I'm not interested in derailing a legitimate thread so we can see who has the last word, but if you think the only purpose of my post was to "rant," then perhaps you have some issues with "misreading," as well.
You're right, I did not mention Urge to Feed. I didn't, simply because it's barely worth mentioning. Yes, it kills one or two things that Disfigure doesn't, but for twice the casting cost, it's rarely worth it. The buff ability is rarely worth tapping creatures, and that particular removal slot is mainly used to kill mana dorks (who die to -2/-2 just fine). If bigger things need to die, that's usually what the second slot goes for.
But I don't think that it's particularly worth arguing about, either (since it seems we both feel that Vamps didn't get good enough tools), that's why I didn't mention the very borderline Urge to Feed.
I am not quite sure why you think I misread. The impression I got from you was a rant. Even your first half of your post was basically a history lesson of what vamps was like through zendikar and how each set gave each deck the better tools...
The other half of the post was basically assuming I was taking personal offense to loss of vampires which i have not. I moved on to Valkut Titan and we are happily married. And the last portion was of your personal endeavor to make the deck work, followed by a finisher of being a dog to jund, to which I never actually said that wasn't the case. Anyone with half a brain knew it was a bad match-up, my point was that Vamps was still a respectiful deck to play up and through ROE, and even some may argue that the real downturn was after the PT of Chapin Control, but that is more for debate.
For today's standards, I agree with your assesment. Despite now having two vamp lords for a period of time, captivating vampires does not make up for the deck's issues. Control has the equipment to handle us WoO, Gideon, Mana Leak, ect, while CV does nothing against jund. It is still boltable, and with most jund lists running more removal than ever, is an incredibly downhill battle.
Vampires will always be a great tier 2 deck, but I see it as a dead deck now, and even deader come post rotation pending super shenanigans...
You seem to be taking personal offense each time someone says Vampires aren't a viable deck. You may want to avoid that.
Vampires always flirted with the each of viability in the tournament setting. Unsurprisingly, it's strongest time was just after Zendikar came out. With each new set, other archetypes got helpful new things, while vampires did not. The most promising new card from Worldwake was Kalastria Highborn, but that ended up to not be as helpful as initially expected (which you can argue may have been tied to Bloodghast's fall from usefulness, as well). With Rise of the Eldrazi, Wall of Omens put another nail in Vampire's coffin, and M11's Mana Leak continued to push Vampires to the point of near unplayability in the tournament scene. Vampires used to prey upon control decks, due to its great sideboard options and the ability to play Mind Sludge maindeck, but the more time that passed made this less and less possible. At this point, UW Control has a better matchup against Vampires than it ever has, pushing over 65% (it used to be 38%).
Now, don't get me wrong - I love Vampires. I've been playing them since before Zendikar (I attempted to make something just based off Nocturnus and the other Vampires in M10. Unsurprisingly, it didn't work that well), because I love the tribe. And there IS some power there. But right now, it simply does not have favorable matchups against ANY of the top tier decks (UW Control, Naya Shaman, GR Primeval Titan, Jund). That's bad news, and impossible to ignore. I'm not saying Vampires can never win a game, but it is unlikely to win any tournaments in the near future.
Also, whether or not you take personal offense to it, Vampires was and still is a dog to Jund. You can argue it all you want, but the numbers do not lie. There have been multiple analysis of matchups (both on the official tournament coverage on Wizards.com and in William Spaniel's metagame analyses) that show that at its best times, Vampires had a 33% win percentage against Jund. That's terrible. Despite this, I was still able to win a Worldwake GameDay in LA with Vampires, beating multiple Jund decks. Again, I'm not saying it's impossible to win, just that it's foolish to pretend that it's a GOOD deck right now.
I am going to be blunt with you, go back and read my first post, not my response to Mr. one-liner:
I disagree, vampires were PTQ worth since zendikar and all the way through up until right before RoE.
Get the emphasis? I have no intrest in vamps today. I lost hope after RoE when the only questionable card we got was Inquisition of Koziliek. m11 curioused me to if nocturnis was coming back, and when i noticed it wasn't i lost any hope for it being a post rotation God (losing tendrils of corruption as well). WW gave us urge to feed as well, a strictly better last gasp that you did not mention...
Bottom line, my response was a disgreement to a statement that vamps was never a deck, not that it is a deck now. But you took it upon yourself to go on a rant due to a misread. I am not upset nor offended, but merely pointing out an error in judgement.
So what you are saying is because the economy is bad you are less able to afford luxuries? And WOTC is immune to all things related to a recession? They need to stay reasonably profitable, and the only way to do that is to get people to OPEN BOOSTERS, no one would open a pack if it wasent a free pack or if they couldent open a 50$ bill. If it's asinine to spend money, then don't do it and don't play magic. Most people wont so obviously Wizards knows what they are doing with rarities, and how to make money (it IS a buisness)
I am speaking for myself, and taking a guess at people who are also unhappy. And you fail at reading, I didn't say I was any less able to afford luxuries. I said I personally, am hesitant to purchase said luxuries, and if you took even a single economics class, you know that in a recession, people hoard cash and are less likely to spend. Wizards does what it has to as a business, but we can't have bs like Jace showing up once every other block.
And there is nothing wrong with opening 20$ to spur peoples interest in buying packs, ravnica was very good at that. And last i checked, time spiral, planar chaos, lorwyn, shadowmoor, zendikar, (get the picture yet?) didn't need a 50$ card to sell boosters.
Last thing, seriously: Drop the "live with it or get out" line. Its getting real tiresome, to hear about how apparently, "no one" has an issue except our small little group. If I want to come hear to gripe or listen to other people gripe, I am well within my right. If anyone goes into a competitive deck thread and whines about price, you are within your right to tell them they are out of line, there.
The other half to the issue is that we are in an economy where jobs are not secure, and saving is better than spending. For me now, I have quite a bit of cash saved up from summer hours, but I have no idea my future at a place called medinah, and that being said, I can't justify spending 500$ on cards. It just seems asinine to me. But then, unlike most of the top8 from nats, according to one source, most of them are not employed while only one can actually call magic "work", so make of that what you will....
Vamps laid down to the most heavily played deck by far in that time period, Jund.
Not every time, and no where in my statement did I say the opposite, but I stand by my statement that vampires was a PTQ worthy deck through Worldwake. 5cc before M10 was considered PTQ worthy even though it had a really rough time against the best deck in the format at that time: Faeries.
Tier 2 decks were more than fine for PTQs, it was once vampires realized that control was getting more tricks and better and better to the point where vamps were either even or unfavorable that I believe vampires was unworthy for competitive level events...
I don't think Vampires were really ever... "alive" I guess you could say. It was a perfectly fine FNM deck, no doubt (I played it quite a bit at FNMs actually) but for higher level things such as PTQs GPs or PTs, I really don't think so. Especially since Nocturnus will be gone soon.
I disagree, vampires were PTQ worth since zendikar and all the way through up until right before RoE. Then what happened to the deck is similiar to what happened to Boros Bushwhacker: We just didn't get anything new while jund, uw(x) control got new toys, and even new archtypes spawned. Vamps either had to be completely revamped like some of the boros lists that showed up, or just die.
im currently testing 2 of in my deck with 14 bombs and 3 ST summoning trap)
the hope is just to trap into him before blockers or EOT to swing for 14 or so.
I really dont like this Gigantor getting chumped and the 3 damage isn't much but of course can add up.
Although, if your getting an arc lightning to wipe out creatures, and he is still getting chumped, your board is probably in great position....
That being said, I would run him as a 2-of, but a 2-of that does not replace Siege-gang...
Any sweeper after the first won't do more than 1-for-1 anyway, unless your opponents simply don't learn. The only reason I'd want more sweepers is for a better chance to draw one but Bolt and friends are a little more flexible and efficient.
Also, I must gripe about the topic title. It's not removal, it's burn... Well, most of 'em anyway.
Alright smart ass ;). The only reason I said removal in the title was because very seldom will people who run bolt be aiming at the face with it. If that were the case, i would rather be running ramp/threats. Burn is meant to be solely for removal. I'd run flame slash over it if it was an instant...
That being said, ive considered switching bolts for forked bolt, just worrying about mythic....
Been playing VT for quite some time, I have just been quiet on the developing competitive forum, but one thought that always struck me as debatable is it worth it to run 4 bolt in the md, or should i just devote more sideboard cards to burn. The only reason i considered taking away from the combo is that on the draw, a turn 2 fauna shaman hurts like hell, and even on the play, if i am not bull rushing out the gate. Recently ran 2 Burst/4 bolts, cut the burst, to add inferno since i noticed I was not always drawing business spells
What are your guys' thoughts on this? Are decks like naya/bant fauna shaman worth the md bolts? It also helps the RDW matchup slightly...
Unvote AE
Btw, the blowout I was referring to on page 1 is the south park mafia with a perfect win for the scum.
I am not quite sure why you think I misread. The impression I got from you was a rant. Even your first half of your post was basically a history lesson of what vamps was like through zendikar and how each set gave each deck the better tools...
The other half of the post was basically assuming I was taking personal offense to loss of vampires which i have not. I moved on to Valkut Titan and we are happily married. And the last portion was of your personal endeavor to make the deck work, followed by a finisher of being a dog to jund, to which I never actually said that wasn't the case. Anyone with half a brain knew it was a bad match-up, my point was that Vamps was still a respectiful deck to play up and through ROE, and even some may argue that the real downturn was after the PT of Chapin Control, but that is more for debate.
For today's standards, I agree with your assesment. Despite now having two vamp lords for a period of time, captivating vampires does not make up for the deck's issues. Control has the equipment to handle us WoO, Gideon, Mana Leak, ect, while CV does nothing against jund. It is still boltable, and with most jund lists running more removal than ever, is an incredibly downhill battle.
Vampires will always be a great tier 2 deck, but I see it as a dead deck now, and even deader come post rotation pending super shenanigans...
I am going to be blunt with you, go back and read my first post, not my response to Mr. one-liner:
Get the emphasis? I have no intrest in vamps today. I lost hope after RoE when the only questionable card we got was Inquisition of Koziliek. m11 curioused me to if nocturnis was coming back, and when i noticed it wasn't i lost any hope for it being a post rotation God (losing tendrils of corruption as well). WW gave us urge to feed as well, a strictly better last gasp that you did not mention...
Bottom line, my response was a disgreement to a statement that vamps was never a deck, not that it is a deck now. But you took it upon yourself to go on a rant due to a misread. I am not upset nor offended, but merely pointing out an error in judgement.
I am speaking for myself, and taking a guess at people who are also unhappy. And you fail at reading, I didn't say I was any less able to afford luxuries. I said I personally, am hesitant to purchase said luxuries, and if you took even a single economics class, you know that in a recession, people hoard cash and are less likely to spend. Wizards does what it has to as a business, but we can't have bs like Jace showing up once every other block.
And there is nothing wrong with opening 20$ to spur peoples interest in buying packs, ravnica was very good at that. And last i checked, time spiral, planar chaos, lorwyn, shadowmoor, zendikar, (get the picture yet?) didn't need a 50$ card to sell boosters.
Last thing, seriously: Drop the "live with it or get out" line. Its getting real tiresome, to hear about how apparently, "no one" has an issue except our small little group. If I want to come hear to gripe or listen to other people gripe, I am well within my right. If anyone goes into a competitive deck thread and whines about price, you are within your right to tell them they are out of line, there.
Not every time, and no where in my statement did I say the opposite, but I stand by my statement that vampires was a PTQ worthy deck through Worldwake. 5cc before M10 was considered PTQ worthy even though it had a really rough time against the best deck in the format at that time: Faeries.
Tier 2 decks were more than fine for PTQs, it was once vampires realized that control was getting more tricks and better and better to the point where vamps were either even or unfavorable that I believe vampires was unworthy for competitive level events...
Edit: Ty Exlight, I really hope we are on the same team now, because I really don't want to send you to the gallows now
Just a thought, it could annoy the heck out of RDW. Stops goblin guides or forces a couple burn spells...
I disagree, vampires were PTQ worth since zendikar and all the way through up until right before RoE. Then what happened to the deck is similiar to what happened to Boros Bushwhacker: We just didn't get anything new while jund, uw(x) control got new toys, and even new archtypes spawned. Vamps either had to be completely revamped like some of the boros lists that showed up, or just die.
Although, if your getting an arc lightning to wipe out creatures, and he is still getting chumped, your board is probably in great position....
That being said, I would run him as a 2-of, but a 2-of that does not replace Siege-gang...
Alright smart ass ;). The only reason I said removal in the title was because very seldom will people who run bolt be aiming at the face with it. If that were the case, i would rather be running ramp/threats. Burn is meant to be solely for removal. I'd run flame slash over it if it was an instant...
That being said, ive considered switching bolts for forked bolt, just worrying about mythic....
Been playing VT for quite some time, I have just been quiet on the developing competitive forum, but one thought that always struck me as debatable is it worth it to run 4 bolt in the md, or should i just devote more sideboard cards to burn. The only reason i considered taking away from the combo is that on the draw, a turn 2 fauna shaman hurts like hell, and even on the play, if i am not bull rushing out the gate. Recently ran 2 Burst/4 bolts, cut the burst, to add inferno since i noticed I was not always drawing business spells
What are your guys' thoughts on this? Are decks like naya/bant fauna shaman worth the md bolts? It also helps the RDW matchup slightly...
4x Evolving Wilds
3x Terrimorphic Expanse
4x Valkut
5x Forest
11x Mountain
Creatures (16)
3x Seige-gang Commander
4x Primeval Titan
3x Avenger of Zendikar
2x Inferno Titan
4x Overgrown Battlement
4x Rampant Growth
4x Khalani Heart Expidition
2x Harrow
3x Cultivate
2x Explore
4x Obstinate Baloth
2x Summoning Trap
4x Back to Nature
3x Acidic Slime
2x Comet Storm