Hey guys, planning on taking the following list into Baltimore for the Modern Classic this Sunday. Spent some time tweaking to the aggro/creature heavy meta and decided on this after play testing against Humans,GR Eldrazi, Elves, Burn, etc.
Sorry for linking, not sure how to post deck lists in here yet.
The only question marks my play group has right now are the side board slots for Tidehollow Sculler and Surgical Extraction. They feel like Tidehollow is shaky at best and Surgical isn't great in the current meta. I'm open to moving out 1 Surgical and upping to a second Damping Sphere, but like having one permanent answer in Surgical with all my discard routes.
As far as Sculler, I bring him in for combo matchups, aggro matchups that have low numbers of removal, and non-creature decks/control to supplement the discard package and to take problematic cards away, keep a solid pace midgame. I know it's better served in decks like Taxes and such, but wanted to give him a try this go round. If others have better ideas, I'm obviously open to them.
Ironically enough, I retired from playing Skred Red (at least benched it) in favor of Abzan because I've been building and tweaking it over the last two years and want to start becoming a competitive Abzan player. Skred is probably better (seems based on other threads I've read) for this tourney as far as meta call, but I feel like if I don't start playing Abzan now I never will.
I went 2 - 1 with it at my local shop (Guild Gaming) last Monday night, beating Elves 2 - 1, Mardu Death's Shadow 2 - 1 and losing to Humans 2 - 0. This was before tweaks though, where I added 2 more removal to main board, and another Damnation post board. I almost forced a game 3 against Humans, but just couldn't get the answers drawn midgame.
K0olmini, thanks for this man. Something good to ponder regarding if what they each do individually will gel together with the cube. I'll look at the given archetypes for each (outside of tribes) and see if the support is there. Weeding out dead cards should be easy enough, it's just making those borderline cuts and implementing the powerful cards correctly without creating imbalances in the cube.
Do you actually have a list still? I know you said it was preliminary, but I'd be interested in seeing rough ideas if you have anything to go off.
Paper 100%. As others have stated, the social element can't be recreated at the online level no matter how hard you try. Regardless of what is chosen, I feel it's best to put all your money in one place unless you just have a ridiculous income and can do both.
I also like knowing I physically own the cards as opposed to having some virtual library online. Probably just a comfort thing tbh. Having a collection to dig through and do other formats with if you're a casual player (block constructed types and such) can be pretty cool too.
While I'm not a huge fan of SaffronOlive's Brews on MtGGoldfish, I do think the dude has a good way of explaining things in his articles. This one is exactly up your alley as to what you are asking. Essentially it is figuring out your mana curve, then basing the total off of that.
As far as fast/slow lands go, you're going to want to figure out the type of deck you run. Certain decks will want lands to be untapped upon coming in early, rather than later (aggro/tempo). Other decks like midrange and some control are ok with a land coming in tapped here and there, so long as they have enough open to respond at instant speed for things like kill spells, counters, etc.
Man lands I can't really speak to the when to incorporate part as I'm not a brewer myself, but they are seen more (imho) in midrange and control decks that sometimes need a final jab/damage pushthrough, blocker mid to late game, or for utility purposes (Shambling Vent's lifelink in Abzan, Hissing Quagmire's Deathtouch in B/G, etc.).
If you scroll to the bottom of the article linked, the last image gives a good idea as to how many lands per deck.
My Avacyn tatt I finished back in April of 2017. Still need a little bit of work under the plains concept art/landscape. But, eventually I'm adding two D-6's there and a D-20 with the Avacyn Restored as the "20". I don't have an up to date pic, but final touch-up he shaded in the spear.
I have a custom LOTR sleeve I am working on as well other arm. Basically the Tree of Gondor naturalized in a spring color concept to symbolize birth. My kids birthstone is tangled up in the roots of the tree instead of using the sword. Then I have elvish script (Tengwar) going through the branches (his name and birthday). Eventually going to add our two favorite LOTR/Hobbit characters to the sides of the tree in Lego art (Gimli and Thorin).
I feel like lands might be a bit heavy at 14, I typically run 12, and see most stock lists as 12 - 13.
Otherwise I like the Collective Brutality main. Might not be 100% sold on 2, but could see wanting one in opener as a second spell T2. It definitely provides a little spice and versatility with it being efficient removal, allowing you to dredge further, getting around chalice on 1, synergy with LED, etc. I just know most games I feel I'd rather have that T1 start with a Faithless Looting or Careful Study.
Might bump up SB to be slightly more reactive to grave hate. An Ancient Grudge maybe or Chain of Vapor (all encompassing).
Rookie here though, just offering some insight.
Glad to see recent posts in here as I'm getting back into Legacy as well.
Yeah, we had a time period with our EDH decks where infinite was all the rage, and it has since tamed. We have one guy that runs an obnoxious Animar, Soul of Elements, and the protections make it kind of annoying for others removal suites. Usually goes off with Walking Ballista to kill everyone turn 5 or so every game. So he gets hated on quickly and often by the aggro decks like Krenko, Mob Boss and such.
I feel like if you limit that stuff (at least where it makes sense) and don't just jam 4 tutors in every deck or run T2/T3 combo all the time, it could be fun. At least with such a small group, you can dedicate SB's to the obnoxious decks and have various, very strong hate cards with the minimal restrictions.
It will mostly just be a balance issue up front as to what archetypes we settle into and how we each adapt. I still have no clue what I'd want to build. Messed around with a mono black demon sacrifice deck (zombie fodder) with Bridge from Below yesterday. Certainly nothing broken, but fun and fast with various win cons. Plus being able to Tragic Slip anything with the constant abuse of the GY mechanics is cool too.
So, working with my playgroup on expanding our chill nights to possibly include casual (how we all started 4 years ago). More so to bring us back to our roots, but allow for some fun, chill play, instead of all tense and super serious Modern nights.
The big concern is money sink for what we will get out of it, and how often we will play.
My initial thought was to make it simple to reduce costs and say no shocks, fetches, get creative with mana-fixing. Maybe keeping deck concepts and creations to two-color rather than any amount (less all encompassing sideboards that can hose certain archetypes), and limit tutor use or not use any to make decks work for combo'ing out too early in games.
We aren't the type to just want to play broken stuff. We have a fair bit of Johnny. And while we wouldn't want to limit the innovation or ways to build decks, we do want to consider all factors to include that ugly "budget" word.
I'm sure others will point us to other possible formats, but we are really looking to play some powerful stuff that maybe isn't viable in Modern, or sift through older cards from non-Modern sets, creating unique builds not up to the par of legacy, but somewhere inbetween.
We don't have a particular budget for decks (maybe something that could be considered), but we probably wouldn't want to be breaking bank to play a casual, kitchen table type of Magic either.
I'll try and sit down tonight or tomorrow and upload it to vault for reference. Thanks for the tips on mana fixing and staples, I hadn't really considered that much. Those all sounds like solid ideas.
Just trying to generate some ideas of the best route to go for a super novice cube designer (never developed one solo).
I have an Innistrad block singleton cube I found online from www.cubetutor.com some 4 years back that I made. It includes Innistrad, Dark Ascension and Avacyn Restored. For the life of me I can't find the list and don't currently have it posted on my mtgvault account as it just didn't see a ton of play when I initially built it due to me not really having a large enough, consistent playgroup.
So, now I have enough bodies, but the cube was built as a 4 person, 180 card cube with deck archetypes that feel very powerful with lots of synnergy (typical wolves, vampires, zombies, spirits, etc.). The most powerful card is Snapcaster Mage and it does not run Liliana of the Veil.
Ideally, what I would like to do is expand the cube to make it a 360 card cube without having to redo the first half of it (know this may be possible without at least small tweaks). I was thinking it would make sense to include Shadows over Innistrad and Eldritch Moon (despite it being a relatively blah set). I just don't know if there would be 180 possible, powerful enough cards to add to the mix, or how I'd choose them without breaking the current balance of the cube.
Would it just make sense to see if people have designed a singleton cube for that block, and then combine/merge the two together? Should I post a list of my current cube here and see if people have auto-inclusions to add first based on what I have?
Looking for anything to guide me along as I think it could be a really fun play given we are all very much into the current archetypes presented (those in my playgroup).
New primer is legitimate. Stoked to see all my numbers are well within the parameters of the mentioned deck lists. Much appreciated as far as all the work put into this. It will definitely be the primer I visit most often as Abzan is my current main deck.
I just printed the sideboard guide as it's going to be extremely helpful. So many times I'm on the fence about a certain card in a particular match-up.
Been playing Magic for some four years now. Just curious in general how often "landfall" creatures are printed, and whether or not any of the upcoming sets might be good opportunities for it. I imagine it's cyclic like anything else, but having been around for as short a period as I am, I haven't been able to see cycles come and go much.
I've been brewing a lot lately and just love the concept, so it would be cool if a couple more worthy of eternal play found their way into the fold (with fetch, shocking being a common phenomenon in Modern). I know for a while there was some of it in Zoo decks back when I had started competitive play in Modern a couple years back. Not sure how cards like this would effect Standard (can't imagine they'd be great), or whether or not they would need to be released in a Non-Standard print.
I think it's great if you're in a play group and can vouch for how much of a refreshing change it can be from the other eternal formats. So many times you sit there and jam Modern for hours after researching the meta and prepping sideboards for life. Or you have these long, politically involved games of EDH going on usually when one or two persons in a group have nothing going on, others are comboing off obnoxious infinite loops, and one is just padded in his little bubble of a prison you can't kill me deck (sound familiar?).
Then you have Pauper, the epitome of a casual, chill format. It's competitive because the decks have power, and you get to play awesome cards that aren't Modern legal as others have mentioned.
But, the real appeal I have seen, is I feel like the community that embraces Pauper really just loves Magic for the social, chill element of the game. I can't remember any matches I've played in my play group or a shop that haven't just felt like there is nothing riding on it. You're just flinging these common spells and having a good time.
It has a great collector's appeal as well. I know personally, my friends and I have sat for hours sifting through boxes upon boxes, upon boxes of cards building all the meta decks in the format (heck, doubles and triples of them even). It gives meaning to the cards you've stashed that Mom's told you to pawn off.
And you can still brew even though the format is established if you want a funsies deck (common conception is the meta is locked and solved). My first deck was R/G landfall with Makindi Sliderunner, Plated Geopede, Snapping Gnarlid, and Valakut Predator. That was fun, though it only won some .400 to .450 part of the time. I really enjoyed the deck.
Closing remarks, I think the fluctuation in prices will be short lived (though I'm no speculator) and the diehards will stay and contribute to the format, while others will come and quickly go. Maybe the community adds a few more players. But, like all other formats, cards will find their price home and the volatility will end.
Lastly, if you think Pauper is fun... Play some Pauper Commander . Grove Rumbler ftw! THAT deck is fun! Haha.
Didn't see anything yet in current lists on this thread or really on other sites. But, does Reckless Rage in Rivals warrant us looking back at Boros Reckoner in the main deck? Works well with our newer toy, Hazoret the Fervent too.
I know that Reckless wouldn't be a 3 or 4 of type card, so bringing Boros back to jam a couple in isn't going to be better than current lists. But, just curious as to people's thoughts on the card and if there is brewing room. It's better creature removal than Lightning Bolt, and still almost gets a Bolt in on the player if Boros is in play. Though, I'm assuming to make the card worth it, you'd have to run 4 Boros... Not really 100% positive what the list would have to look like or if you'd just go all in strategy and play those with Blasphemous Act and even change one of the four drops to Spitemare MB as well.
For someone who ran Boros for roughly 2 years, I can say I've been happy after switching him out and finally embracing the Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Eternal Scourge lists.
I guess the biggest drawback of the card though is finding a creature on our end to target when we don't have a Boros in play :/ .
I experimented with a Young Pyromancer, heavy instant/sorcery build in the past with Skred. Makes me curious as to how well it would function with more tokens out there. You could run something like Hangarback Walker too to negate some of the board state disadvantage of roasting Pyro tokens. Turn 3 Hangarback on 2 with Mind Stone in play still allows a four drop bomb. Could also block a threat with a token and post combat deal 2 more to 3 toughness creatures. Just thinking out loud.
Yeah, I myself love Pauper and the guys in my group have a deck each. My son and I play a lot more than they do though, because they feel like with Modern decks set aside and the focus on cheap formats, their decks are not paying out the value put in. I see it both ways, but I do also know how easy it is to reel people in with a real budget option like Pauper. I think your point is spot on there. Just have to convince the rest of the guys that giving up an hour of the night or so to allow someone new in, explain basics and stuff is worth our time. Because, in the long run, we should be able to rope some in here or there.
I'm going to try working my FnM's around me when I get a chance once a month or so. Hopefully we can find one or two that fit our group play style, and mesh with our current personalities.
We had a few of the type you speak of when we first started with "casual" (our first, "format"). Then our mentor turned us onto Modern.
Sorry for linking, not sure how to post deck lists in here yet.
https://www.mtgvault.com/sindrik8x/decks/abzan-junk-modern-2/
The only question marks my play group has right now are the side board slots for Tidehollow Sculler and Surgical Extraction. They feel like Tidehollow is shaky at best and Surgical isn't great in the current meta. I'm open to moving out 1 Surgical and upping to a second Damping Sphere, but like having one permanent answer in Surgical with all my discard routes.
As far as Sculler, I bring him in for combo matchups, aggro matchups that have low numbers of removal, and non-creature decks/control to supplement the discard package and to take problematic cards away, keep a solid pace midgame. I know it's better served in decks like Taxes and such, but wanted to give him a try this go round. If others have better ideas, I'm obviously open to them.
Ironically enough, I retired from playing Skred Red (at least benched it) in favor of Abzan because I've been building and tweaking it over the last two years and want to start becoming a competitive Abzan player. Skred is probably better (seems based on other threads I've read) for this tourney as far as meta call, but I feel like if I don't start playing Abzan now I never will.
I went 2 - 1 with it at my local shop (Guild Gaming) last Monday night, beating Elves 2 - 1, Mardu Death's Shadow 2 - 1 and losing to Humans 2 - 0. This was before tweaks though, where I added 2 more removal to main board, and another Damnation post board. I almost forced a game 3 against Humans, but just couldn't get the answers drawn midgame.
Do you actually have a list still? I know you said it was preliminary, but I'd be interested in seeing rough ideas if you have anything to go off.
I also like knowing I physically own the cards as opposed to having some virtual library online. Probably just a comfort thing tbh. Having a collection to dig through and do other formats with if you're a casual player (block constructed types and such) can be pretty cool too.
As far as fast/slow lands go, you're going to want to figure out the type of deck you run. Certain decks will want lands to be untapped upon coming in early, rather than later (aggro/tempo). Other decks like midrange and some control are ok with a land coming in tapped here and there, so long as they have enough open to respond at instant speed for things like kill spells, counters, etc.
Man lands I can't really speak to the when to incorporate part as I'm not a brewer myself, but they are seen more (imho) in midrange and control decks that sometimes need a final jab/damage pushthrough, blocker mid to late game, or for utility purposes (Shambling Vent's lifelink in Abzan, Hissing Quagmire's Deathtouch in B/G, etc.).
If you scroll to the bottom of the article linked, the last image gives a good idea as to how many lands per deck.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/brewer-s-minute-how-many-lands
I have a custom LOTR sleeve I am working on as well other arm. Basically the Tree of Gondor naturalized in a spring color concept to symbolize birth. My kids birthstone is tangled up in the roots of the tree instead of using the sword. Then I have elvish script (Tengwar) going through the branches (his name and birthday). Eventually going to add our two favorite LOTR/Hobbit characters to the sides of the tree in Lego art (Gimli and Thorin).
Otherwise I like the Collective Brutality main. Might not be 100% sold on 2, but could see wanting one in opener as a second spell T2. It definitely provides a little spice and versatility with it being efficient removal, allowing you to dredge further, getting around chalice on 1, synergy with LED, etc. I just know most games I feel I'd rather have that T1 start with a Faithless Looting or Careful Study.
Might bump up SB to be slightly more reactive to grave hate. An Ancient Grudge maybe or Chain of Vapor (all encompassing).
Rookie here though, just offering some insight.
Glad to see recent posts in here as I'm getting back into Legacy as well.
I feel like if you limit that stuff (at least where it makes sense) and don't just jam 4 tutors in every deck or run T2/T3 combo all the time, it could be fun. At least with such a small group, you can dedicate SB's to the obnoxious decks and have various, very strong hate cards with the minimal restrictions.
It will mostly just be a balance issue up front as to what archetypes we settle into and how we each adapt. I still have no clue what I'd want to build. Messed around with a mono black demon sacrifice deck (zombie fodder) with Bridge from Below yesterday. Certainly nothing broken, but fun and fast with various win cons. Plus being able to Tragic Slip anything with the constant abuse of the GY mechanics is cool too.
The big concern is money sink for what we will get out of it, and how often we will play.
My initial thought was to make it simple to reduce costs and say no shocks, fetches, get creative with mana-fixing. Maybe keeping deck concepts and creations to two-color rather than any amount (less all encompassing sideboards that can hose certain archetypes), and limit tutor use or not use any to make decks work for combo'ing out too early in games.
We aren't the type to just want to play broken stuff. We have a fair bit of Johnny. And while we wouldn't want to limit the innovation or ways to build decks, we do want to consider all factors to include that ugly "budget" word.
I'm sure others will point us to other possible formats, but we are really looking to play some powerful stuff that maybe isn't viable in Modern, or sift through older cards from non-Modern sets, creating unique builds not up to the par of legacy, but somewhere inbetween.
We don't have a particular budget for decks (maybe something that could be considered), but we probably wouldn't want to be breaking bank to play a casual, kitchen table type of Magic either.
Thoughts for those that have done similar???
I'll try and sit down tonight or tomorrow and upload it to vault for reference. Thanks for the tips on mana fixing and staples, I hadn't really considered that much. Those all sounds like solid ideas.
Just trying to generate some ideas of the best route to go for a super novice cube designer (never developed one solo).
I have an Innistrad block singleton cube I found online from www.cubetutor.com some 4 years back that I made. It includes Innistrad, Dark Ascension and Avacyn Restored. For the life of me I can't find the list and don't currently have it posted on my mtgvault account as it just didn't see a ton of play when I initially built it due to me not really having a large enough, consistent playgroup.
So, now I have enough bodies, but the cube was built as a 4 person, 180 card cube with deck archetypes that feel very powerful with lots of synnergy (typical wolves, vampires, zombies, spirits, etc.). The most powerful card is Snapcaster Mage and it does not run Liliana of the Veil.
Ideally, what I would like to do is expand the cube to make it a 360 card cube without having to redo the first half of it (know this may be possible without at least small tweaks). I was thinking it would make sense to include Shadows over Innistrad and Eldritch Moon (despite it being a relatively blah set). I just don't know if there would be 180 possible, powerful enough cards to add to the mix, or how I'd choose them without breaking the current balance of the cube.
Would it just make sense to see if people have designed a singleton cube for that block, and then combine/merge the two together? Should I post a list of my current cube here and see if people have auto-inclusions to add first based on what I have?
Looking for anything to guide me along as I think it could be a really fun play given we are all very much into the current archetypes presented (those in my playgroup).
Thanks all.
I just printed the sideboard guide as it's going to be extremely helpful. So many times I'm on the fence about a certain card in a particular match-up.
Thanks FlyingDelver!
I've been brewing a lot lately and just love the concept, so it would be cool if a couple more worthy of eternal play found their way into the fold (with fetch, shocking being a common phenomenon in Modern). I know for a while there was some of it in Zoo decks back when I had started competitive play in Modern a couple years back. Not sure how cards like this would effect Standard (can't imagine they'd be great), or whether or not they would need to be released in a Non-Standard print.
Thoughts?
Then you have Pauper, the epitome of a casual, chill format. It's competitive because the decks have power, and you get to play awesome cards that aren't Modern legal as others have mentioned.
But, the real appeal I have seen, is I feel like the community that embraces Pauper really just loves Magic for the social, chill element of the game. I can't remember any matches I've played in my play group or a shop that haven't just felt like there is nothing riding on it. You're just flinging these common spells and having a good time.
It has a great collector's appeal as well. I know personally, my friends and I have sat for hours sifting through boxes upon boxes, upon boxes of cards building all the meta decks in the format (heck, doubles and triples of them even). It gives meaning to the cards you've stashed that Mom's told you to pawn off.
And you can still brew even though the format is established if you want a funsies deck (common conception is the meta is locked and solved). My first deck was R/G landfall with Makindi Sliderunner, Plated Geopede, Snapping Gnarlid, and Valakut Predator. That was fun, though it only won some .400 to .450 part of the time. I really enjoyed the deck.
Closing remarks, I think the fluctuation in prices will be short lived (though I'm no speculator) and the diehards will stay and contribute to the format, while others will come and quickly go. Maybe the community adds a few more players. But, like all other formats, cards will find their price home and the volatility will end.
Lastly, if you think Pauper is fun... Play some Pauper Commander
I know that Reckless wouldn't be a 3 or 4 of type card, so bringing Boros back to jam a couple in isn't going to be better than current lists. But, just curious as to people's thoughts on the card and if there is brewing room. It's better creature removal than Lightning Bolt, and still almost gets a Bolt in on the player if Boros is in play. Though, I'm assuming to make the card worth it, you'd have to run 4 Boros... Not really 100% positive what the list would have to look like or if you'd just go all in strategy and play those with Blasphemous Act and even change one of the four drops to Spitemare MB as well.
For someone who ran Boros for roughly 2 years, I can say I've been happy after switching him out and finally embracing the Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Eternal Scourge lists.
I guess the biggest drawback of the card though is finding a creature on our end to target when we don't have a Boros in play :/ .
I experimented with a Young Pyromancer, heavy instant/sorcery build in the past with Skred. Makes me curious as to how well it would function with more tokens out there. You could run something like Hangarback Walker too to negate some of the board state disadvantage of roasting Pyro tokens. Turn 3 Hangarback on 2 with Mind Stone in play still allows a four drop bomb. Could also block a threat with a token and post combat deal 2 more to 3 toughness creatures. Just thinking out loud.
Yeah, I myself love Pauper and the guys in my group have a deck each. My son and I play a lot more than they do though, because they feel like with Modern decks set aside and the focus on cheap formats, their decks are not paying out the value put in. I see it both ways, but I do also know how easy it is to reel people in with a real budget option like Pauper. I think your point is spot on there. Just have to convince the rest of the guys that giving up an hour of the night or so to allow someone new in, explain basics and stuff is worth our time. Because, in the long run, we should be able to rope some in here or there.
I'm going to try working my FnM's around me when I get a chance once a month or so. Hopefully we can find one or two that fit our group play style, and mesh with our current personalities.
We had a few of the type you speak of when we first started with "casual" (our first, "format"). Then our mentor turned us onto Modern.