Get creature cards in your graveyard:
survival of the fittest
One good revive target:
master of cruelties
Does sundial of the infinite stop the exile trigger?
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Jul 8, 2018Carthage posted a message on If Ancestral Recall and Time Walk were unbanned...Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion ForumQuote from Hawk7915 »Quote from Catherine Cook »Quote from Hawk7915 »EDIT: Honestly Black Lotus is probably less scary and format-warping in a theoretical "everything goes EDH" world; at least lotus is a bad topdeck if your hand is empty and a multiplayer environment could cause the player who turn 1 casts their commander or Necropotence to get archenemied to death, and you have to run slightly more obscure cards to break it in half (Auriok Salvagers, for instance).
That is one REALLY bold claim, although I do see your point.
I mean, Black Lotus is still probably a snap include in all EDH decks even with the risk of drawing it turn 10 and having it be a do-nothing. It just replaces a land in deckbuilding. It would be a disgusting, disgusting card and should never ever be unbanned. I just don't think it's as easy to utterly break as Recall or especially Time Walk, and it is only marginally more powerful in a vacuum than Mana Crypt in this format.
There will be very few "turn 10" in such a edh format.
There will rarely be a "turn 4" in such a format.
Jul 6, 2018Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion ForumQuote from PhroX »Quote from Kangodo »
Because it's a ONE MANA SIX/SIX creature.
How hard is it to understand that?
If this was a 20 life one-on-one format, that would be a decent point. But it's not. And in the context of the format, a 1 mana 6/6 with nothing but a couple of keywords is perfectly reasonable.
Except you'd run 30 of them if you could?
Jun 12, 2018spellseeker definitely seems like a 100% include in this deckPosted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
With spellseeker added, I would find room for pull from tomorrow. It's an infinite mana outlet searchable by spellseeker, and honestly not too bad by itself as an instant speed draw spell when you need more cards.
I don't think leyline is particularly good in this deck, it's a dead draw a lot of the time. You don't want to spend 4 mana on your turn for a card that isn't doing something really strong, when you could have cast something like glen elendra archmage or rhystic study, which I think will both have more raw game impact.
Jun 10, 2018Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion ForumQuote from Pokken »Quote from MRHblue »But a dozen or more cards do this, and this isnt even that efficient to do it. Loads of cards can do 'undesirable' things when cast for a lot of mana.
No, there is only one card that ends the game with ~20 mana without having to resolve other cards or attack steps etc. Everything else I've heard named is vulnerable to attacks from every color and some colorless sources. The only thing that interacts with Torment is (1) having a huge board/hand (2) countermagic, (3) having a huge life total (and somewhat platinum effects as well)
I've seen plenty of Tooth and Nails stymied by Routs, Evacuations, Swords to Plowshares, etc., and have Chorded for Linvala or Phyrexian Revoker or similar to disable other combos.
Quote from Carthage »Torment also requires additional cards in really big ramp. Without cards like caged sun or zendikar resurgent, you won't hit a critical mass of mana required to end the game with it.
These mana doublers and other big ramp can be as big or more of a constraint on your deckbuilding than creature combos.
You're neglecting a bunch of angles of attack for generating lots of mana; maybe your playgroups don't ramp very hard. Also, ramp is a deckbuilding constraint of EDH in general -- it's not like having to play Deceiver Exarch or Staff of Domination or Wirewood Lodge in your deck.
I've seen lethal torments off of a single Tezzeret activation (grim monolith + mana vault) and executed uncountable lethal torments with Cabal Coffers, and seen several off of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx as well as Gaea's Cradle. I've also cast lethal torments in Gitrog without coffers (just ramping to 20+ lands which can be done pretty early via a variety of methods). G-wave, animist's awakening, loam/crucible/excavator + azusa, blah blah etc etc. One time my opening hand was manabond + life from the loam + 5 lands
The list goes on and on but suffice to say it's pretty trivial to make huge amounts of mana in EDH.
Again I feel the need to reiterate that I'm not advocating for a banning so much as trying to explain my thoughts on why the card is somewhat unique in its effect.
I'm surprised you aren't complaining about a card like diabolic revelation. At the mana costs you describe, it can search up any win you want, and any answers you want, and any protection you want, and any ramp you want, all at the same time.
You describe a bunch of slow but big ramping strategies and are acting like it's the default for edh decks and doesn't hinder deckbuilding. While it is common, and strong, especially in less competitive metas, it is not the only way to win games of edh. Why ramp to 15 mana when your deck can win off a 5 mana spell by including specific synergistic cards?
Jun 9, 2018Torment also requires additional cards in really big ramp. Without cards like caged sun or zendikar resurgent, you won't hit a critical mass of mana required to end the game with it.Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
These mana doublers and other big ramp can be as big or more of a constraint on your deckbuilding than creature combos.
Jun 9, 2018Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum3) Interacts poorly with the structure of Commander
Torment's "AOE" nature and high rate of mana payoff enables table kills from a much lower rate of mana than has ever been possible a single card. As noted Enter the Infinite is the only close comparison and it requires a bunch of crap to facilitate.
I'll point out that this isn't true, and torment is in fact really low on the list of competitive win conditions.
Some examples of "win the game" spells people use that are *much* less mana than torment:
ad nauseam wins the game if you build your deck around it, and is probably the current gold standard for "win the game" cards, because it's almost a 5 mana version of enter the infinite
food chain wins the game with certain commanders
paradox engine wins the game with sisay or arcum
boonweaver giant wins the game if you have a sac outlet and pattern of rebirth + the other combo pieces in your deck
protean hulk wins the game if you have the right creatures in your deck and it dies
defense of the heart wins the game if it triggers and you have one of many 2 creature combos in your deck
Torment is a very strong card when you want to play slow grinding edh games and everyone builds slow grinding edh decks. This is my preferred way to play edh, games that go 15+ turns. Let's not go overboard and say it's competitive though.
Jun 5, 2018Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion ForumQuote from Pokken »Not necessarily? The most mana efficient "kill everyone with large amounts of mana without needing to resolve another spell" sorcery previously was Exsanguinate if you wanted it to actually kill them, which required X = the highest life total.
Enter the Infinite is close in that it will functionally win you the game, but it requires resolving another spell or three (and hence adds another option for White to interact, both hating on the card draw effect and hating on multiple spells and so on. I also don't know that I agree with the idea that resolving a single 9 (or 11) mana spell should win the game on the spot, doesn't seem like that's really proven.
The difference between other mana outlets and Torment is that Torment can both win by creating a lot of mana and also wins for sure by creating infinite mana; most infinite mana outlets are themselves fairly innocuous and inefficient (say, Valakut Invoker). Genesis Wave has a similar distinction but is interacted with by more angles.
If you compare Torment to similar X-spells like Comet Storm people have used, it takes a truly ridiculous amount of mana to end a table - but Torment does it for an itty bitty bit.
Enter the infinite -> mox diamond -> mana crypt -> chrome mox -> laboratory maniac -> brainstorm
If they try to stop it somehow, you are likely to have force of will and pact of negation
Wins on the spot, all you have to do is have these cards in your deck, because you draw your whole deck, and each card except for laboratory maniac is a card you want to be running anyways in almost every blue deck. Accomplished by something as mundane as having 7 islands and high tide for example.
I don't think torment with 15 mana pumped into it should be the point of discussing it for banning, because at that point you are able to start casting multiple huge mana haymakers in the same turn.
Is torment a problem when cast with X = 6 or 7? That's a far more likely use case and it's competing against cards like razaketh, the foulblooded and rise of the dark realms. I don't think it's a problem at this mana cost. It's strong, but you expect your 8 and 9 mana spells to be strong.
It also scales linearly, whereas haymakers often scale stupidly. What I mean by this is for 5 mana you might expect to draw 4 cards in blue with a card like tidings. Then at 6 mana you might expect to draw 10+ with recurring insight or consecrated sphinx. And then at 12 mana you have enter the infinite which draws every card. Each point of mana increases the effect of the spell more than the previous. Torment is much more linear.
May 3, 2018Cuts I would make:Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
seat of the synod - I think dying to artifact wipes and not producing extra mana with high tide makes this worse than a basic island
prodigal sorcerer - I think the tap effect is almost irrelevant when you could be running something like sea gate oracle instead at the same cmc.
flood of recollection - I think there are stronger sorcery speed effects you could run, notably missing rhystic study, but also you are missing three of blues strongest removals of pongify, rapid hybridization and reality shift
island - inventors' fair I think is good enough to warrant an inclusion over a basic island
island - scavenger grounds is also probably better than a basic island
May 2, 2018Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion ForumQuote from GloriousGoose »
Okay, and? Why are you undercutting your own argument?
Delver isn't banworthy. It's a very good Magic card to be sure, but it doesn't warp any formats. Neither does Serra Ascendant. Yes, it sucks to have it come down on turn 1 and take a few chunks of life from you before you can get online, but I'm much more afraid of a turn 1 Sol Ring because the Ring usually ramps into something scarier than the Ascendant. The Ascendant is also usually a dead card in the late game, which is a very real opportunity cost to running it.
This feels like a salty "nerf scissors, rock is fine" paper post.
Delver of secrets is a big part of grixis delver which is very much warping legacy and the deck is quite likely to see a ban soon.
May 1, 2018You guys expect way too much out of your one mana spells if you think it has to outright, solo, win the game.Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
Backed by something like a greaves or a counterspell or both, someone is almost certainly dying from this thing, and if they aren't dead to it, they are probably crippled down to almost no life.
And you can say "but people will spread it around!", but that's usually not optimal play, that goes against the "build casually, play competitively". More optimally you'd want to hit the biggest threat at the table to take them out ASAP.
This card does not do good things in edh. It should not be legal. The format is worse having it in the card pool.
A. Combo decks don't care about the damage you dealt them or the life you just gained as they plan on winning in one shot.
B. Stax decks don't care about the damage or life gain because they intend to grind you out in the end.
C. Voltron decks don't care about the damage or life gain because they intend to kill you with 21 commander damage as quickly as possible.
D. Reanimator decks don't care about the ascendant in general because they can grab more powerful creatures very quickly.
E. Even ramp decks are insulated against the full impact of the ascendant as they can likely get out their competitive creatures quickly.
This is also somewhat wrong.
Combo decks absolutely care about something that kills in 7 swings, because it's pressure. If your combo gets disrupted in some way, you don't get a second shot now. You also have less time to assemble your combo pieces.
Stacks decks also care about a 7 turn clock that comes in before lock pieces can hit the board. You need to have the specific anti-creature ones you need.
Voltron decks do care about the damage and the life gain. You don't always get to build a 21 point commander swing. That might be their plan A, but how many decks work exactly as planned every game?
and so on
Serra ascendant is delver of secrets for edh.
Apr 28, 2018Cuts I would make:Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Spine of Ish Sah
I think these cards add little to the gameplan of winning with paradox engine as fast as possible.
Cards I would consider adding:
cavern of souls naming artificer
academy ruins - Gives a bit of resilience by getting back your paradox engine
Krark-Clan Ironworks - Massive mana potential and can sac itself
mishra's bauble - Free draw
walking ballista - Can be cast for 0 for an untap trigger + draw or be an infinite mana sink
isochron scepter + dramatic reversal - Reliable alternate win condition
hurkyl's recall - Add some reliability to the combo
lotus petal - Free spell for untap trigger + draw + acceleration
transmute artifact - One of the strongest artifact tutors
astral cornucopia - Can be cast for 0 or be a mana sink if you need colored mana
spellskite - Protects both your general and paradox engine from targetted removal
frantic search - Filter and "free"
mystical tutor - Searches out your paradox engine tutors or other utility
myr retriever/junk diver - Can make the combo more reliable by just giving you infinite artifacts to cast
metalworker - Big mana dork
You run a lot of basic lands. You can probably steal a fair number of games by adding blood moon and/or back to basics to just lock people out of the game for 3 mana.
There's also almost no interaction in your deck, you are at big risk of just getting locked out of the game through permission and removal, or having people combo off faster than you.
Consider cards like:
force of will
pact of negation
red elemental blast
Apr 26, 2018A work in progress deckPosted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Get altar of the brood or sage's row denizen or genesis chamber or azami, lady of scrolls in play
Cast ghostly flicker or Release to the Wind or Essence Flux
Cast Naru Meha, Master Wizard, copying the flicker spell, targeting Naru
Step 4: Naru gets exiled and comes back, allowing you to target the blink spell again, generating infinite enter the battlefield triggers.
Step 5: You should now have infinite creatures or infinite mill or drawn your entire deck.
Alternative ways to win:
-Rings of brighthearth + Basalt Monolith + Blue Sun's Zenith/Sensei's Divining Top
-isochron scepter + dramatic reversal + Blue Sun's Zenith
-Copy Bribery With Naru and fetching up some winning creatures from the opponents.
-Kicked Rite of replication
This isn't usually the kind of deck I build/play so there's a lot of fine tuning yet to occur.
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