I'm not sure we can play UW Miracles. I think Jace can't reliably make Miracles work in Modern alone. We don't have Brainstorm and Top. If I were to try a Miracles in Modern I'd probably try a Bant build, with some copies of Nissa, Steward of Elements to try to help setup the Miracles. They do sinergize really well together too. Nissa can scry away unwanted cards that Jace puts on top of our library. Jace can setup lands or creatures for Nissa's 0 ability too. But I don't know if it's worth the effort.
The problem IMO is that the Miracles cards are brokenly efficient if Miracle triggers, but are super clunky and ineffective if they don't. Terminus is totally OP for W, but for 4WW it's just really slow in a format where Verdict costs 1UWW and it's still too slow sometimes. Entreat the Angels is really bad if we can't trigger its Miracles. And since we don't have other ways to reliably setup the Miracle's Triggers, we would be relying too much on Jace.
In the end, we would probably be trying to jam in a Jace to maybe start setting up one Miracles card for the fifth turn. If we just don't draw a copy of him, we're probably dead with a bunch of clunky cards in our hands. If Jace doesn't resolve, we're probably dead too. If resolves, we just spent our turn 4 to set up a wrath for W on turn 5 leaving 4 mana open, and Jace will likely die on the process (to a creature attack or Bolt). Doesn't seem much better than just casting a Verdict turn 4, and than play Jace on turn 5 facing an empty board.
IMO Miracles work(ed) in Legacy because they have Brainstorm and had Top. They also have FoW to protect themselves when they tap out for Jace on turn 4. We don't have these things, so I'm very skeptical about a Miracles deck in Modern.
I don't see Tron gone. IMO whenever Blue Controls and Midranges are powerful, Tron will likely be a relevant force. Unless UW with our LD package proves to be the best U-Control based deck to use Jace, and it just outshines all the other U-Controls and Midranges that are going to rise with the unbannings, I think Tron will probably be still a thing on the format.
If Jeskai is the most popular Control and Jund the most popular Midrange, for example, Tron will likely rise with them IMO, because I don't believe Jace or BBE make much difference on their matches vs Tron. Jeskai or Jund will still probably lose hard to Tron, unless they become powerful enough that they can afford to play main deck land hate or spend half of their sideboards to fight Tron. I don't see it happening, but it's a possibility.
I'd say if there'll be a "best" Control in the format, this deck will probably be Jeskai, and the same goes for Jund being the best Midrange. Burns will probably be relevant again for fighting walkers on the Control Mirrors, or to try to beat the fast Aggros that'll just try to go under Jace. If I'm right, Jeskai/Jund probably beat the Aggros, the Aggros beat Tron and Tron beats Jeskai/Jund.
However, if UW proves to be the best U-Control in the format, and it keeps the land hate package, than I agree that Tron is probably gonna be kicked away from the format.
Important to mention: I don't believe there is gonna be one Tier 0~1 U-Control or Midrange in Modern now. I believe there'll probably be a lot of good Jace based decks and some BBE based Midranges. Sultai, Esper, Temur, Naya... who knows what could see play now?
Well...for now I'm probably completing my UW and hold on to my Jeskai stuff since I believe Jeskai is probably gonna be the best combination for U Control in Modern, since it was already really good and the Burn spells are probably gonna be required for fighting opposing JTMS.
I believe it all comes down to how Jeskai can fight Big Mana decks. I don't believe JTMS improves Jeskai's match up vs Tron or Valakut. So... IMO Jeskai will still be prayed on by Tron. That said, if I am right, I'd say there will still be room for both UW and Jeskai. UW being the best Control for fighting Big Mana, and Jeskai should be better against Aggros and Midranges.
I'll just finish my UW and play my Jaceless version for a while until the hype is gone and JTMS is reprinted.
I don't believe that we will be able to play Miracles just because of Jace. Without Brainstorm and/or Top, I think it would be too hard to rely on Miracles spells. They printed that Brainstorm Merfolk on Rivals of Ixalan, but he costs the same as Jace and allows only one set up.
Well...for now I'm probably completing my UW and hold on to my Jeskai stuff since I believe Jeskai is probably gonna be the best combination for U Control in Modern, since it was already really good and the Burn spells are probably gonna be required for fighting opposing JTMS.
I believe it all comes down to how Jeskai can fight Big Mana decks. I don't believe JTMS improves Jeskai's match up vs Tron or Valakut. So... IMO Jeskai will still be prayed on by Tron. That said, if I am right, I'd say there will still be room for both UW and Jeskai. UW being the best Control for fighting Big Mana, and Jeskai should be better against Aggros and Midranges.
I'll just finish my UW and play my Jaceless version for a while until the hype is gone and JTMS is reprinted.
I don't believe that we will be able to play Miracles just because of Jace. Without Brainstorm and/or Top, I think it would be too hard to rely on Miracles spells. They printed that Brainstorm Merfolk on Rivals of Ixalan, but he costs the same as Jace and allows only one activation.
This was a kick in my left nut. I was just selling my Jeskai stuff to try to go for UW and now I think Jeskai will probably be the "go-to" U Control strategy in Modern since Bolts are likely gonna be required for fighting opposing JTMS.
Now I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. Do I spend a lot of money on one or two JTMS? What if they ban it again? That doesn't seem unlikely. Jace seems to have power enough to dominate the format.
Not to mention the changes that our deck is probably facing from now on. I would probably have to sell some of my Jeskai stuff to acquire one or two Jaces and now I don't even know if I won't need these stuff. I don't mind playing a Tier 2 or Tier 3 deck. But I really don't want to just play something strictly worse than something else for lack of money.
Sure. That's the reason I opted for 3rd Snap + Snare on the 2 Walls slots. The Snare also makes my Snapcasters better, they both are reasonable against Aggros as Walls would be, and they're probably improving my match-up against the U-Controls and the Big Mana decks. Snare is probably better than Wall vs Burn. Trying to cover all bases.
My only concern is how often I'll need to play Ambush Viper. Even adding the Snare, I'm afraid I might not have enough good spells to consistently fuel 3 Snappys and end up being forced to just play Ambush Viper more oftenly than I'd wish.
I'm ok with having to do that sometimes against some fast Aggros or to impose clocks against some opponents that I'll want to beat fastly, but if that happens too oftenly, I'd rather play something else than 3rd Snappy.
I thought about a main deck Clique, but I feel it much less powerful without the Burn spells, Quellers and the full set of Snapcasters. I like it in the sideboard. Maybe should move it to the main deck. Not sure. But I feel like it belongs better on the sideboard.
Secure the Wastes could be really good. Don't know what I could cut for it though.
Sure. Wall is very good against UR decks that try to beat us by Burn + Snapcaster on our end step. However I think Spell Snare and my own Snapcaster are probably even better. Not sure on the Snap vs Wall debate though. Maybe Wall is better than Snap on this match.
A lot of 5-0 lists, or lists people bring to the pro tour, are meta gamed heavily. If you're not seeing a lot of decks where wrath is good, or expect them to decline, then you don't have to play as many. But if you're looking for broad guidelines, it makes a lot of sense.
That's the main reason I'm inclined to cut the Walls and keep 3 sweepers main deck (and a 4th on the sideboard). There aren't that many Aggro decks on my field. I'm much more concerned about the U-Controls. There are a bunch of Jeskais, Blue Moons, UW Controls and some GDS, along with a lot of Big Mana Decks, that should be good match-ups. I might miss the Walls vs Burn and the few Aggros, but I also think that Snare and Snappy kind of cover that matches decently.
That's an interesting advice. I think I might cut the Reinforcements for a Condemn. It's probably less impactful in the Burn match-up, but it's probably better on more occasions. What about Sunlance? Seems also good against Aggro fast decks, and is probably better than Condemn or Alliance against Humans, Bobs, Pyromancers, Hierarchs, etc.
I dislike Halo main deck. It's really awkard in a good amount of matches and it doesn't protect our walkers. I'd much rather play Walls instead, or even more removal like Blessed Alliance or Condemn.
I'm changing my Jeskai Control IRL into UW Control. I think it's better positioned on my field, because there are a lot of Big Mana decks, some U-Controls, some DS and not much Aggros (there are some Burns, though). There a bunch of Blood Moons as well. So... I'm planning to play on something similar to this:
I made little tweaks to my MTGO deck for playing IRL. On MTGO I play 2 Wall of Omens and I cut them for 1 Snare and 1 Snapcaster to try to improve my match-up against the U-Controls that are really present on my field. The 3rd Snapcaster might improve my match against the Big Mana decks as well, and might be useful against the few Aggros, I supose.
Have been thinking of adding a 2nd Knot. Maybe on the Snapcaster or the Mana Leak spot. Not sure if I'll be able to use the 3rd Snappy well, since on UW I don't have much cheap and good spells. Anyways... those are my reasons to play this list.
I also have been thinking of adding an EE to my sideboard, but I'm not sure if it should come in, and on what spot. Any thoughts or advices?
One field of ruin doesn't seem impactful enough, you definitely want to go 3 or 4 like what Burkhart did with his grixis build, and he upped the land count from 22 to 25. I found the singleton light house pretty strong though.
I like Shaun Mclaren's version that played 4 Tec Edges, 4 Leaks and 2 Ajani Vengeants. He really commited to the mana denial plan.
I think Lighthouse is bad when you're on the Azcanta plan. Because if you have both, Azcanta is just better, and they cost the same to activate. But if you're not playing Azcanta, I think Lighthouse is really good.
Are Abzan players returning to Bob? It's been a loooooong time since the last time I saw an Abzan deck playing Bob... well... if they do play Bob, it's probably bad for us. But when I played this deck, I felt slightly favored. They didn't play any Bobs though. I think Grim Flayers took Bob's place on those decks by the last times I played them. I have been seeing them a lot on Jund though.
Against GDS I always feel favored. I usually have so many answers, card advantage and powerful top decks that they have a real hard time beating me. Unless they have a God Hand or 3+ discard spells, I'm probably winning the majority of the games against them. I'm probably 65/35 against them, or something close to that.
Yea, field is basically a fetch land, but it doesn't help you get under blood moon, or fix for a turn 3 Gideon. Sometimes it's too slow to effectively fix for a turn 4 Verdict as well because you often have to react on turn 3.
I also really like Prairie Stream right now, I think my mananase is going to look like this:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Prairie Stream
1 Glacial Fortress
4 Field of Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
5 Island
3 Plains
Most people don't like having 2 Fountain, but I think that might be a vestige of pre-field logic. Having less dead fetch lands is important now, and it seems most people realize that. I just strongly disagree that lowering the number of fetches is the best way to combat that issue, especially in light of Azcanta/logic knot.
My manabase is almost the same. The only changes are:
How do you feel about GQ? Doesn't it screw your colours? Do you play Crucible? I like the idea of having a 5th LD, specially one that destroys basics, but I'm afraid of being colour screwed oftenly.
The problem IMO is that the Miracles cards are brokenly efficient if Miracle triggers, but are super clunky and ineffective if they don't. Terminus is totally OP for W, but for 4WW it's just really slow in a format where Verdict costs 1UWW and it's still too slow sometimes. Entreat the Angels is really bad if we can't trigger its Miracles. And since we don't have other ways to reliably setup the Miracle's Triggers, we would be relying too much on Jace.
In the end, we would probably be trying to jam in a Jace to maybe start setting up one Miracles card for the fifth turn. If we just don't draw a copy of him, we're probably dead with a bunch of clunky cards in our hands. If Jace doesn't resolve, we're probably dead too. If resolves, we just spent our turn 4 to set up a wrath for W on turn 5 leaving 4 mana open, and Jace will likely die on the process (to a creature attack or Bolt). Doesn't seem much better than just casting a Verdict turn 4, and than play Jace on turn 5 facing an empty board.
IMO Miracles work(ed) in Legacy because they have Brainstorm and had Top. They also have FoW to protect themselves when they tap out for Jace on turn 4. We don't have these things, so I'm very skeptical about a Miracles deck in Modern.
If Jeskai is the most popular Control and Jund the most popular Midrange, for example, Tron will likely rise with them IMO, because I don't believe Jace or BBE make much difference on their matches vs Tron. Jeskai or Jund will still probably lose hard to Tron, unless they become powerful enough that they can afford to play main deck land hate or spend half of their sideboards to fight Tron. I don't see it happening, but it's a possibility.
I'd say if there'll be a "best" Control in the format, this deck will probably be Jeskai, and the same goes for Jund being the best Midrange. Burns will probably be relevant again for fighting walkers on the Control Mirrors, or to try to beat the fast Aggros that'll just try to go under Jace. If I'm right, Jeskai/Jund probably beat the Aggros, the Aggros beat Tron and Tron beats Jeskai/Jund.
However, if UW proves to be the best U-Control in the format, and it keeps the land hate package, than I agree that Tron is probably gonna be kicked away from the format.
Important to mention: I don't believe there is gonna be one Tier 0~1 U-Control or Midrange in Modern now. I believe there'll probably be a lot of good Jace based decks and some BBE based Midranges. Sultai, Esper, Temur, Naya... who knows what could see play now?
I believe it all comes down to how Jeskai can fight Big Mana decks. I don't believe JTMS improves Jeskai's match up vs Tron or Valakut. So... IMO Jeskai will still be prayed on by Tron. That said, if I am right, I'd say there will still be room for both UW and Jeskai. UW being the best Control for fighting Big Mana, and Jeskai should be better against Aggros and Midranges.
I'll just finish my UW and play my Jaceless version for a while until the hype is gone and JTMS is reprinted.
I don't believe that we will be able to play Miracles just because of Jace. Without Brainstorm and/or Top, I think it would be too hard to rely on Miracles spells. They printed that Brainstorm Merfolk on Rivals of Ixalan, but he costs the same as Jace and allows only one set up.
I believe it all comes down to how Jeskai can fight Big Mana decks. I don't believe JTMS improves Jeskai's match up vs Tron or Valakut. So... IMO Jeskai will still be prayed on by Tron. That said, if I am right, I'd say there will still be room for both UW and Jeskai. UW being the best Control for fighting Big Mana, and Jeskai should be better against Aggros and Midranges.
I'll just finish my UW and play my Jaceless version for a while until the hype is gone and JTMS is reprinted.
I don't believe that we will be able to play Miracles just because of Jace. Without Brainstorm and/or Top, I think it would be too hard to rely on Miracles spells. They printed that Brainstorm Merfolk on Rivals of Ixalan, but he costs the same as Jace and allows only one activation.
Now I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. Do I spend a lot of money on one or two JTMS? What if they ban it again? That doesn't seem unlikely. Jace seems to have power enough to dominate the format.
Not to mention the changes that our deck is probably facing from now on. I would probably have to sell some of my Jeskai stuff to acquire one or two Jaces and now I don't even know if I won't need these stuff. I don't mind playing a Tier 2 or Tier 3 deck. But I really don't want to just play something strictly worse than something else for lack of money.
My only concern is how often I'll need to play Ambush Viper. Even adding the Snare, I'm afraid I might not have enough good spells to consistently fuel 3 Snappys and end up being forced to just play Ambush Viper more oftenly than I'd wish.
I'm ok with having to do that sometimes against some fast Aggros or to impose clocks against some opponents that I'll want to beat fastly, but if that happens too oftenly, I'd rather play something else than 3rd Snappy.
Secure the Wastes could be really good. Don't know what I could cut for it though.
That's the main reason I'm inclined to cut the Walls and keep 3 sweepers main deck (and a 4th on the sideboard). There aren't that many Aggro decks on my field. I'm much more concerned about the U-Controls. There are a bunch of Jeskais, Blue Moons, UW Controls and some GDS, along with a lot of Big Mana Decks, that should be good match-ups. I might miss the Walls vs Burn and the few Aggros, but I also think that Snare and Snappy kind of cover that matches decently.
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Prairie Stream
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Field of Ruin
5 Island
3 Plains
Creatures
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instants
1 Negate
1 Mana Leak
1 Logic Knot
1 Spell Snare
4 Path to Exile
3 Cryptic Command
1 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Serum Visions
3 Supreme Verdict
Enchantments
4 Spreading Seas
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Detention Sphere
Planeswalkers
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Gideon Jura
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Runed Halo
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Wrath of God
1 Celestial Purge
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Dispel
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Disdainful Stroke
I made little tweaks to my MTGO deck for playing IRL. On MTGO I play 2 Wall of Omens and I cut them for 1 Snare and 1 Snapcaster to try to improve my match-up against the U-Controls that are really present on my field. The 3rd Snapcaster might improve my match against the Big Mana decks as well, and might be useful against the few Aggros, I supose.
Have been thinking of adding a 2nd Knot. Maybe on the Snapcaster or the Mana Leak spot. Not sure if I'll be able to use the 3rd Snappy well, since on UW I don't have much cheap and good spells. Anyways... those are my reasons to play this list.
I also have been thinking of adding an EE to my sideboard, but I'm not sure if it should come in, and on what spot. Any thoughts or advices?
I like Shaun Mclaren's version that played 4 Tec Edges, 4 Leaks and 2 Ajani Vengeants. He really commited to the mana denial plan.
I think Lighthouse is bad when you're on the Azcanta plan. Because if you have both, Azcanta is just better, and they cost the same to activate. But if you're not playing Azcanta, I think Lighthouse is really good.
Against GDS I always feel favored. I usually have so many answers, card advantage and powerful top decks that they have a real hard time beating me. Unless they have a God Hand or 3+ discard spells, I'm probably winning the majority of the games against them. I'm probably 65/35 against them, or something close to that.
My manabase is almost the same. The only changes are:
- 1 Hallowed Fountain + 1 Irrigated Farmland
- 1 Ghost Quarter + 1 Glacial Fortress
How do you feel about GQ? Doesn't it screw your colours? Do you play Crucible? I like the idea of having a 5th LD, specially one that destroys basics, but I'm afraid of being colour screwed oftenly.