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Treasure Cruisin' Modern Big Red
  • posted a message on Death And Taxes
    Quote from yodude4 »
    Hey all,

    I've been playing BW Eldrazi and Taxes at the FNM level for a while now, and I noticed that Bridgevine is the hot new thing after the pro tour. RIP seems to be way too slow to really hate out the deck, and I am way too poor to afford a set of Leyline of the Void after the spike. My question is, would cards like Relic of Progenitus and Ravenous trap be effective (if not as powerful) substitutes for Leyline until it gets reprinted or goes down?

    If RiP is not fast enough, Relic won't do the trick. Ravenous Trap or Faerie Macabre could be better, I think? Problem with those is they just stop the problem once, but they're probably dredging more on the following turns, and your hate is gone.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Kiki Chord / Kiki Company / Kiki Evolution
    Actually, Blood Moon is good vs Tron. Problem is it just slows them down, but it doesn't stop them. They'll eventually get rid of it, or just ignore it and hard cast their unbeatable threats anyways. So, just playing Blood Moon isn't enough. You need to beat them as fast as possible after deploying the Moon. It does buy you a reasonable time, however.
    Posted in: Combo
  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)
    I didn't play the deck that much yet, but on my short experience, I felt like the deck performs decently against most U-Control decks in Modern, because most of them play around 6~9 counterspells only, they are oftenly forced to counter my lock pieces, and they usually have a ton of dead cards against me (so do I, but at least I'm not unfavoured for this reason). For that reason I can very oftenly resolve a powerful walker, and anyone of them usually wins the game. Also, if I manage to play a Blood Moon or a Chalice of the Void under their counterspells, I might be able to just lock them enough to win.

    However, if I can't force a lock piece under their conterspells, or just play more threats than they're able to counter, I'm probably losing because I just can't force much end of turn action to force counterspells, and then try to resolve something relevant. Almost everything in my deck is Sorcery Speed.

    For that reason I added a Boil to the sideboard, and I have been thinking of adding a second one. I played against a U Tron recently and it felt really hard for me, because they usually play more counterspells than most Controls in Modern, and they can just play bigger than I do. But when I played Jeskai and UW I felt it was pretty even match. Might be wrong though. I didn't play the deck that much yet.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] R/W Prisons ("Sun and Moon" etc.)
    Hi guys!

    I'm a long time Modern player, but recently decided to play Sun and Moon.

    I finished the deck last week and yesterday accomplished a third place on a local tournament with a 3-1-0.

    I played this deck:


    Ended up facing 2 Junds, 1 Mardu Pyromancer and 1 Abzan Tokens. Lost to one of the Junds in a very close Game 3.

    Has anyone been still playing Sun and Moon? My deck seemed really powerful yesterday. I enjoyed a lot playing it. Have been thinking of cutting the Ajani Vengeant for the 3rd Chandra, Torch of Defiance, cutting the Sarkhan the Dragonspeaker for a Chandra, Flamecaller or a Hazoret and cutting the Molten Rain or the Boil for a Celestial Purge. Any thoughts?
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    I think Chandra is really bad in a heavy counterspell build. The +1 first ability will likely exile something you'd like to draw, and do 2 damage to the face per turn, what is not really impressive considering she's a 4 mana Sorcery speed card that dies through combat or direct damage. If you manage to ultimate her, than yes, she'll end up the game fastly, but what playable walker doesn't win the game once it ultimates or even stick to the board for 4 turns?

    The card advantage she provides doesn't work well on this kind of deck either. The other +1 ability is also bad in a deck that prefers to play stuff on the opponent's turn. That RR could be useful to swing with Colonnades, I guess? Maybe? And... pretty much that's it.

    The -3 is really good in a metagame with a lot of x/4 or lesser creatures. However, we don't really know how will the new metagame look like. It wasn't really where we wanted to be before the unbannings though. She doesn't kill DS creatures (none of them), from Eldrazis she just kills TKS (what IS good btw, but probably not enough to make her really good vs the whole deck), and other creature decks usually just go wide, so killing just one creature with a 4 mana sorcery speed card is probably not great.

    The ultimate is really powerful if you get there.

    So... IMO the problem for her on a stock Jeskai list is the fact that almost all spells from Jeskai are Instant Speed, and most of them are much better if played on our opponent's turn. This ruins her first two abilities. Therefore, you're probably not accomplishing much by just plusing her into the ultimate.

    That said, I do believe that Chandra can be amazing on more Midrangey Jeskai builds, including Jeskai Kiki builds that play more stuff on their own turn. She can help dig into Walls, Restos (which would be better if casted on the opponent's turn, but can be reasonably be cast on your own turn), Kiki Jiki (which she might help casting by adding RR also, or even those Thundermaw/Ojutai builds. Maybe on more aggressive Geist lists as well, with more Burn and less counterspells.

    In the stock Jeskai lists, Tempo or Control, with a lot of Cryptic Commands, Snapcasters, Electrolyzes, etc., I think she's probably a worse Ajani Vengeant.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from rickster_ »
    You are going to run out of fetchable lands with 8 fetchable lands and 12 fetches by virtue of drawing fetchable lands and by your opponents playing their own field/gq. 4-6 blue fetches seems like the sweet spot.

    If you want to play 4 snapcasters you need 4 opts minimum.

    I don't like mana leak though some people still play it.

    I have played 4 logic knot in jeskai and cried in the sideboard games when my opponent opened on turn 1 relic. People will bring in grave hate vs you and logic knot isnt something you always side out. That's something to think about as multiple knots have other unforseen costs. I don't think you have enough 1 cmc cards to play 4 knots anyways.

    Telling time is much much worse than anticipate unless you are playing Miracles. That opinion written in this thread is just wrong, and like they never played telling time before. Both cards are weak though.

    I don't like cutting search for Azcanta, remember that card turns into a mana source for this mana hungry deck. It's not just a slow filtering and a value engine.

    I think that list would be worth testing if you cut some of the knots and all of the anticipates for 1 cmc can trips and a snare and/or some other 1-2 cmc interactive card. I'd cut something to play a search or two. Playing 1 settle the wreckage over the 4th verdict is probably better since you play 4 cryptic and 4 snapcasters.

    Currently the sorcery speed cards have proven their worth, so trying to go more instant speed will be met with criticism.

    In a deck full of fetches, I do prefer Telling Time over Anticipate, because if you see 2 cards you want out of the three, you can keep one at the top and draw the other one. If you want only 1 of the cards, you can draw it, set any other one at top of library and than shuffle it away with a fetch land. Anticipate never gives you such options. If you see 2 good cards, you must bottom one of them and keep one.

    Of course the fetch land shuffle screws your deck in the sense that you might draw the worst card you put at the bottom with the Telling Time. But if you have more ways to manipulate your library, Telling Time seems better to me regardless.

    They are both bad in a Control deck IMO, though. The format is so fast that we can't really afford to spend 2 mana on a "do-nothing" card. It doesn't disrupt our opponent, and it doesn't really help us pull ahead, so... I see little point in playing it on a Control deck. If they did dig deeper, maybe they could be worth, by trying to find our best tools in a given match-up. But digging 3 cards for two mana doesn't seem enoughly good for me. Impulse could be good enough, maybe.

    I do think both are reasonable on Combo decks though, because they are good at trying to find specific cards.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    How have you guys been doing trying to fight opposing Jaces? I feel like I needed to go back to Jeskai in order to have a better game against other Jace decks, but I'd rather stick to UW if I could.

    I feel like Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is really important now to try to fight opposing Jaces. If I stick to UW, I'm probably trying something like 2 Gideon of the Trials, 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar and 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, although it's probably too heavy on PWs.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from Platon »
    Jace is two turns faster than Search when in top deck mode. The same logic applies to Cryptic Command. You get immediate value out of the card, and that's huge when being under pressure. Also, I have the feeling that people use Jace's Brainstorm ability not enough. The play "Jace, BS, he dies" is actually pretty good, not amazing, but still above average (I reiterate: above average!!); but if you Jace, fate seal and it dies anyway, yeah, that's just a wasted Jace TMS, and it happens quite frequently in a Lightning Bolt, Bloodbraid Elf, Reality Smasher metagame. Fatesealing in the dark in account of Lightning Bolt (and nothing else) is an overly risky play.

    This is where I'm right now:



    Looks unconventional, but I'm just throwing this out here, because I want to hear what you think about it, feel free to tear it apart, haha.

    A few comments on card choices:
    I think weak cantrips like Wall of Omens, Spreading Seas, Remand, and Shadow of Doubt are complete garbage compared to "real" cantrips like Anticipate, Serum Visions and Opt. These cards are actually getting there, there is no durdling around.

    8 Fetchlands is the norm for every 3 color deck, yet people refuse to play more than 4 Fetchlands in U/W control. With Jace TMS AND Logic Knot involved (maybe I should only run 3 Logic Knots, 4 is really pushing it), I see absolutely no reason to run less than 8. You can get Burn to above 50% very easily actually. Maybe the matchup is close, but you are in no way an underdog.

    Two of the best cards I decided to omit for the time being are probably Spell Snare and Detention Sphere. The price for running Detention Sphere is - of course - that we would have to make cuts in the permission/disruption department. I think this is not necessarily where we want to be. If there is a problematic permanent that we need to get rid of (like Jace, Blood Moon, Chalice, Lilliana) there is still the gamble that get there with the means that we have available in the main like Vendilion Clique, Cryptics, and generic counterspells. I think it's wiser to shore this weakness up with an appropriate SB.

    Spell Snare, I think, is highly dependent on the metagame. If Storm and Burn rises to the top again, then I'm definitely making the switch, but as long as Bloodbraid Elf and Jace decks are the top tier decks, I stick to two mana counterspells and a high cantrip count (six instead of just four)


    Well... I don't agree with most of your thoughts there. Just my opinions, of course, but there they go:

    Of course Jace and Cryptic Command have an immediate higher impact. I agree with you on that. That's why they cost more mana. We usually play them by the way. But in Modern it's much easier to cast a 1U spell than a 2UU or a 1UUU mana spell. We don't really know for sure where the format is going, but in the Modern we know now, there are a really high number of matches in which you just can't tap out for Jace. In others, Cryptic Command is just clunky and slow. SFA on the other hand is much easier to resolve in U mirrors, and reasonable to deploy vs fast opponents. Although we have to tap the same amount of lands to activate Azcanta, we can do it at Instant Speed, what allows us to generate Card Advantage in our opponent's end step, when they can no longer play some of their high impact spells (Primeval Titan, Past in Flames, Karn or JTMS to name a few). I think each one of these cards is better on the right circunstances. I like SFA enough to play them, and I think it's reasonable to cut them now with JTMS on the format. But SFA is better than JTMS or Cryptic in a really good amount of circunstances.

    I don't agree with your statement about the cantrips either. Yes, Opt, SV and Anticipate are better at finding specific cards, but Wall of Omens, Spreading Seas, Remand and Shadow of Doubt are cantrips that impact the board and/or disrupt your opponent. Wall protects you and your walkers (what is really valuable in UW that usually plays little spot removal count), Seas disrupts your opponent's manabase, Shadow of Doubt also disrupts your opponent's manabase and counters tutor effects, Remand delays your opponent's plays, while all of those cantrips you listed "do nothing" except drawing cards. They don't impact the board and don't disrupt your opponent. So they are essencially Tempo Loss. You're trying to find something on your deck while your opponent is just advancing his board, beating your face, and playing something that is already impacting the game.

    Along with that, your deck has too many 3 and 4 drops. You have 12 cards that cost 4 mana. Your Snapcasters plays will probably cost 4 mana too most of the times, since you have only 6 spells that cost 1 mana, and you're probably not planning to use the Ambush Viper mode that frequently (in which case, Snappy would be just worse than a Wall of Omens in most cases). Too many Cryptics, Verdicts, JTMS, Cliques and Snappys IMO. Results are: your decks seems really clunky to me. You're probably doing "nothing" turns 1 and 2, to maybe do something on turn 3 or 4. Doesn't seem like a good plan to me in Modern, unless you're planning to win on the spot on turns 3 or 4 (like Storm and Ad Nauseam do), or play something much scarier than a Verdict or a Jace (like Karn, Ugin or Ulamog). I believe you'll too oftenly have a hand like 2 JTMS, 1 Cryptic, 1 Verdict and some lands while your opponent is just crushing you with fast creatures for 3 turns.

    So... IMO, your deck can't reliably beat plays like turn 1 Aether Vial (specially with Cavern of Souls), Goblin Guide into Eidolon, discard spell into Bob, discard spell into Bitterblossom, turn 2 Blood Moon on the draw (specially with your higher number of fetch lands), Elves, Revolting Zoo, Hollow One and Dredge, to name a few.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from TheAller »
    I finally got my hands on a copy of JTMS. I'll wait until Masters 25's release to get myself a second one, and maybe even a third one as well.

    Anyways... I was on UW Control myself before the unban, and now I think that Jeskai is probably better positioned than UW, because in my tests, UW struggles so much to fight opposing Jaces. However, in my meta there are tons of Trons, Eldrazis and Valakuts, all of which are really bad match-ups for traditional Jeskai.

    So I ended up brewing a deck that's kind of a mix of Jeskai and UW. Keep in mind that I only play one copy of JTMS because I only have one yet. I intend to add one or two copies later.



    Haven't think about the sideboard yet. I wanted to play a 4th Bolt, but I'm not sure on this.

    Not sure about the manabase too. I tried to put a 3rd Field of Ruin, but I'm not sure I can really afford to do so with only 5 basics. Have been thinking if I'm too heavy on 4 Colonnades... maybe 3 is better? I'm also thinking about maybe cutting the Sulfur Falls for a Spirebluff Canal. Any thoughts?


    If opposing Jaces are a big worry for you, I would start by playing cards that are good against Jace: Secure the Wastes and Vendilion Clique as far as maindeck goes, and possibly Geist in the sideboard.

    I wouldn't call them a "big worry". I just think Jace is probably gonna be oftenly seen in the format from now on, so I intend to have a reasonable plan against him. At least a better plan than what UW can offer (Colonnades and Gideons beats or D-Spheres). For now, I believe my counterspells, Snapcasters and Burns make a solid plan vs opposing Jaces.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    I finally got my hands on a copy of JTMS. I'll wait until Masters 25's release to get myself a second one, and maybe even a third one as well.

    Anyways... I was on UW Control myself before the unban, and now I think that Jeskai is probably better positioned than UW, because in my tests, UW struggles so much to fight opposing Jaces. However, in my meta there are tons of Trons, Eldrazis and Valakuts, all of which are really bad match-ups for traditional Jeskai.

    So I ended up brewing a deck that's kind of a mix of Jeskai and UW. Keep in mind that I only play one copy of JTMS because I only have one yet. I intend to add one or two copies later.



    Haven't think about the sideboard yet. I wanted to play a 4th Bolt, but I'm not sure on this.

    Not sure about the manabase too. I tried to put a 3rd Field of Ruin, but I'm not sure I can really afford to do so with only 5 basics. Have been thinking if I'm too heavy on 4 Colonnades... maybe 3 is better? I'm also thinking about maybe cutting the Sulfur Falls for a Spirebluff Canal. Any thoughts?
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    I’ve got different experiences from you guys. IMHO, Azcanta is at its best. Way better positioned than the same Jace. It’s basically the glue which keeps the deck togheter. Against both Combo and aggressive strategies - where playing a 4cc sorcery speed spell is just nonsensical. And also against Jund it won me much more games than the planeswalker, because it isn’t affected by Bolts and haste creatures. I’ll definitely pack two of them, plus the usual 3 Jace. They complements each other quite well.

    I agree with you on this one. SFA is faster, harder to remove, and can generate value in Instant Speed once it flips. It also searches for JTMS himself or any other thing we might need. I wouldn't play less than 2 now even with 2 or 3 JTMS main deck.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from Coq-tail »
    I think that adding some black for discard will be the best move to protect and help Jace. I'll try to include shadow of doubt spreading seas and at least 2 fields of ruin. What do you guys think?

    I don't know. I have been seeing a lot of streamers play Jace on UBx shells with a lot of discards and removal, and I'm not sure it's a good idea. I think discards are good when you intend to play a cheap and powerful threat right after them, because they are likely dead by turns 4 and later. DS does that with Death's Shadow itself, Tasigur or Gurmag Angler, Jund does that with Bob and Goyf, eventually Liliana, Mardu does that with Young Pyromancer, Fairies and BW Tokens do that with Bitterblossom.

    Jace on the other hand, is a late game powerhouse. So... I think it's antagonic to play both. The discard spells try to help you gain an advantage on the early game, and JTMS tries to make you win the late game. Discards suck in the late game, and Jace sucks in the early game. I think they don't help each other that much. Discards are really bad to draw from Jace's Brainstorm ability, and they won't really protect him unless you save one or two for turn 3, and in that case, they're not being really efficient, and you're probably not disrupting your opponent effectively. Of course you can return un uneeded Thoughtseize to the top of library and than shuffle it away with a fetch land, but I think the discard spells end up increasing the amount of bad draws in your deck on the late game, and that's exactly what JTMS does better.

    I could see discards and JTMS being played on the same deck and working, but IMO, it would work better if you had powerful threats to slam on turns 2 and/or 3, like that Sultai deck with Jace, Goyfs, Bobs, Lillys and some discards. If you have a good threat density he might help by digging into more and more threats, maybe removals. I don't know, however, if Jace is really that good on this kind of deck, as he is on a deck like ours, where almost every card is relevant in the late game. I think in those B based Midranges, top ends like BBE and maybe even Chandra, Torch of Defiance make more sense. Chandra ends the game much faster, deals damage to creatures, to the opponent, and helps find more gas as well if needed (not as good as JTMS in the job, but...). BBE has a much higher immediate impact and also helps end the game faster.

    Could be wrong obviously. But I don't feel like B based Midranges are the best home for JTMS. I think the best shell for Jace is an interactive deck based on counterspells, and not on discards. Counterspells are so much better on the late game, and if you're playing Jace, you should be wanting to make it to the late game oftenly.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on Jeskai Control
    Quote from tronix »
    the idea to cut 1 mana cantrips comes up every so often.

    its a power vs. consistency trade-off. the better your draw is the less there is a need for cantrips. so it becomes easy to theorycraft the deck to the point where you ask yourself why you arent just playing more 'answer' cards.

    the reality ends up being that you lose equity on those games with below average draws, resulting in a net loss for your win percentage.

    I think the cantrips are kind of necessary. Especially in Modern, where we don't have powerful answers for everything. This way, we can try to minimize our chances of drawing Supreme Verdict when we're facing Tron, Logic Knot when we're facing Merfolks, Path when we're facing Ad Nauseam, Cryptic Command when we're facing Affinity, etc.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on UW Control
    Quote from Engsk »
    Without LotV, there are no XBB costed cards. That’s why the missing “maybe” is significant.

    On language:

    Even if the Oxford English Dictionary had an mtg section, it wouldn’t matter because dictionaries aren’t lexical rulebooks; they document popular uses of words(ex: widespread misuse of “literal” led to a new definition being added several years ago). It’s not like it’s publically-visible, but you’re talking down to someone about the game’s basics, who has been playing for over two decades. I know the terminology because I’ve been on the groundfloor of its development for quite some time. “Fish” used to mean a disruptive blue-based weenie deck exclusively; since Lorwyn, it’s most common use refers to “merfolk”(I could go on with examples).

    If you want “splash” to mean more than a small amount of another colour, that’s your business, but save the pedantry for private messages. Also,
    if I made a UWb list, this isn’t the thread where I’d share it.

    Well... I play this game for more than 15 years as well, and I haven't seen any different use of the term "splash" from jayjayhooks's definition. Ever. I watch streams, videos, read guides and never saw anyone call a deck that has more than 10 cards of some colour to be on a splash. My friends never said so as well, and some of them are as old on this game as I am. So... IMO, you're just wrong.

    For me, you're splashing a colour to a deck if you're adding one or two mana producers of the colour to the deck (usually fetchable Shocklands in Modern), and than adding a couple of cards of the given colour to the deck. Something around 6 or less cards, and maybe a couple of sideboard techs, and that's about it.

    If you're planning to add Fatal Pushes, Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseizes, Lilianas, Anguished Unmaking and Lingering Souls, you can't call that a black splash. You're just playing straight Esper. Depending on the build, you could even be playing BW with a blue splash, or UB with a white splash. But a deck with that amount of black could never be on a black splash.

    Boros Burn, for example, plays much less white than you're planning to play black there, and everyone calls it Boros.
    Posted in: Control
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