Garruk 4 is card advantage, but what deck would play it? Control has too low of a creature count, doesn't play green most of the time, and it costs about as much as a finisher. Ramp wouldn't have a high enough creature count. Aggro wouldn't play it because it doesn't play 6 mana cards. Combo rarely has many creatures either and is almost never green. I really don't see it outside of casual or a deck built around it. (which likely wouldn't be top teir) That doesn't mean it should be hated or anything, but it is highly unlikely to see any serious tournament play.
Naya and Zegana builds could all use this guy to fairly great effect, but he's no 4-of for sure, Probably 1-2 max.
My personal gripe with him though is that he isn't good enough on his own to pull you out a next turn loss. This aspect is extremely important to consider when evaluating planeswalkers. Garruk PH gives you a blocker or potentially a ton of cards. Liliana of the Veil kills something. Tamiyo taps something down. Jace Architect makes the next attack hurt less, etc. Garruk 4.0 doesn't do anything unless you already have a creature to play.
He picks you up when you're down but not dead, sure, but is that good enough? Not sure until we see Theros, but my feeling is that unless the format grinds to a hault, he's not going to be good enough. 6 mana should get you a win condition. Garruk can be one, but you do need to keep him around for several turns to really capitalize on it.
Witch engine is superb for a core set, I would've loved that first starting out. As-is, it's cute, but not standard material. The Newt will be fantastic in limited, though.
Yeah, it's a tired statement, but it's actually pretty relevant in this case. Comparing to Scepter it's more fragile, cmc requires much more up front investment, and most of the time, more to cast.
At 2U, and maybe as a 1/3, it'd be standard playable...maybe. As-is, it's a kitchen table card with something for Johnnies to get working on, but not much else.
you don't have to cast it straight away so you can play your land before casting it.
Yeah agreed, looking at it again there is not much incentive to playing a land first since the terms of the card allow you play whatever was exiled during the turn. This way you never really "miss" with Chandra.
The only exception to this rule would be the turn you need to play a land to cast her, or if you anticipate you will need a color of mana that you don't think the flipped land could provide. There's some subtle math involved, but 90% of the time you're going to want to wait on playing a land if you intend to use her 0.
Isn't the right play merely to activate that ability before you play a land?
The ability is less good than "Draw a card," but it's much better than I would have expected out of a mono-red planeswalker. You're drawing an extra card a turn if Chandra flips cards that you want to use. At that point, my question is whether or not a competitive deck could be constructed in a way that would minimize the "Flip a situationally good card in the wrong situation and rage-out" problem I could see Chandra having.
There's definitely an argument for waiting on your land drop in hoping you reveal a land, but more often than not it seems better to play your land first, so that you'll have more mana to cast whatever it is you reveal. Depends on it you're flooded or not.
She's got some interesting synergy with Domri though... if you whiff with Domri, you know what works best with Chandra's ability.
I think in a low to mid curve her 0 ability might be pretty cool, but you'd really need to design the deck around her in order to get the desired synergy going. You'll rarely have motivation to use the 0 the turn she comes into play unless it's later into the game.
+1 is decent but as we've seen before, the 1 damage thing isn't too great. I suppose getting your Chandra's Phoenix's back is still nice.
Ultimate is good, but seems like more often than not might not be that exciting with the current card pool. Who knows, though, could be something interesting on horizon that makes it worthwhile. A mini-Cruel Ultimatum perhaps?
All in all though, jury is still out in my mind. I'm about as excited for her as I am for the new Garruk. Potential, but seems narrow.
What it fails at as a spike card, it wins at as a johnny card, and oozes with flavor to boot.
I think it's actually pretty cool, but it is a do-nothing engine card on it's own in a format filled with angry decks that really don't mind at all if you lose some life and draw cards. We'll need to see some pretty impressive token generators in order for it to be fully justified, especially at it's restrictive cost, and particularly post-rotation.
For the time being though, I might try it out with a more controllish Sorin/Lingering Souls/Assemble the Legion type thing. I doubt I'd want to play this card before turn 5 or so anyway, the BBB isn't too bad when you put it in context with the right deck.
Well, if you consider him as a 1 of just a few decks, I'd agree with you. But you are making it sound like he is totally unplayable. On the other hand, as a 1 of in main decks with extras in sideboard for control matches (and yes in decks with 30 creatures, 25 lands, 3 Domri, 1 Garruk, 1 open slot), he will play an important role in those matches.
As a 1-of, sure, not bad, but Garruk PH is still a more desirable walker in a build like that. If you're playing a bunch of creatures, you can draw of him consistently and get more than just creatures. I can't count how many Jund games I've won off of drawing 5 from Thragtusk or just amassing a ton of 3/3's and flooding the board until they cave. I'm not sure Garruk 4.0 can provide that sort of amazing recovery potential.
Why is 3-4 presumptuous? Based on simple odds with a deck of 50% creatures that is exactly what you would draw, and Domri isn't 100% better. Garruk will draw you more creatures, and the 5 loyalty he gets after hitting play is enough to keep him alive for at least 2 activations most of the time, meaning he should draw you 5 cards on his own. 6 mana for 5 cards is great, especially since you still have a PW. Domri protects himself better, but if I get to 6 mana, I'd rather just draw lots of cards.
If you're playing 30 creatures in your deck, I promise you that playing a 4GG planeswalker is not going to be what determines whether you win the match. Even Big Naya, which is probably this card's best pairing for the moment, plays ~28 creatures or so, and maxes on Domri because he's appropriate for the curve and nets you a card every other turn or so, plus can defend himself, plus be used as a win condition with Reckoner.
Say they wrath, you're in topdeck mode except for Domri and Garruk 4.0 in hand, with 6 mana.
You have either Garruk 4.0 or Domri to play. Sure, Garruk seems a lot better - You can recover quite quickly in terms of card advantage. But, with Domri, you could be drawing into a Reckoner and playing it the same turn - AND recover in turns of card advantage - AND have a win condition potentially on the next turn if they play a creature.
I'm really quite open to the idea of Garruk being a competitively playable 'walker, but right now I don't think he has enough synergy with the reality of competitive magic in Standard to be a particularly good choice. 6 mana is a lot to invest in a planeswalker in a midrange strategy that doesn't really do anything on it's own to affect the board state. You'd almost always rather play a Hellkite, Thragtusk, or the like.
One could argue Domri doesn't ensure anything either (if you have no creatures or he whiffs the draw), but at least with Domri you have a chance at controlling creatures on the field on top of the latent potential for extra cards.
Guess we'll see. Hats off if you can find a way to make Garruk 4.0 work. I have no argument that he's awesome when you're ahead, but I'm going to wait until we've got more cards (m14/theros) for consideration to make a final judgement. He feels like a win-more strategy.
Yeah it's the +1 that really makes him pretty remarkable; the -3 can surely be devasting, but honestly, if you're playing creatures bigger than 6, seems like a rather backwards way of getting them out, better hope you have a plan B. The only really big benefit is that they can't counter the -3 ability'd creature.
We'll have to see what the future brings us as far enter the battlefield creature triggers, as this will determine just how powerful drawing creatures-only will be with a 4GG control-type planeswalker. As-is I think his power level is a little dubious unless you're already winning the game.
In a top deck situation, you get to draw 3-4 cards per turn (including the draw step). Pretty sure you'll be ok in top deck mode with Garruk.
I think 3-4 is pretty presumptuous even with the draw step included, you'd be playing Domri instead if you played that many creatures. On top of that, you're standing with your crank in the breeze if you don't have any creatures in play and no cards in hand. Sure, you will draw a card or two (or 3 sometimes), but it's a little win-more. At six mana I'd rather play Zegana. When the chips are up, you will win with Garruk 4.0. When the chips are down, you're probably paying 4GG for a Divination that may or may not give you more value down the road. We'll see though, he's not bad by any stretch, just a little hazy in terms of value without Theros around, and the current meta in being what it is. Might be fun in Jund.
I like him, but he doesn't protect himself inherently, and in a topdeck situation he's not going to affect the boardstate at all. He's pretty good, perhaps a little less good than Garruk PH though.
Naya and Zegana builds could all use this guy to fairly great effect, but he's no 4-of for sure, Probably 1-2 max.
My personal gripe with him though is that he isn't good enough on his own to pull you out a next turn loss. This aspect is extremely important to consider when evaluating planeswalkers. Garruk PH gives you a blocker or potentially a ton of cards. Liliana of the Veil kills something. Tamiyo taps something down. Jace Architect makes the next attack hurt less, etc. Garruk 4.0 doesn't do anything unless you already have a creature to play.
He picks you up when you're down but not dead, sure, but is that good enough? Not sure until we see Theros, but my feeling is that unless the format grinds to a hault, he's not going to be good enough. 6 mana should get you a win condition. Garruk can be one, but you do need to keep him around for several turns to really capitalize on it.
Sure, design is a little boring, but IDK, at least it doesn't hose the opp like VoR does while still having an interesting enough effect.
Yeah that was one of my first thoughts too... it's definitely no accident that it curves perfectly from newt to cauldron to prophecy to witch.
Yeah, it's a tired statement, but it's actually pretty relevant in this case. Comparing to Scepter it's more fragile, cmc requires much more up front investment, and most of the time, more to cast.
At 2U, and maybe as a 1/3, it'd be standard playable...maybe. As-is, it's a kitchen table card with something for Johnnies to get working on, but not much else.
Yeah agreed, looking at it again there is not much incentive to playing a land first since the terms of the card allow you play whatever was exiled during the turn. This way you never really "miss" with Chandra.
The only exception to this rule would be the turn you need to play a land to cast her, or if you anticipate you will need a color of mana that you don't think the flipped land could provide. There's some subtle math involved, but 90% of the time you're going to want to wait on playing a land if you intend to use her 0.
There's definitely an argument for waiting on your land drop in hoping you reveal a land, but more often than not it seems better to play your land first, so that you'll have more mana to cast whatever it is you reveal. Depends on it you're flooded or not.
She's got some interesting synergy with Domri though... if you whiff with Domri, you know what works best with Chandra's ability.
+1 is decent but as we've seen before, the 1 damage thing isn't too great. I suppose getting your Chandra's Phoenix's back is still nice.
Ultimate is good, but seems like more often than not might not be that exciting with the current card pool. Who knows, though, could be something interesting on horizon that makes it worthwhile. A mini-Cruel Ultimatum perhaps?
All in all though, jury is still out in my mind. I'm about as excited for her as I am for the new Garruk. Potential, but seems narrow.
I think it's actually pretty cool, but it is a do-nothing engine card on it's own in a format filled with angry decks that really don't mind at all if you lose some life and draw cards. We'll need to see some pretty impressive token generators in order for it to be fully justified, especially at it's restrictive cost, and particularly post-rotation.
For the time being though, I might try it out with a more controllish Sorin/Lingering Souls/Assemble the Legion type thing. I doubt I'd want to play this card before turn 5 or so anyway, the BBB isn't too bad when you put it in context with the right deck.
As a 1-of, sure, not bad, but Garruk PH is still a more desirable walker in a build like that. If you're playing a bunch of creatures, you can draw of him consistently and get more than just creatures. I can't count how many Jund games I've won off of drawing 5 from Thragtusk or just amassing a ton of 3/3's and flooding the board until they cave. I'm not sure Garruk 4.0 can provide that sort of amazing recovery potential.
If you're playing 30 creatures in your deck, I promise you that playing a 4GG planeswalker is not going to be what determines whether you win the match. Even Big Naya, which is probably this card's best pairing for the moment, plays ~28 creatures or so, and maxes on Domri because he's appropriate for the curve and nets you a card every other turn or so, plus can defend himself, plus be used as a win condition with Reckoner.
Say they wrath, you're in topdeck mode except for Domri and Garruk 4.0 in hand, with 6 mana.
You have either Garruk 4.0 or Domri to play. Sure, Garruk seems a lot better - You can recover quite quickly in terms of card advantage. But, with Domri, you could be drawing into a Reckoner and playing it the same turn - AND recover in turns of card advantage - AND have a win condition potentially on the next turn if they play a creature.
I'm really quite open to the idea of Garruk being a competitively playable 'walker, but right now I don't think he has enough synergy with the reality of competitive magic in Standard to be a particularly good choice. 6 mana is a lot to invest in a planeswalker in a midrange strategy that doesn't really do anything on it's own to affect the board state. You'd almost always rather play a Hellkite, Thragtusk, or the like.
One could argue Domri doesn't ensure anything either (if you have no creatures or he whiffs the draw), but at least with Domri you have a chance at controlling creatures on the field on top of the latent potential for extra cards.
Guess we'll see. Hats off if you can find a way to make Garruk 4.0 work. I have no argument that he's awesome when you're ahead, but I'm going to wait until we've got more cards (m14/theros) for consideration to make a final judgement. He feels like a win-more strategy.
We'll have to see what the future brings us as far enter the battlefield creature triggers, as this will determine just how powerful drawing creatures-only will be with a 4GG control-type planeswalker. As-is I think his power level is a little dubious unless you're already winning the game.
I think 3-4 is pretty presumptuous even with the draw step included, you'd be playing Domri instead if you played that many creatures. On top of that, you're standing with your crank in the breeze if you don't have any creatures in play and no cards in hand. Sure, you will draw a card or two (or 3 sometimes), but it's a little win-more. At six mana I'd rather play Zegana. When the chips are up, you will win with Garruk 4.0. When the chips are down, you're probably paying 4GG for a Divination that may or may not give you more value down the road. We'll see though, he's not bad by any stretch, just a little hazy in terms of value without Theros around, and the current meta in being what it is. Might be fun in Jund.