Hi, great to see all this awesome work here! I was wondering how common is As Foretold based restore balance? It seems like the cost of not having cards that cost 1 or 2 mana is pretty huge, given that the format is so fast. I've been brewing and came up with this list, would be keen to hear people's thoughts:
The basic idea is that between Kari Zev's and As Foretold, you're well set up to cast your free spells. So why not run all the good ones - vision, living end, and restore balance. You're then running 8 board wipes, giving some strong presence against creature decks. And of course, your board wipes are also your win conditions (either by resurrecting a yard or balancing out a solid play). It takes some forward planning but seems to work well in goldfishing.
Looting effects ensure you can get creatures in the graveyard, but I wonder if it should just be cut down to two colours and replace the black creature with a cycle creature. Another feature of the deck is it is a lot easier to run yourself out to 0 cards in hand, which is handy for restore balance combos.
Kari Zev's can be a bit tricky. You can sacrifice the creature to Gargadon before Restore Balance resolves, but there needs to be a creature in play to play it. That's why the deck needs to run a critical mass of creatures, so you can target your own creatures with Kari Zev's if need be.
Overall, the deck is much better at digging for Gargadon then the usual Restore Balance lists, so I think that's the biggest argument in its favour: the ability to have a solid board after the wipe.
Has anyone tried a BGR kiki chord decklist, and dropped white entirely?
We lose some of our hate, but pickup things like Inquisition and now Assassin's Trophy. The quality of BG creatures has been going up as well. Combo pieces can be 1x each of combat celebrant and zealous conscripts. I've been searching around for a creature toolbox deck after being dissatisfied with the control options in my naya kiki chord, and thought exploring black might be the way to go.
@Emzed, loving the lingering souls! I just started running them in Kiki Chord and they're crazy good so far.
Your build is the next on my list to try. I'm about $10 away from it except for the noble Hierarchs. Reckon it'll manage without them? Not sure what I'd put in to replace them, suggestions would be appreciated.
BBE + Jace is insane value for sure, but would rather have more in the deck to ensure living long enough to do those shenanigans. 2nd turn feels clunky (dork on 1, dork + oracle on 2 is the only play that really capitalizes on it, and even then you're now a bit excessive with ramping). I don't know what you'd slot in, but a three drop might be helpful (Courser would be good except is a bit of a non-bo with Jace?)
5-0 is not a terribly impressive record, but I could be missing something for sure. I do think it's quite neat with all the synergies. Evolution would be tricky in the deck, but wonder if chord could work? I don't think the curves quite work? I think it'd be cool to have something that works better with Eternal Witness, it feels clunky to have e-wit but not paths.
Rallier - agreed.
Anyone tinker with 6 drops some more? Many of my games, a 6/6 that can be chump blocked that can slowly grab 3 drops isn't that inspiring (Unless playing the value build where the three drops are a bit more inspiring). What about things like Armada Wurm? It gives much better blink value.
I don't see what BBE is doing in there, though. Seems like it hits a dud a LOT, which is an awful shame for four mana. But it does dig a bit deeper, so does increase the speed at which you can dig up the combo pieces I guess?
Has anyone tried Dire Fleet Daredevil? It seems like it's a great silver-ish bullet for harvesting cards in certain matchups, but I guess I can't really see it being worth evolving/chording into, and it's not worth running enough copies to draw it?
@maniospas, I largely agree. My only point is that Renegade Rallier is a card that is hugely versatile. You can't analyse it on just one axis, because on that axis it is almost always going to be a sub-par option (Eternal Witness is almost strictly-better in a grind sense). It's body is also a consideration occasionaly. You have to take all the corner cases into account, because they add up. In this case, they currently add up to being just a bit sub-par. But I think there's likely some builds where the corner cases add up to being quite powerful. Thanks, I'll have a look at the draw options you mention. Agreed they look like a bit of a dud - they're hugely powerful, but they slow down average tempo pretty massively if you're running more than 1-2 copies I suspect.
@Shelldell I was about to ask about people's thoughts on the best build for being removal-heavy, but I think you just answered my question. Thanks!
Regarding Renegade Rallier, it's smoothing effect on mana screw (because of the option to grab fetchlands) is quite a significant factor. Part of the reason I get away with so few lands is the balance of dorks and ralliers and oaths. So Rallier provides some value in the form of deck-building efficiency as well (that is, sometimes you draw whatever it is you put in your deck instead of the 23rd land).
From my playtesting so far, I don't want ralliers (even in a lotus build) unless I have a good density of early drops that are likely to end up in my graveyard (coiling oracle is a bit of a bomb in that regard, of course. Wall of omens is probably decent but is unlikely to die early enough, voice is obviously strong). There'll likely be a breakpoint when it starts to get quite good. And of course, a second oath is good but quite unreliable to draw TWO oaths early, and have the mana to play them efficiently, etc.
Has anyone tried a wall-of-omens heavy build? I saw a list running 4, and I was immediately intrigued, but lost the list! I worry that it puts us in the extremely durdly category, but I wonder if anyone has examined control-ish builds? I suppose those would be Jeskai. Yeah, nevermind, mostly forget this part.
It's possible that he did not think to put in Noble, as often Birds is a go-to in these sorts of decks.
That said, BOP/P&K means 5 extra cards that put something flying on the table. I imagine that was something that could be extremely relevant for chump blocking.
@Maniospas, you run Baloth in the main, right? As I outlined in another post, I think that's potentially a significant advantage over Siege Rhino against burn (although if you're running several, I'm not sure). Also, being 5c Saheeli means a more painful mana base and thus a weaker burn matchup, so I suspect the matchup is not as favoured for Emzed. Lantern I always felt like we had a decent shot at, would be curious how you found the matchup @Emzed. Titanshift is interesting, as in my early posts that was something I expressed concern about + suggested that the way to beat it is to combo ASAP (although in your case, sin collector might be the best way to beat it). How did you find that matchup?
As for Fleecemane Lion, I was arriving at a similar conclusion, although will likely test it just in case. The most common cases of Fleecemane being useful:
- Fits into aggressive builds (as a 3/3 body on turn 2, it's a reasonable threat).
- Very likely baits removal (making it easier to combo or land bigger threats).
- As a high-priority target for your opponent to kill, it has great synergy with renegade rallier.
- Fleecemane Lion is a much better late game top deck than Nacatl/Watchwolf.
Some of the more niche/rare benefits:
- Can go monstrous or threaten going monstrous. This is way better in Kiki Chord where you want to leave mana open on their turn, but still potentially useful here. It represents an 'answer or die' in some matchups, which always has some potential value.
I'm wanting to try some more aggressive beatdown builds, and was struggling to find a two drop I liked (Tarmogoyf has some very weak arguments against it and the very strong argument that I don't have $400). Will let you know if it goes well!
EDIT: Terminus did occur to me, and you're right, it absolutely wrecks both the monstrous benefits and the rallier synergy. Definitely non-viable if that's a decent share of the meta.
Emzed, makes sense, I'll put it on my list to acquire if I get a chance!
Regarding Jace... Has anyone tried Fleecemane Lion recently? The card was a big factor in the only tournament I've gotten first in (Standard GW aggro). The lack of value production is worrisome, but reading 'win the game if you hit 5 mana' in some matchups is pretty useful. He can only die to Terminus or Liliana/sac effects, I believe (out of commonly played things).
Another exciting take on it. Definitely like the idea of upping the siege rhinos if you're going to play them at all. I like the closing games aspect of Siege Rhino the most, for when you just need to burn the face. It may be a much better strategy than running 4 bolts.
Inclusion of Lingering Souls seems like another powerful decision, and goes a long way towards making black convincing. I like that you have these powerful Abzan cards and still have the option of comboing quickly for matchups where your main plan doesn't work.
Sad to hear Blade Splicer works so well, now I definitely have to pick some up ;P
How are you finding Wingmate Roc? It seems like sometimes it would be an insane value engine, but if you're in a bad state and can't attack profitably, seems pretty rough?
@Lectrys, that's an excellent point, you just get to cast it so it goes on the stack? Awesome interaction then
Maniospas, fair enough. And worth remembering that you'll probably board out some of those mana decks in grindy games, so that means they'll come out even less often. But I'm dubious about noble being better than cobra (the only time it is is when we need to be attacking with a 4/3 specifically. Is there a planeswalker with 4 loyalty we need to hit on turn 4?). Or am I missing something?
And of course with archangel of thune, cobra represents a threat (although ironically, so do all the mana dorks xD). Perhaps archangel of thune would suit your deck? Although given it's lack of actually doing anything upon resolving, it may be too weak if it's not a combo piece? Evolution into our angel being pathed sounds pretty bad. Although your mana base has several ghost quarters, is there room for 1-2 gavony township? They can go a long way towards mitigating the weaknesses of a deck full of dorks. And gavony is easy to tutor up with Knight or Oath.
Also would wonder if Knight should be courser of kruphix because he synergises with fetchlands, BBE (in that he lets you know what the top card of your deck is). Although I'm pretty biased towards him And revealing your top card is pretty serious information fail. Also dubious of e-wit!
EDIT: Or more likely, you already win all the grindy games and I'm going overboard, it's all the other matchups that the deck struggles with that deserves the focus (thus the ghost quarters?)
I'm not sure I understand the "we don't want to hit two drops so let's have a heavier emphasis on 1-drop dorks" approach. 2 mana dorks still allow a turn 3 BBE, while also being a better cascade target. In Maniospas build, for instance, 7/32 targets are very poor hits off of BBE, and I don't see any evolution plays lining up that I like (love your other builds though, Maniospas!)
What about something inspired by Hoogland's kiki build? It has 12 rampers (cobra/oracle/rallier) that function well with BBE and the deck. However, the deck is built to synergise with chord of calling (rampers that provide mana through means other than their body, so they can also tap to boost chord). Throwing in BBE negates one of the most powerful things about the build
In terms of BBE, I think the deck is about as good as we're going to get it. Your outcomes are:
* 12 situationally powerful (bolt, oath, Evolution)
* 4 poor outcomes with a decent body (Cobra)
* 16 strong outcomes (Voice, Rallier, Oracle, Saheeli) - 5/4 power draw a card or 6/4 power, no revolt are both pretty strong outcomes for 4 mana, I'd say.
EDIT: Obviously we could increase the power of the BBE outcomes by swapping the ralliers for Tireless Tracker or whatever, and just have the 8 two drops for ramp. But the point remains that it's just not as powerful as it seems like it would be in GBR.
Worth noting that one of the best outcomes (BBE into Voice) is not that superior to a line of play our deck already runs (Rallier into Voice).
Just whipped up there's lots of problems with this deck, but here's the issues with BBE:
*If running BBE, you have to run other 4+ drops to evolve into, and have a plan for it (and if running dorks, your 3 drops have to be worth evolving into).
*In Kiki Chord, this is solved by running restoration angels. They're a great evolve/chord target.
*You want to minimise the misses: your dorks should be DRS, and everything else a payoff card. Jund/Junk sorta decks seem like the perfect place.
*You can't really run more than 1-2 chords if you're running BBE, because it is just a terrible thing to hit (about the same as a mana dork most times, though). So doesn't fit as well into an angel/chord deck.
*Ideally you want a deck where every card is just generically a payoff card. You have no control over what you hit. In an already inconsistent deck, you want as much control as possible by having specific tutoring options. Again, Jund/Junk seems like the place for it.
*As someone said, you want to be able to capitalise on the body. Archangel of Thune for instance could turn it into something pretty scary (BBE into lotus cobra and a stalled board state, with archangel of thune coming down sometime soon after and building up your board is pretty cool).
So... There's some obviously pretty powerful lines of play with it, but I'm dubious of the deck building requirements (the biggest one being everything that is 3 mana or below should be a generically high-impact card when cast for free).
Enough of a boost that we want to run so many 4 drops? Although it does open up more 2/4/6 builds. Doesn't work with chords at all, of course, so don't want it in builds with chord I suspect. Also doesn't generally combine with silver bullets well, so will have to be quite careful with the ratios.
But agreed, BBE into Saheeli, Renegade Rallier (if active), Voice, Coiling Oracle (if used), etc all seem useful. Oath is okay in some matchups, broken in others.
Birds of paradise, lotus cobra, and silver bullets are the only undesirable hits (and that gets way better post-board). That I think is probably going to be one of the critical things - the average value will likely be quite high.
Although on a serious note, how do we win the value game against any blue control deck now? A resolved Jace in a stalled/grindy board is going to be end the game on the spot, it seems like. So the grindy/value game that we often win that matchup with is now a problem (assuming Saheeli wins against UW, etc control the same way Kiki does, value grind?)
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Island
3 bloodstained mire
4 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
3 scalding tarn
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Faithless Looting
4 Kari Zev's Expertise
4 Living End
4 Restore Balance
4 Serum Visions
3 Tormenting Voice
4 Greater Gargadon
2 Insolent Neonate
2 Nihilith
3 Simian Spirit Guide
Enchantment
4 As Foretold
Looting effects ensure you can get creatures in the graveyard, but I wonder if it should just be cut down to two colours and replace the black creature with a cycle creature. Another feature of the deck is it is a lot easier to run yourself out to 0 cards in hand, which is handy for restore balance combos.
Kari Zev's can be a bit tricky. You can sacrifice the creature to Gargadon before Restore Balance resolves, but there needs to be a creature in play to play it. That's why the deck needs to run a critical mass of creatures, so you can target your own creatures with Kari Zev's if need be.
Overall, the deck is much better at digging for Gargadon then the usual Restore Balance lists, so I think that's the biggest argument in its favour: the ability to have a solid board after the wipe.
Anyway, would love some feedback!
We lose some of our hate, but pickup things like Inquisition and now Assassin's Trophy. The quality of BG creatures has been going up as well. Combo pieces can be 1x each of combat celebrant and zealous conscripts. I've been searching around for a creature toolbox deck after being dissatisfied with the control options in my naya kiki chord, and thought exploring black might be the way to go.
Your build is the next on my list to try. I'm about $10 away from it except for the noble Hierarchs. Reckon it'll manage without them? Not sure what I'd put in to replace them, suggestions would be appreciated.
5-0 is not a terribly impressive record, but I could be missing something for sure. I do think it's quite neat with all the synergies. Evolution would be tricky in the deck, but wonder if chord could work? I don't think the curves quite work? I think it'd be cool to have something that works better with Eternal Witness, it feels clunky to have e-wit but not paths.
Rallier - agreed.
Anyone tinker with 6 drops some more? Many of my games, a 6/6 that can be chump blocked that can slowly grab 3 drops isn't that inspiring (Unless playing the value build where the three drops are a bit more inspiring). What about things like Armada Wurm? It gives much better blink value.
I don't see what BBE is doing in there, though. Seems like it hits a dud a LOT, which is an awful shame for four mana. But it does dig a bit deeper, so does increase the speed at which you can dig up the combo pieces I guess?
@maniospas, I largely agree. My only point is that Renegade Rallier is a card that is hugely versatile. You can't analyse it on just one axis, because on that axis it is almost always going to be a sub-par option (Eternal Witness is almost strictly-better in a grind sense). It's body is also a consideration occasionaly. You have to take all the corner cases into account, because they add up. In this case, they currently add up to being just a bit sub-par. But I think there's likely some builds where the corner cases add up to being quite powerful. Thanks, I'll have a look at the draw options you mention. Agreed they look like a bit of a dud - they're hugely powerful, but they slow down average tempo pretty massively if you're running more than 1-2 copies I suspect.
@Shelldell I was about to ask about people's thoughts on the best build for being removal-heavy, but I think you just answered my question. Thanks!
From my playtesting so far, I don't want ralliers (even in a lotus build) unless I have a good density of early drops that are likely to end up in my graveyard (coiling oracle is a bit of a bomb in that regard, of course. Wall of omens is probably decent but is unlikely to die early enough, voice is obviously strong). There'll likely be a breakpoint when it starts to get quite good. And of course, a second oath is good but quite unreliable to draw TWO oaths early, and have the mana to play them efficiently, etc.
Has anyone tried a wall-of-omens heavy build? I saw a list running 4, and I was immediately intrigued, but lost the list! I worry that it puts us in the extremely durdly category, but I wonder if anyone has examined control-ish builds? I suppose those would be Jeskai. Yeah, nevermind, mostly forget this part.
That said, BOP/P&K means 5 extra cards that put something flying on the table. I imagine that was something that could be extremely relevant for chump blocking.
As for Fleecemane Lion, I was arriving at a similar conclusion, although will likely test it just in case. The most common cases of Fleecemane being useful:
- Fits into aggressive builds (as a 3/3 body on turn 2, it's a reasonable threat).
- Very likely baits removal (making it easier to combo or land bigger threats).
- As a high-priority target for your opponent to kill, it has great synergy with renegade rallier.
- Fleecemane Lion is a much better late game top deck than Nacatl/Watchwolf.
Some of the more niche/rare benefits:
- Can go monstrous or threaten going monstrous. This is way better in Kiki Chord where you want to leave mana open on their turn, but still potentially useful here. It represents an 'answer or die' in some matchups, which always has some potential value.
I'm wanting to try some more aggressive beatdown builds, and was struggling to find a two drop I liked (Tarmogoyf has some very weak arguments against it and the very strong argument that I don't have $400). Will let you know if it goes well!
EDIT: Terminus did occur to me, and you're right, it absolutely wrecks both the monstrous benefits and the rallier synergy. Definitely non-viable if that's a decent share of the meta.
Regarding Jace... Has anyone tried Fleecemane Lion recently? The card was a big factor in the only tournament I've gotten first in (Standard GW aggro). The lack of value production is worrisome, but reading 'win the game if you hit 5 mana' in some matchups is pretty useful. He can only die to Terminus or Liliana/sac effects, I believe (out of commonly played things).
Inclusion of Lingering Souls seems like another powerful decision, and goes a long way towards making black convincing. I like that you have these powerful Abzan cards and still have the option of comboing quickly for matchups where your main plan doesn't work.
Sad to hear Blade Splicer works so well, now I definitely have to pick some up ;P
How are you finding Wingmate Roc? It seems like sometimes it would be an insane value engine, but if you're in a bad state and can't attack profitably, seems pretty rough?
Maniospas, fair enough. And worth remembering that you'll probably board out some of those mana decks in grindy games, so that means they'll come out even less often. But I'm dubious about noble being better than cobra (the only time it is is when we need to be attacking with a 4/3 specifically. Is there a planeswalker with 4 loyalty we need to hit on turn 4?). Or am I missing something?
And of course with archangel of thune, cobra represents a threat (although ironically, so do all the mana dorks xD). Perhaps archangel of thune would suit your deck? Although given it's lack of actually doing anything upon resolving, it may be too weak if it's not a combo piece? Evolution into our angel being pathed sounds pretty bad. Although your mana base has several ghost quarters, is there room for 1-2 gavony township? They can go a long way towards mitigating the weaknesses of a deck full of dorks. And gavony is easy to tutor up with Knight or Oath.
Also would wonder if Knight should be courser of kruphix because he synergises with fetchlands, BBE (in that he lets you know what the top card of your deck is). Although I'm pretty biased towards him
EDIT: Or more likely, you already win all the grindy games and I'm going overboard, it's all the other matchups that the deck struggles with that deserves the focus (thus the ghost quarters?)
What about something inspired by Hoogland's kiki build? It has 12 rampers (cobra/oracle/rallier) that function well with BBE and the deck. However, the deck is built to synergise with chord of calling (rampers that provide mana through means other than their body, so they can also tap to boost chord). Throwing in BBE negates one of the most powerful things about the build
1 Raging Ravine
2 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
2 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
1 Temple Garden
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Coiling Oracle
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Renegade Rallier
2 Felidar Guardian
2 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Archangel of Thune
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Eldritch Evolution
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Oath of Nissa
In terms of BBE, I think the deck is about as good as we're going to get it. Your outcomes are:
* 12 situationally powerful (bolt, oath, Evolution)
* 4 poor outcomes with a decent body (Cobra)
* 16 strong outcomes (Voice, Rallier, Oracle, Saheeli) - 5/4 power draw a card or 6/4 power, no revolt are both pretty strong outcomes for 4 mana, I'd say.
EDIT: Obviously we could increase the power of the BBE outcomes by swapping the ralliers for Tireless Tracker or whatever, and just have the 8 two drops for ramp. But the point remains that it's just not as powerful as it seems like it would be in GBR.
Worth noting that one of the best outcomes (BBE into Voice) is not that superior to a line of play our deck already runs (Rallier into Voice).
Just whipped up there's lots of problems with this deck, but here's the issues with BBE:
*If running BBE, you have to run other 4+ drops to evolve into, and have a plan for it (and if running dorks, your 3 drops have to be worth evolving into).
*In Kiki Chord, this is solved by running restoration angels. They're a great evolve/chord target.
*You want to minimise the misses: your dorks should be DRS, and everything else a payoff card. Jund/Junk sorta decks seem like the perfect place.
*You can't really run more than 1-2 chords if you're running BBE, because it is just a terrible thing to hit (about the same as a mana dork most times, though). So doesn't fit as well into an angel/chord deck.
*Ideally you want a deck where every card is just generically a payoff card. You have no control over what you hit. In an already inconsistent deck, you want as much control as possible by having specific tutoring options. Again, Jund/Junk seems like the place for it.
*As someone said, you want to be able to capitalise on the body. Archangel of Thune for instance could turn it into something pretty scary (BBE into lotus cobra and a stalled board state, with archangel of thune coming down sometime soon after and building up your board is pretty cool).
So... There's some obviously pretty powerful lines of play with it, but I'm dubious of the deck building requirements (the biggest one being everything that is 3 mana or below should be a generically high-impact card when cast for free).
But agreed, BBE into Saheeli, Renegade Rallier (if active), Voice, Coiling Oracle (if used), etc all seem useful. Oath is okay in some matchups, broken in others.
Birds of paradise, lotus cobra, and silver bullets are the only undesirable hits (and that gets way better post-board). That I think is probably going to be one of the critical things - the average value will likely be quite high.
Although on a serious note, how do we win the value game against any blue control deck now? A resolved Jace in a stalled/grindy board is going to be end the game on the spot, it seems like. So the grindy/value game that we often win that matchup with is now a problem (assuming Saheeli wins against UW, etc control the same way Kiki does, value grind?)