I think Nacho is town regardless of KCC's alignment. Burning all of his hard earned towncred and killing his endgame potential to get KCC of all people lynched on day 1 is the stupidest move Nacho could make as a wolf, and Nacho isn't stupid.
Nacho, if KCC does flip mafia, could you please reassess at least a little on fulcrum. I don't want to foment paranoia, and I'm not saying you should jump into a scumread, but I think she has several things tying her to KCC and dk (and to tom to a lesser extent) and I think your super strong townread on her is a little reckless.
Wrt KCC, the way that KCC poked fulcrum then immediately backed off when fulcrum explained herself makes more sense to me as distancing than KCC poking a villager. She doesn't get anything out of that exchange in a mafia KCC / town fulcrum world. I also think fulcrum's general effort to not lynch KCC, particularly 1479 which is both wishy-washy and protective of KCC, is exactly how she handles KCC in this gamestate when they're partners.
Wrt dk, I think fulcrum's placement of dk in her readlist in 895 is exactly where she puts him if they're together, and I don't think that level of townread vibes with what dk had put into thread in relation to her other reads. Their interaction in 324 felt a little showy. Add in fulcrum's defense of dk in 1479 and her treatment of him overall, I think she's overly generous to him without ending up at a solid townread in a way that doesn't feel genuine and overly focused on defending him rather than explaining her own townread on him.
Wrt tom, and this is pretty nebulous, I think scum!fulcrum is less likely to bother giving town!tom such a careful and detailed townread, but does want to give it to scum!tom.
Last and Axel are the only two I remember really saying much about it right at this moment.
Last has been saying that KCC's softclaim is a reason for her to be town all game. Axel has been analyzing her claim in the past couple of pages since she claimed. No one scumread her for softing a scummy PR. There is no contingent of people.
Can't say I've ever been in a game before where no one really wants to lynch the two main wagons but also doesn't have anything to say to defend them, or have any real alternatives. I don't know what this means about who mafia is but am excited to find out.
I'm thinking about starting a wagon on Grape. When adrift in game, things closer to home are more likely to be useful, and his treatment of me is very close to home.
Gemma, you seem to be in a tunnel with me that I won't be able to to talk you out of, and that just is what it is. But I want to address a couple things that you're wrong or misguided on.
dk, am not tunneled on you by any stretch of the imagination. And while I always appreciation having misconceptions of mine corrected, trying to convince me that I'm wrong about you is just as pointless as me trying to convince you that I'm right about you. Don't tell me that I'm wrong about you, show me that I am.
Am not even voting you right now, am voting KCC, and am following Nacho's lead on where my vote goes because he believes in his KCC vote, I believe in him and it's important to support each other.
Guess I'll talk about 1397 now. Was hoping someone would bite. Don't really feel like I have the luxury to just wait for someone to do so with as little time left to deadline as we have.
Firstly, the inconsistency between him saying he was confbiased on townreading us (1381), and him implying he had been feeling bad about me for some time before I made an analysis post (723) makes me doubt that his stance on me is real. This ultimately isn't a strong point. No one's memory is perfect and am relying on conjecture to a degree because he doesn't seem big on thought process transparency.
Secondly, I think the bottom two quotes in 1397 show some process contradictions in his play here. He has shown that he's inclined to analyze people not voting a wagon over focusing exclusively on wagon votes. He has scumread another player for using arbitrary associations with a wagon to scumread players, which is what he later did with the vezok wagon. These two things are important because, going back to this:
Looks like Mindreaver is gonna be replaced, so I'm going to park my vote here for now. I think it's very likely that exactly one of the rush votes after I posted my case on vezok came from scum, and KCC's is the most dubious when coupled with earlier play.
Why is it very likely? He gives no reason for why he thinks this. The scum motivation here isn't very mysterious: to use the fact that people pushed on a town slot as a way to push them, without actually examining why they pushed on the slot, ignoring the fact that he also pushed on the town slot. KCC is an easy wagon to push, he had already voiced suspicion of her, so he votes her just because, without even looking at why she voted vezok.
Whether or not this is a scummy thing that town!dk is doing or a scummy thing that scum!dk is doing remains to be seen.
I think I can more safely argue now that this is more indicative of scum!dk than town!dk. I know from those posts that I just talked about that he's aware, on a process level, about analyzing a wagon in a way that goes beyond just "scum hop on wagons". He's aware of the scum motivation to do essentially what he did with vezok, and why that's bad process. This makes it hard for me to see his treatment of the vezok wagon and his subsequent justification of it (meta precedents and data-oriented process) as a real town process he has.
It also tingles my "KCC-DK team"-dar because what better way to frame towncred than "I caught her sheeping my case on town"??? This read can be softened a bit if DK actually has examples of rush votes by scum after a case has been posted.
I think it's immaterial whether or not he has the examples. I believe him that his brains deals in data and that's his focus. I just don't think that explains his behavior.
DK's entrance came when the initial Axelrod wagon had just ramped up. In this post, he expresses a pretty easy Vaimes-town read which I think is more likely to be scum than not; scum probably don't consider Vaimes to be a viable mislynch in this playerlist, and so they townread him early and forget about him in general. I think him not putting a ton of thought into his Vaimes read is backed up by his post 316 where he drudges up a few Vaimes quotes that don't mean much of anything. I also don't really dig the substance of his attack on Vezok; he attacks Vezok for "mentioning LW in his readslist and not having anything to say about him" (why is this scummy?) and the "it's not like my mind is made up/my mind is made up" contradiction. I'm of the opinion that neither of these things are particularly scummy, but I acknowledge that it could be a clash of playstyle here.
In his second entrance, my problem with him is more his focus than anything else. Like, I understand having problems engaging with the game, but the questions that he asks to get himself back in the game are... 1) asking me why I'm not bothered by Gemma's buddying (but he doesn't really seem to have problems with either of us), 2) why Silver is asking to compare his reads with tom's when tom isn't in his scumlist (but he also doesn't really seem to have problems with silver), and pointing out that KJ's non-align of Silver and I didn't make sense (when he doesn't have a problem with me OR KJ or Silver). If you're lost in the game but you thought that vezok was scummy earlier in the game due to a couple of contradictions, wouldn't you prod vezok a little more instead of throw some odd questions to people that you called town (or townish) earlier in the same post?
I also don't really like his progression on M1ndreaver from this post to this one. The progression of treating M1ndreaver with kid's gloves initially to warming up his spot on M1nd's wagon later feels slimy since the second post comes after it becomes clear the m1nd wagon is sticking around for a while.
This post I also don't like; just feels like he's trying to keep the M1nd wagon alive while he's pushing the Vezok wagon, which is an odd perspective for a townie to take, in my opinion.
I don't really have any significant problems with the big case on Vezok, but I don't like the "there's probably scum in the people who rush voted immediately after" bit. Gemma already pointed this out, but the only thought he had on KCC to this point is that she was buddying KJ with her "KJ is a good player!" comments so the "...and based on her previous behavior..." comes across as filler when there's nothing to back it up.
/barn
I don't think any of this is a slam dunk. Not even close. I have dk at 60/40 town/mafia - a weak scumread, still more likely to be town than mafia. But it's the strongest scumread I have right now, so am working with what I've got. And that's just me.
The wagon on me early on was literally started by a naked vote, fell apart before I even came back to the game, and looked like people fishing for reactions. The Vez wagon was prompted by an actual case and content.
I also probably conf-biased it a bit since I was townreading all of the players who voted me.
Yeah, trying to look at the votes on me from Monday is literally useless. Nacho seems to be putting in consistent effort to Figure Things Out, so he seems fine, and the other three votes were just sheeping. I guess Gemma's later explanation of helping Nacho along is... ok, I guess, given their apparent level of familiarity.
I see there is a wagon on me that mostly looks like naked votes/sheeping... so not sure how much I can dissect from that. I think the reactions of people who didn't vote might be a better source of analysis.
I still really don't like his comment that my wagon "reeked" of frustration. He essentially threw shade at 30% of the playerbase without bothering to extrapolate on exactly what it was he thought he saw. And his further explanation after he was asked about it didn't actually explain anything.
Quoting Nacho's posts about KCC here because he said a lot of very good things. Plus my own comment that her trajectory on me is rubbish and the way she's been treating Nacho slimy as **** - she completely lacks paranoia about him while he's pushing super hard on her and is talking to Keldeo about how he's being reasonable and town and that's just not how villagers behave when being pushed.
I don't overreact to pressure, I'm used to it. Someone voting me doesn't automatically make them scum. It's probably my favorite way to gauge someone's motives, and I liked his approach
That is fair and I retract my concerns about that. And now I will take a leave of absence from thread - when I start having fun I get sucked into the game and start posting a lot and forget that other people hate it and that's bad!
Then stop gnashing your teeth and making subtle jabs at me.
Well then maybe stop acting like you're queen of the thread. It's just a little annoying watching you actively make the game unplayable while wondering why the game state is a mess
Oh, sorry, suppose I have been posting a bit much. Guess I lost track of that somewhere along the way. Definitely wasn't trying to act like queen of anything.
Quoting Nacho's posts about KCC here because he said a lot of very good things. Plus my own comment that her trajectory on me is rubbish and the way she's been treating Nacho slimy as **** - she completely lacks paranoia about him while he's pushing super hard on her and is talking to Keldeo about how he's being reasonable and town and that's just not how villagers behave when being pushed.
I swear whenever nacho gives reads, they are wolfy as *****, but when he attacks people he is full on bravado, and it kinda looks townie
@vaimes
If you are a wolf this game, I will hate myself letting you live past day 1, but given that you have this impenetrable day 1 meta armor, it's actually impossible
then put what you call "bravado" in your back pocket because this is the feeling that i can't fake as scum.
i'm very confident in the town circle because there are a bunch of people putting genuine effort into solving the same that i feel are leaps and bounds apart from their scumgames, and i don't feel these games come along very often.
kitty is scum. the towniest thing she's done this game is claim that she has a scummy PR which isn't anywhere enough to excuse her overall reactions with the vezok and m1ndreaver wagons (contributes nothing agrees with case, contributes nothing agrees with case, oh here's a case on m1ndreaver that's literally her just saying "this is fake" 5 times with quotes).
i hate her treatment of Gemma; she seems to circle around a scumread throughout the entirety of the exchange (and I think that Kitty as town would be scumreading Gemma after some of her exchanges), but she never actually bites back because she doesn't want to scumread a universal townread. there's no point where Kitty seems like she's pursuing a genuine read and the things that she does decide to pursue have a very, very clear agenda for Kitty as scum.
I'm not really a fan of KCC's #740. She posts that she's in the process of catching up, says that she's more than happy to address any off-hand things in the mean time - Silver asks her to comment on top wagons, she offers a bunch of non-controversial opinions and then disappears. Seems like the perfect example of a wolfy pop-in; do just enough to make sure that everyone knows you're around, then disappear again.
Disappear... as in used my available time the next day to read instead of post?
Also, look, I love playing scum when I roll it. Lurking is not a thing I do, I think it's against the spirit of the game, and just a bad strategy anyway.
If you have an issue with my content, cool, but I'm a little tired of being attacked for dealing with an IRL issue at this point
This is also a very opportunistic hop onto the Vezok wagon - really don't like how the sum of her contribution to it so far is "i agree with what x said about vezok!". don't like that she's not really trying to figure out the alignment of anyone who she's lynching.
I think Vez is way easier to read under pressure. My vote was me trying to figure out her alignment.
You have limited time to post, I'm completely okay with that (I also have limited time!).
However, instead of using your limited time to post something useful like... unique thoughts, feelings you had about the game, things that you thought were important, you posted a bunch of non-controversial opinions on the wagon because Silver asked. I have a problem with that because I don't think it is how a townie approaches the game when catching up. I also don't like that you boiled down your push on me to "you're another one pushing me for lurking".
When you voted vezok, why choose to vote Vezok over M1nd? Why not vote Vezok earlier if you think that she's easier to vote under pressure?
Nacho
Last
Asta/Killjoy
Keldeo/Silver
Vaimes/fulcrum
Jack/Axel [null]
Rhand/tom/Grape
KCC/dk
-
-
-
Vote: KCC
L-4
Putting my legacy in a spoiler so I don't overwhelm people with all the words.
Wrt KCC, the way that KCC poked fulcrum then immediately backed off when fulcrum explained herself makes more sense to me as distancing than KCC poking a villager. She doesn't get anything out of that exchange in a mafia KCC / town fulcrum world. I also think fulcrum's general effort to not lynch KCC, particularly 1479 which is both wishy-washy and protective of KCC, is exactly how she handles KCC in this gamestate when they're partners.
Wrt dk, I think fulcrum's placement of dk in her readlist in 895 is exactly where she puts him if they're together, and I don't think that level of townread vibes with what dk had put into thread in relation to her other reads. Their interaction in 324 felt a little showy. Add in fulcrum's defense of dk in 1479 and her treatment of him overall, I think she's overly generous to him without ending up at a solid townread in a way that doesn't feel genuine and overly focused on defending him rather than explaining her own townread on him.
Wrt tom, and this is pretty nebulous, I think scum!fulcrum is less likely to bother giving town!tom such a careful and detailed townread, but does want to give it to scum!tom.
Bro, you ****ed up.
Am not even voting you right now, am voting KCC, and am following Nacho's lead on where my vote goes because he believes in his KCC vote, I believe in him and it's important to support each other.
Guess I'll talk about 1397 now. Was hoping someone would bite. Don't really feel like I have the luxury to just wait for someone to do so with as little time left to deadline as we have.
Firstly, the inconsistency between him saying he was confbiased on townreading us (1381), and him implying he had been feeling bad about me for some time before I made an analysis post (723) makes me doubt that his stance on me is real. This ultimately isn't a strong point. No one's memory is perfect and am relying on conjecture to a degree because he doesn't seem big on thought process transparency.
Secondly, I think the bottom two quotes in 1397 show some process contradictions in his play here. He has shown that he's inclined to analyze people not voting a wagon over focusing exclusively on wagon votes. He has scumread another player for using arbitrary associations with a wagon to scumread players, which is what he later did with the vezok wagon. These two things are important because, going back to this:
I think I can more safely argue now that this is more indicative of scum!dk than town!dk. I know from those posts that I just talked about that he's aware, on a process level, about analyzing a wagon in a way that goes beyond just "scum hop on wagons". He's aware of the scum motivation to do essentially what he did with vezok, and why that's bad process. This makes it hard for me to see his treatment of the vezok wagon and his subsequent justification of it (meta precedents and data-oriented process) as a real town process he has.
And that is why I disagree with Nacho on this:
I think it's immaterial whether or not he has the examples. I believe him that his brains deals in data and that's his focus. I just don't think that explains his behavior.
As for the rest of Nacho's post,
I don't think any of this is a slam dunk. Not even close. I have dk at 60/40 town/mafia - a weak scumread, still more likely to be town than mafia. But it's the strongest scumread I have right now, so am working with what I've got. And that's just me.
/pop out.