Mystic is used over noble because it can be used for chip damage when its not ramping, and pendlehaven can either make one swing for 2, or save it from, say, a collective brutality. However, if you're not using pendehaven, then an argument could be made for running heirarchs instead. Those exalted triggers really stack up.
Has anyone tested the "Noble Moon" version of this deck to success recently? I'm starting to hit the point where the BBE hits feel bad more times than not...either BBE or the Arbor Elf/Sprawl needs to go. I've also noticed that BBE > Bloodmoon is a bit of a nombo with the fetches/courser/tracker synergy...kinda hard to shuffle those >3 cmc cards back into the pool, or manipulate your topdeck with a moon over your fetches. This also makes your Tracker draws suboptimal as well.
I'm thinking of either a more controlling/grindy/ramp-up version without BBE that has Huntmasters over BBE, Walking Ballistas, Acid-moss over Molten Rain, and Bonfires/Trinispheres maindeck somewhere...Probably with Dragonlord Atarka as a topend.
Or, going the Noble Moon route, with more of a lower curve, notably incorporating two drops like scooze and goyf, as well as hasty 3 drops to optimize BBE hits.
I can actually see Blood sun working out decently for us, in a fetchless list. Blood Sun doesn't allow you to tap for mana the way Blood Moon does, so fetches would be dead in hand.
I think cutting Ewit is a mistake. She is currently the only card advantage we have, and even if you're not going for the Primal Loop, she puts things back in your hand.
Steel Hellkite is something I looked at, but ultimately decided that his boardwipe effect comes out too slowly, he's weak to artifact hate (which is in every sideboard), and competes with Walking Ballista and Hornet Queen, which are both far better at controlling the board in ways that we very much care about.
I still think Cloudthresher was one of the greatest strengths of the original build, and wish I could make room for more in my current build, but again...Queen and Ballistas.
I agree that the bounce creatures feel like something I'd like to cut. I'd like to watch Neilson set up his lock a few times to see if there's just something I'm missing, but I'd rather have more Ballistas or more LD at this point. I feel that the natural casting of a few Primal Commands, even looped with Eternal 2-3 times is plenty of tempo advantage for us, and that we need big things to do with that tempo advantage. Additionally, only in the most optimal of circumstances does a primal command loop actually lock the game in my favor, usually they have creatures out, or spells in hand that they can still play, which forces me to tutor for an answer, rather than another Ewit. The loop just feels too expensive and clunky, and I'd rather have something else to do.
I'm not especially sure how I feel about the idea of cutting Tribe-elders for Mystics. On one hand, Mystics set us up for T2 Trini. On the other, Mystics are easily and usually bolted, and Tribe Elder is guarenteed ramp/blocks for a turn. However, Tribe Elder does not work well with either the T1 Root Maze plan, nor the T2 Trinisphere play, so...
On ramping vs playing lock pieces...that requires some knowledge of your opponents deck and how he plans to disrupt you. But if you can afford to play the lock piece and ramp around it, that is usually the safer play. I've lost more games trying to ramp greedily when I had a Trinisphere in hand that would have saved me the game, than I have taking my time and prioritizing the oppression. However, I would not keep a hand that had Root maze, lands, but no ramp, and Trinisphere isn't much better if its coming out T3.
Brutalizer Exarch is a card that I was actually pretty excited about when I read it, and I want it to work! If only it was a 3/4...But it might just be worth a slot or two for testing. Probably one of the few reasons I'd like to keep the bounce creatures in.
Fetches for thinning - This has been mostly disproven as a myth. However, if you draw a hand with multiple Ewits and fetches, it gives you a way to ramp up, where having only Ewits and Forests is a hand you'd likely ship back.
Overall, I really want to find a way to take the tempo advantage and find a consistent way to run with it. It feel like so many games, I start off with an advantage...and then just slowly lose it once my opponent gets out from under my efforts.
Alright guys, I'm interested. How would you say this deck performs compared to other Prison style decks, specifically Lantern? What are this decks weakest matchups?
It feels like our deck has a tendency to draw the wrong half of the deck as often as we draw into our money spells. This is of course a downside of any ramp deck, but is especially pronounced when our payoff spells are Sorceries that need to be played T2/3, and consecutively in order to give us the momentum we need to win. coming back from behind is incredibly difficult if our opponent gets some creatures out from under our plays, and especially if we can't Primal for Hornet Queen or make a big enough Ballista before we die.
I'm also torn between Root Maze and Trinisphere:
On one hand, if we have ramp, Root Maze is significantly better for us in midgame, as we can keep ramping while playing payoff spells in one turn.
On the other, Trinisphere is an actual lock piece when combined with LD.
The downsides of both are:
Rootmaze still allows the opponent to play their spells in the early game, and handrips/creature removal completely screws us.
Trinisphere keeps us from ramping as soon as it comes down.
I will say that Trinisphere has a more consistent effect on the game, where as rootmaze was only really good for the first few turns if the opponent had mostly fetches/shocks, or if I drew into Plow Under. Root Maze was also not an optimal draw if I had all lands and insufficient ramp for an LD effect.
Overall, when this deck does what its intended to do, the opponent just doesn't get to play Magic. At all. But I find that to be around 20% of games or so. Maybe I'm not mulliganing enough, maybe I'm missing lines of play, maybe my meta is just especially punishing, but I feel like the deck still...needs...something, to give it that little bit of consistency and synergy it needs to truly get there.
Card draw and topdeck filtering are something I especially notice a lack of. Others have used Courser of Kruphix in the past, and while not especially optimal, he certainly is something where we currently have nothing. Tracker can be good, but often we're just not getting enough land drops for him to be relevant, with only 20 lands in the deck. Nissa, Sage Animist would be great but she just comes out too slow, Harmonize is too expensive and may as well just be an LD spell itself, Oath Of Nissa bottoms all the spells we actually want...Lifecrafter's Bestiary is super nice but I'm not sure its worth a slot.
Walking Ballista's on 1 and 2 have been the strongest addition in my experience, sometimes its a bummer to use them so early, but its usually a positive pay off, and a primary target for Ewits. I think making room for 3 is definitely a must.
I tried out Deus of Calamity again tonight. He's fun when he does his job, but often times, I just wish he was a Primeval Titan. Getting to 8 mana is kind of a second sweet spot for us...we can set a Ballista to 4, play two LD effects, play Ewit and Primal, reload a ballista twice...As soon as Primal comes down, we gain a massive boost in inevitability. I just don't think Deus of Calamity does that to near the same effect.
One thing I've noticed is that I just about never go for the Stampeding lock. Can someone help me with some optimal lines to make that effective?
One cool play I got to make tonight was in a grindy matchup against 8rack.
My opponent dropped an ensnaring bridge on my 4/4 ballista, so I shot him 3 times, swung with him as a 1/1, activated pendelhaven before damage, then reloaded it twice and shot my opponent for lethal. Probably the most satisfying win with this deck so far, purely because the match lasted about 20 minutes, and I was dead to Rack next turn.
I didn't mean for the Amulet lands, just the ramp package. I like Gruul's combination of the Scapeshift/Knightfall ramp a lot actually.
I was doing some more thinking after seeing this idea in some other forums, specifically Gruul's build, and I think it could actually be kind of good. Some cards to think about:
Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Nissa, Sage Animist - Probably just a 1-of, similar function to Courser/Oracle but comes with actual card draw, a win condition, and reduces double draws of courser/oracle Nissa, Worldwaker - Can create tramply land creatures every turn if not drawing into Awakening, or if bigger+trample is better than indestructable. Also comes with a tick-up win condition, or can just untap all the land creatures you used to pay for Awakening/Advocate.
I think the best part of this deck is that its win condition is creature-based, but is immune to boardwipes; even (the first) settle the wreckage just sets us up for more fun.
Lots of card advantage and a pseudo combo finish. Tons of fun so far!
I really like this list! The one thing I'd say is that 4x Blood Moon mainboard feels funny with all the non-basics. Maybe its not that big of a deal with all the card advantage you've got, having 2+ Blood Moons that you don't want to play yet might not be a big deal, but those slots could be something like Garruk to untap after Sylvan Awakening/Primeval triggers, or to set up for an overrun with Awakening next turn. I would definitely run at least 3x Blood Moons in the 75 myself though.
edit: 1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer would be sweet in this list as general ramp/support and also as a backup wincon. A few Nissa, Worldwaker would be pretty great with the Sylvan Advocates and the Awakening as well, or just as another backup wincon.
I saw another guy in another forum talking about using Awakening in a Titanshift type deck. I do feel like a modified version of our deck with Nissa, Worldwaker, the scapeshift/amulet titan/Knightfall ramp package, and maybe some sylvan advocates might work out alright. We'd definitely need more lands though.
Seems like a cool idea, but a really fragile one. The opponents would just hold up removal for Advocate G2/3, and without him the Awakening is even more underwhelming than it is with him. The biggest drawback is that the 3 lands you need to tap for the Awakening is 6-12 damage you're missing out on, which means that with Advocate - and this is assuming no blockers - in order for the Awakening to be lethal, you need 8 lands out...
With this in mind, I could (maybe) see Awakening as a sideboard card for decks like Scapeshift/Knightfall/Amulet Titan for when punching through isn't enough and they need to go wide, or to generate early blockers?
Slightly updated build after going 1-4 tonight. Opted to keep Scoozes maindeck after realizing how painful Canopy and fetchlands can be, and how big scoozes can get if I hold onto them for after the opponents removal is used up. Also went up a land to 21, I don't think 20 is a good number, especially with Steel Leaf being such an important card now. I would really like to go to 22 to ensure the Steel Leafs are coming out on time, and that I have mana open for Vines, but I just don't know what I'd remove at this point. I use This article for determining all my land numbers.
Something I have a really hard time with is the Rancor/Aspect/Vines ratio. In my mind, Rancor is the best of the 3, but leaves us open to getting 2-for-1'd if they kill the target before it resolves. Aspect is incredibly powerful, especially in my build, but is mostly a finisher, and leaves us open to getting 2-1'd as well. Vines I'm torn on. I rarely have mana open to kick it, and casting it in response to removal forces them to waste a removal spell, but we're casting 2 cards for their one in that interaction, and still only have a creature.
How do you guys rank these spells? Going down a Rancor was painful, but when I was making the decision to cut, guess I felt like Vines at least ensures I'm not getting 2-1'd, whereas Rancor and Aspect do not.
Ideally, I'd like 4 of Aspect, Rancor, and Vines, but I'm not willing to cut creatures for them, and I need a reliable manabase.
Part of me wants to go all out on the creature base, 3 Scoozes, 2 Rhonas, and another land. Thoughts?
Steel leaf and Rhonas have been absolute all stars for me lately. I didn't do amazing tonight, but all the games I lost were 1-2, even against Jund, Naya Burn, and Humans. The Narnams made E1 and Avatar very noticably better so those and the fetches are for sure staying. Narnam is a great reason for your opponents to think twice about swinging, something Kessig Prowler just does not do. Even if they decide to use their limited removal on the Narnam, I'm happy. Even without fetches, I'd still run Narnam over Kessig for the decisions it can force on my opponent T1/2, something even Dryad doesn't do.
I was actually able to break a board stall with Humans in one of my games, with a Rancor on Rhonas.
What about the other route, eschewing away from BBE entirely in favor of a more robust build?
I'm thinking of either a more controlling/grindy/ramp-up version without BBE that has Huntmasters over BBE, Walking Ballistas, Acid-moss over Molten Rain, and Bonfires/Trinispheres maindeck somewhere...Probably with Dragonlord Atarka as a topend.
Or, going the Noble Moon route, with more of a lower curve, notably incorporating two drops like scooze and goyf, as well as hasty 3 drops to optimize BBE hits.
I think cutting Ewit is a mistake. She is currently the only card advantage we have, and even if you're not going for the Primal Loop, she puts things back in your hand.
Steel Hellkite is something I looked at, but ultimately decided that his boardwipe effect comes out too slowly, he's weak to artifact hate (which is in every sideboard), and competes with Walking Ballista and Hornet Queen, which are both far better at controlling the board in ways that we very much care about.
I still think Cloudthresher was one of the greatest strengths of the original build, and wish I could make room for more in my current build, but again...Queen and Ballistas.
I agree that the bounce creatures feel like something I'd like to cut. I'd like to watch Neilson set up his lock a few times to see if there's just something I'm missing, but I'd rather have more Ballistas or more LD at this point. I feel that the natural casting of a few Primal Commands, even looped with Eternal 2-3 times is plenty of tempo advantage for us, and that we need big things to do with that tempo advantage. Additionally, only in the most optimal of circumstances does a primal command loop actually lock the game in my favor, usually they have creatures out, or spells in hand that they can still play, which forces me to tutor for an answer, rather than another Ewit. The loop just feels too expensive and clunky, and I'd rather have something else to do.
I'm not especially sure how I feel about the idea of cutting Tribe-elders for Mystics. On one hand, Mystics set us up for T2 Trini. On the other, Mystics are easily and usually bolted, and Tribe Elder is guarenteed ramp/blocks for a turn. However, Tribe Elder does not work well with either the T1 Root Maze plan, nor the T2 Trinisphere play, so...
On ramping vs playing lock pieces...that requires some knowledge of your opponents deck and how he plans to disrupt you. But if you can afford to play the lock piece and ramp around it, that is usually the safer play. I've lost more games trying to ramp greedily when I had a Trinisphere in hand that would have saved me the game, than I have taking my time and prioritizing the oppression. However, I would not keep a hand that had Root maze, lands, but no ramp, and Trinisphere isn't much better if its coming out T3.
Brutalizer Exarch is a card that I was actually pretty excited about when I read it, and I want it to work! If only it was a 3/4...But it might just be worth a slot or two for testing. Probably one of the few reasons I'd like to keep the bounce creatures in.
Fetches for thinning - This has been mostly disproven as a myth. However, if you draw a hand with multiple Ewits and fetches, it gives you a way to ramp up, where having only Ewits and Forests is a hand you'd likely ship back.
Overall, I really want to find a way to take the tempo advantage and find a consistent way to run with it. It feel like so many games, I start off with an advantage...and then just slowly lose it once my opponent gets out from under my efforts.
It feels like our deck has a tendency to draw the wrong half of the deck as often as we draw into our money spells. This is of course a downside of any ramp deck, but is especially pronounced when our payoff spells are Sorceries that need to be played T2/3, and consecutively in order to give us the momentum we need to win. coming back from behind is incredibly difficult if our opponent gets some creatures out from under our plays, and especially if we can't Primal for Hornet Queen or make a big enough Ballista before we die.
I'm also torn between Root Maze and Trinisphere:
On one hand, if we have ramp, Root Maze is significantly better for us in midgame, as we can keep ramping while playing payoff spells in one turn.
On the other, Trinisphere is an actual lock piece when combined with LD.
The downsides of both are:
Rootmaze still allows the opponent to play their spells in the early game, and handrips/creature removal completely screws us.
Trinisphere keeps us from ramping as soon as it comes down.
I will say that Trinisphere has a more consistent effect on the game, where as rootmaze was only really good for the first few turns if the opponent had mostly fetches/shocks, or if I drew into Plow Under. Root Maze was also not an optimal draw if I had all lands and insufficient ramp for an LD effect.
Overall, when this deck does what its intended to do, the opponent just doesn't get to play Magic. At all. But I find that to be around 20% of games or so. Maybe I'm not mulliganing enough, maybe I'm missing lines of play, maybe my meta is just especially punishing, but I feel like the deck still...needs...something, to give it that little bit of consistency and synergy it needs to truly get there.
Card draw and topdeck filtering are something I especially notice a lack of. Others have used Courser of Kruphix in the past, and while not especially optimal, he certainly is something where we currently have nothing. Tracker can be good, but often we're just not getting enough land drops for him to be relevant, with only 20 lands in the deck. Nissa, Sage Animist would be great but she just comes out too slow, Harmonize is too expensive and may as well just be an LD spell itself, Oath Of Nissa bottoms all the spells we actually want...Lifecrafter's Bestiary is super nice but I'm not sure its worth a slot.
Walking Ballista's on 1 and 2 have been the strongest addition in my experience, sometimes its a bummer to use them so early, but its usually a positive pay off, and a primary target for Ewits. I think making room for 3 is definitely a must.
I tried out Deus of Calamity again tonight. He's fun when he does his job, but often times, I just wish he was a Primeval Titan. Getting to 8 mana is kind of a second sweet spot for us...we can set a Ballista to 4, play two LD effects, play Ewit and Primal, reload a ballista twice...As soon as Primal comes down, we gain a massive boost in inevitability. I just don't think Deus of Calamity does that to near the same effect.
One thing I've noticed is that I just about never go for the Stampeding lock. Can someone help me with some optimal lines to make that effective?
One cool play I got to make tonight was in a grindy matchup against 8rack.
My opponent dropped an ensnaring bridge on my 4/4 ballista, so I shot him 3 times, swung with him as a 1/1, activated pendelhaven before damage, then reloaded it twice and shot my opponent for lethal. Probably the most satisfying win with this deck so far, purely because the match lasted about 20 minutes, and I was dead to Rack next turn.
https://www.mtgsalvation.com/decks/3387-mono-green-control-update-5-3-2018
I was doing some more thinking after seeing this idea in some other forums, specifically Gruul's build, and I think it could actually be kind of good. Some cards to think about:
Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Nissa, Sage Animist - Probably just a 1-of, similar function to Courser/Oracle but comes with actual card draw, a win condition, and reduces double draws of courser/oracle
Nissa, Worldwaker - Can create tramply land creatures every turn if not drawing into Awakening, or if bigger+trample is better than indestructable. Also comes with a tick-up win condition, or can just untap all the land creatures you used to pay for Awakening/Advocate.
I think the best part of this deck is that its win condition is creature-based, but is immune to boardwipes; even (the first) settle the wreckage just sets us up for more fun.
I really like this list! The one thing I'd say is that 4x Blood Moon mainboard feels funny with all the non-basics. Maybe its not that big of a deal with all the card advantage you've got, having 2+ Blood Moons that you don't want to play yet might not be a big deal, but those slots could be something like Garruk to untap after Sylvan Awakening/Primeval triggers, or to set up for an overrun with Awakening next turn. I would definitely run at least 3x Blood Moons in the 75 myself though.
edit: 1x Nissa, Vastwood Seer would be sweet in this list as general ramp/support and also as a backup wincon. A few Nissa, Worldwaker would be pretty great with the Sylvan Advocates and the Awakening as well, or just as another backup wincon.
With this in mind, I could (maybe) see Awakening as a sideboard card for decks like Scapeshift/Knightfall/Amulet Titan for when punching through isn't enough and they need to go wide, or to generate early blockers?
4 Experiment One
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Dryad Militant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Avatar of the Resolute
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Steel Leaf Champion
3 Rancor
Land
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Treetop Village
10 Forest
Instant
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
2 Dismember
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Pithing Needle
1 Back to Nature
2 Natural State
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Heroic Intervention
1 Creeping Corrosion
Something I have a really hard time with is the Rancor/Aspect/Vines ratio. In my mind, Rancor is the best of the 3, but leaves us open to getting 2-for-1'd if they kill the target before it resolves. Aspect is incredibly powerful, especially in my build, but is mostly a finisher, and leaves us open to getting 2-1'd as well. Vines I'm torn on. I rarely have mana open to kick it, and casting it in response to removal forces them to waste a removal spell, but we're casting 2 cards for their one in that interaction, and still only have a creature.
How do you guys rank these spells? Going down a Rancor was painful, but when I was making the decision to cut, guess I felt like Vines at least ensures I'm not getting 2-1'd, whereas Rancor and Aspect do not.
Ideally, I'd like 4 of Aspect, Rancor, and Vines, but I'm not willing to cut creatures for them, and I need a reliable manabase.
Part of me wants to go all out on the creature base, 3 Scoozes, 2 Rhonas, and another land. Thoughts?
Steel leaf and Rhonas have been absolute all stars for me lately. I didn't do amazing tonight, but all the games I lost were 1-2, even against Jund, Naya Burn, and Humans. The Narnams made E1 and Avatar very noticably better so those and the fetches are for sure staying. Narnam is a great reason for your opponents to think twice about swinging, something Kessig Prowler just does not do. Even if they decide to use their limited removal on the Narnam, I'm happy. Even without fetches, I'd still run Narnam over Kessig for the decisions it can force on my opponent T1/2, something even Dryad doesn't do.
I was actually able to break a board stall with Humans in one of my games, with a Rancor on Rhonas.