Of the 20 Jund lists that made day 2 it seemed that most, if not all, of them ran Bloodbraid Elf (including Reid Duke and Jadine Klomparens). I am sure that if these players are still jamming 4 Elf in the deck that it's most likely the correct move but I will say that it can also be done without it. Jund is always about how you build it to challenge the field and I felt I was able to compete with the 75 I brought.
Thanks for reading and let me know what you all think.
First of all, congratulations on your day 2! I'd also feel good with that record, myself
The lower curve does help. I agree that Liliana, the Last Hope usually underperforms and that's why my singleton resides in the sideboard. I don't feel she justifies another 3 drop in the main board.
I do disagree on the abrupt decay take. My comments are based on personal preference, of course, but many Boggles matches are won through favorable trades using abrupt decay as the game changer. It is also nice to have it vs. young pyro mancer based control decks. Of course, in many matches it is sideboarded out...
As a personal note, this week I'll try a list with 3 BBEs, 14 one drops and only 6 three drops as an attempt to improve my game vs. Humans and Hollow one. I feel that my cascades could get totally irrelevant, so I'd really like to have your take on your mana curve (other than not running 4 drops at all, that is).
Truthfully, I really liked playing with only 3 BBE. Like I said, every time I saw Kalitas, it was great, and I think I would have felt worse about things a few times if it had been a BBE. I am going to be running back the same list again today in a few hours at a different store and I will try to take better notes so I can give better results round by round.
Thanks, much appreciated. I want to try a 3 BBE list, just not sure wich creature could replace here. Kalitas seems like an excellent (albeit a little slow) option for the kind of matchups I had trouble with, such as Kiki-chord, Huamns or Abzan counters (wich I think strategy-wise should be favourable to us).
The only real difference between Wednesday and tonight was the fact I was running a Tireless Tracker main just to try it out in this meta, and I don't think I like it, even for the board. I had cut a Kolaghan's Command to fit it in, and put it in the board cutting out a Scavenging Ooze to do this. Tonight was the only time that I've got to activate and utilize the Treetop after almost a month of playing 2-3 times a week. I was almost ready to cut it, but now I am not sure.
As for the matchups, tonight I played RG Eldrazi round 1 and 2, I won 1 and lost 1. Round 2 I lost due to flooding games 1 and 3. Round 3 was GW taxes with Voice of Resurgence, Collected Company, and Renegade Rallier and they just outvalued me. Didn't see any of my sideboard cards game 2 which would have potentially changed a lot. Round 4 was basically the same as round 3, just without Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Leonin Arbiter and Collected Company. Round 4 went so much better than round 3.
I really loved Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet every time I saw him. In one of the games, I had a Bloodbraid and Kalitas in hand on T4 and I chose to run out the Bloodbraid before the Kalitas for the simple reason of trying to draw out a path that might be in my opponents hand. Actually cascaded into an Inquisition and there wasn't a path in hand.
May I ask how did playing 3 BBEs felt? Yesterday we played a non - unified modern trio with two Junds and a Jeskai. Jund record was 0-4 for us, losing to Boggles, Storm, Humans and abzan counters. I feel that other than boggles we should be at least somewhat favored in those matches ; bad luck notwithstanding (as in, I lost a game to Humans with both blood moon and anger of the gods in hand due to having only 2 lands even after drawing 7 cards thanks to a confidant), both my partner and I felt that the Elf was just stuck in our hands in those matches. I would have really loved some finks main board for them, maybe. But I can't find any 3-BBE list, it seems.
As far as non-BBE threats, I'd like to try Tireless Tracker at some point, has anyone had experience running it? Not sure if it's right in this meta, but regardless of the top end, the deck still seems quite good and you guys won an excited convert tonight.
My feelings exactly. Have tried 1 & 2 mainboard & sideboard Tireless tracker and I have to agree with hellkite12: she does not belong in the mainboard ATM as she is -yet another- 3 drop wich you should deploy on turn 4 to make sure you get at least a clue. Once online it can be a real threat while also digging for answers.
In the mainboard I think it is a little clunky,I run 2 in the sideboard and it is a powerhouse against control. I also side her in (too much I think) against decks wich leave you with a lot of dead cards and requiere specific answers, such as Lantern control.
Honestly, if I had more experience as a player, I think I'd ran a single Hazoret and a more flexible sideboard as FlyingDelver proposes. However, in my local meta she works wonders (specially since she's so easy to splash with blood moon).
Yeah that mana issue is very strange. I think nothing can be changed. I have to deal with opening hands which literally have only 2 lands and awkward mana also (like Ravine + Twilight Mire) or have 6 lands as my opnening 7. Its baffling for me.
Delver, as you know I've tried 23 lands and also run blood moon, wich I think demands for 3 swamps. I don't even run a mountain and if I had to complain about my mana base it would only be because of the need to bolt myself against storm fetching, or the fear to Field of Ruin. But my mana base feels very solid even running just 3 fastlands and 3 ravines. I do notice you have a filter land and if I didn't missread you left the TTV out... I hated the blooming marsh acting as the 5th manland mostly because it couldnt be fetched (even more than missing the BBE drop) and I can imagine some odd starts with the filter land.
As for the Hollow one matchup, I have to agree: I don't figure out just how to correctly sideboard. However, my record is pretty good against it (I'll repeat I don't feel I have met a seasoned player playing the deck yet).
My logic for sideboarding is:
- IoK out, CB in (this is mostly on the play). IoK can be great to gain a few turns, but it doesn't deal with anger or hollow one itself if present. Thoughtseize is a keeper. Collective brutality can act as pesky removal and also drain if we get on a low life total.
- abrupt decay and fatal push out out, Anger and grudge in. Abrupt decay feels clunky, and Fatal push is simply less versatile in this MU; big creatures are resilient and small creatures die to the more flexible bolt.
- Since I personally take out 3 IoK, 2 decays and 3 Fatal pushes and side in 2 nihil spellbomb, 2 anger of the gods, 1 ancient grudge and 2 collective brutality I have an extra slot wich usually gets eaten by kitchen finks (I'd use the third ooze if I had one in the side).
Mostly my game plan is try to leave them with a single creature at all times (busted draws notwithstanding) so I can either take their Hollows with K-command or their Anglers with Liliana of the veil.
As discussed, I also feel that tarmogoyf is the MVP with Scavenging ooze and bolt having honorable mentions. I think it is one of those matches where you need to switch the gears when possible and have them defending as early as possible.
Why do you think IOK misses too many key cards and then decide to play arguable more narrow cards like Despise and Duress?
I personally think, if you feel IOK misses too much I would just up the TS count and maybe play a 3/3 split.
I am not a fan of maindeck CB, being a CMC2 cost card really downgrades the card as a discard spell which is the slot's purpose imo.
Well, I don't think Duress is as narrow as IoK for one. IoK can usually hit enablers, but it's very bad at hitting the business spells in a deck. IoK cannot stop a Jace, Scapeshift, Gift's Ungiven, Past in Flames, Empty the Warrens, Chandra, Cryptic Command, Through the Breach, or several others. While on the other hand, the class of card which Duress misses, creatures, are what a deck of removal spells is already strong against.
I also feel IoK can be very narrow at the moment. While there are some strong creatures with(pseudo)ETB abilities(Snapcaster mage and Eidolon of the great revel come to mind), I think that the ability to hit other targets is more valuable. Personally I have tried 2/2/2, 2/3/1, 3/3/0, 3/1/2 CB/IoK/TS split and 2/2/2 has worked the best for me, but FlyingDelver is right: CB does make the deck even more clunky, and maindecking it negates additional discard in the sideboard wich is something I don't really like as I feel we should be somewhat favoured to Combo decks. I'll give maindeck Duress a chance, I did not hate it at all when it was in the sideboard.
Regarding the community's feelings about Jund: I run a list with almost zero one-ofs (only Maelstrom pulse in the maindeck) and I run a 24 card list with 3 swamps and 2 forests allowing sideboard Blood moon, with the mnana curve FlyingDelver suggests. Only from time to time I feel the deck is excesively clunky, and I for one feel favored against both humans and Hollow one (although admitedly Hollow One doesn't have great pilots in my meta). I do run 2 Anger of the gods tough, as creature-based aggro is thriving in my meta. If anything, I feel it is way less likely to draw the "wrong part of the deck" than before the unbans; in matchups where I feel that card "sorting" is critical, I have a tendency to overuse my two sideboadrd Tireless tracker, so maybe that helps.
All in all, I think we haven't reached the optimal list and as we get close to it the meta changes in response. Maybe we could poll wich pilots feel the deck is too clunky in relation to the amount of manlands they run, as ATM I'm running only 3 Raging ravine and 3 Blackcleave Cliffs with 2 more basics than usual, thus feeling a little faster.
@andyburgos If you run the same maindeck like mine, it would mean that you have a mana curve looking like this after the changes you made:
10 One drops
15 Two drops
7 Three drops
4 Four drops
Which equals to a average CMC of: 2.14
Now, with 24 lands and 4 manlands, I don't like playing more 2 drops than needed. I personally want to be able to play CMC 1 spell + CMC 2 spell on turn 3 fairly consistantly. Let alone for this reason I am not a fan of maindecking CB.
What is the reason for you to play CB over IOK in general? I would argue for discard purposes IOK is miles better on average. For lifegain purposes IOK does similar things, since IOK is besides our cheap removal one of the best cards we have against aggro decks. So only the removal mode would be left in my thinking. And regarding that, I personally think I would much rather have a more versatile discard for the overall format than the extra removal. Playing the 24 land approach with more CMC 1 cards already has more removal compared to more popular lists.
I just don't want to have multiple 2 drops in my hand when needing to operate on 3 lands only basically (which you have to accept when you run that 24 land approach).
As for your sideboard, I would cut the Surgicals completely and run 1 Cage. Surgical is a card that always will be in the gauntlet for Jund, but right now its not impactful enough. Then you have an extra slot which you can use to bring back CB to the SB. The second slot is obtained by cutting a Tracker and either keeping the singleton Tracker or replacing it with a more impactful bomb like Huntmaster or Hazoret.
Besides that I don't think Blood Moon is a card that belongs in Jund at all, not now and also not the in the past. There was only a small period of time where BM was acceptable for me, which was during a big popularity of Bant Eldrazi. Maybe in the future, but especially with the printing of Damping Sphere, i do not believe so.
Very insightful (also thanks to hellkite12]). Maindeck CB was mostly to improve my game against burn, and at that you are right that IoK is not the card to cut.
I'll take out the surgical extractions and keep 2 nihil spellbomb for my next LGS, as that will allow me to restore the proper IoK and relegate CB to the side. Hazoret or Huntmaster are both options to cut the second tracker, as I think they hit similar matches.
As for the single ancient grudge, is it justifiable with 2 maindeck K-Commands and 2 sweepers on the board, or should I respect Lantern and Affinity more? I feel that maybe 1x Engineered explosives replacing a single Anger of the gods should help in the Lantern and Boggles matchups, too.
FlyingDelver, as I stated before I'm happy to see that we reached about the same maindeck. However I am not confortable with my sideboard just yet, and I'd like the comumunity (and yours, of course) insight on that regard.
Didn't miss the extra discard even facing Grixis control, and while Blood moon is a meta call I felt that those two extra sideboard slots were determinating.
What matchups do you think I would be giving up to by cutting 2 IoK?
I have been lurking this thread for a few years now. I have been trying to play Jund for over a year now. I started playing online everyday about 2 months ago. Since then, I have only won 14 out of 75 matches. I do not know what exactly I am doing wrong. It is very frustrating to lose so much. I have a very similar deck that you all use and I follow the primer religiously. I seem to get close to winning about half of the matches but always lose to straight up nonsense. When I play at locals, I seem to do better, I have never done better than 2-2 but I figure that is because all the guys at my locals are just as bad if not worse than me when it comes to casting a spell.
I have found that 24 lands is bad but good. I flood continuously at 24. I feel that 14 creatures is not enough. I rarely get enough spells or creatures to cast in the entire game. I often find myself just astonished with how bad my luck is when it comes to lands. I either draw none or all. Nothing ever in between.
I am really starting to doubt that this deck is right for me but I fear that if I choose another different deck, that I will suffer the same problems and not win hardly ever. I have thought about going to burn or E Tron. Perhaps the entire MTG thing is not for me. Any generic advise for a super scrub noob? Any help is appreciated. I like the deck, I like the interactions, and like the lack of unfairness the deck has but I cannot handle losing at such a disturbing pace with a supposedly powerful deck.
Just my 2 cents: I played traverse shadow for about a year and tried every single version and never got good results. Then played burn for 6 months, and at the moment I play Jund making a top 3 in about half of my FNM nights. I'm sure those results are not spectacular at all, but have been playing MTG for less than two years.
Sometimes self-confidence is very important, so using a more linear deck like Burn can help a lot (or at least that was my case). In the end I dropped burn as I always loved Jund and sometimes I just felt I won or lose on the topdeck.
As for the land / spell / creature rate, maybe work on your mulligan strategy. I tend to agree that I would love to have a couple Tasigurs or trackers in the mainboard for additional clock, but that is not possible so we must prioritize. I think hellkite12 covered the rest. Good luck!
@andyburgos I love the approach thus far, cannot recommend it enough. You need to be aware that you lack the extra umph in the mirror though.
I have to say including TTV in my 24 landsuite seems particularly interesting especially due to the mentioned lack in powerlevel for the mirror. Manlands are usually what stay after the dust settles and can win you the game easily. Therefore I think TTV is definitely not a card you would miss in aggro matchups, but in attrition based and grindy matchups. And I am looking to see how bad TTV is in aggro matchups. If I don't see a significant impact for the aggro matchups, I think its safe to run 4 manlands in the 24 land build.
Thanks for sharing, I wholeheartedly agree on that last sentence.
I feel that many decisitions are close to mutually exclusive, i.e. 2xTireless tracker vs. TTV. I get from what you are saying that Hazoret is improving chances in the mirror, so I'll lend that and give it a go since I am only running one Abrupt Decay at the moment and can't find place for a second one for the life of me.
I tend to mulligan hands without some clock in my hands against burn (goyf or hazoret if you run it). Keeping with the hazoret in hand has costed me a game before though. I did not have much removal and a Guide ended up attacking me several times, revealing lands quite a bit - meaning my hazoret could never get online. Also, this is a matchup where mulliganing does not cost as much as usual. The games we loose we often loose with cards in hand, and the same goes for the ones we win. We don't need many cards, we need the right ones.
As a former burn player, I couldn't agree more.
Quote from FlyingDelver »"url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/midrange/770899-jund?comment=4599 »
Since I am actually curious about the issue and on Reid's opinion, I am giving Treetop a try, because the heck why not. This is my updated list for the upcoming week:
The things which are in my opinion flexible in this list, are the following things:
Landbase: The fourth basic can be a ninth fetchland or as I will try it now, a Treetop.
Creatures: With the high amount of one mana spells I am happy with the creature suite, the only thing doable is adding an Ooze maybe.
Spells: I would recommend going for that approach, I personally love the spellsuite as soon as I touched it. It interesting to consider - 1 Command and +1 LtLH, but I like 2 Commands for now, especially with only 1 Grudge.
Sideboard: I honestly am considering the third Fulminator to be flexible, maybe its a good idea to cut it for a Hazoret. Golgari Charm could be a second Grudge or a Maelstrom Pulse and EE could be an Anger. Grafdigger's Cage or Ooze could be one more Spellbomb. The rest is kinda fixed for me.
All in all, a template for my approach could be this:
24 lands: 3-4 manlands (will see what turns out to be more right)
14-15 creatures (only 11 one mana spells if 15)
22 Noncreature Spells:
11-12 one mana spells (4/2 discard, 3/3 bolt/push, if 15 creatures then cut a Push supposedly)
3 hard removal (2 terminate and 1 Pulse)
3-4 flexible tools (1-2 Command (only 1 if you play LtLH main, 1 Decay, 1 Pulse)
4-5 Lili PWs.
Sideboard:
2-3 Fulminator
3 GY hate pieces ( if 3 Ooze main, only 2 can work)
3 extra removal/sweeper for smaller creatures (EE/Anger, LtLH, 1 Grim)
2 artifact/enchantment hate (Grudge, Charm)
2 CB
2 Finks
FlyingDelver, are you still running this list? How did it feel? After the initial very good results I took [card}Blood moon[/card] out of the mainboard and still got wrecked by Affinity (some bad luck, tough) and Burn (with a mulligan down to 5). Loosing to affinity is a real wake-up call for me and I think that you are right about the 12 1-CMC spells to gain early interaction.
BTW, I've played 24 lands with 3 RaRa and 1 TTV and replaced the TTV with a forest since and haven't missed it. The card is solid, but I don't feel it wins any matchup on it's own and since it is not a basic and it can't be fetched it breaks it for me.
This is really interesting as I went 4-1-0 yesterday at my FNM with a very similar deck. I know this is might be a controversial list, but it is based on the amount of Scapeshift and Junk that sees play around here and the ocasional tron.
Now I know this is a very sub-optimal list, but sideboarding felt much better than before. I liked maindeck blood moon as I don't really like Fulminator Mage, but maybe maelstrom pulse could belong to the side?
FlyingDelver, it is interesting that we both came to the same conclusion (even with you running 25 lands at the moment and me running 23 back then). We both ended up with the same list, -1 twilight mire +1 treetop village and -1 fatal push +1 abrupt decay. Even Liliana, the last hope in the side. I really think we are reaching a concensus.
In my current meta, Tron and Junk are starting to creep up to prey on the (many many) Jund decks. I'll give Blood Moon a try, even tough the Master has already ruled this one out.
So what can we say about that? Have people over time figured out that 24 lands is too few? Or was the meta forgiving enough that running 24 lands only was viable? IDK personally.
Thanks for the info, FlyingDelver!
It would be nice to know how many lands were run by each list; I understand (from Reid Duke's article) that a higher number of man-lands were run back then, thus the recent "addition" of treetop village. Maybe lists with 25 lands run an extra man-land?
I'm kind of surprised no lists are running 3x k command, that card feels so powerful now. I used to feel very meh about it.
On a last minute meta-call I decided to place LtlH in the SB and leave the 3rd K-Command in the main at a FNM swarming with Burn and Affinity.
I have been very happy with the feel of the deck, 3-1 (winning the mirror and BW Pox as the loss). Mana base is shaky at best (will find place for the 24th land) and SB needs some work, so only posting the MB here.
- Missing 3 blacleave cliffs ATM, painlands have been working great for me so I'd consider trying 3 fastlands to make sure you can have open mana in the 4th turn
- Dreadbore won me a game in the mirror, not sure it belongs to the MB but it is worth considering
- I'd love an extra treetop village but I just need a 2nd Overgrown tomb, maybe i'll try a 2/2 split with Raging Ravine.
Moving foward I think I'll cut an Abrupt Decay for the 2nd Overgrown Tomb and try a 2/2 split bewtween RaRa and T.V. Overall the deck felt just fine and until control emerges in my current meta I'm sorry to say LtlH belongs to my SB.
First of all, congratulations on your day 2! I'd also feel good with that record, myself
The lower curve does help. I agree that Liliana, the Last Hope usually underperforms and that's why my singleton resides in the sideboard. I don't feel she justifies another 3 drop in the main board.
I do disagree on the abrupt decay take. My comments are based on personal preference, of course, but many Boggles matches are won through favorable trades using abrupt decay as the game changer. It is also nice to have it vs. young pyro mancer based control decks. Of course, in many matches it is sideboarded out...
As a personal note, this week I'll try a list with 3 BBEs, 14 one drops and only 6 three drops as an attempt to improve my game vs. Humans and Hollow one. I feel that my cascades could get totally irrelevant, so I'd really like to have your take on your mana curve (other than not running 4 drops at all, that is).
Thanks, much appreciated. I want to try a 3 BBE list, just not sure wich creature could replace here. Kalitas seems like an excellent (albeit a little slow) option for the kind of matchups I had trouble with, such as Kiki-chord, Huamns or Abzan counters (wich I think strategy-wise should be favourable to us).
May I ask how did playing 3 BBEs felt? Yesterday we played a non - unified modern trio with two Junds and a Jeskai. Jund record was 0-4 for us, losing to Boggles, Storm, Humans and abzan counters. I feel that other than boggles we should be at least somewhat favored in those matches ; bad luck notwithstanding (as in, I lost a game to Humans with both blood moon and anger of the gods in hand due to having only 2 lands even after drawing 7 cards thanks to a confidant), both my partner and I felt that the Elf was just stuck in our hands in those matches. I would have really loved some finks main board for them, maybe. But I can't find any 3-BBE list, it seems.
My feelings exactly. Have tried 1 & 2 mainboard & sideboard Tireless tracker and I have to agree with hellkite12: she does not belong in the mainboard ATM as she is -yet another- 3 drop wich you should deploy on turn 4 to make sure you get at least a clue. Once online it can be a real threat while also digging for answers.
In the mainboard I think it is a little clunky,I run 2 in the sideboard and it is a powerhouse against control. I also side her in (too much I think) against decks wich leave you with a lot of dead cards and requiere specific answers, such as Lantern control.
Honestly, if I had more experience as a player, I think I'd ran a single Hazoret and a more flexible sideboard as FlyingDelver proposes. However, in my local meta she works wonders (specially since she's so easy to splash with blood moon).
Delver, as you know I've tried 23 lands and also run blood moon, wich I think demands for 3 swamps. I don't even run a mountain and if I had to complain about my mana base it would only be because of the need to bolt myself against storm fetching, or the fear to Field of Ruin. But my mana base feels very solid even running just 3 fastlands and 3 ravines. I do notice you have a filter land and if I didn't missread you left the TTV out... I hated the blooming marsh acting as the 5th manland mostly because it couldnt be fetched (even more than missing the BBE drop) and I can imagine some odd starts with the filter land.
As for the Hollow one matchup, I have to agree: I don't figure out just how to correctly sideboard. However, my record is pretty good against it (I'll repeat I don't feel I have met a seasoned player playing the deck yet).
My logic for sideboarding is:
- IoK out, CB in (this is mostly on the play). IoK can be great to gain a few turns, but it doesn't deal with anger or hollow one itself if present. Thoughtseize is a keeper. Collective brutality can act as pesky removal and also drain if we get on a low life total.
- abrupt decay and fatal push out out, Anger and grudge in. Abrupt decay feels clunky, and Fatal push is simply less versatile in this MU; big creatures are resilient and small creatures die to the more flexible bolt.
- Since I personally take out 3 IoK, 2 decays and 3 Fatal pushes and side in 2 nihil spellbomb, 2 anger of the gods, 1 ancient grudge and 2 collective brutality I have an extra slot wich usually gets eaten by kitchen finks (I'd use the third ooze if I had one in the side).
Mostly my game plan is try to leave them with a single creature at all times (busted draws notwithstanding) so I can either take their Hollows with K-command or their Anglers with Liliana of the veil.
As discussed, I also feel that tarmogoyf is the MVP with Scavenging ooze and bolt having honorable mentions. I think it is one of those matches where you need to switch the gears when possible and have them defending as early as possible.
I also feel IoK can be very narrow at the moment. While there are some strong creatures with(pseudo)ETB abilities(Snapcaster mage and Eidolon of the great revel come to mind), I think that the ability to hit other targets is more valuable. Personally I have tried 2/2/2, 2/3/1, 3/3/0, 3/1/2 CB/IoK/TS split and 2/2/2 has worked the best for me, but FlyingDelver is right: CB does make the deck even more clunky, and maindecking it negates additional discard in the sideboard wich is something I don't really like as I feel we should be somewhat favoured to Combo decks. I'll give maindeck Duress a chance, I did not hate it at all when it was in the sideboard.
Regarding the community's feelings about Jund: I run a list with almost zero one-ofs (only Maelstrom pulse in the maindeck) and I run a 24 card list with 3 swamps and 2 forests allowing sideboard Blood moon, with the mnana curve FlyingDelver suggests. Only from time to time I feel the deck is excesively clunky, and I for one feel favored against both humans and Hollow one (although admitedly Hollow One doesn't have great pilots in my meta). I do run 2 Anger of the gods tough, as creature-based aggro is thriving in my meta. If anything, I feel it is way less likely to draw the "wrong part of the deck" than before the unbans; in matchups where I feel that card "sorting" is critical, I have a tendency to overuse my two sideboadrd Tireless tracker, so maybe that helps.
All in all, I think we haven't reached the optimal list and as we get close to it the meta changes in response. Maybe we could poll wich pilots feel the deck is too clunky in relation to the amount of manlands they run, as ATM I'm running only 3 Raging ravine and 3 Blackcleave Cliffs with 2 more basics than usual, thus feeling a little faster.
Very insightful (also thanks to hellkite12]). Maindeck CB was mostly to improve my game against burn, and at that you are right that IoK is not the card to cut.
I'll take out the surgical extractions and keep 2 nihil spellbomb for my next LGS, as that will allow me to restore the proper IoK and relegate CB to the side. Hazoret or Huntmaster are both options to cut the second tracker, as I think they hit similar matches.
As for the single ancient grudge, is it justifiable with 2 maindeck K-Commands and 2 sweepers on the board, or should I respect Lantern and Affinity more? I feel that maybe 1x Engineered explosives replacing a single Anger of the gods should help in the Lantern and Boggles matchups, too.
Thanks again! Much appreciated.
FlyingDelver, as I stated before I'm happy to see that we reached about the same maindeck. However I am not confortable with my sideboard just yet, and I'd like the comumunity (and yours, of course) insight on that regard.
Yesterday I tried 2 maindeck Collective brutality replacing 2 Inquisition of kozilek and ran this sideboard:
1 Ancient grudge
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Blood moon
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Kitchen finks
2 Anger of the gods
2 Tireless tracker
Didn't miss the extra discard even facing Grixis control, and while Blood moon is a meta call I felt that those two extra sideboard slots were determinating.
What matchups do you think I would be giving up to by cutting 2 IoK?
Just my 2 cents: I played traverse shadow for about a year and tried every single version and never got good results. Then played burn for 6 months, and at the moment I play Jund making a top 3 in about half of my FNM nights. I'm sure those results are not spectacular at all, but have been playing MTG for less than two years.
Sometimes self-confidence is very important, so using a more linear deck like Burn can help a lot (or at least that was my case). In the end I dropped burn as I always loved Jund and sometimes I just felt I won or lose on the topdeck.
As for the land / spell / creature rate, maybe work on your mulligan strategy. I tend to agree that I would love to have a couple Tasigurs or trackers in the mainboard for additional clock, but that is not possible so we must prioritize. I think hellkite12 covered the rest. Good luck!
Thanks for sharing, I wholeheartedly agree on that last sentence.
I feel that many decisitions are close to mutually exclusive, i.e. 2xTireless tracker vs. TTV. I get from what you are saying that Hazoret is improving chances in the mirror, so I'll lend that and give it a go since I am only running one Abrupt Decay at the moment and can't find place for a second one for the life of me.
As a former burn player, I couldn't agree more.
FlyingDelver, are you still running this list? How did it feel? After the initial very good results I took [card}Blood moon[/card] out of the mainboard and still got wrecked by Affinity (some bad luck, tough) and Burn (with a mulligan down to 5). Loosing to affinity is a real wake-up call for me and I think that you are right about the 12 1-CMC spells to gain early interaction.
BTW, I've played 24 lands with 3 RaRa and 1 TTV and replaced the TTV with a forest since and haven't missed it. The card is solid, but I don't feel it wins any matchup on it's own and since it is not a basic and it can't be fetched it breaks it for me.
This is really interesting as I went 4-1-0 yesterday at my FNM with a very similar deck. I know this is might be a controversial list, but it is based on the amount of Scapeshift and Junk that sees play around here and the ocasional tron.
3 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Liliana of the Veil
Enchantments
2 Blood Moon
Instants
2 Fatal Push
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
1 Dreadbore
2 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
Now I know this is a very sub-optimal list, but sideboarding felt much better than before. I liked maindeck blood moon as I don't really like Fulminator Mage, but maybe maelstrom pulse could belong to the side?
FlyingDelver, it is interesting that we both came to the same conclusion (even with you running 25 lands at the moment and me running 23 back then). We both ended up with the same list, -1 twilight mire +1 treetop village and -1 fatal push +1 abrupt decay. Even Liliana, the last hope in the side. I really think we are reaching a concensus.
In my current meta, Tron and Junk are starting to creep up to prey on the (many many) Jund decks. I'll give Blood Moon a try, even tough the Master has already ruled this one out.
Thanks for the info, FlyingDelver!
It would be nice to know how many lands were run by each list; I understand (from Reid Duke's article) that a higher number of man-lands were run back then, thus the recent "addition" of treetop village. Maybe lists with 25 lands run an extra man-land?
Regards!
On a last minute meta-call I decided to place LtlH in the SB and leave the 3rd K-Command in the main at a FNM swarming with Burn and Affinity.
I have been very happy with the feel of the deck, 3-1 (winning the mirror and BW Pox as the loss). Mana base is shaky at best (will find place for the 24th land) and SB needs some work, so only posting the MB here.
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Collective Brutality
1 Dreadbore
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Lightning bolt
1 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Blackcleave cliffs
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Sulfurous Springs
3 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
Some notes:
- Missing 3 blacleave cliffs ATM, painlands have been working great for me so I'd consider trying 3 fastlands to make sure you can have open mana in the 4th turn
- Dreadbore won me a game in the mirror, not sure it belongs to the MB but it is worth considering
- I'd love an extra treetop village but I just need a 2nd Overgrown tomb, maybe i'll try a 2/2 split with Raging Ravine.
Moving foward I think I'll cut an Abrupt Decay for the 2nd Overgrown Tomb and try a 2/2 split bewtween RaRa and T.V. Overall the deck felt just fine and until control emerges in my current meta I'm sorry to say LtlH belongs to my SB.
BTW, I beat burn on a very close game with 2 kitchen finks, 1 collective brutality and 1 feed the clan in the side.
Feedback is appreciated!