1. I go back and forth on this card. As much as it ****s up my ramp sometimes, and shows off our draws, the topdeck filtering and lifegain is pretty great. I can't see myself ever running more than 2 as is.
2. TT is an exceptional card, and I imagine more so with Courser, but where it really shines is with fetchlands. It has always been an under-performer for me in decks that run mono landbases.
3. Thresher is another great card, but at least in my meta, it doesn't deserve a mainboard spot. I never see lingering souls, ever.
4. He really is good...and I never thought about what he does for our mana dorks. I have 3 and I'm trying to get in a couple, as I have noticed I actually get a statistically high number of hands that are all ramp and nothing to do with it, which says I can probably afford to stretch out the ramp curve into Courser and Garruk just slightly.
5. You know, I found I was doing the same thing, but I think its actually due to a mistake in the way I'm playing. Getting that loop set up is our fallback and if at all possible should be done first, before pulling any main threats, unless we're getting beat to ***** by go-wide aggro.
6. I agree, its a great card but not worth the slot. I actually run 8 4drop LD spells right now, and its made a difference. Speaking of card advantage though, I recently found Lifecrafter's Bestiary when looking to optimize my other mono green deck. While it's not quite as amazing in this deck, since we run slightly less creatures, giving us scry+card advantage is certainly worth looking at. Though there are anti-synergies with Courser, so its probably one or the other, but they both have their advantages. edit:Another card I just found that also grants CA, and actually works with courser, seer's sundial
7. He seems cool, but also very easily disruptable, I'm not sure how I feel about him. Also, doesn't him being Legendary mean we can't have both Garruk's in play?
8. Ol' Scoozy deserves a slot in any green deck lol.
I got stomped on last night. My first game was great but I think I let it get to my head and lost every one after that. I need to remember that this isn't stompy, and that my initial focus is on keeping them off their lands, then setting myself up, then pulling creatures...not immediately pulling creatures.
I don't know about you, but over all I'm very satisfied with this archetype in almost every way except for its lack of Trinisphere. The more I play, the more I feel this deck just begs for trinisphere, and we can get it out as early as T2. Nearly every game I lost last night was due to my opponent getting our under me before I could LD, and then not having the turns to both stabilize and respond with my own threat, which would not have been a concern in the least with Trinisphere.
I absolutely cannot find a single non-foil copy anywhere I look though, which is unfortunate. I might just have to run Root Maze for now, but it doesn't quite feel the same.
Just found two cards that I hadn't heard of before, both of which are hardly/not mentioned at all in either thread, and both of which seem to have pretty amazing synergy with our deck as well as with each other. Might be worth running 1x of each in side against grindy control matchups and frankly any other decks that tax us, counter us, remove our creatures, or drag the game out past turn 5.
Our deck could use just a touch of tech I think. For those of you who don't run a tech slot mainboard, I really must insist you try it. When you don't need it, its still a very nice to have, and when you do, you are very, very glad you have it. I can't tell you how many times Bow has helped be stabilize against burn, and these two are the same CMC as bow with equally as powerful effects.
Rhonas's Monument - I currently mainboard a bow of Nylea, and this might be taking the slot. We already run a low curve, but Monument maximizes the benefits of that curve, leaving open mana for pump/hex/Treetop/spell pierce, getting in two creatures where we would have only had enough for one, or even getting in 1 drops for free. Plus, the added pump and trample is just really, really great.
Lifecrafter's Bestiary - This one was actually in one of the pro lists from last year, and the more I look at it, the more I like it. Its a ton of value packed into one card, just like Bow and Monument. The first half of the card gives us the power of selective topdecking, and the second half gives us the ability to draw anytime we play a creature. Considering over a third of our deck is cheap creatures, Bestiary suddenly becomes very, very relevant, and especially for grindy matchups where we tend to lose gas. Seems to be better than Shapers' Sanctuary, and certainly better than Evolutionary Leap: its proactive. Also, it works against removal and counterspells equally, in that we still get the card if the creature is countered.
I know finding room for both of these, and even then, the chances of getting them both out is pretty unlikely, but I'll be testing out these two alongside Bow as a 1x in my 75 for a good while.
I tested Deus of Calamity mainboard today and...it was just absolutely disgusting. With how fast this deck ramps, he's basically an annihilator 1 turn 3-4-5, depending on if you draw the right ramp and if you have to tutor for him. Anything blocked by him that early dies, and if they run out of blockers, their land is wide open for free destruction. It might seem like a win-more card, but remember...this is a prison deck, and our mechanism of action is consistently keeping our opponent off their land. Deus gives us a huge, cheap threat that furthers our cause. I took out Thragtusk for him, because as good as Thraggy is...I mean, its a trade off. We lose the ability to bounce Thrag for life and free 3/3s, but if we land Deus, he ends the game in the time it would take to set up that combo, AND keeps the opponent off their land. And, trample.
I found all I needed was a hand with good ramp, a 4cmc land destruction effect, and either Deus or Primal, and by the time he comes out, the opponent is so far on their back foot he just clears the board in a way no other mainboard threat I've tested has done. I'm leaving in Ballista for now, but frankly I'm tempted to take out Hornet and run 2x Deus. I haven't even tested him with Trinisphere yet, I can't imagine how gross slamming a Trinisphere first would be.
Also, I've found that the deck runs FAR more consistently with the full package of ramp, and after more testing, I'm not really a fan of how Courser gives away our plays. We can ramp fast enough that he's not really necessary, and I got him in place of a ramp card more times than one, where the hand would have otherwise been perfect.
Another testing note, Temur Sabertooth has some serious advantages over Stampeding Serow. 1. We get to choose if/when we bounce. This is huge in itself, as being forced to do anything allows the opponent to play around our board and guess our plays. Also, we can block with Temur+a creature, return creature to hand, and Temur is indestructable. Same with attacking. And we can even trigger temur more than once per turn! And, the biggest one...his ability works the SAME TURN he comes down.
Just a thought...This deck can get to 8 mana pretty easily, what better finisher for us than Ulamog's Crusher? Or even Bane of Bala Ged. I hate to go the cliche Eldrazi-finisher route, but I think they fit quite well with our decks strategy. I had several people tell me that the deck was very good but didn't quite have enough to do with the mana...and if we don't get our combo pieces in the first few turns, they're quite right. It might be worth looking into running a single game-ender to tutor for in case stabilizing isn't an option, or we lose our combo pieces to removal/counters.
I haven't really scoured the numbers for participation/conversion rate or anything, but my gut feeling is that CES is performing really well right now. I think it's made a top 16 appearance or better in nearly every event the last few weeks. Yet it still feels like a dark horse deck. It's kind of strange
Watched Jim Davis' stream the other day when he played CES, he went 5-0 and still said basically that the deck was neat, but it wasn't anything special. Even though he dominated everyone he played.
Edit: Jinxed it! Not in the top 32 of GP Phoenix.
Was it even played at the GP? Looks like the new RG Eldrazi decks were performing really well...I wonder if they're just the better deck.
Played a few games on ol' Untap, and the capabilities of this deck are pretty amazing. Might have to take the plunge...How would you guys compare this to Mono Green Stompy? That's the only other deck I really have experience with.
Same word, different meaning. Mono Green Stompy is an aura stompy deck, which falls under the pure aggro umbrella. Stompy is an aggro-control deck (specifically, midrange) that disrupts opponents with noncreature permanents before following up with heavy hitters to close out the game. As such, the decks are really hard to compare; only thing they have in common is attacking. It's like comparing Ponza to Zoo, or Jund to Infect. Best I can give you is that CES is much more interactive and consistent than MGS, but not as proactive.
More on the distinction between stompy and aura stompy here.
Interesting distinction. I think that site is down, though.
Played a few games on ol' Untap, and the capabilities of this deck are pretty amazing. Might have to take the plunge...How would you guys compare this to Mono Green Stompy? That's the only other deck I really have experience with.
Holy ***** that modern deck. I love it. Makes me want to play modern again (I love prison as an archetype, play bridges and moons in modern right now and play Pox in Legacy). How good would you say it is?
But yeah rogerandover is right, we can't do the LD thing here really. You can try with Plow Under (or Stunted Growth for another similar effect, and also Fallow Earth) and Eternal Witness loops, but you'll draw a lot of hate (LD is probably the most hated thing EDH) and you won't be able actually lock anyone until you get to 1v1, since in multiplayer that thing is much harder to do. We're all about fog-lock, since it is more global
If you like the bouncing-creatures like wildebeast, I think toctheyounger has a thread around here with a more creature-focused list that ran them, though not sure he still runs them now
For the spoilers, Kamahl's Druidic Vow seems great. Big mana for a ton of permanents which is also what we have tons of. Multani, Yavimaya's avatar is kind of cool as a win condition that can recur. I agree on Broken Bond being solid, though I'm a sucker for instants and I think split second is better so I'd rather play Krosan Grip... Sylvan Awakening is great as a fog of sorts than can also make a ton of damage. I'm into it.
Roger, did you switch to our Queen and Savior Nissa? I thought you were still on the Kamahl plan
How good is it...well, it got 3rd at an SCG, but I must admit it is a bit inconsistent at times, as so much of the deck is devoted to the mana ramp package, and it makes for awful topdecks. But if you know what to mull for, you can do some serious work with it, with a bit of topdeck luck. Its gets really good with Trinisphere out, especially if you can keep them under 3 lands.
I'm interested in EDH for sure, just don't really know anyone who plays it around here. I'll have to build something and force some people into it.
I'll just be running Root Maze on paper until I can afford a playset of Trinisphere, but either way, we do run 4x Arbor elf, which is more than enough to untap our land drop for turn, and all the other ways we have to play land come in tapped anyways! So we're largely unaffected by a hand with Arbor Elf/Root maze, except that we can't use elfyboi to power out a T2 Acidmoss via Utopia.
But when we're already slowing our opponent by one turn per land drop for...1 mana...I'm not really complaining. Frankly I've just convinced myself that Root Maze deserves at least 2 slots in the main board and Trini is just a nice to have, because Arbor Elf is already built in.
Furthermore, I might even look at trading out the Mystics for even more early untap power with Voyaging Satyr, which would have the additional bonus of untapping Nykthos for us...I don't think I have to explain how explosive that could be.
Some more food for thought, I've played against Ponza with my stompy deck a few times in the last couple of weeks, and couldn't help but notice the similarities between our deck and theirs...and what Ponza did better. I think we should have a conversation as to what sets us apart from Ponza/Green Devo/Eternal Command, where this deck's identity lies, and how to keep those boundaries in mind as we experiment. We want to maintain a strong, unique core strategy that does its own thing and does that thing better than adjacent decks, rather than becoming a mashup of several decks at once that...kinda does it all.
So I'd start off with:
We're a control deck, specifically a prison deck. Our ideal goal is to ramp into land destruction as a temp play and timewalk our opponent, while we simultaneously increase our resources and land big threats onto an empty board as early as T3-4. Walking Ballista is our main threat filling the slot of Masticore in the original Prison build. Ballista can block and clear the board of cheap creatures against our worst matchup, aggro. We mainboard additional threats as game enders, which we either use alongside Ballista or instead of it, depending on the boardstate.
We're different from Green Devo and Ponza in that we trade some explosiveness for the ability to lock the opponent out of the game while we build up our board state. We ramp into tempo offsets first, then threats. If we start falling behind, we lock the game down and gain health until we stabilize. Our deck doesn't have much in the way of threat density, so we must play the right threat, at the right time, onto the right boardstate. We trade the top end of green devo for midgame stability and to increase inevitability. We trade Ponza's ability to quickly disrupt and go wide/hard for additional tempo advantages, more effective disruption, better threat selection, and more options all around.
The prison element of the deck is not our ideal wincon but it is our fallback, our stabilizer, our way to draw cards while our opponent does not, and our way to select threats. Without the prison element, we are just a slower Ponza, or a weaker Green Devo.
All of this ^. We're eminently customizable based off of our metas and can tailor suite our threat package and control cards to what we're seeing / expect to see. Your prison comment reminded me of some things I'm working through, namely Trinisphere moved from side to main and mainboarded Root Maze. We'd really be a prison deck there, with our "core" package in place, which I believe to be this:
Obviously the ratios can change depending on how deep into LD you want/need to be, but that's been my starting point each time. I have 3 E witnesses as my minimum and usually 2 Slime as a baseline, but as with everything - we can tweak. I think you'd be surprised to find just how many flex spots there are. If we eschew away from Elf/Sprawl, our mana package can change to utility walls, Garruk, etc.
I've been making sure to side in 3x Trini against aggro and it makes a huge difference, I'd say they're normally our worst matchup. Locking all spells at 3 > and keeping their mana at <3 is a truely crippling lockout effect, though it requires a bit of an ideal hand to pull off. I don't really like to drop it immediately against other matchups, as it makes our own ramp quite expensive to play, but once I have 4-5 mana sources Trini is coming down. I've been trying to find space for at least 2 in the main as it shuts down a lot of early strategies.
I saw another build that used Ensnaring Bridge but I'm not sure that really fits our strategy well, unless we stick to the Cloudthresher bounce, which I'd really rather not do.
Some more food for thought, I've played against Ponza with my stompy deck a few times in the last couple of weeks, and couldn't help but notice the similarities between our deck and theirs...and what Ponza did better. I think we should have a conversation as to what sets us apart from Ponza/Green Devo/Eternal Command, where this deck's identity lies, and how to keep those boundaries in mind as we experiment. We want to maintain a strong, unique core strategy that does its own thing and does that thing better than adjacent decks, rather than becoming a mashup of several decks at once that...kinda does it all.
So I'd start off with:
We're a control deck, specifically a prison deck. Our ideal goal is to ramp into land destruction as a temp play and timewalk our opponent, while we simultaneously increase our resources and land big threats onto an empty board as early as T3-4. Walking Ballista is our main threat filling the slot of Masticore in the original Prison build. Ballista can block and clear the board of cheap creatures against our worst matchup, aggro. We mainboard additional threats as game enders, which we either use alongside Ballista or instead of it, depending on the boardstate.
We're different from Green Devo and Ponza in that we trade some explosiveness for the ability to lock the opponent out of the game while we build up our board state. We ramp into tempo offsets first, then threats. If we start falling behind, we lock the game down and gain health until we stabilize. Our deck doesn't have much in the way of threat density, so we must play the right threat, at the right time, onto the right boardstate. We trade the top end of green devo for midgame stability and to increase inevitability. We trade Ponza's ability to quickly disrupt and go wide/hard for additional tempo advantages, more effective disruption, better threat selection, and more options all around.
The prison element of the deck is not our ideal wincon but it is our fallback, our stabilizer, our way to draw cards while our opponent does not, and our way to select threats. And getting there as fast as possible, while preventing our opponent from getting ahead first, is first and foremost. Without the prison element, we are just a slower Ponza, or a weaker Green Devo, so while those two are natural directions to head in when developing, we need to be careful to retain the core elements that make our deck different. To me, that is:
4x Eternal Witness
4x Primal Command
1x Sabertooth (still not 100% sold on this slot as a 1x)
3x Plow Under
4x Acidmoss
1x Walking Ballista
1x Acidic Slime
4x Arbor Elf
4x Utopia Sprawl
6x Additional ramp slots (Mystic, Sakura, Courser, Garruk)
2x Threat slots (Ballista, Thragtusk, Hornets, Titan, Elderscale)
The above feels like the immovable core to me. Even going 1 less on any of them just doesn't feel right. However, the rest of the deck seems totally open to experimentation. The deck can run better with all nonbasics in certain circumstances. Or a Nykthos. Or Treetops. Or more ramp slots, or more slime, or additional threats. Its up to us to find out which list is best, or which ones are competitive enough that saying which is better is a hard call.
2. I'm with you on the terminology, I just meant traditional in the sense that Neilson's list is what I'd consider the baseline to be modified from. Its focused, fast, and simple in what it does. I'm definitely interested in testing out different modifications to it and several of yours are already in my new running build as well, though the changes in my numbers are a bit more conservative to start out.
3. Treetops have definitely made a massive difference for me in my MonoG Stompy deck, so I'm adding in one for now because I do like it a lot. I'm also starting to recognize that the early mana ramping just doesn't seem to be moving towards enough muscle sometimes, and I have to settle for soft locking while I draw into threats longer than I'd like, so Treetop seems a good solution to this. I also didn't notice that Primeval tutors lands when he attacks as well...that really makes the difference. By the way, while we're talking about tutor value...check out the possible synergy with an attacking Primeval and Panglacial Wurm. Titan > Nykthos > attacking Titan > activate Nykthos > Wurm.
4. I would run those two in place of any Treetops and alongside a single Nykthos to minimize the impact as much as possible, but yes, we do lose green sources, though all I'm really worried about is suboptimal hands with Utopia. We can even Utopia the Mountain for green if we really need to.
6. Courser is definitely a great addition, and I'm running 1 right now to test. Like I said, I like to stay conservative in changes and slowly move out. I think as long as we have 4x Eternal Witnesses, dropping down to a 1-of in Slime is a safe bet, though having a few deathtouch blockers out is a really nice thing to have sometimes.
8. This is a good point, and I think I've been prioritizing the setup of the loop too much. Out comes one for me as well.
Good points overall and thanks for your input. Let me know if you'd like to help with the primer, I'd like to narrow down a few different builds for it and I think yours is a good one. Interestingly, I wanted to get into Green Devotion but balked at the price tag, and stumbled across this deck instead...and then your build turns out to be a lighter version of Green Devo with all the fun of the mono green control as well.
2. I see what you mean now. Neilson's list was obviously successful for him, and he's been testing and refining it for much longer than I have. At some point, he chose to drive in a more linear direction with the cheap ramp and LD because he found that to be successful for what he was trying to achieve and it landed him a top 8 at a large tournament. I want to be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with his, while I will admit there may be many things wrong with mine. However, being linear in such a diverse format in Modern has both upsides and downsides. He's more consistent, but he's also weaker to decks can blank his early plays and nail land drops through selection. Any deck packing Lightning Bolt and Mana Leak can be a challenge if the pilot kills your mana dork, blows up a Utopia'd land, and/or counters your business spells. It's not un-winnable by a mile, but the all-in approach can open doors we'd rather like to keep closed. Skred Red would be nightmarish, as their Skreds progressively get better, they run Mind Stone for ramp, can ramp off of Koth of the Hammer, and can drive into much more unanswerable threats than he can.
3. There's something to be said for reliably being able to stick a 4/5-mana LD spell on turns 2 and 3 every game, but it's a more vulnerable strategy. Adding to the nonbasics doesn't make it a whole lot more vulnerable, but it does effect it. I suppose it all came down to a cost/reward ratio, and I looked at what I gained from the nonbasics vs. what it would cost me. Nykthos and Treetop offer unique lines of play, even if I'm grabbing a Titan with a T3 Command, I'm setting up 2 additional 3/3s with trample (12 total damage with Titan), setting (or bluffing) 2 3/3 blockers), or picking up a Nykthos so I can start doing stuff after early acceleration/LD. Panglacial Wurm looks nasty and may be worth attention.
4. Utopia Sprawl won't enchant a Mountain, it has to enchant a forest. I looked at that with KWR, and I looked at splashing some snow actually for Skred, Into the North, and Scrying Sheets, but it really just became a worse version of Ponza.
6. Nothing wrong with being conservative with an established build, but let me give you something to consider. Neilson's list ran 17 dedicated LD spells and 11 1/1 mana dorks, right? I'm running 6 1/1 mana dorks and 14 LD spells. Our ratios are:
28% LD / 18% Mana Dorks for Neilson
23% LD / 10% Mana dorks for me
At the end of the day, I'm still sitting at nearly 1/4 of my deck being dedicated towards LD, with spells that can hit other permanents in the main. I have a tenth of my deck dedicated to helping Utopia Sprawl power out early plays, but I'm also running 3 Garruk and 2 Prime Time, which puts me back at 11 acceleration spells, just at a different CMC, but with significantly more utility than an Elvish Mystic or Sakura-Tribe Elder. This is of course ignoring Acid-Moss' ramp, which only furthers our goals and acts as a 2-for-1 piece of card advantage. Just for the luls, I actually thought of running Troll Ascetic / Courser split. Now that I think of it, it may not be a terrible idea to test..
8. The loop is worth keeping in, believe me, but I'd much rather have a tutorable silver bullet as the 2nd copy. You don't really need the loop itself until you run out of LD spells or Witnesses to grab with Command, which can take a few turns. Most decks cannot survived a few sustained turns of diet plow under/actual plow under/getting their faced caved in by 6/6 bodies with tramble (or a random 64/64 Colossus, which we power with Nykthos).
As far as the other stuff, don't despair on accidentally being a bit of green devotion. My list has Garruk, man lands, toolbox, and Prime Time on purpose. It can certainly get absurd devotion plays off Nykthos, but it's not our focus, just something we can easily set up. I do want to find room for Harmonize and Nissa, Worldwaker to further entrench us as control, as well as more diversification in our bullet list. Don't be afraid to toss conservatism out the window when you're theory crafting, at least to goldfish a few hundred times. I've used Tappedout's "playtest" feature extensively just to see what my board state looks like off random draws more than a hundred times. Sometimes it reveals what's too much of a good thing and sometimes it lets me know I'm on to something.
I think we're on to something.
@Amicdeep: I'm not ignoring you, btw. I love your ideas! What's a border post? (sorry, been away a LONG time). Do you have any other big bombs that are tough to kill?
2. I do think Courser especially gives us a notable advantage T2/3 and entrenches us in a way that the deck was missing, as well as ensuring our draws will less often be wasted on lands. I also like the additional threats you've added, I always felt like 3 wasn't quite enough.
6. I actually really like the Tribe Elders, and they have a hidden card advantage as well: The ability to block before sacrificing for a land pull. Certainly no Garruk, but now that I've taken out Pendelhaven, I might take out the Mystics all together just so I can keep in some Tribe elders and make room for Garruk.
8. I think you're right, and I also think that replacing the Serow with a Temur Sabertooth would give that slot the resiliency it needs as the sole lynchpin of the combo. Sure, it slows it down, but most of the time you're not playing Ewit and Primal on the same turn anyways. Plus, it gives us the option not to bounce if we don't want to, which could be well worth the cost.
While we're at it, we could even partially replace our mana ramp package to include Wall of Roots, Overgrown Battlement, and possibly Wall of Mulch to give Carven Caryatid further use. Maybe a defender build is something to look at.
However, the more i look at her, Nissa, Worldwaker seems like a winmore card to me, and the extra mana cost doesn't really justify the slight advantage she has over Garruk. Her ult also takes longer to set up than Garruk's. If we could find a way to run her as a one of and tutor for her, it might be worth it, as having both her and Garruk out would be brutal.
Hey! Thanks for the shoutout, and I'd love to field a few questions about your build.
1. Which matchups have been the most difficult for you, and do you think the more traditional build would have faired better in those matchups?
2. Which matchups do you think your build faired better than the traditional build would have?
3. Have you considered swapping a treetop with a basic forest for maximum efficiency with Utopia Sprawl? If not, why do you choose to run more nonbasic lands than you can reliably tutor for?
4. If we are going the route of slightly more nonbasic lands, and you already have Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx with two Primeval Titan in the mainboard, what do you think of the following: Dropping a Treetop for a Kessig Wolf Run, and a forest for a single Mountain? We'd be moving more towards a Green Devotion build at that point, but if we're talking Prime Time/Nykthos/Garruk, its worth discussing.
5. What made you want to mainboard a card that seems as narrow as Chameleon Colossus?
7. Have you considered running Reclaiming Vines to give yourself a chance to hit Artifact/Enchantment Creatures as well as the Bramblecrush for Planeswalkers?
8. Do you feel secure in only running 1x Stampeding Wildebeests, as crucial to the combo as that card is? Have you had it removed and lost the game because of it?
9. What sort of hands do you look to keep?
10. Finally, what are the ideal lines of play that you've identified? I'm especially interested in how Garruk works for you.
1. You may laugh, but my most difficult matchups were both against U/B Mill. They have so many ways to dump your GY off one card and run up to 26 land. They only need to stick the 1 drop crab and they'll go from there with fetches. That, and Remand for your Primal Command to prevent you from shuffling your GY back into your library. In the 2 times I've faced it, I was 1 turn away from stabilizing and winning. Outside that, D&T with 8 maindecked LD lands can be backbreaking for us, but not impossible. You need to sequence your spells perfectly and wait to see how they've established themselves. If they are spending turns Quartering your Utopia Sprawl'd lands they aren't playing their dudes and you can start working on their mana base on a fair level (casting 4CMC spells on turn 4, etc).
2. I'm not so sure I'm ready to call anything "traditional." Neilson's certainly the inspiration, and all credit is due to him for this in the form that it's in (as well as the redditors). However, it's a mashup of a few decks as-is, and I wasn't having a ton of fun with the all-in approach of LD. Neilson ran 17 maindecked LD spells and Cloudthresher as the windmill beatdown, I chose to develop a more midrange strategy that was more resilient to a deck that nukes your mana dorks or kills enchanted lands. I'm not saying it's better, but it has different lines of play and likely different strengths and weaknesses. I'd honestly have to play more before I could give a full answer to that, but I will say I loved playing against any type of control. Jeskai, U/W, and Tron variants were actually pretty smooth matchups, along with the nearly auto-win that is burn. We have such a diversified set of threatening spells that need countered and, in the case of a list sporting a singleton Thragtusk alongside 4 Primal Command Burn just gets crushed under inevitability, through Skullcrack because we can keep them off critical burn spells until they run out of stuff to do with Plow Under (as well as the diet Plow Under mode of Command) via recursion.
3. I run the 2 treetops because I like seeing both when games go longer (past turn 7 or 8). Nonbasics make up a small portion of my manabase and can certainly make things tough if they're all I see opening hand, which hasn't yet happened, though I'm sure it can and will.
4. I don't think KWR and a singleton mountain is a bad idea, but that's swapping 2 green-producing sources for a colorless and red-producing source, which will certainly exacerbate the issues you're concerned with.
5. Chameleon Colossus is narrow in its protection, not its utility. Yeah, sometimes the pro-black is irrelevant, but it also survives burn spells by activating its ability, can randomly swing for 64 as your topdeck, and utterly blanks Death's Shadow. It's won me more than a few games outside the matchups its in the main for, so it's earned its spot..for now.
6. Not really? Not yet? Too early to tell? I'm not quite sure on the ratios yet. I have 5 virtual copies of Slime in the main if I count Primal Command, which I do. Again, I've moved away from the 17 dedicated LD spells and I still have 2 Bramblecrushs as a "blow up anything" card, so I don't see it as necessary. There were games where I wished I had another Courser for its toughness instead of the slime sitting in my hand and a 3/3 on the opponents side of the field. Courser, with Mwoncuvuli Acid-Moss, land drops, and Primeval Titan has gained me loads of life, and that's to say nothing of giving us a turn 3 play and topdeck selection. More testing is needed though cause I'm never satisfied with the ratios between those two cards.
7. I haven't, but I'm not opposed to it. I ran Neilson's 2nd list, card-for-card at my first magic tournament in 7 years (first ever modern tournament). The current iteration is based off my experience and what type of deck I wanted to pilot.
8. Yes. On its own, it's mostly a junk creature that doesn't interact well with a lot of the creatures in my toolbox build (or Neilson's stock list). It's counter-tempo in a lot of circumstances to bounce a dude next turn and a terrible topdeck. The combo you're referring to isn't what I'd call a win-more, but once you set it up - it's unlikely you can lose. The combo isn't the point of the deck, but adds to its inevitability.
9. Anything with a turn 3 play, even if it's just Courser. But ideally 2 Forest, 1 Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Garruk, Acid-Moss/Bramblecrush/Plow Under/Primal Command are pretty nuts.
10. Garruk has been an all star. He makes Utopia Sprawl'd Forests amazing. His ultimate has won me a ton of games. His Beats stave off aggressive decks. He's proven himself time and time again generally, like in MTG, and he fits in nicely with this deck. I'll post more when I can sit down and think of it a bit more clearly.
Hope that helps!
2. I'm with you on the terminology, I just meant traditional in the sense that Neilson's list is what I'd consider the baseline to be modified from. Its focused, fast, and simple in what it does. I'm definitely interested in testing out different modifications to it and several of yours are already in my new running build as well, though the changes in my numbers are a bit more conservative to start out.
3. Treetops have definitely made a massive difference for me in my MonoG Stompy deck, so I'm adding in one for now because I do like it a lot. I'm also starting to recognize that the early mana ramping just doesn't seem to be moving towards enough muscle sometimes, and I have to settle for soft locking while I draw into threats longer than I'd like, so Treetop seems a good solution to this. I also didn't notice that Primeval tutors lands when he attacks as well...that really makes the difference. By the way, while we're talking about tutor value...check out the possible synergy with an attacking Primeval and Panglacial Wurm. Titan > Nykthos > attacking Titan > activate Nykthos > Wurm.
4. I would run those two in place of any Treetops and alongside a single Nykthos to minimize the impact as much as possible, but yes, we do lose green sources, though all I'm really worried about is suboptimal hands with Utopia. We can even Utopia the Mountain for green if we really need to.
6. Courser is definitely a great addition, and I'm running 1 right now to test. Like I said, I like to stay conservative in changes and slowly move out. I think as long as we have 4x Eternal Witnesses, dropping down to a 1-of in Slime is a safe bet, though having a few deathtouch blockers out is a really nice thing to have sometimes.
8. This is a good point, and I think I've been prioritizing the setup of the loop too much. Out comes one for me as well.
Good points overall and thanks for your input. Let me know if you'd like to help with the primer, I'd like to narrow down a few different builds for it and I think yours is a good one. Interestingly, I wanted to get into Green Devotion but balked at the price tag, and stumbled across this deck instead...and then your build turns out to be a lighter version of Green Devo with all the fun of the mono green control as well.
2. TT is an exceptional card, and I imagine more so with Courser, but where it really shines is with fetchlands. It has always been an under-performer for me in decks that run mono landbases.
3. Thresher is another great card, but at least in my meta, it doesn't deserve a mainboard spot. I never see lingering souls, ever.
4. He really is good...and I never thought about what he does for our mana dorks. I have 3 and I'm trying to get in a couple, as I have noticed I actually get a statistically high number of hands that are all ramp and nothing to do with it, which says I can probably afford to stretch out the ramp curve into Courser and Garruk just slightly.
5. You know, I found I was doing the same thing, but I think its actually due to a mistake in the way I'm playing. Getting that loop set up is our fallback and if at all possible should be done first, before pulling any main threats, unless we're getting beat to ***** by go-wide aggro.
6. I agree, its a great card but not worth the slot. I actually run 8 4drop LD spells right now, and its made a difference. Speaking of card advantage though, I recently found Lifecrafter's Bestiary when looking to optimize my other mono green deck. While it's not quite as amazing in this deck, since we run slightly less creatures, giving us scry+card advantage is certainly worth looking at. Though there are anti-synergies with Courser, so its probably one or the other, but they both have their advantages. edit:Another card I just found that also grants CA, and actually works with courser, seer's sundial
7. He seems cool, but also very easily disruptable, I'm not sure how I feel about him. Also, doesn't him being Legendary mean we can't have both Garruk's in play?
8. Ol' Scoozy deserves a slot in any green deck lol.
I got stomped on last night. My first game was great but I think I let it get to my head and lost every one after that. I need to remember that this isn't stompy, and that my initial focus is on keeping them off their lands, then setting myself up, then pulling creatures...not immediately pulling creatures.
I don't know about you, but over all I'm very satisfied with this archetype in almost every way except for its lack of Trinisphere. The more I play, the more I feel this deck just begs for trinisphere, and we can get it out as early as T2. Nearly every game I lost last night was due to my opponent getting our under me before I could LD, and then not having the turns to both stabilize and respond with my own threat, which would not have been a concern in the least with Trinisphere.
I absolutely cannot find a single non-foil copy anywhere I look though, which is unfortunate. I might just have to run Root Maze for now, but it doesn't quite feel the same.
I blame the time of night it was.
However I stand by Bestiary, and agree that Greenbelt does work quite well with that.
Our deck could use just a touch of tech I think. For those of you who don't run a tech slot mainboard, I really must insist you try it. When you don't need it, its still a very nice to have, and when you do, you are very, very glad you have it. I can't tell you how many times Bow has helped be stabilize against burn, and these two are the same CMC as bow with equally as powerful effects.
Rhonas's Monument - I currently mainboard a bow of Nylea, and this might be taking the slot. We already run a low curve, but Monument maximizes the benefits of that curve, leaving open mana for pump/hex/Treetop/spell pierce, getting in two creatures where we would have only had enough for one, or even getting in 1 drops for free. Plus, the added pump and trample is just really, really great.
Lifecrafter's Bestiary - This one was actually in one of the pro lists from last year, and the more I look at it, the more I like it. Its a ton of value packed into one card, just like Bow and Monument. The first half of the card gives us the power of selective topdecking, and the second half gives us the ability to draw anytime we play a creature. Considering over a third of our deck is cheap creatures, Bestiary suddenly becomes very, very relevant, and especially for grindy matchups where we tend to lose gas. Seems to be better than Shapers' Sanctuary, and certainly better than Evolutionary Leap: its proactive. Also, it works against removal and counterspells equally, in that we still get the card if the creature is countered.
I know finding room for both of these, and even then, the chances of getting them both out is pretty unlikely, but I'll be testing out these two alongside Bow as a 1x in my 75 for a good while.
I found all I needed was a hand with good ramp, a 4cmc land destruction effect, and either Deus or Primal, and by the time he comes out, the opponent is so far on their back foot he just clears the board in a way no other mainboard threat I've tested has done. I'm leaving in Ballista for now, but frankly I'm tempted to take out Hornet and run 2x Deus. I haven't even tested him with Trinisphere yet, I can't imagine how gross slamming a Trinisphere first would be.
Also, I've found that the deck runs FAR more consistently with the full package of ramp, and after more testing, I'm not really a fan of how Courser gives away our plays. We can ramp fast enough that he's not really necessary, and I got him in place of a ramp card more times than one, where the hand would have otherwise been perfect.
Another testing note, Temur Sabertooth has some serious advantages over Stampeding Serow. 1. We get to choose if/when we bounce. This is huge in itself, as being forced to do anything allows the opponent to play around our board and guess our plays. Also, we can block with Temur+a creature, return creature to hand, and Temur is indestructable. Same with attacking. And we can even trigger temur more than once per turn! And, the biggest one...his ability works the SAME TURN he comes down.
Just a thought...This deck can get to 8 mana pretty easily, what better finisher for us than Ulamog's Crusher? Or even Bane of Bala Ged. I hate to go the cliche Eldrazi-finisher route, but I think they fit quite well with our decks strategy. I had several people tell me that the deck was very good but didn't quite have enough to do with the mana...and if we don't get our combo pieces in the first few turns, they're quite right. It might be worth looking into running a single game-ender to tutor for in case stabilizing isn't an option, or we lose our combo pieces to removal/counters.
Was it even played at the GP? Looks like the new RG Eldrazi decks were performing really well...I wonder if they're just the better deck.
Interesting distinction. I think that site is down, though.
How good is it...well, it got 3rd at an SCG, but I must admit it is a bit inconsistent at times, as so much of the deck is devoted to the mana ramp package, and it makes for awful topdecks. But if you know what to mull for, you can do some serious work with it, with a bit of topdeck luck. Its gets really good with Trinisphere out, especially if you can keep them under 3 lands.
I'm interested in EDH for sure, just don't really know anyone who plays it around here. I'll have to build something and force some people into it.
But when we're already slowing our opponent by one turn per land drop for...1 mana...I'm not really complaining. Frankly I've just convinced myself that Root Maze deserves at least 2 slots in the main board and Trini is just a nice to have, because Arbor Elf is already built in.
Furthermore, I might even look at trading out the Mystics for even more early untap power with Voyaging Satyr, which would have the additional bonus of untapping Nykthos for us...I don't think I have to explain how explosive that could be.
I've been making sure to side in 3x Trini against aggro and it makes a huge difference, I'd say they're normally our worst matchup. Locking all spells at 3 > and keeping their mana at <3 is a truely crippling lockout effect, though it requires a bit of an ideal hand to pull off. I don't really like to drop it immediately against other matchups, as it makes our own ramp quite expensive to play, but once I have 4-5 mana sources Trini is coming down. I've been trying to find space for at least 2 in the main as it shuts down a lot of early strategies.
I saw another build that used Ensnaring Bridge but I'm not sure that really fits our strategy well, unless we stick to the Cloudthresher bounce, which I'd really rather not do.
So I'd start off with:
We're a control deck, specifically a prison deck. Our ideal goal is to ramp into land destruction as a temp play and timewalk our opponent, while we simultaneously increase our resources and land big threats onto an empty board as early as T3-4. Walking Ballista is our main threat filling the slot of Masticore in the original Prison build. Ballista can block and clear the board of cheap creatures against our worst matchup, aggro. We mainboard additional threats as game enders, which we either use alongside Ballista or instead of it, depending on the boardstate.
We're different from Green Devo and Ponza in that we trade some explosiveness for the ability to lock the opponent out of the game while we build up our board state. We ramp into tempo offsets first, then threats. If we start falling behind, we lock the game down and gain health until we stabilize. Our deck doesn't have much in the way of threat density, so we must play the right threat, at the right time, onto the right boardstate. We trade the top end of green devo for midgame stability and to increase inevitability. We trade Ponza's ability to quickly disrupt and go wide/hard for additional tempo advantages, more effective disruption, better threat selection, and more options all around.
The prison element of the deck is not our ideal wincon but it is our fallback, our stabilizer, our way to draw cards while our opponent does not, and our way to select threats. And getting there as fast as possible, while preventing our opponent from getting ahead first, is first and foremost. Without the prison element, we are just a slower Ponza, or a weaker Green Devo, so while those two are natural directions to head in when developing, we need to be careful to retain the core elements that make our deck different. To me, that is:
4x Eternal Witness
4x Primal Command
1x Sabertooth (still not 100% sold on this slot as a 1x)
3x Plow Under
4x Acidmoss
1x Walking Ballista
1x Acidic Slime
4x Arbor Elf
4x Utopia Sprawl
6x Additional ramp slots (Mystic, Sakura, Courser, Garruk)
2x Threat slots (Ballista, Thragtusk, Hornets, Titan, Elderscale)
The above feels like the immovable core to me. Even going 1 less on any of them just doesn't feel right. However, the rest of the deck seems totally open to experimentation. The deck can run better with all nonbasics in certain circumstances. Or a Nykthos. Or Treetops. Or more ramp slots, or more slime, or additional threats. Its up to us to find out which list is best, or which ones are competitive enough that saying which is better is a hard call.
2. I do think Courser especially gives us a notable advantage T2/3 and entrenches us in a way that the deck was missing, as well as ensuring our draws will less often be wasted on lands. I also like the additional threats you've added, I always felt like 3 wasn't quite enough.
6. I actually really like the Tribe Elders, and they have a hidden card advantage as well: The ability to block before sacrificing for a land pull. Certainly no Garruk, but now that I've taken out Pendelhaven, I might take out the Mystics all together just so I can keep in some Tribe elders and make room for Garruk.
8. I think you're right, and I also think that replacing the Serow with a Temur Sabertooth would give that slot the resiliency it needs as the sole lynchpin of the combo. Sure, it slows it down, but most of the time you're not playing Ewit and Primal on the same turn anyways. Plus, it gives us the option not to bounce if we don't want to, which could be well worth the cost.
As far as Harmonize, something to think about is that we already have an engine for abusing ETB triggers...so why not Carven Caryatid,
Elvish Visionary, or even Sage of Ancient Lore/Soul of the Harvest.
While we're at it, we could even partially replace our mana ramp package to include Wall of Roots, Overgrown Battlement, and possibly Wall of Mulch to give Carven Caryatid further use. Maybe a defender build is something to look at.
However, the more i look at her, Nissa, Worldwaker seems like a winmore card to me, and the extra mana cost doesn't really justify the slight advantage she has over Garruk. Her ult also takes longer to set up than Garruk's. If we could find a way to run her as a one of and tutor for her, it might be worth it, as having both her and Garruk out would be brutal.
2. I'm with you on the terminology, I just meant traditional in the sense that Neilson's list is what I'd consider the baseline to be modified from. Its focused, fast, and simple in what it does. I'm definitely interested in testing out different modifications to it and several of yours are already in my new running build as well, though the changes in my numbers are a bit more conservative to start out.
3. Treetops have definitely made a massive difference for me in my MonoG Stompy deck, so I'm adding in one for now because I do like it a lot. I'm also starting to recognize that the early mana ramping just doesn't seem to be moving towards enough muscle sometimes, and I have to settle for soft locking while I draw into threats longer than I'd like, so Treetop seems a good solution to this. I also didn't notice that Primeval tutors lands when he attacks as well...that really makes the difference. By the way, while we're talking about tutor value...check out the possible synergy with an attacking Primeval and Panglacial Wurm. Titan > Nykthos > attacking Titan > activate Nykthos > Wurm.
4. I would run those two in place of any Treetops and alongside a single Nykthos to minimize the impact as much as possible, but yes, we do lose green sources, though all I'm really worried about is suboptimal hands with Utopia. We can even Utopia the Mountain for green if we really need to.
6. Courser is definitely a great addition, and I'm running 1 right now to test. Like I said, I like to stay conservative in changes and slowly move out. I think as long as we have 4x Eternal Witnesses, dropping down to a 1-of in Slime is a safe bet, though having a few deathtouch blockers out is a really nice thing to have sometimes.
8. This is a good point, and I think I've been prioritizing the setup of the loop too much. Out comes one for me as well.
Good points overall and thanks for your input. Let me know if you'd like to help with the primer, I'd like to narrow down a few different builds for it and I think yours is a good one. Interestingly, I wanted to get into Green Devotion but balked at the price tag, and stumbled across this deck instead...and then your build turns out to be a lighter version of Green Devo with all the fun of the mono green control as well.