Also, Azor's opinion upon meeting Ugin isn't very rosy. calling him a friend seemed a bit tongue in cheek. Wondering if most MTG Vorthoses looking at Ugin as the "good" answer to Bolas might be a bit skewed?
There has been a distinct anti-oldwalker bias in Creative over the past couple of years. I suspect it's part of Wizards' drive to convince players (especially older ones) that neowalkers are better because they're nicer people or something.
Well, not all oldwalkers. Jaya, Karn, and Teferi are/were oldwalkers, right? Then again, compared to the likes of Ugin and Azor, they're pretty young still. So maybe it's a bias against the unfathomably ancient.
But I don't think Ugin's actions have ever been good--or evil. As I said before, he's so concerned about the gestalt Multiverse that the fates of individual entities--or individual planes--just can't matter to him as long as they're not part of a trend.
Which admittedly brings up an interesting contrast. Ugin is portrayed as being unable to see the trees for the forest...but perhaps Creative, with their human constraints, have difficulties seeing the forest for the trees?
It's too bad Jace never thought to (or had the knowledge necessary to) tell Azor that Szadek essentially made the original Guildpact abolish itself. I suppose Azor would have thought the Living Guildpact to be of a piece with the original Guildpact, though.
As for Ugin being enlightened good...that kind of falls flat when you consider that he showed little to no remorse for allowing the Eldrazi to consume several planes before deciding to seal them. He isn't evil...but he isn't good. In fact, he probably considers himself to necessarily be above the very concepts of good and evil. However, to tweak a phrase, he can't see the trees for the forest. In fact, I keep thinking of the deadlock he helped maintain on Tarkir (remember that he's the one who taught the khanates manifestation magic); that it's varying degrees of "desperate" for both dragons and non-dragons isn't as important to him as the "balance" he's maintaining. At a guess, I'd say he's given up on saving individuals, and only cares about the gestalt.
It also says something that he apparently became friends with someone as obsessed with conjuring strict order on multiple planes as Azor. That's why I'm thinking Ugin's own goal is something along the lines of setting up whatever oldwalkers remain (and aren't as willfully vile as Bolas) as gods of the Multiverse, expressly to keep it from tearing itself apart. Which brings me to another suspicion of mine regarding Ugin's goals--I think he wants to preserve the Multiverse in the state he knew it as forever. Hence my interest in finding out his reaction to the change in the Spark...
I'm apparently alone here in thinking that Azor was kind of bullied by Jace and Vraska. The thing with UW-types is that they don't ever believe that they are being malevolent in what they are doing, so just using straight up force against them as punishment accomplishes little except making those who feel wronged feel better.
Nicol Bolas, on the other hand, deserves far worse treatment than Azor, yet he gets so many players hard that Wizards is unlikely to give him the comeuppance he truly deserves. I'm talking the ol' Alhammarret mind-reversion-to-infant treatment, dying emaciated and covered in his own feces, except with Bolas' full awareness that of what's going on and that this is how he will die. I would pay money to see that happen.
Anyhow, if Jace allows Bolas to get the Eternal Sun (which we know happens), he's as short-sighted as Ugin claimed he was.
I know I felt a bit let down at how quickly Azor was dealt with. He should have persisted to the close of the Ixalan storyline. Although I do have a feeling that Jace won't so much let Nicol capture the Immortal Sun, as that his efforts will fail to prevent the capture. (Interference from Angrath?)
(I'm curious, by the way. What do players like about Bolas, from what you've heard them say? My identification with planeswalkers, such as it is, is more to the tune of Ajani and Elspeth.)
Thinking about Azor and Ugin being allies, there's something I'm wondering. Namely, does Ugin yet realize that the Spark's nature has changed?
I bring this up because I've been tossing about in my head the idea that Ugin and Azor's ultimate goal is to put the Multiverse under the rule of the most qualified of gods--namely, oldwalkers. All necessary to keep "small minds" from damaging the place beyond repair. And knowing that Ugin sees the Spark as a "gift", he may see the Multiverse itself as having "chosen" those "gods". (On the other hand, given his exasperation with planeswalkers in general, if I remember the close of the Battle for Zendikar story correctly...Like you're not a planeswalker, Ugin.) Could Ugin seek to restore the Multiverse to its pre-Mending state, once he realizes what's happened?
On an allied note, I'm wondering if Ugin created Tarkir, successfully made it genuinely stable--in terms of not dissolving back into the Blind Eternities, that is--and regards himself as its god. Not a particularly nice god, though--his idea of "balance" on Tarkir was a constant deadlock between the dragons and khanates, after all. I have to wonder what he'd envision as good for the Multiverse as a whole.
Well, not all oldwalkers. Jaya, Karn, and Teferi are/were oldwalkers, right? Then again, compared to the likes of Ugin and Azor, they're pretty young still. So maybe it's a bias against the unfathomably ancient.
But I don't think Ugin's actions have ever been good--or evil. As I said before, he's so concerned about the gestalt Multiverse that the fates of individual entities--or individual planes--just can't matter to him as long as they're not part of a trend.
Which admittedly brings up an interesting contrast. Ugin is portrayed as being unable to see the trees for the forest...but perhaps Creative, with their human constraints, have difficulties seeing the forest for the trees?
As for Ugin being enlightened good...that kind of falls flat when you consider that he showed little to no remorse for allowing the Eldrazi to consume several planes before deciding to seal them. He isn't evil...but he isn't good. In fact, he probably considers himself to necessarily be above the very concepts of good and evil. However, to tweak a phrase, he can't see the trees for the forest. In fact, I keep thinking of the deadlock he helped maintain on Tarkir (remember that he's the one who taught the khanates manifestation magic); that it's varying degrees of "desperate" for both dragons and non-dragons isn't as important to him as the "balance" he's maintaining. At a guess, I'd say he's given up on saving individuals, and only cares about the gestalt.
It also says something that he apparently became friends with someone as obsessed with conjuring strict order on multiple planes as Azor. That's why I'm thinking Ugin's own goal is something along the lines of setting up whatever oldwalkers remain (and aren't as willfully vile as Bolas) as gods of the Multiverse, expressly to keep it from tearing itself apart. Which brings me to another suspicion of mine regarding Ugin's goals--I think he wants to preserve the Multiverse in the state he knew it as forever. Hence my interest in finding out his reaction to the change in the Spark...
I know I felt a bit let down at how quickly Azor was dealt with. He should have persisted to the close of the Ixalan storyline. Although I do have a feeling that Jace won't so much let Nicol capture the Immortal Sun, as that his efforts will fail to prevent the capture. (Interference from Angrath?)
(I'm curious, by the way. What do players like about Bolas, from what you've heard them say? My identification with planeswalkers, such as it is, is more to the tune of Ajani and Elspeth.)
I bring this up because I've been tossing about in my head the idea that Ugin and Azor's ultimate goal is to put the Multiverse under the rule of the most qualified of gods--namely, oldwalkers. All necessary to keep "small minds" from damaging the place beyond repair. And knowing that Ugin sees the Spark as a "gift", he may see the Multiverse itself as having "chosen" those "gods". (On the other hand, given his exasperation with planeswalkers in general, if I remember the close of the Battle for Zendikar story correctly...Like you're not a planeswalker, Ugin.) Could Ugin seek to restore the Multiverse to its pre-Mending state, once he realizes what's happened?
On an allied note, I'm wondering if Ugin created Tarkir, successfully made it genuinely stable--in terms of not dissolving back into the Blind Eternities, that is--and regards himself as its god. Not a particularly nice god, though--his idea of "balance" on Tarkir was a constant deadlock between the dragons and khanates, after all. I have to wonder what he'd envision as good for the Multiverse as a whole.