So it's settled then. No cards are bad and no cards are good?
Not even close.
From what im gathering, malakir bloodwitch is the weakest card. Nighthawk is not liked because you tap out turn 3 to eat a removal spell, but that is good because if there is no removal for her, we're in business.
Malakir is the worst card because of her cost. The 4/4 flying pro-white is ok, but with control on the rise back up, she'll get dropped immediately. At 5, most of us, by your own admissions, prefer Mind Sludge turn 5 in most match-ups (aside from maybe boros bushwhacker and RDW).
You really dont want to go down to 22 lands. 23 is pretty much the limit with this deck, you need your land drop every turn til turn 5 at least. If you really dont want to cut a sign in blood, you could always cut a hexmage or a bloodghast instead. But like I already said, you can easly manage with only 3 sign in blood.
I take it you have very little intrest in the vampire deck that took first at states with 18 lands? =)
The thing that bothers me about grim discovery is that i can't get creatures i haven't drawn, or haven't died yet, OR, i can't draw non creature spells such as tendrils, death mark, ect...
You rather have them have 4-5 cards in hand + what you described? Ask Jund players, they hate Mind Sludge.
My point with that was hand size doesn't matter if they got a field full of creatures... My list is the 2nd/3rd post in the forums, but i went back to 3 verdent catacombs, 3 marsh flats, and 0 terris.
Also on the subject of disfigure: I fine deathmark is doing much better main than disfigure ever did...
I agree....with Dark Angel. Running both is the best bet for the the time being. Here is the thing mind game:
Mind Sludge really hurts Jund more than an eldrazi monument which is an easy target for Pulse.
So, what if they don't have pulse? Most only run 3 in the main board nowadays, and what's to say they didn't use it to get rid of a Nighthawk? Mindsludge won't do too much if they already cascaded craziness bbe and bb. Eldazari monument says that jund scoops if they have no pulse. Seems pretty good to me...
There's ah... something wrong in this particular thought. Your worried about -1 hits... and running a full playset of Vampire Lacerator? Are you only running them post the 10 life mark? I'm assuming not.
Comparatively, your taking a oneshot hit from the fetchlands for potentially a lot of advantage. I realize you're running the Lacerators for added synergy with the Nocturnus and all, but if you're really worried about taking hits to your own life then you probably should be considering alternatives.
I just recently started testing lacerator again, and while that is a good point, i still have work i need to go. I am thinking i probably will be putting 2 verdent catcombs back (or going 3 and 3).
I see. When further testing is done, I'd very much like to see the results. I like the idea and I may try MDing Deathmark and test it out, but I just feel that Disfigure in the main may be a lot more versatile. Although it's great tech seeing as everyone is running multicolored creatures with green or white.
Possibly, but i found myself siding deathmark in more often then not, which is why i was trying them main, and the only matchup i really side them out against (Jacerator, The mirror, cruel control/angelfire) and two of those match ups, i side out disfigure anyway...
I had asked this question in the previous thread that was archived: are people thinking the Eldrazi Monument is worth it? I see it in all of the deck lists now, whereas I hadn't before. I played online quite a bit today and only got to play it twice, and it didn't really help me at all.. quite the opposite - they path'ed my ghast which set me up for a slow, painful death.
Considering how major a sludge-that-hits can be, I would probably swap it out for a third sludge -- but have I just not given it enough time to prove itself?
I until recently did not use monument. It plays as nocturnis #5, and when i get it, its a house. That being said, i side it out against anything that runs white (path + purge = bad times). Mind Sludge at 2, seems like te right call. You only ever need 1 to resolve, and i would never want to see more than two in my hand at any given time.
maybe it will take 25 matches or so, but inevitably the CITP tapped bit will cause you to lose, and I am guessing when it happens you will switch to a proper fetch land. I also don't see why you wouldn't use 8 fetch lands, since they are out there. It is critical with Nocturnus.
Even if i do switch the terris back out, i would only run 2 verdents. 6 pain fetches seems like the right number...
Basically, its your call with monument, ive seen 1st place vampires that ran it, and some that didn't. Depends on the meta...
Well then good for you. But i rather take 1 to have my fourth land untap to play my Nocturnous. Also with 4 tendrils of coruption, the life lose is not really a problem. Even if it never happenned to you, it's still possible to get slowed down by terramorphic Expanse and that's something we dont want. But again if it works for you then play it, but I still think it's sub-optimal card to play in Vamps.
I usally terri turn 1 or 3. I originally tested with 8 fetches (no terris) and i felt like i was doing half of the aggro deck's job. Your right, tendrils can offset it, but the problem is drawing it...
Why play Terramorphic Expanse when you have access to Verdant catacomb. Don't say that it's because you dont own Verdant catacomb, it's a competitive thread there's no place here for budget cards.
-2 Terramorphic Expanse
-2 Swamps
+4 Verdant catacombs
You want your nocturnous "on" all the time. The more fetch you play, the better.
If you paid attention to my old list at all in the archives, it has nothing to do with cash (the red splash is actually more expensive). There is a lot fast aggro, bushwhacker, and rdw, so running 4 more -1 life lands is a little too destructive.
Terri does the same job, and i have had no problem with a swamp coming into play tapped, or keeping nocturnis "on" with 6 fetches + sign in blood...
Lacerators are your call. What really catches my eye is the use of Deathmark in the main. Is your meta filled with so much green and white? And if it is, why not four main or another two on the side?
Deathmark pretty much wrecks jund and does something against bushwhacker. I am running 2 main right now because i am in the process of testing. I think one of vampire's players biggest debate should be right about now is Deathmark vs. Disfigure vs. Smother (future). So far, deathmark has been doing wonderfully.
I have found that lacerators help to compliment my nocturnis/monument much more than my previous mono black build in testing (ran pretty much the same as iRebel's example list)
Not even close.
From what im gathering, malakir bloodwitch is the weakest card. Nighthawk is not liked because you tap out turn 3 to eat a removal spell, but that is good because if there is no removal for her, we're in business.
Malakir is the worst card because of her cost. The 4/4 flying pro-white is ok, but with control on the rise back up, she'll get dropped immediately. At 5, most of us, by your own admissions, prefer Mind Sludge turn 5 in most match-ups (aside from maybe boros bushwhacker and RDW).
Stop dancing around the problem, he has a simple question...
I'll make it simple, cut and dry: What is the weakest vampire in the deck?
I want to say its either hexmage or malakir blood witch...
Yeah...i think your right, i just assumed it was 60 cards...
Thats the list that ended up winning with 18 lands, i tend to lean more towards luck, looking at his main deck, but that's just me...
I take it you have very little intrest in the vampire deck that took first at states with 18 lands? =)
The thing that bothers me about grim discovery is that i can't get creatures i haven't drawn, or haven't died yet, OR, i can't draw non creature spells such as tendrils, death mark, ect...
Also, three bloodghasts, imo is the right number...
Also on the subject of disfigure: I fine deathmark is doing much better main than disfigure ever did...
So, what if they don't have pulse? Most only run 3 in the main board nowadays, and what's to say they didn't use it to get rid of a Nighthawk? Mindsludge won't do too much if they already cascaded craziness bbe and bb. Eldazari monument says that jund scoops if they have no pulse. Seems pretty good to me...
I just recently started testing lacerator again, and while that is a good point, i still have work i need to go. I am thinking i probably will be putting 2 verdent catcombs back (or going 3 and 3).
Possibly, but i found myself siding deathmark in more often then not, which is why i was trying them main, and the only matchup i really side them out against (Jacerator, The mirror, cruel control/angelfire) and two of those match ups, i side out disfigure anyway...
I until recently did not use monument. It plays as nocturnis #5, and when i get it, its a house. That being said, i side it out against anything that runs white (path + purge = bad times). Mind Sludge at 2, seems like te right call. You only ever need 1 to resolve, and i would never want to see more than two in my hand at any given time.
Even if i do switch the terris back out, i would only run 2 verdents. 6 pain fetches seems like the right number...
Basically, its your call with monument, ive seen 1st place vampires that ran it, and some that didn't. Depends on the meta...
I usally terri turn 1 or 3. I originally tested with 8 fetches (no terris) and i felt like i was doing half of the aggro deck's job. Your right, tendrils can offset it, but the problem is drawing it...
If you paid attention to my old list at all in the archives, it has nothing to do with cash (the red splash is actually more expensive). There is a lot fast aggro, bushwhacker, and rdw, so running 4 more -1 life lands is a little too destructive.
Terri does the same job, and i have had no problem with a swamp coming into play tapped, or keeping nocturnis "on" with 6 fetches + sign in blood...
Deathmark pretty much wrecks jund and does something against bushwhacker. I am running 2 main right now because i am in the process of testing. I think one of vampire's players biggest debate should be right about now is Deathmark vs. Disfigure vs. Smother (future). So far, deathmark has been doing wonderfully.
My new version dropped the red (just for tendrils sake =/) and runs like this:
4x Marsh Flats
2x Terrimorphic Expanse
17x Swamp
Creatures (24)
4x Vampire Lacerator
3x Vampire Hexmage
3x Bloodghast
4x Gatekeeper of Malakir
4x Vampire Nighthawk
4x Vampire Nocturnis
2x Malakir Bloodwitch
4x Sign in Blood
2x Deathmark
4x Tendrils of Corruption
2x Mind Sludge
1x Eldazari Monument
2x Malakir Bloodwitch
1x Vampire Hexmage
1x Bloodghast
4x Duress
2x Pithing Needle
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Disfigure
I have found that lacerators help to compliment my nocturnis/monument much more than my previous mono black build in testing (ran pretty much the same as iRebel's example list)
Lets here the criticism/your lists.