Ancient Stirrings is fine. I am becoming increasingly convinced that Preordain should be unbanned, though.
Totally fine with this. There are just no good reasons for one being unbanned and the other being banned at this point.
Abzan in the T8 would be sweet. Affinity would be fine, unless it's Hardened Scales with Stirrings in which case I will be even more annoyed than I am now.
That's silly. Preordain finds any card. Ancient stirrings does not. Similar cards, sure, but very different in application.
I would personally enjoy Preordain and Ponder being unbanned, but to equate them to Stirrings is disingenuous and avoiding specifics. Broad generalizations are the foundation for the constant, petulant, and unrelenting ban talks. WOTC has said that the format is currently fine and therefore I see no reason at this time to throw rhetoric on the internet suggesting otherwise. It's just people (LOUDLY) expressing preferences at this point.
Agreed, well said. It's quite noticeable as well when people are lumping decks like Amulet Titan and Lantern in with Tron and KCI as a way to add weight to their claims of the power level of Stirrings. Lantern, for example, has disappeared off the face of the earth, and this will be only the second time Amulet Titan has ever made Top 8 at a GP.
Preordain was not banned for its performance in a single deck. It was banned for its appearance in multiple decks cited as an aggregate. We can definitely analyze Stirrings on the same axis.
It's poor analysis. Ancient Stirrings is not Preordain, and the constant false equivalency only works to cheapen the argument. Preordain is a card with a flat power level, and the consistency it provides is the same regardless of the blue deck it's put in. Ancient Stirrings level of power is entirely dependent on the colorless deck that is utilizing it, and this is entirely why the card should not be banned. Casting Stirrings to pull a Reality Smasher out of your deck is demonstrably less powerful than pulling a Scrap Trawler out of a KCI deck.
If Tron and KCI are oppressively running rampant over tournaments (this remains to be seen), then target the cards that actually make the deck work. Ban KCI itself if that's the case. Banning a consistency tool for a bunch of fringe decks isn't how your facilitate a healthy meta game.
For the record, I think Preordain should be unbanned. There's already a ton of variance in Magic that not allowing decks to utilize effective consistency tools is a piss poor way to manage power levels in your meta game.
Friendly reminder that Stirrings is SUPER busted and remains a laughable contradiction with Preordain.
Ancient Stirrings is fine. I am becoming increasingly convinced that Preordain should be unbanned, though.
Totally fine with this. There are just no good reasons for one being unbanned and the other being banned at this point.
Abzan in the T8 would be sweet. Affinity would be fine, unless it's Hardened Scales with Stirrings in which case I will be even more annoyed than I am now.
That's silly. Preordain finds any card. Ancient stirrings does not. Similar cards, sure, but very different in application.
I would personally enjoy Preordain and Ponder being unbanned, but to equate them to Stirrings is disingenuous and avoiding specifics. Broad generalizations are the foundation for the constant, petulant, and unrelenting ban talks. WOTC has said that the format is currently fine and therefore I see no reason at this time to throw rhetoric on the internet suggesting otherwise. It's just people (LOUDLY) expressing preferences at this point.
Agreed, well said. It's quite noticeable as well when people are lumping decks like Amulet Titan and Lantern in with Tron and KCI as a way to add weight to their claims of the power level of Stirrings. Lantern, for example, has disappeared off the face of the earth, and this will be only the second time Amulet Titan has ever made Top 8 at a GP.
The decline of Surgical Extraction in sideboards has been really noticeable to me. Even in decks like Mardu where it makes a ton of sense have opted for crap like Nihil Spellbomb instead. This is probably a correction that could take KCI down a peg.
Are you replying to me? It's hard to tell, because your second paragraph is basically agreeing with what I wrote above.
Mox Opal is still good because with a Hardened Scales in play it's a force multiplier. In Affinity Opal is giving your Plating +1, while with a Scales out Opal is +3 minimum.
If moving counters is paramount as you say (I agree), then you would understand why the Worker is good.
In my opinion Zyrnac's deck sucks, and his videos and play are not indicative of the actual potential of Hardened Scales
Edit: Also, what makes this deck interesting, especially compared to Affinity, is how resistant to spot removal you are. If my opponent want to kill my 1 drop... Great! That's one less piece for a Steel Overseer. They don't kill my worker? Great! It's going to enable a busted kill turn.
Ramping into a Metallic Mimic with bad cards like Memnite seems much, much worse against a removal heavy meta.
Not running Arcbound Worker is a mistake, in my opinion. Having an extra source of Modular enables you to go off more regularly, and being a 1 drop is meaningful in my experience.
Often my games go something like drop Worker turn 1 (or a Sparring Construct), turn 2 drop Overseer play Mox and cast Stirrings to dig for a win con. It plays differently from Affinity in a sense then, where enabling metalcraft early isn't as big of deal. You aren't generating your explosiveness from the number of bodies you cast, but rather by how many counters you are generating.
Green isnt bad. Green is fair. Its no surprise to me that you essentially have 3 Green decks (unless you go budget).
1. Elves. Completely unfair combo kill is the ideal.
2. GW Druid. Completely unfair combo kill is the ideal.
3. BGx. Fair, Midrange.
4. GW Value. Fair, but values you out, completely creature based (cheats with Company/Chord)
I mean its simply too fair for Modern to succeed enough. I was thinking on this last night, and the number of decks that are both non-linear, and completely fair, AND successful? Extremely low number, approaching zero.
I'll pass on that all day.
It's looks to me like 9 out of the top 16 decks at GP Barcelona were non-linear (ugh I hate this term) and fair
I don't think this deck cares that much about Liliana, but she's a nice Gut Shot target. It's in the list as your standard colorless deck interaction. Pinging Noble Hierarchs and Champions before things get out of hand.
Personally, I think there's room to hone the sideboard still, it's kind of a generic good stuff pile right now. Since so few cards are actually boarded out typically, so as to not throw off the engine, I'd like to see some more silver bullets added perhaps.
The Matt Nass 75 took 9th place at GP Barcelona this weekend. Congrats to the pilot! I wonder if they're on the forum and could talk about their experiences some...
EDIT x 2: Its 2 KCI, in the top 16, and that weird Affinity build. If it can power up Affinity and thats not a flash in the pan, THEN I think it gets nuked.
Scales is not a flash in the pan. It's another Matt Nass special. He's been tuning it nearly as long as KCI with his friends which should tell you something.
The fact that people haven't caught on to the deck yet is just insanity to me.
I have a friend who plays mostly Affinity and he has been playing zyrnak's MTGO list, as well as talking with him on MTGO about game play decisions. My friend has come to the conclusion that regular Affinity is just better, but he said that it's "damn close." He was about 50% to play it at the Grand Prix Las Vegas, but went with Affinity instead, losing the last 2 rounds to finish 5-3 and not qualified for Day 2.
Since I don't know too much about Affinity personally and even sold my Affinity deck a month ago, I'll take him on his word until I hear differently. I am about to buy Affinity from another guy on FB, mostly so I have Mox Opal for KCI, so I'll know a lot more within the next 2 weeks. I don't know if I have the guts to try Hardened Scales Affinity yet...
No offense to Zyrnak, as he's definitely a good player in general, but his list is not nearly as tuned as Matt's. Zyrnak is down on Opals, has no Inkmoths for the surprise poison kills, and is trying to grind with baby Karn at times.
Scales is for real. Hopefully it's not banned today
Wow looking at the GP lists... Modern is so healthy right now, don't change anything. The only impediment to the rate at which it self corrects is the financial investment required to switch decks.
After being off Tron for a looong time and with all the commotion about Ancient Stirrings lately, I decided to take your exact 75 and a condensed print out of your side boarding guide to a 1k with 72 people yesterday and managed to pull off top 8. Thanks a lot for the work you've put in! I referenced your match notes in between rounds and it all felt right on the money.
One thing that really struck me was how much of a power house Walking Ballista was all day, especially playing Humans three(!) times. If I could run it back I'd want a third in the list, possibly cutting a Relic. Dismember always felt terrible against Humans, but I understand its utility as an out to Meddling Mage. If the deck could upgrade that slot I think things tilt in Trons favor quite a bit.
It's poor analysis. Ancient Stirrings is not Preordain, and the constant false equivalency only works to cheapen the argument. Preordain is a card with a flat power level, and the consistency it provides is the same regardless of the blue deck it's put in. Ancient Stirrings level of power is entirely dependent on the colorless deck that is utilizing it, and this is entirely why the card should not be banned. Casting Stirrings to pull a Reality Smasher out of your deck is demonstrably less powerful than pulling a Scrap Trawler out of a KCI deck.
If Tron and KCI are oppressively running rampant over tournaments (this remains to be seen), then target the cards that actually make the deck work. Ban KCI itself if that's the case. Banning a consistency tool for a bunch of fringe decks isn't how your facilitate a healthy meta game.
For the record, I think Preordain should be unbanned. There's already a ton of variance in Magic that not allowing decks to utilize effective consistency tools is a piss poor way to manage power levels in your meta game.
Agreed, well said. It's quite noticeable as well when people are lumping decks like Amulet Titan and Lantern in with Tron and KCI as a way to add weight to their claims of the power level of Stirrings. Lantern, for example, has disappeared off the face of the earth, and this will be only the second time Amulet Titan has ever made Top 8 at a GP.
Mox Opal is still good because with a Hardened Scales in play it's a force multiplier. In Affinity Opal is giving your Plating +1, while with a Scales out Opal is +3 minimum.
If moving counters is paramount as you say (I agree), then you would understand why the Worker is good.
In my opinion Zyrnac's deck sucks, and his videos and play are not indicative of the actual potential of Hardened Scales
Edit: Also, what makes this deck interesting, especially compared to Affinity, is how resistant to spot removal you are. If my opponent want to kill my 1 drop... Great! That's one less piece for a Steel Overseer. They don't kill my worker? Great! It's going to enable a busted kill turn.
Ramping into a Metallic Mimic with bad cards like Memnite seems much, much worse against a removal heavy meta.
Often my games go something like drop Worker turn 1 (or a Sparring Construct), turn 2 drop Overseer play Mox and cast Stirrings to dig for a win con. It plays differently from Affinity in a sense then, where enabling metalcraft early isn't as big of deal. You aren't generating your explosiveness from the number of bodies you cast, but rather by how many counters you are generating.
It's looks to me like 9 out of the top 16 decks at GP Barcelona were non-linear (ugh I hate this term) and fair
Personally, I think there's room to hone the sideboard still, it's kind of a generic good stuff pile right now. Since so few cards are actually boarded out typically, so as to not throw off the engine, I'd like to see some more silver bullets added perhaps.
No offense to Zyrnak, as he's definitely a good player in general, but his list is not nearly as tuned as Matt's. Zyrnak is down on Opals, has no Inkmoths for the surprise poison kills, and is trying to grind with baby Karn at times.
Scales is for real. Hopefully it's not banned today
After being off Tron for a looong time and with all the commotion about Ancient Stirrings lately, I decided to take your exact 75 and a condensed print out of your side boarding guide to a 1k with 72 people yesterday and managed to pull off top 8. Thanks a lot for the work you've put in! I referenced your match notes in between rounds and it all felt right on the money.
One thing that really struck me was how much of a power house Walking Ballista was all day, especially playing Humans three(!) times. If I could run it back I'd want a third in the list, possibly cutting a Relic. Dismember always felt terrible against Humans, but I understand its utility as an out to Meddling Mage. If the deck could upgrade that slot I think things tilt in Trons favor quite a bit.
It's episode 79 around 28 minutes, I believe
Double edit: Okay, it's in there, more like 36 minutes in