And yeah, that's something I also wanted to ask in the original post: did any of these decks ever inspire you to build your own version of it, or incoporate parts of it into one of your own decks?
My cousin has an amazing Gisela, Blade of Goldnight deck that assembles great boardstates with Pariah, Boros Reckoner and Darksteel Plate. I always loved that synergy and included it as soon as I had a deck where it fit.
What are some of the most original, memorable, and plain cool decks you ever played against? You know, the kind of decks where you wish you would have thought of them yourself?
[...]While you're painting a picture, i'm usually sketching a blueprint. The gears and joints assemble themselves over time to form the final Rube Goldberg machine.
4. When starting out with a blueprint i try to get a grasp of what part of my commanders' tech i'd want to maximize on. E.g. with Brago, King Eternal i didn't want to go Stax or infinites, but decided i wanted to double up on the etb thing through token generators, Cathars' Crusade and cards that reward me going wide like Coastal Piracy and Bident of Thassa. Same goes for my Mirri, Weatherlight Duelist deck, where i wanted to maximize her influence on combat behavior. Lots of Stompies with different concequences (see Giant Adephage) to make the decision harder on what to block and therefor take combat advantage out the defending players' hand. So with no apparent flavor theme, there's a technical theme.
I like the blueprint metaphor. I think this is very close to how I usually build my decks. I rarely start with a perfectly finished idea of what the final deck will look like, but instead tweak it and let it evolve over time (which is probably not an uncommon approach).
[...] As long as you'll get something out of it, do your thing! If some- or everyone else does too, even better. Just try not rely on their feedback and enthusiasm to be content with what you created.
These points (and the similar ones made by others in the thread) are well taken. Of course it would be a bit much to expect people to instantly get a theme that is not readily apparent and I think it is in the nature of EDH that there is lots of room to express yourself and build decks as creative projects that go beyond the pure gameplay. Of course, the feedback and enthusiasm of others is still very important when it comes to whether I like the deck, because I want my opponents to have fun while playing against it. But that goes without saying.
In my mind what you have built done is taken a themed based deck to the next level. Cudios if you can make it work as I imagine the card selection does get even smaller. Still I love the idea of building a themed deck like this, and would probably go as far to say as my idea for Gwafa Hazid, Profiteer deck will be following this route.
Only thing as others have mentioned is that most likely only you will truly get what you are trying to achieve with the deck, but hey if you had fun building it and playing it then that's what really matters.
Side note, if you give your decks names which match the theme, then that will help with the opponents understanding of the atmosphere behind it. I recommend your jungle style deck be called 'Welcome to the Jungle' which plays Guns N Roses as you start to shuffle up
Glad you like the concept. And yes, that is exactly the title that I gave to the deck haha (see my sig)
Personally I see decks falling into these general categories:
-decks built around synergy with a certain mechanic. i.e. a tribal deck, a +1/+1 counter deck, some combo, etc. The most common kind of deck.
-decks built around a certain mechanic (without synergy). i.e. theft. Theft doesn't really synergize with itself.
-decks built around strong cards with no mechanical or synergistic considerations. aka goodstuff.
-decks built around neither synergistic, mechanical, or power considerations. I group any kind of theme deck here - game of thrones flavor, artist decks, left handed decks, etc.
-decks built around creating a certain experience. This is a category I'm interested in exploring although idk if it's its own category or just a subcategory of #4. My best example is my tymna/kraum deck, which is full of cards I think make for exciting unexpected finishes. The goal is to win in a way that's satisfying, regardless of synergy, mechanics, or power, though of course there are some synergies and mechanical links. My Phelddagrif deck could also be considered in this way, as a deck built to try to make games as fair as possible no matter the power levels. Phelddagrif might also just be synergistic (category #1), but it's a weird sort of synergy that has nothing to do with how the cards interact with each other and more how the deck as a whole interacts with your opponents.
Personally I would consider what you're doing to be more #4 than #5. I think of #5 as having nothing to do with the art or flavor of the cards, and purely to do with the mechanics and the kinds of games they create.
Your distinction between different kinds of mechanical themes makes a lot of sense. I do think the atmospheric decks fall into the "experience" category, though - or at least that is my goal with them. They are decidedly not designed from a pure flavor perspective, but with a strong focus on the play experience and the underlying mechanics and strategy. Of course they want to win, but they also want to bring about specific game states that set up certain choices my opponents would not face against some of my other decks (e.g. "should I attack the Jungle deck even though he will profit from blocking with his enrage dinos?" - this question would never pop up when facing off against my Gahiji aggro deck).
With atmospheric decks, the flavor and the gameplay cannot be separated, even though the gameplay is primary. If other players will not get the atmospheric theme during our games, that's actually quite ok. It may just be that its main function is to inspire the deckbuilding process.
Played another game today, and managed to reduce everyones life totals close to single digits via Vial Smasher and an assortment of pain cards...and then died. To my own Manabarbs.
So! The deck needs a few more ways of closing out the game before people's attention turns to me. To this end:
I might put Torment back in at some point, but for now I want a little more Oomph. Exsanguinate provides that. Gaining life is also useful in order to not die to Manabarbs.
The fight cards just don't do enough here. While the deck runs some large creatures, they are neither super large nor show up reliably enough for the fight cards to pull their weight as consistent removal. A friend of mine had Primal Order in his pile of junk rares that he brought with him tonight, so this was an easy decision. Looking forward to some very nice, very lethal Primal Order and Tamanoa duets. The Gruul Ragebeast can stay for now, as it brings its own big body with it.
Interestingly, the Chinese planeswalker decks are called "Global Series: Jiang Yanggu and Mu Yanling". I'm assuming based on the name "Global Series" if this sells well we'll later see this for other countries or regions?
This product might be a test product to see if it sells better in China. If so, Wizards will likely design a Chinese-themed expansion in the future.
I am sure a Chinese setting has been on the short list for years.
I don't think Wizards will release an entire Chinese themed set globally. The low sales numbers of the Kamigawa block are too deep of a wound for this to happen. But of course they want a piece of the huge potential Chinese market and apparently have decided they need products that are more accesible to chinese customers. I think this deck is an attempt to create a gateway drug to Magic for Chinese players that might not have the same evocative connection to Magic's fantasy themes as an average Western customer.
The success of Khans and Amonkhet counters your point completely. Kamigawa did not sell well because it was poorly designed (mechanically) and was sandwiched between two incredibly popular blocks (Mirrodin and Ravnica). The failures of Kamigawa taught WotC a lot of hard lessons, which they have taken to heart, for the most part.
Fair enough, I withdraw that point. I still think the Chinese planeswalker deck is primarily an attempt to expand their market in China, and only secondarily aimed towards customers in other countries.
I'm not sure what you mean by this question. If you mean, "do I think players should build decks from an atmospheric perspective?" like, that's up them. People will build decks for whatever reasons they want. It isn't up to me to decide how someone should build a deck or not. Granted, there are plenty of deck premises that I think are absolute poppycock, but to each their own.
Alternatively, if you meant "do I think decks built from an atmospheric perspective will reliably convey the atmospheres they were built in mind with?" then no. I don't think atmospheric decks can reliably convey the atmospheres they were built with in mind. Barring only the most exquisitely built decks, I think the atmospheres those decks are trying to convey will largely only exist inside the heads of their creators.
I did indeed mean the question in the second sense. Again, you make some fair points. I think it is not a failure if I have to tell people about my intention with the deck. And naturally, not everybody is receptive for these kinds of considerations. If the game goes well, it will still be fun for everybody regardless of any flavor or thematic considerations. If some people tell me they can see what I was trying to do with the deck, all the better. Until then, I am happy with having fun during deck construction and gameplay on more levels than just enjoying a mechanically creative deck. I think a big reason why I enjoy this approach is that, while I have refrained from strongly focusing on flavor in the past because it felt too restrictive in my card choices, with this approach I do feel like I am building a strong deck that is focused on gameplay and wanting to win, while at the same time creating something unique that goes beyond the "hard" play mechanics and incorporates "soft" storytelling elements. So yeah, maybe you are right and the atmosphere really only exists in my head.
Interestingly, the Chinese planeswalker decks are called "Global Series: Jiang Yanggu and Mu Yanling". I'm assuming based on the name "Global Series" if this sells well we'll later see this for other countries or regions?
This product might be a test product to see if it sells better in China. If so, Wizards will likely design a Chinese-themed expansion in the future.
I am sure a Chinese setting has been on the short list for years.
I don't think Wizards will release an entire Chinese themed set globally. The low sales numbers of the Kamigawa block are too deep of a wound for this to happen. But of course they want a piece of the huge potential Chinese market and apparently have decided they need products that are more accesible to chinese customers. I think this deck is an attempt to create a gateway drug to Magic for Chinese players that might not have the same evocative connection to Magic's fantasy themes as an average Western customer.
one of the widely held tenets of commander deckbuilding is that the deck should adhere to some sort of overarching theme. For instance, see Blackjack86's philosophy of deckbuilding:
All my decks try to adhere to these guidelines:
1) Be able to win.
2) Be mostly true to a flavor and a theme.
3) Be fun to pilot or to play against and interactive.
4) Have multiple paths to victory.
5) Have lots of cool interactions and synergy.
6) Play out differently every game to keep it fun over a long time.
7) Be streamlined and fast to play without excessive upkeep, time-consuming play or overcomplicated boardstates.
8) Integrate the Commanders abilities into the strategy at least a little, but be able to win without ever playing the commander.
In my experience, the most popular way to go about choosing a theme is to focus on some game mechanic or strategy (e.g. stealing/copying, cheating out fatties, reanimator etc) that may or may not synergize well with your commander. Another somewhat similar approach is to pick a legendary creature and build a deck around their abilities. A second popular method is to build the deck in a way that exemplifies a certain flavor. In this case, the theme of the deck can be inspired by a specific element of an official set storyline, e.g. an Orzhov deck (one can choose to be very strict and exclude cards which do not feel like they belong to Orzhov, such as Tocatli Honor Guard). It can also be a more general fantasy theme, like necromancy. The second kind of flavor themes lend often go very well with mechanical themes. A third kind of deck theme that is sometimes seen is more extravagant, such as a Foglio artwork tribal deck, or a deck that aims to symbolize a certain album by a favorite band, or a deck which consists only of cards with the word "salt" in their name. The possibilities here are endless.
Recently, I tried a new method of finding and implementing a theme during deckbuilding. I began with thinking about a certain feeling or atmosphere that I want the pilot and their opponents to experience during a game, and then thought about cards and strategies that would be conducive to that feeling. For instance, my Vial Smasher the Fierce/Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker deck wants to recreate the classic Evil Mastermind trope. Specifically, I was inspired by the countless sadistic choice dilemmas that supervillains from Lex Luthor to the Green Goblin have gleefully presented to their heroic adversaries, and hence included plenty of cards like Torment of Hailfire or Prince of Thralls. Another example is my (house-ruled as legendary) Tamanoa deck, where I wanted to create games that feel like my opponents are venturing into a hostile, verdant Jungle. I included plenty of global damage effects a la Pyrohemia, enrage dinos and Rite of Passage type cards. The idea is that the very same elements which make the jungle hostile and dangerous to outsiders (poisonous vines, wild animals, heat, humidity, quicksands etc) are the very fabric of life that make everything that belongs to the jungle grow and flourish. Both decks aim to evoke these feelings or atmospheres not just through their individual card artworks or mechanics, but through the very way they play out during a commander game by presenting my opponents with very specific choice situations that are meant to recreate the atmospheric clouds that inspired these decks.
I found this way of deck construction to be very rewarding and fun. It is neither looking for a pure flavor theme, nor starting out with abstract thinking about game mechanics, but sort of a synthesis of the first two ways of thematically guiding deck construction and play style I outlined above. It feels very much like painting a picture with your deck. In the ideal case, everything comes together in the end and results in a well-rounded deck that is more than the sum of its parts. While flavorful themes are often transmitted primarily via the artwork / flavor texts of the cards and not necessarily in terms of how the deck behaves during gameplay, and mechanical themes are expressed less via the flavor of the cards and more through what the cards actually do on the battlefield, this approach wants to combine both. The deck theme is not expressed only through artworks or the card mechanics alone, but rather through a certain kind of overall atmosphere that comes about during the act of playing a commander game with it. I have come to refer to these decks as "atmospheric decks".
Of course I do not claim to be the first one to build decks that work like that. On the contrary, I think the large majority of EDH decks are atmospheric decks to some degree. Nonetheless, formulating this concept and actively trying to implement it during deckbuilding changed the way I approached EDH deck construction. Instead of starting out with thinking about what I want the deck to do, I start with thinking about what I want playing (and playing against) the deck to feel like.
So, I am curious: How do you go about incorporating themes during deck construction and gameplay? Do you agree with my broad categorization of different kinds of themes? Do you think the concept of the atmospheric deck is convincing?
It's very narrow and high-risk, but Form of the Dinosaur is hilarious in my Tamanoaenrage deck. While it is pretty bad under normal circumstances, with Tamanoa out it (and possibly some other way to deal damage after casting it so you don't have to sit around on 15 life until your next upkeep), it is wonderful. You get to kill one thing each turn, and you get the life before the creature deals damage to you.
One of the cards I acquired at some point because I wanted to play him/her somewhere, and now it just sits in my binder because I still haven't ound a deck for it yet.
And yeah, that's something I also wanted to ask in the original post: did any of these decks ever inspire you to build your own version of it, or incoporate parts of it into one of your own decks?
My cousin has an amazing Gisela, Blade of Goldnight deck that assembles great boardstates with Pariah, Boros Reckoner and Darksteel Plate. I always loved that synergy and included it as soon as I had a deck where it fit.
I like the blueprint metaphor. I think this is very close to how I usually build my decks. I rarely start with a perfectly finished idea of what the final deck will look like, but instead tweak it and let it evolve over time (which is probably not an uncommon approach).
These points (and the similar ones made by others in the thread) are well taken. Of course it would be a bit much to expect people to instantly get a theme that is not readily apparent and I think it is in the nature of EDH that there is lots of room to express yourself and build decks as creative projects that go beyond the pure gameplay. Of course, the feedback and enthusiasm of others is still very important when it comes to whether I like the deck, because I want my opponents to have fun while playing against it. But that goes without saying.
Glad you like the concept. And yes, that is exactly the title that I gave to the deck haha
Your distinction between different kinds of mechanical themes makes a lot of sense. I do think the atmospheric decks fall into the "experience" category, though - or at least that is my goal with them. They are decidedly not designed from a pure flavor perspective, but with a strong focus on the play experience and the underlying mechanics and strategy. Of course they want to win, but they also want to bring about specific game states that set up certain choices my opponents would not face against some of my other decks (e.g. "should I attack the Jungle deck even though he will profit from blocking with his enrage dinos?" - this question would never pop up when facing off against my Gahiji aggro deck).
With atmospheric decks, the flavor and the gameplay cannot be separated, even though the gameplay is primary. If other players will not get the atmospheric theme during our games, that's actually quite ok. It may just be that its main function is to inspire the deckbuilding process.
So! The deck needs a few more ways of closing out the game before people's attention turns to me. To this end:
- Everlasting Torment out
- Exsanguinate in
I might put Torment back in at some point, but for now I want a little more Oomph. Exsanguinate provides that. Gaining life is also useful in order to not die to Manabarbs.
- Setessan Tactics
In:
- Primal Order
The fight cards just don't do enough here. While the deck runs some large creatures, they are neither super large nor show up reliably enough for the fight cards to pull their weight as consistent removal. A friend of mine had Primal Order in his pile of junk rares that he brought with him tonight, so this was an easy decision. Looking forward to some very nice, very lethal Primal Order and Tamanoa duets. The Gruul Ragebeast can stay for now, as it brings its own big body with it.
Fair enough, I withdraw that point. I still think the Chinese planeswalker deck is primarily an attempt to expand their market in China, and only secondarily aimed towards customers in other countries.
I did indeed mean the question in the second sense. Again, you make some fair points. I think it is not a failure if I have to tell people about my intention with the deck. And naturally, not everybody is receptive for these kinds of considerations. If the game goes well, it will still be fun for everybody regardless of any flavor or thematic considerations. If some people tell me they can see what I was trying to do with the deck, all the better. Until then, I am happy with having fun during deck construction and gameplay on more levels than just enjoying a mechanically creative deck. I think a big reason why I enjoy this approach is that, while I have refrained from strongly focusing on flavor in the past because it felt too restrictive in my card choices, with this approach I do feel like I am building a strong deck that is focused on gameplay and wanting to win, while at the same time creating something unique that goes beyond the "hard" play mechanics and incorporates "soft" storytelling elements. So yeah, maybe you are right and the atmosphere really only exists in my head.
I don't think Wizards will release an entire Chinese themed set globally. The low sales numbers of the Kamigawa block are too deep of a wound for this to happen. But of course they want a piece of the huge potential Chinese market and apparently have decided they need products that are more accesible to chinese customers. I think this deck is an attempt to create a gateway drug to Magic for Chinese players that might not have the same evocative connection to Magic's fantasy themes as an average Western customer.
one of the widely held tenets of commander deckbuilding is that the deck should adhere to some sort of overarching theme. For instance, see Blackjack86's philosophy of deckbuilding:
In my experience, the most popular way to go about choosing a theme is to focus on some game mechanic or strategy (e.g. stealing/copying, cheating out fatties, reanimator etc) that may or may not synergize well with your commander. Another somewhat similar approach is to pick a legendary creature and build a deck around their abilities. A second popular method is to build the deck in a way that exemplifies a certain flavor. In this case, the theme of the deck can be inspired by a specific element of an official set storyline, e.g. an Orzhov deck (one can choose to be very strict and exclude cards which do not feel like they belong to Orzhov, such as Tocatli Honor Guard). It can also be a more general fantasy theme, like necromancy. The second kind of flavor themes lend often go very well with mechanical themes. A third kind of deck theme that is sometimes seen is more extravagant, such as a Foglio artwork tribal deck, or a deck that aims to symbolize a certain album by a favorite band, or a deck which consists only of cards with the word "salt" in their name. The possibilities here are endless.
Recently, I tried a new method of finding and implementing a theme during deckbuilding. I began with thinking about a certain feeling or atmosphere that I want the pilot and their opponents to experience during a game, and then thought about cards and strategies that would be conducive to that feeling. For instance, my Vial Smasher the Fierce/Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker deck wants to recreate the classic Evil Mastermind trope. Specifically, I was inspired by the countless sadistic choice dilemmas that supervillains from Lex Luthor to the Green Goblin have gleefully presented to their heroic adversaries, and hence included plenty of cards like Torment of Hailfire or Prince of Thralls. Another example is my (house-ruled as legendary) Tamanoa deck, where I wanted to create games that feel like my opponents are venturing into a hostile, verdant Jungle. I included plenty of global damage effects a la Pyrohemia, enrage dinos and Rite of Passage type cards. The idea is that the very same elements which make the jungle hostile and dangerous to outsiders (poisonous vines, wild animals, heat, humidity, quicksands etc) are the very fabric of life that make everything that belongs to the jungle grow and flourish. Both decks aim to evoke these feelings or atmospheres not just through their individual card artworks or mechanics, but through the very way they play out during a commander game by presenting my opponents with very specific choice situations that are meant to recreate the atmospheric clouds that inspired these decks.
I found this way of deck construction to be very rewarding and fun. It is neither looking for a pure flavor theme, nor starting out with abstract thinking about game mechanics, but sort of a synthesis of the first two ways of thematically guiding deck construction and play style I outlined above. It feels very much like painting a picture with your deck. In the ideal case, everything comes together in the end and results in a well-rounded deck that is more than the sum of its parts. While flavorful themes are often transmitted primarily via the artwork / flavor texts of the cards and not necessarily in terms of how the deck behaves during gameplay, and mechanical themes are expressed less via the flavor of the cards and more through what the cards actually do on the battlefield, this approach wants to combine both. The deck theme is not expressed only through artworks or the card mechanics alone, but rather through a certain kind of overall atmosphere that comes about during the act of playing a commander game with it. I have come to refer to these decks as "atmospheric decks".
Of course I do not claim to be the first one to build decks that work like that. On the contrary, I think the large majority of EDH decks are atmospheric decks to some degree. Nonetheless, formulating this concept and actively trying to implement it during deckbuilding changed the way I approached EDH deck construction. Instead of starting out with thinking about what I want the deck to do, I start with thinking about what I want playing (and playing against) the deck to feel like.
So, I am curious: How do you go about incorporating themes during deck construction and gameplay? Do you agree with my broad categorization of different kinds of themes? Do you think the concept of the atmospheric deck is convincing?