So I can say stuff, Rod. What do you want me to say? I spend a lot of time observing and check this in either the morning or evening when I have time and the ability to. I chime in with my thoughts on the way I see things. I can give you a long run-down if it makes you feel better? Truth be told, at this point the game has reached a point where a lot goes over my head so by the time I think of angles of approach in my time away considering what we know... or at least THINK we know, I come in and chime in on the parts I want. Since my certainty on Day 1 of D_V/Nobue I have followed along and tried to keep pace. As a first game, playing in a game with so many abilities and zero facts has been really daunting.
So from my angle... There's a random ability causing basically all the players to go "I have an ability that targets X" but that has proven to be near useless between mirrors and random target swapping. People might as well spend Night going. "I target whoever you say I target cause I don't really get a say." Take that a step further... We have people claiming Role cop positions and no one really refuting them in any capacity... nobody claiming to be the only role cop or anything to really work with. When the powers have been called most people seem content to just take them as they are placed in front of us. SO sure, let's say that the right choices have been made.... Neat? How would we know? We're dealing with Day 1 random guess-peculation.
Let's add another step to me in particular. Vanilla beamed before I ever acted and had the chance to learn anything for myself beyond what people say? And then I can just watch behavior. SO sure. Let's start there.
Shadow: Objective from Day 1 and consistent over every day thus far. He regularly comes up with questions that put people into a spot of giving us things to work with? Feels town related as Scum can sit back and let others do work, he hasn't.
Tom: Analyzes and gives feedback with an open and healthy suspicion. If he's scum, my first game with him is showing a level of charisma that makes his posts feel believable so I have given credence to his opinions and followed up on them.
D_V: Since Day 1 has felt volatile and aggressive. I believe it was recently even pointed out how even when he is just answering things or answering questions he treats people like they are stupid. Could be a personality quirk that I disagree with, but it also felt very early on like a defensiveness of a scum fingered early. So instead? It seems he's claimed role cop and people believe him. Meaning that my distaste means naught and I have to trust the other people in game who still have night powers and some form of information gathering who trust him.
You, Rodemy: Let's cover you... You seem as frustrated as I am. So I watch you rail against the walls, jump on every wagon, then back pedal and rail more and go right back on what you've done.
Az: Didn't originally suspect him of anything but being a survivor Neutral. I wanted that dead early when there was lots of fodder and time, but people disagreed... and now I'm not as sure he's the neutral in the game. Now there's a lot of things that could fuel that... like a different neutral could be just a different kind of survivor... or Az lied about his role and could only soul-steal once and he needed to find a way to steal someone's soul and survive to some arbitrary point and win or... some other thing like a neutral that reaches a certain point and becomes one side or another... who knows. Either way, wasn't getting enough support for his death, so we're probably stuck with him till the "Surprise upset win" he pulls off on/after Night 5/6.
AE: Perpetually busy and comes in and answers some things but doesn't add much. When he does, the people who have felt like town to me seem to watch him do the same things you do, Rodemy. Jump on a point, push it hard like he figured something out, then backpedal when met with resistance... Also feels scummy: Hence my vote.
Vezo: Always comes in feeling level headed and answering stuff. Early on he didn't even ping my radar and as you pointed out for me: kept forgetting he was in the game. In later stuff, he's proven to ask questions, respond to things in a way that when I'm reading it feels like fact-finding enough that I've taken notice and watch what he says to help gauge what I'm going to do.
Grapefruit: Once abilities came out, he's quickly gone from someone I wasn't sure about and felt was quiet to someone actively impacting the game. Feels like a heavy town play from me.
Then if you want I'll add in how I slip cleared. Apparently I missed some obvious point about Scum chatting as early as Day 1 and planning what to do. I wasn't aware of that so I pointed out early on that I thought some people might be fact-checking to try and figure out who their scum-buddies were. So... I figured why hide it at that point. I expected Scum to pick off an early cleared Townie so I wasn't expecting to last long. Seems keeping the "Sure thing" around for this long has been the other side of that play. I claimed early cause people were suspicious of the Iso event where I got vanilla'd. Figured the best I could be for town at that point is someone who objectively watched what people say, how they say it, and jumped in on wagons I felt had merit, pointing out the little things I believe might be overlooked.
You wanna know why I'm quiet? Because with no flips and limited info... There's not much I can do but sit quietly, jump on the right wagons (as I see them) and watch others interactions for signs of who is working together/how. Aside from being called out to respond, I didn't see a reason to do the full download of my thoughts, considering people were pushing directions I agree with.
So from the read I'm getting... I would try to say that normally I'd agree with you Rodemy about the Jailer role being unable to self target. In this case I think it's a weird kind of power line-up. It also works fine if we consider that it took everyone openly claiming everything for the jailer/mirror combo to even be discovered... otherwise it was a shot in the dark on who to target for "self protection." But even if we take that a step further and say that it is possible and that this perfect storm of nonsense leads to a self-targeting jailer... That just means that he's found a way to protect himself so long as everything else that builds that foundation is in play... including the "mirror" for him to use. Nah... As strange as it all is, it does make sense to me because it's broken so long as the duo/combo exists, but only for that long. I'm curious to hear what others have to say... But I am not sure I believe that we are down to only one scum. Seems unlikely we were that efficient in a no flip scenario, and Iso's flavor of "Not by a long shot" seems to me to think that there's at least 2... maybe more?
So... The more I read back through, the more I start to wonder about Tom... Az as a Neutral is probably as everyone says: very meh. And thanks to the census early on, we know there is in fact a Neutral in the game. Now without flips, we don't know if someone else was the Neutral... like just going on a hypothesis and not really backed by too much fact... as there's almost NONE in this game so far... What if Az and Tom are actually Scum together? Or like one of those Neutral Scum roles that actually wants the Scum to win?
Could be 3 AM paranoid brain talk... but in every instance where people get gung-ho about Lynching Az, it's Tom to come forward and consistently talk about his "distant iceberg"ness... and then blow it off course. There are roles that are Neutral and still scum allied... right? I've seen them in other versions... But that actually feels more like we should be role-copping people like Tom and Shadow... who a fair few of us have in our Town aligned roles... but then again, that begs the possibility we even trust the role cops as claimed... Iunno... Rambling now so gonna stop... but the link between Az and Tom is mostly the thing I wanted to point out.
So much to read... So much that just feels confusing. Really annoyed my first online attempt at a Mafia game turned into a no-flip because it's really left me floundering and just feeling more like a spectator than a player. The one thing I've been meaning to add is towards Tom: The original reason I claimed was because I had expected to die night one to Scum cause of my "derpclear" and openly positioning myself on the side of Town early on. I had made the game decision that if I survived Night 1, I was going to claim and then explain the whole vanilla-izing post of Iso to clear up the suspicion it brought. Honestly didn't figure it was a big threat at that point and by night 2, I figured if I was targeted it'd actually be a boon for Town because letting Scum focus kill a vanilla instead of a powered role seemed like the smarter play to me.
That said... This lack of flips... Care level is low as suspicions don't get confirmed and it is the same as it was Day 1 with allegiances and alignments still just a flitting pile of 'WTF' moments that get us jumping at shadows with next to zero evidence to truly make a move on or capitalize on. It makes Scum hunting ridiculous and not even tedious so much as randomly stabbing in the dark and hoping. That said, I'm still about the biggest Wagon I see... so I'm hoping someone else does this before Az hammers, but I'd like to move into Night now and hope that this opens the door into SOME kind of information.
Whether it's just that everyone else is convincing or not... I feel like this is just an all around good option. The more protections I see, the more I realize that several of the protectors are lying (probably) and the sad part is that because most of them are "meh" as D_V put it, it really makes me suspect Shadow cause his is the best of them and almost feels out of place... but I still am kind of seeing the thought processes that is leading people to angle towards AE.
Can you restate your roll please kazin?
^^ Add that quote to previous reply... don't know how I deleted the quote part last time.
Whether it's just that everyone else is convincing or not... I feel like this is just an all around good option. The more protections I see, the more I realize that several of the protectors are lying (probably) and the sad part is that because most of them are "meh" as D_V put it, it really makes me suspect Shadow cause his is the best of them and almost feels out of place... but I still am kind of seeing the thought processes that is leading people to angle towards AE.
Thanks Tom. I'm happy to throw my vote onto this now... double-checked Lynch counts and whatnot... so This should put us to that magical "L-2" range that Kami was kind enough to give us (me mostly) the advice on before the snap lynch so... yeah. Terry? Let's see it. Claim and claim well dood, cause you have actually topped my Scum list with this last bit of play... as someone who has been open about my reasons for wanting to keep Az in a cage or noose since the beginning and even I was bothered by this and the sudden dive on using Az as your excuse...
Yeah... No... I took got sick as hell and missed a couple days and missed the wild end to day two... after reading up, Nope... just going straight to Terry... NOt sure where the L-count is... but... Yeah... I think I saw 3? Soon as I know I'm not going to insta-hammer on accident, I'm just going to throw in with: "My vote is on Terry" but not bold it or call it to Iso till I get the count... and even then, I will probably only wait long enough for info before hammering that...
The first is that we should be finding specifically the Kraken source and taking it out.
The second is that the Kraken being permanent short of lynches/kills may be overpowered, especially combined with what appears to be a targeting randomizer. It is quite possible that the Kraken has a built-in finite duration.
I think I should mention I'm currently using "kraken" and "thing hiding alignment flips" interchangeably; I suppose it's possible they're separate but that seems at least somewhat unlikely.
Fortunately, no matter what, we can assume that the source of the Kraken is scum, so normal scumhunting can work. It's just, effectively, an extended D1.
I remain happy with a D_V lynch but am willing to wait until more people come around on that. Obviously my reasoning wasn't convincing enough in D1 and I don't have more to add, so I'm not going to waste my time.
The final bit of this especially. I'm waiting to see how D_V handles the Day 2 and what things come about from it. I've been trying to hold a more objective read on others, but my read on him hasn't changed in the least as of yet. But with no new evidence to add, it feels moot to push on that button. The Az threat is one that continually becomes more of a threat... and sometimes the problem of the "iceberg" on the horizon is that if you don't correct early, you hit it.... What do they say about icebergs? You only see 10% of them? So Tom's analogy of him being an iceberg is apt in my opinion... He's the kind of role that if it's not dealt with early, it becomes very hard to deal with later... That said, DoTa has been... well... I thought the post was insightful originally, and got me focusing on someone who I hadn't paid a -ton- of attention to... and got me looking, but I could see where others are coming from on the points and how he might have gotten there.
@DoTArchon: Care to give a bit more in depth reads on others?
My night power was the ability to be untargettable by anyone except the one I target. Example: Azrael has the ability to steal a soul at night. I choose him as my "Night target" and as my target, he would be able to steal my soul. But Rodemy (in this example) couldn't also target me with a night kill ability. It was immunity to everyone except the person I target. Further clarification - if someone targetted me and I targetted them they got to choose two targets. So... go back to the example: Az targets me with "Steal Soul." I target him as well. Now he can choose a SECOND target and steal say... Rodemy's soul. Okay? Ability explained?
Moving onto the next bit. The Canon thing from Day one posted by Iso/Moderation: was followed immediately by a PM saying: "You have lost all Night Abilities." The comment about "wanting a surprise for Night kill" was a bluff to try to survive till today. The Swashbuckler role is considered a "Town Duelist."
All of that said: Go back to where I said the things about Az. The fact that I hammered was obnoxious, but not helpful. Yes it was death to him. But he also didn't move over to DBS earlier. Offer ANY usable intel in the day... And is now one step closer to causeing EVERYONE to lose... SO yeah... the thing that I already didn't like as a "Survivor only wins" thing, plus being useless is why I want to lynch him. The Hammering part is like... part 4 of a 4 part reasoning.
Whoops. EBWODP: (Think I did that acronym right) - Subtract the word "The" before the word Yesterday in there. Started a sentence and changed it up in post, missed the word "The" until it went up. Herp derp... .... pssst... lynch the useless guy...
Just gonna start there. Whether scum or neutral: I give no cares. This guy was given a set of instructions yesterday to ride on this ship. No hammer... he hovered on one until the hammer vote was there... I hammered, he didn't do anything. His contribution past defending his neutral claim all the way up to poor Barbosa's demise... So: just wanna say... DBS also... exactly who she claimed. A magical merchant could totally be a one shot doc if you consider that she may have had several abilities including like... some 1-shot magic item that protected someone from death.
Let's step onto the second point. Davey Jones.... I mean... got tons of stories on him... but let's keep this one mainstream. In the Pirates of the Caribbean movies... what does he do? He steals and sales with the Souls of the Dead.. (Stealing Souls) and controls the Kraken. Just flavor wise there it feels like it should be considered...
Also: Told myself if I survived the night I was gonna do this: Hi. I'm Batgut - the town Swashbuckler and loudmouth. Normally able to be kinda immune at night because I get into loud bar fights and can only be targeted by the person who I target. Kinda neat skill, right? Okay... so funny story about that. The yesterday I shot off more than my mouth... a cannon in fact... and haven't got the skill to fight I once did. Put simply: I lost my night actions because of the cannon shot posts from Day 1 that people were pointing out. Now I'm not sure if I was targeted or if it was just story related, but Iso decided I wasn't gonna have those abilities any more.
Now that that's all out of the way... Can we string up this useless dead weight today or what? *Eyes Azrael* Literally don't care if he's neutral or scum... the scurvy devil ain't nuthin but chum and dead weight. Whether he himself is the killer or just aiding him by existing - he certainly isn't welcome on the ship. He does nuthin. He brings nuthin.
So from my angle... There's a random ability causing basically all the players to go "I have an ability that targets X" but that has proven to be near useless between mirrors and random target swapping. People might as well spend Night going. "I target whoever you say I target cause I don't really get a say." Take that a step further... We have people claiming Role cop positions and no one really refuting them in any capacity... nobody claiming to be the only role cop or anything to really work with. When the powers have been called most people seem content to just take them as they are placed in front of us. SO sure, let's say that the right choices have been made.... Neat? How would we know? We're dealing with Day 1 random guess-peculation.
Let's add another step to me in particular. Vanilla beamed before I ever acted and had the chance to learn anything for myself beyond what people say? And then I can just watch behavior. SO sure. Let's start there.
Shadow: Objective from Day 1 and consistent over every day thus far. He regularly comes up with questions that put people into a spot of giving us things to work with? Feels town related as Scum can sit back and let others do work, he hasn't.
Tom: Analyzes and gives feedback with an open and healthy suspicion. If he's scum, my first game with him is showing a level of charisma that makes his posts feel believable so I have given credence to his opinions and followed up on them.
D_V: Since Day 1 has felt volatile and aggressive. I believe it was recently even pointed out how even when he is just answering things or answering questions he treats people like they are stupid. Could be a personality quirk that I disagree with, but it also felt very early on like a defensiveness of a scum fingered early. So instead? It seems he's claimed role cop and people believe him. Meaning that my distaste means naught and I have to trust the other people in game who still have night powers and some form of information gathering who trust him.
You, Rodemy: Let's cover you... You seem as frustrated as I am. So I watch you rail against the walls, jump on every wagon, then back pedal and rail more and go right back on what you've done.
Az: Didn't originally suspect him of anything but being a survivor Neutral. I wanted that dead early when there was lots of fodder and time, but people disagreed... and now I'm not as sure he's the neutral in the game. Now there's a lot of things that could fuel that... like a different neutral could be just a different kind of survivor... or Az lied about his role and could only soul-steal once and he needed to find a way to steal someone's soul and survive to some arbitrary point and win or... some other thing like a neutral that reaches a certain point and becomes one side or another... who knows. Either way, wasn't getting enough support for his death, so we're probably stuck with him till the "Surprise upset win" he pulls off on/after Night 5/6.
AE: Perpetually busy and comes in and answers some things but doesn't add much. When he does, the people who have felt like town to me seem to watch him do the same things you do, Rodemy. Jump on a point, push it hard like he figured something out, then backpedal when met with resistance... Also feels scummy: Hence my vote.
Vezo: Always comes in feeling level headed and answering stuff. Early on he didn't even ping my radar and as you pointed out for me: kept forgetting he was in the game. In later stuff, he's proven to ask questions, respond to things in a way that when I'm reading it feels like fact-finding enough that I've taken notice and watch what he says to help gauge what I'm going to do.
Grapefruit: Once abilities came out, he's quickly gone from someone I wasn't sure about and felt was quiet to someone actively impacting the game. Feels like a heavy town play from me.
Then if you want I'll add in how I slip cleared. Apparently I missed some obvious point about Scum chatting as early as Day 1 and planning what to do. I wasn't aware of that so I pointed out early on that I thought some people might be fact-checking to try and figure out who their scum-buddies were. So... I figured why hide it at that point. I expected Scum to pick off an early cleared Townie so I wasn't expecting to last long. Seems keeping the "Sure thing" around for this long has been the other side of that play. I claimed early cause people were suspicious of the Iso event where I got vanilla'd. Figured the best I could be for town at that point is someone who objectively watched what people say, how they say it, and jumped in on wagons I felt had merit, pointing out the little things I believe might be overlooked.
You wanna know why I'm quiet? Because with no flips and limited info... There's not much I can do but sit quietly, jump on the right wagons (as I see them) and watch others interactions for signs of who is working together/how. Aside from being called out to respond, I didn't see a reason to do the full download of my thoughts, considering people were pushing directions I agree with.
Vote ArchmageEternal
Could be 3 AM paranoid brain talk... but in every instance where people get gung-ho about Lynching Az, it's Tom to come forward and consistently talk about his "distant iceberg"ness... and then blow it off course. There are roles that are Neutral and still scum allied... right? I've seen them in other versions... But that actually feels more like we should be role-copping people like Tom and Shadow... who a fair few of us have in our Town aligned roles... but then again, that begs the possibility we even trust the role cops as claimed... Iunno... Rambling now so gonna stop... but the link between Az and Tom is mostly the thing I wanted to point out.
That said... This lack of flips... Care level is low as suspicions don't get confirmed and it is the same as it was Day 1 with allegiances and alignments still just a flitting pile of 'WTF' moments that get us jumping at shadows with next to zero evidence to truly make a move on or capitalize on. It makes Scum hunting ridiculous and not even tedious so much as randomly stabbing in the dark and hoping. That said, I'm still about the biggest Wagon I see... so I'm hoping someone else does this before Az hammers, but I'd like to move into Night now and hope that this opens the door into SOME kind of information.
Unvote
Vote: TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
^^ Add that quote to previous reply... don't know how I deleted the quote part last time.
Vote ArchmageEternal
Whether it's just that everyone else is convincing or not... I feel like this is just an all around good option. The more protections I see, the more I realize that several of the protectors are lying (probably) and the sad part is that because most of them are "meh" as D_V put it, it really makes me suspect Shadow cause his is the best of them and almost feels out of place... but I still am kind of seeing the thought processes that is leading people to angle towards AE.
Vote: TheRealStinkyJoeTerry
Yeah... No... I took got sick as hell and missed a couple days and missed the wild end to day two... after reading up, Nope... just going straight to Terry... NOt sure where the L-count is... but... Yeah... I think I saw 3? Soon as I know I'm not going to insta-hammer on accident, I'm just going to throw in with: "My vote is on Terry" but not bold it or call it to Iso till I get the count... and even then, I will probably only wait long enough for info before hammering that...
The final bit of this especially. I'm waiting to see how D_V handles the Day 2 and what things come about from it. I've been trying to hold a more objective read on others, but my read on him hasn't changed in the least as of yet. But with no new evidence to add, it feels moot to push on that button. The Az threat is one that continually becomes more of a threat... and sometimes the problem of the "iceberg" on the horizon is that if you don't correct early, you hit it.... What do they say about icebergs? You only see 10% of them? So Tom's analogy of him being an iceberg is apt in my opinion... He's the kind of role that if it's not dealt with early, it becomes very hard to deal with later... That said, DoTa has been... well... I thought the post was insightful originally, and got me focusing on someone who I hadn't paid a -ton- of attention to... and got me looking, but I could see where others are coming from on the points and how he might have gotten there.
@DoTArchon: Care to give a bit more in depth reads on others?
My night power was the ability to be untargettable by anyone except the one I target. Example: Azrael has the ability to steal a soul at night. I choose him as my "Night target" and as my target, he would be able to steal my soul. But Rodemy (in this example) couldn't also target me with a night kill ability. It was immunity to everyone except the person I target. Further clarification - if someone targetted me and I targetted them they got to choose two targets. So... go back to the example: Az targets me with "Steal Soul." I target him as well. Now he can choose a SECOND target and steal say... Rodemy's soul. Okay? Ability explained?
Moving onto the next bit. The Canon thing from Day one posted by Iso/Moderation: was followed immediately by a PM saying: "You have lost all Night Abilities." The comment about "wanting a surprise for Night kill" was a bluff to try to survive till today. The Swashbuckler role is considered a "Town Duelist."
All of that said: Go back to where I said the things about Az. The fact that I hammered was obnoxious, but not helpful. Yes it was death to him. But he also didn't move over to DBS earlier. Offer ANY usable intel in the day... And is now one step closer to causeing EVERYONE to lose... SO yeah... the thing that I already didn't like as a "Survivor only wins" thing, plus being useless is why I want to lynch him. The Hammering part is like... part 4 of a 4 part reasoning.
Just gonna start there. Whether scum or neutral: I give no cares. This guy was given a set of instructions yesterday to ride on this ship. No hammer... he hovered on one until the hammer vote was there... I hammered, he didn't do anything. His contribution past defending his neutral claim all the way up to poor Barbosa's demise... So: just wanna say... DBS also... exactly who she claimed. A magical merchant could totally be a one shot doc if you consider that she may have had several abilities including like... some 1-shot magic item that protected someone from death.
Let's step onto the second point. Davey Jones.... I mean... got tons of stories on him... but let's keep this one mainstream. In the Pirates of the Caribbean movies... what does he do? He steals and sales with the Souls of the Dead.. (Stealing Souls) and controls the Kraken. Just flavor wise there it feels like it should be considered...
Also: Told myself if I survived the night I was gonna do this: Hi. I'm Batgut - the town Swashbuckler and loudmouth. Normally able to be kinda immune at night because I get into loud bar fights and can only be targeted by the person who I target. Kinda neat skill, right? Okay... so funny story about that. The yesterday I shot off more than my mouth... a cannon in fact... and haven't got the skill to fight I once did. Put simply: I lost my night actions because of the cannon shot posts from Day 1 that people were pointing out. Now I'm not sure if I was targeted or if it was just story related, but Iso decided I wasn't gonna have those abilities any more.
Now that that's all out of the way... Can we string up this useless dead weight today or what? *Eyes Azrael* Literally don't care if he's neutral or scum... the scurvy devil ain't nuthin but chum and dead weight. Whether he himself is the killer or just aiding him by existing - he certainly isn't welcome on the ship. He does nuthin. He brings nuthin.