So you get full value from Tooth and Nail or Elvish Piper.
Also combos well one of my favourite casual instants, Momentous Fall. (Did I tell you about the time deflecting palm was played on a xenagos inspired 30/30 worldspine and I had to cast momentous fall? Hilarity!)
6. Xenagos, God of Revels
$15.49 and not really a big creature and not entirely green... but amazing with Tooth and Nail. And really, just handy in any deck. She shouldn't be here, but she is. That's how good she is.
7. Hornet Queen
On face value not as good as the others... but $1.52 and deals with a lot of things that Green find difficult. Flyers and being out muscled. Also great with Kiki Jiki. And I just like the flavour.
8. Thornling
$2.05 and comes with a range of abilities. Great value at 5cmc.
9. Vorapede
Super underrated card for casual play. $0.67. Sticks around. Goes well with Momentous Fall. Also well with another green mainstay, eternal witness as it's a bit of a 4 for 1.
10. Endraze Forerunners
Okay well all know this is a cheap version of the real deal, craterhoof behemoth. But its $0.49 instead of $58.69. And nearly as good. Built for weenie armies, one of the tanks that goes well with elves.
11. Omnath, Locus of Mana
3CMC with no protection and $22. Perhaps should be higher on this list. But "the battery" is amazing if you can keep him around a turn or two. Play him with 5 mana available and you are guaranteed 7 mana next turn. 6 available then 9. Tooth and Nail happens a lot earlier. Plus he gets big. You get it.
12. Stonehoof Chieftain
Great card, okay its 8cmc at $9.99 but really beefs up your army. Not a lot to dislike.
13. Leatherback Baloth / Steel Leaf Champion
3 CMC is as low as I can go without protection. At least outside of lightning bolt range. These are grouped together because they are often found together in a devotion deck. But really good anywhere.
14. Gaea's Revenge
A really underrated card. $0.49 the cheap version of the Tyrant. That extra CMC hurts but if you are on a budget I think its amazing.
15. Blightsteel Colossus
Blightsteel is an absolute tank and is the only one that seems to handle those deathtouch first strike tokens my mate generates... okay not getting off topic but there isn't a better tank out to Tooth and Nail with Xenagos but at $58.88 he probably doesn't belong on this list. But it's so awesome.
The best green creature in existence: Sakura-Tribe Elder
Not a tank so not on the list. This the most underrated awesome card in existence. $1.25. Ramps but cannot be taken away from you. You will always get your forest, plus, probably a body to block a creature. Also can find you that mountain if you have xenagos in your hand. Or just a land if you have more than one colour. Why don't more people love this? It's #1 on my green list.
Dishonourable mentions (controvesry!):
The Eldrazi Titans
You aren't green or fun you're lame. Also you are friggen expensive in $$. We like you cheat you out and a lot of your cmc is in your cast ability. The exception is Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Partially because he is such a tank he is worth cheating out, partially because he is half the price as Ulamog the others, partially because path to exile is sooooo common, and partially because he can mill-proof your deck.
(Yes I am aware this is a bit rich considering #15 so what of it?)
Gigantosaurus, Ghalta, primal hunger
High CMC and no protection. Gigan with no evasion and Ghalta is $9.00 - its effect is close to (if not completely in) the win-more field.
Rhonas the Indomitable
$13.99 and too close to win more for me to like. (Edit actually I think I like him - 04 Jan 20)
Kalonian HydraPrimordial Hydra
I'm sorry - I want protection for your CMC. And if you don't give it to me, give me haste. Instead, you have cards without protection which take 2-3 turns to get going. Pass all day.
impervious greatwurm 16/16 and indestructible sounds like a match made in heaven, especially since he's easier to get out with convoke. But no trample or any evasion? Stopped by a 1/1 goblin really. Pass.
So... not sure if the TS is still around, but if anyone finds this thread, a lot to check out
FTW - Very true, I don't think Harmonize belongs. Think I will take another Yavimaya Elder and Momentus Fall, with the added bonus I don't need to source more cards.
bigblu - definitely an option to look at... Cat snake up there with a razorfin hunter as having the oddest parents.
Be careful with kiki if you think they have a crackling doom in hand. They can respond to the kiki activation with it to ruin your day. Kikki does provide some nice coverage if you don't get greedy though.
As I understand it, the effect would be placed on the stack, then I would have to sacrifice a creature (say Kiki and Worldspine are out, I'd have to sacrifice worldspine) and then the effect would still happen and I'd get a copy of worldspine for that turn... is that right?
Yeah thanks, one thing I guess I didn't write was that I have a very similiar deck to this that runs tooth & nail. I have found it has been about a 4/5 on the power scale in my casual group. I have therefore wanted to make a sideboard (has become a new deck for the ease) that was closer to a 3 or even a 2. Therefore I'd like fun cards (why I am taking 1 of a lot of different green fatties) and make sure it is nice and consistent, but not necessarily looking for the win.
Playtesting has revealed FTW is correct it sucks to get stuck on 5 mana especially with a Titan or two in your hand.
In other news I don't think I counted very well and I could actually take 4 of that list... Now thinking
That being said, I rarely have an issue with cards in my hand, so much as getting stuck on land, so I am wondering if more Kodoma's Reach or even Khalni Heart Expedition might suit it better than Harmonize.
I'm happy enough with cinder glade because the only thing I want it for is kessig wolf run, which generally is only fetched by primeval titan anyway. In other words, titan will get me both. The only issue would be if I draw kessig naturally... Hmm worth thinking about as I don't want a lot of mana and nothing to do with it.
That is why I was leaning towards Thornling too. Akroma's is sooo tempting though... Think you might be right about Vivien. 5 is so much easier to hit than 7 in this deck too.
Great list. Thought I had my head around green but I hasn't seen Rhonas before - he's terrific. Also if anyone used this as a recourse Gaea's revenge is a classic, as is sylvan primordial
2. Crush the Weak is played (full cost and by the same player who owns Smoldering Egg)
3. Smoldering Egg is now 0/2 with 6 counters on it
4. Crush the Weak is played again
5. The counters go on the stack and Smoldering Egg is transformed to Ashmouth Dragon
6. Is Ashmouth Dragon at 4/4 or 4/2 due to damage at step 3? When the second Crush the Weak resolves, will it kill Ashmouth Dragon?
P2: Casts boomerang targeting vorapede
P1: Casts Momentous Fall sacrificing Vorapede
Q1 - Does Vorapede still get bounced by boomerang?
Q2 - If not, does Vorapede still do combat damage?
Q3 - If Vorapede was not the target of boomerang, but "died" (e.g. momentous fall, or terror) during combat, would it still do combat damage?
Q4 - If Vorapede was not the target of boomerang, but "died" (e.g. momentous fall, or terror) during combat, would it be tapped from the attack?
Q5 - If Vorapede was not the target of boomerang, but "died" (e.g. momentous fall, or terror) during combat, would it have summoning sickness?
My (limited) understanding is that undying works like a new creature, so Q1-no, Q2-no, Q3-no, Q4-no, Q5-yes.
I just want to confirm:
If there was another legal target, for example if Primeval Titan is on the board before Tooth and Nail is cast, it would not change anything. i.e. After worldspine wurm is exiled, there is a
legal targetcreature on the board that could have been a legal target, but the target of "worldspine wurm" has already been nominated and cannot change after Path to Exile has resolved.Am I correct?
Player 2: Plays path to exile in response:
- Scenario one, target is Kiki Jiki
- Scenario two, target is worldspine.
My understanding of the stack:
Scenario one
Kiki Jiki's ability is on the stack. Therefore, when Kiki-Jiki gets exiled, the ability still resolves and Player 1 has a copy of worldspine.
Scenario two
Kiki Jiki's ability still resolves. However, before it resolves, path-to-exile has removed the target. Therefore Player 1 does not have a copy of worldspine, nor the original, so zero wurms.
Scenario three
Tooth and Nail resolves, but Player 1 does not tap Kiki in the main phase. Moving to end-step, Player 2 decides to cast Path to Exile on Worldspine. Player 1 then taps Kiki Jiki in response. Kiki resolves first, and Player 1 has a copy of the wurm. Then PtE resolves, and the original worldspine is exiled. The copy of worldspine will soon be sacrificed and at the end of the turn stands Kiki Jiki and 3x5/5 wurms. (I understand the copy is sacrificed at the "beginning of the next end step" so it depends a little when PtE was played, possibly they have the copy for Player 2's turn. This question is more about how the stack operates)
edit: if anyone checks this thread, note that I had edited this scenario about 2 minutes after I got my response, hence why I mention something in scenario three that peteroupc covers - discomute
Am I correct?
Tell what I wish we had, a green non legendary creature that granted haste to some or all creatures
Top 15 big Green Creatures
For casual play (meaning cost of the card is valued, and is its ability to adapt to creature and removal heavy environments, plus multiplayer)
1. Sylvan Primordial
There isn't a lot of debate about Sylvan or Primeval Titan being 1 or 2, but I think top spot in casual goes to Sylvan, because he dominates multiplayer and costs $0.43 instead of $8.49. Aside from being able to attack land, he can smash things like Astral Slide and Ensnaring Bridge that the Emrakul couldn't get through.
2. Primeval Titan
Pick a land, any land. One of the few cards in the game that can fetch non-basic land, so grab yourself a Kessig Wolf Run and a Stomping Ground. Accelerates like not much else.
3. Dungrove Eldar
There is a theme to what creatures I love - protection. Sylvan and Titan don't have it, but you do get a massive advantage from entering in the battlefield. So even if they get smashed straight away, you get something. Dungrove is hexproof, and can grow very quickly. He won't suit every deck, like if you are ramping with elves and enchantments, but at $0.64 he is a bargain.
4. Carnage Tyrant
It depends on your meta, but throwing down big creatures can be difficult against blue, especially if they can draw (e.g. cryptic command, exclude. He is midrange at $8.69 but a great addition and once he is down, he is down.
5. Worldspine Wurm
He's 15/15. The end.
No, well actually his ability makes him very strong. There are 4 cards that seem dominate my meta: lightning bolt, path to exile, crackling doom and wrath of god. Different tanks deal with some or all of them. Emrakul can take PtE, but can't take wrath or CD. Blightsteel can take wrath, but can't take CD or path. In fact, Worldspine only cannot handle one: Path to exile. Okay, it does die to the others, but you get 3x5/5 trample wurms. Furthermore, he is non legendary so Karakas won't bother him. And if you want to run Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker... think of the wurms!
He is 11cmc so at $8.96 so under most of the tanks. Plus we are green so we will cheat things out. Important, his CMC isn't caught up in a great bonus when he is cast. So you get full value from Tooth and Nail or Elvish Piper.
Also combos well one of my favourite casual instants, Momentous Fall. (Did I tell you about the time deflecting palm was played on a xenagos inspired 30/30 worldspine and I had to cast momentous fall? Hilarity!)
6. Xenagos, God of Revels
$15.49 and not really a big creature and not entirely green... but amazing with Tooth and Nail. And really, just handy in any deck. She shouldn't be here, but she is. That's how good she is.
7. Hornet Queen
On face value not as good as the others... but $1.52 and deals with a lot of things that Green find difficult. Flyers and being out muscled. Also great with Kiki Jiki. And I just like the flavour.
8. Thornling
$2.05 and comes with a range of abilities. Great value at 5cmc.
9. Vorapede
Super underrated card for casual play. $0.67. Sticks around. Goes well with Momentous Fall. Also well with another green mainstay, eternal witness as it's a bit of a 4 for 1.
10. Endraze Forerunners
Okay well all know this is a cheap version of the real deal, craterhoof behemoth. But its $0.49 instead of $58.69. And nearly as good. Built for weenie armies, one of the tanks that goes well with elves.
11. Omnath, Locus of Mana
3CMC with no protection and $22. Perhaps should be higher on this list. But "the battery" is amazing if you can keep him around a turn or two. Play him with 5 mana available and you are guaranteed 7 mana next turn. 6 available then 9. Tooth and Nail happens a lot earlier. Plus he gets big. You get it.
12. Stonehoof Chieftain
Great card, okay its 8cmc at $9.99 but really beefs up your army. Not a lot to dislike.
13. Leatherback Baloth / Steel Leaf Champion
3 CMC is as low as I can go without protection. At least outside of lightning bolt range. These are grouped together because they are often found together in a devotion deck. But really good anywhere.
14. Gaea's Revenge
A really underrated card. $0.49 the cheap version of the Tyrant. That extra CMC hurts but if you are on a budget I think its amazing.
15. Blightsteel Colossus
Blightsteel is an absolute tank and is the only one that seems to handle those deathtouch first strike tokens my mate generates... okay not getting off topic but there isn't a better tank out to Tooth and Nail with Xenagos but at $58.88 he probably doesn't belong on this list. But it's so awesome.
Honourable mentions:
Genesis Moldgraf Monstrosity Thrun, the Last Troll Silvos, Rogue Elemental Cloudthresher Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma elderscale wurm
The best green creature in existence:
Sakura-Tribe Elder
Not a tank so not on the list. This the most underrated awesome card in existence. $1.25. Ramps but cannot be taken away from you. You will always get your forest, plus, probably a body to block a creature. Also can find you that mountain if you have xenagos in your hand. Or just a land if you have more than one colour. Why don't more people love this? It's #1 on my green list.
Dishonourable mentions (controvesry!):
The Eldrazi Titans
You aren't green or fun you're lame. Also you are friggen expensive in $$. We like you cheat you out and a lot of your cmc is in your cast ability. The exception is Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Partially because he is such a tank he is worth cheating out, partially because he is half the price as Ulamog the others, partially because path to exile is sooooo common, and partially because he can mill-proof your deck.
(Yes I am aware this is a bit rich considering #15 so what of it?)
Gigantosaurus, Ghalta, primal hunger
High CMC and no protection. Gigan with no evasion and Ghalta is $9.00 - its effect is close to (if not completely in) the win-more field.
Rhonas the Indomitable
$13.99 and too close to win more for me to like. (Edit actually I think I like him - 04 Jan 20)
Kalonian Hydra Primordial Hydra
I'm sorry - I want protection for your CMC. And if you don't give it to me, give me haste. Instead, you have cards without protection which take 2-3 turns to get going. Pass all day.
impervious greatwurm 16/16 and indestructible sounds like a match made in heaven, especially since he's easier to get out with convoke. But no trample or any evasion? Stopped by a 1/1 goblin really. Pass.
So... not sure if the TS is still around, but if anyone finds this thread, a lot to check out
bigblu - definitely an option to look at... Cat snake up there with a razorfin hunter as having the oddest parents.
As I understand it, the effect would be placed on the stack, then I would have to sacrifice a creature (say Kiki and Worldspine are out, I'd have to sacrifice worldspine) and then the effect would still happen and I'd get a copy of worldspine for that turn... is that right?
Playtesting has revealed FTW is correct it sucks to get stuck on 5 mana especially with a Titan or two in your hand.
In other news I don't think I counted very well and I could actually take 4 of that list... Now thinking
1x Carnage Tyrant
4x Dungrove Elder
1x Gaea's Revenge
1x Genesis
1x Nylea, God of the Hunt
3x Primeval Titan
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Sylvan Primordial
1x Thornling
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Traproot Kami
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Yavimaya Elder
2x Harmonize
2x Kodama's Reach
4x Search for Tomorrow
Land (23)
1x Cinder Glade
21x Forest
1x Kessig Wolf Run
Instant (2)
2x Momentous Fall
Planeswalker (1)
1x Vivien Reid
1x Akroma's Memorial
1x Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
1x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1x Vorapede
That being said, I rarely have an issue with cards in my hand, so much as getting stuck on land, so I am wondering if more Kodoma's Reach or even Khalni Heart Expedition might suit it better than Harmonize.
That is why I was leaning towards Thornling too. Akroma's is sooo tempting though... Think you might be right about Vivien. 5 is so much easier to hit than 7 in this deck too.
1x Carnage Tyrant
4x Dungrove Elder
1x Gaea's Revenge
1x Genesis
3x Primeval Titan
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
4x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Sylvan Primordial
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Traproot Kami
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2x Yavimaya Elder
1x Cinder Glade
21x Forest
1x Kessig Wolf Run
Sorcery (6)
2x Kodama's Reach
4x Search for Tomorrow
Instant (3)
3x Momentous Fall
Choose 3 of the following (9)
1x Goreclaw, Terror of Qal Sisma
1x Surrak, the Hunt Caller
1x Thornling
1x Vivien Reid
1x Vorapede
1x Akroma's Memorial
1x Sylvan Primordial
1x Primeval Titan
1x Nylea, God of the Hunt
Any thoughts on the final 3? It's a green deck with some interesting creatures that are generally resistant to removal.
A friend uses it regularly with stuffy doll.
PS. snapping sailback>fungosaur