I stand by what i said although, I agree it's super arrogant. Do I have to play devotion 24/7 to prove it? I built some creative decks that were not competitive but it took me some time to figure it out, and also they were unique enough that despite suspecting it, I would have to keep playing them for fun. Wizard did a good job these last months printing cards that would play differently than the ones available before, so it was great to try something i never had the occasion to.
I developped my build/cards choices enough in what I believe a technical way and did not get a clear answer (to me) from you guys about them or other devotion versions of green devotion. Are you guys playing on Mtgo or respectable tournaments so that we can talk about tight plays and technologies? Curdbros, you should invest 100 or 200 box so that we can have a real debate here.
By the way, i added 2 tribes in my deck and am looking forward to play a few leagues. Phoenix being "banned" and stoneforge mystic coming back may help the deck to be viable again.
I don't really see the point in playing the new lands that sac to draw. I think it's incoorect to play below 16 forests. You would mulligan too much and the deck already mulligans a lot (in the dark, only keep first hand with a 1 drop accelerator). You have to go above 21 lands if you already have 4 nykthos and 1 kessig to integrate other value lands. I tried Horizon Canopy and it did not do enough. I am playing Coco, Witness, Primal Command etc, so I am not flooding that much and most problems I encounter are more about having my guys getting killed and missing 4th or 5th land than flooding.
I have been trying Jadelight Ranger over Courser of Kruphix. Courser is generally better than Jadelight over the long run, but I was thinking that the ability to dig could help the deck to be slightly faster, and pitching cards with Jadelight, thus not doing card advantage, would not be that much of a disadvantage since i was looking for precise cards(like coco, primal command). However, I feel like the deck is not consistent enough and as a result, it's probably often better to sit behind the courser waiting to draw something(plus there's a great synergy with fetches and the Knight if you are lucky to have both in play). I have then been trying 1 Yavimaya Dryad over a Courser and it seemed good. With 21 lands, I often brick and if my mana guys die, I still have a good amount of lands, plus the upside is not too bad since it provides 2 devotion and searches for a land.
By the way, I noticed there are some cards in the Collected Company that you would much prefer to hit off the Coco than play from your hand. Fauna Shaman as an example is cluncky since she does not do much at first (only Craterhoof as a target, and Knight if you have nothing to do, Bellower sometimes, sb slots), and does not do any mana or relevant devotion. It's good if you hit it of Company but hard to integrate in the curve from your hand. Wistful Selkie was a bit the same, because she costs GGG and the draw's not always impactful. I suspect the new GGG elf is suffering the same problem, since it is fragile as well. Given that the chances playing cards of your hand versus hitting them of the coco is about 70/30, I am not that confident about him for my deck. Still, given its upside, I'll try him and will probably be suprised.
Thanks Curdbros for taking care about the forum despite MtgSalvation being about to close (why are they by the way?)
Llanowar Tribe seems insane, especially if you find it at instant speed with coco to lower the chances of your opponent killing it on the spot, and then have a stupid turn. Seems 100 times more powerful than Courser, Selkie, Garruk... Makes it more reliable to have the 8 mana for Primal Command lock a turn earlier, although that still implies having nykthos, or an utopia sprawl to make the loop on turn 3. It could also help to chain cocos with eternal witness. Also, given that it's GGG, it's hard to play many since you may have Nykthos or Kessig and not be able to cast it on turn 2. I also wonder if it not being resilient doesn't make it belong to a more traditional elves deck that's more all in, as you guys said. However, it's so powerful that it will probably be a good addition overall and increase the deck's power in general (I hope :). It will probably be Knight 5 and 6 in my deck.
I don't really see Wild Growth being reprented. It would probably make the deck (and others, who knows) too consistent.
I wonder if you often have enough lands in the graveyard for Wrenn and Six. I have 8 fetches in my graveyard and often have to play vanilla witness just to develop my board or increase my devotion on turn 2. It's probably a worse witness.
By the way, Eladamri's call seems worth trying as well. I wonder how you can effectively use it...
Hey Curdbros. Thanks for your answer, I had been a bit direct in my last post, but I felt like I needed to precisely justify some of my thoughts, and my conviction (not against you) that some people may express sophisticated theories about modern but still be totally wrong... I took some time to develop to be clear and so that I won't have to do it again.
I may try the Karn version, but I have been losing a bit last weeks with my brews and don't have many ticks available I wonder if it's not suffering the same interaction problems that older version(< turn 3), since arbor elf / utopia sprawl plus 2 forest doesn't come that often to play Karn,etc.... Also, isn't cage a nonbo with Genesis Wave (not sure of the rule), although it seems good to have cheap cards like this to grab with Karn? About the 4 mana Kiora, I am not sure you need it since you already have Garruk and the other Kiora to combo, and her =2 is not that great. I honestly have no idea how Karn would do and if it wouldn't deprive yourself from other sideboard options.
Again, I encourage you to record a few videos if you have access to Mtgo.
1/ I agree with what you said regarding the bird. I was thinking it would be better against decks like tron, add nauseam, etc... but probably worse against decks with cheap spot removals, and it also affects the way you fetch so sometimes having it killed is even worse for you mana I noticed. Still it's possible that it's better to have it against humans or spirits just because you can play niv or bloodbraid elf a turn faster. I can afford to take them out against wu control but not against decks like jund where I don't have good enough sb slots. By the way, I have enmoored ego and crumble to dust which seem redundant (where would you bring unmoored ego except against Tron?). Also I removed a trophy from the main since decks often use the mana I am giving them but removing birds and keeping 2 trophies main may keep the Tron mu favorable (I have been winning a lot against them).
2/ I am not a big fan of Grim Flayer and Sygg because you have to work for them. They aren't very good Magic Cards I feel. It's sure they seem better in your list because you have more cheap removals to trigger them. I agree on the manabase and reworked mine because it had issues. Still it's not perfect (coiling oracle which i like better than growth spiral and helix on 2).
4/ 5/ Glittering wish is often cluncky that's right especially in game 2 where you don't keep impactful slots against some matchup. The tempo loss can be offset by Bloodbraid. It's probably too cute. Note I keep the 5 mana UG spell in the board even postboard, so I can still get Niv of it. I have been adding a Tefeiri Time Raveler and a Nahiri in the Board for grinding matchups, and proactive solution to Blood Moon, they are ok. Nahiri is a bit cluncky as a Wish target game 1 since it's hard to tutor for it and play it on the same turn. About the 5 mana split, I prefer 3 1 because of cards like Spell Pierce, Stubborn Denial, Negate postboard, etc... That have been game over against the sorcery. I have been taking it out against Death's Shadow, Merfolks, as an example. I also don't have many good other targets for it except than Niv.
It's true my deck wins mostly to the number of bloodbraid elves you draw, and resolving niv. I will probably hedge by removing some or all the Birds, adding 1 trophy, maybe bolt, sculler or some more coiling oracles (probably try to go turn 1 breeding pool or watery grave if i run oracles). I feel like I cannot afford to play wish anymore anymore if I cut the birds. I tried a few caryatids as well and they were bad. Maybe Knight of the Reliquary is playable, although there should be some special lands to fetch, and I can only see 1 or 2 manlands.
As for your list, I wonder if it's not too hard to cast Niv, unless you keep hitting with Grim Flayer 3 turns in a row. Only 1 electrolyze to draw does not seem enough but I did not check your mana enough to figure it, maybe you can add a land, but in a way it's also super hard to curve 1 through 5, so draw spells (you probably cannot take a turn out ramping)would help even if you cast Niv on 6 or 7. Kitchen finks don't do much I feel, they are not focused enough so it's hard to rely on having 3 (electrolyze is decent as well against aggro). At least 1 should be a Knight of Autumn which helps against about 100 techs, especially the bad ones like random Worships, Platinum Empirion you did not even imagine your opponent could have. Even if you have many ways to deal with these techs, you may not have them in hand, and Knights remains a proactive card anyway. Also, isn't Sin Collector a bit narrow? I have been liking Kambal in some obvious matchups but it's not bad to bring against death shadow, uw control, etc... as well, unless you already have enough cards for these matchups.
I don't see the point in hitting borderpost with Niv, same for Safewright Quest. it feels cluncky and not adding anything to the manabase. Better play farseek, birds, etc if you need to ramp.
I have been replacing 2 Growth Spiral by Coiling Oracles. Not sure what's the best but I was not hitting enough lands with Growth Spiral, and I don't want to go over 25 lands. I'll try unamoored ego in the sb for Tron. It's a good target for Glittering wish.
All the fetches get basics of the main colors (green or black), and the other lands they can fetch are of a secondary color, so you have access to almost all of the colors with each of them if you can affors to shock or have your land enter the battlefield tapped. There are 15 lands to cast birds t1 and 14 for the discard spells (I probably should add a black source). Still the mix of fetch may not be optimal and i'll spend some time figuring the probas.
I think you can afford not to run all the 10 duals. I don't have sacred foundry and watery grave.
The manabase has been consistent so far, though maybe there are better ways to build it. Don't hesitate to tell me
Hi guys. This is the version I am playing. I may not hit that many cards as most of your list, but i have been trying to make the deck smooth and consistent:
Sideboard
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom pulse
1 Lightning helix
1 Assassin's trophy
2 Rest in peace
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Firespout
1 Kambal
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Bring to Light
notes:
25 lands and 4 birds because i like to cast several spells after I resolve Niv, and missing the first landrops is terrible. I also put some discard since I feel it's important to interact on turn 1. So Niv will draw me 3 on average, which ain't much I know...
the 2 Glittering Wish in the main can obviously search for precise reactive spells but also for Bring to Light, which basically let you have access to your whole maindeck (though it generally tutors for Niv). It's a pretty cool tech. I don't think I need more wishes because of the tempo loss, and you already have solutions in the main. The tempo loss is also neglected by Bloodbraid elf. You always leave 1 BTL in the board game 2 and 3 so that you have a good target for Glittering wish and you can bring the hate cards in the maindeck. You can also leave a 2 or 3 mana universal card in the board like Trophy or Maelstrom pulse to fetch and cast before turn 5 but I am not sure and it probably depends of the matchup.
no counterspells because I am playing Bloodbraid and I feel that Niv is better in a proactive shell.
some cards like reflector Mage and Kembal are a bit suspect. Also not sure Firespout is that good because I have plenty of Spot removal and it's often cluncky (plus it kills my birds). Maybe Supreme Verditc id better and not too hard to cast (although double white...).
I don't know if I can have a plan against Blood Moon yet, or just avoid it and lose to it. I have not played against the card yet. I set on 3 basics (black, green, and white, which probably should be blue) yet and maybe could have a Wear/Tear in the side.
As for the Bring to Light targets, I did not find good 4 and 5 except for Niv and Bloodbraid. Primal Command is nothing special if we cannot loop it i feel. I have been trying Obzedat but it was pretty bad and hard to cast. You guys have any idea (even non multicolor cards) for BTL targets?
I was trying to give a plan b because only focusing on Genesis Wave is not going to make it. Lord Darkview, to answer your point, let me give you my opinion about the card Primal Command and the Devotion deck in general.
I know Primal Command is a bit slow. I disagree with the toolbox aspect. You mainly need witnesses, a 6 drop in case you cannot curve witness into Command the turn after, and probably a finisher like craterhoof. You have to rely on the loop. It's too expensive to be a toolbox card, it has to be a kill. The toolbox card is Summoner's Pact, but it has targets that are bad most of the time (underpowered or niche cards, plus echo), and Curdbros probably doesn't have enough slots to play it anyway... I played Green Devotion a lot and an important thing I learned is that Primal Command helps you to deal with so many random cards or diverse strategies, that could not be solved otherwise. How would you beat Tron or Ad Nauseam (the examples I stated last post) without Primal Command? Not by Pacting into something random anyway because if they have an answer for it you lose if they go off the turn after when you time walk yourself by paying the echo. Every time I played without Primal Command, I often lost to some bad random decks because I had no solution or nothing to do. It's probably a bit cluncky, not the best Magic card ever, but it's just the best or 2nd best (with coco) plan green devotion has generally. Oh, and it prevents you from flooding in your ramp deck.
So that was my justification about Primal Command. Hope it's good enough because there is generally nothing better in Green dev. By the way, I replayed Anthony's last list (the whole 75) and it's been terrible for me. Unless you predict super accurately the metagame (easy in modern), I don't see it because you are playing so many bad cards (most walkers and big dudes). First, you lose to every random strategy. Then the sideboard recognizes the fact that the maindeck is a slower combo deck than most other ones without consistent interaction (ok, maybe it wants a few more interaction postboard) since it's playing reactive cards like rest in peace, blood moon, etc, and even cards that shouldn't be there like 6 mana Flames of the Firebrand (Bolt or Path are legal), Worship to steal games where you know your deck is bad and you hope they don't have cards like Nature's Claim or whatever disruption they should bring in anyway postboard... That's my experience, and please, in advance, don't try to explain me that Pacting for Thrun, the Last Troll, is a powerful play against blue white control, or Acdic Slime against Tron, etc... Even Primeval Titan is too slow most of the time, and feels like a Colossal Dreadmaw when you pact for it because you won't be able to use Nykthos or Kessig the turn after due to the echo. Primal Command is just better than these cards most of the time and you don't have to play so many bad cards in your deck that will sit in your hand and won't do anything in wrong matchups, and won't always win in the correct ones (correct ones being 20% at most I think). Note that PC could also stand as a good amount of the sideboard slots in the list.
I wanted to justify myself because if the argument is that modern is hyperlinear, you're wrong playing green devotion, just play another deck. It's not the fastest combo deck, it's often cluncky, and it has no great interaction maindeck. It's slower(but slightly more resilient) than most other combo decks, that's it. It's wrong most of the time not to play Primal Command. It's a hedge against many strategies and a kill as well, even though it's a bit slow I agree. You can find it's bad, but replacing it with other cards in your devotion deck because the format is linear is going to be wrong 80% of the time because they will be individually weaker, and won't provide robust solutions as they are supposed to. If my opponent is playing Tron and I am on the draw, how do I survive except hoping they don't have Tron on 3 and having Primal Command on my turn 3? How do you deal with bridges, etc? The Acidic Slime solution is bad because it's too weak of a clock, and you may not draw another big card in your ramp deck to close the game (or maybe the wrong and underpowered big card that doesn't do anything). That's my theory at least. Maybe Primal Command is not great, but there isn't something more consistent to do anyway in your devotion deck on turn 3.
Despite all these arguments, I can see Primal Command not belonging to your deck Curdbros :), it's true that it may not be at its best here (maybe you can adapt the list for it?). Being all in on hoping your walker survives and playing Genesis Wave seems too narrow. I feel like the deck needs more cards to win, you only have 4 (plus Titan maybe, and possibly Garruk's overrun). Also, not playing Burning Tree in Green Devotion feels avoiding some of the best draws, though maybe you don't have enough double devotion at 2 or 3 to leverage it. And you still need a solution against other combo decks because you should be too slow most of the time on the draw.
Primal Command is ok but it reduces the Oath of Nissa and Kiora hits, so top decks Oath of Nissa have often been bad. Another issue is you don't have craterhoof because it may not be instant kill when you combo with genesis wave. So I kept playing Primal Command/Witnesses but could not always win, and would not have witnesses after for when I topdecked Genesis Wave to win for sure. One solution could be to reduce the number of PCs, but the deck would still need some amount of disruption since it's not the fastest or the most consistent. Integrating Woodland Bellower in the Primal Command loop could be good because you would have a real clock while Time Walking, plus some other disruption or interaction like Reclamation Sage / Knight of Autumn. Finding Knight of the Reliquary's never bad as well, maybe even burning Tree if you hit Bellower of a wave although maybe you don't need 2 more mana. Another disruption card is Friend to Wolves, but I wonder if he's not too midrangish most of the time. I fell the Kiora, Master... minus was a bit disappointing. The three mana one seems better, although she does nothing except mana (can sometimes draw 2 with Bellower into Knight OTR). So there's a balance to find.
I was wondering as well if elvish visionaries shouldn't be utopia sprawls, because drawing for G is pretty cool. There are several reasons elvish visionary is still probably better; can be found with Oath and Kiora, you have more creatures than enchents so maybe it's slightly harder to have several enchents with curio at the same time, it helps to chord, and another reason I forgot. It's easy though to go 3 mana Kiora into Abundant Growth. So i don't know about which one to play or what split to make.
This is the Curio Combo I played after a few matches.
21 lands including a Gavony (I have not tried Blast Zone)
4 Arbor Elf, 4 Utopia S., 3 Birds, 4 Oath of Nissa
4 Burning Tree Emissary
3 Eternal Witness, 2 Kiora Behemoth, 1 Cloudstone Curio
3 Garruk, 1 Kiora Master
3 Primal Command, 1 Acidic Slime
1 Hornet Queen
4 Genesis Wave, 1 Finale of Devastation (no Dryad Arbor with only one Finale)
I tried to make the mana producers cheaper in general because I believe you are often forced to play the first Genesis Wave for x equals 3 or 4 and cheap mana maybe helps you to play it for 1 more and you also have a slight more chance with more witnesses and bte to redo it in the same turn (and get about the same number of mana or even more if you Genesis Wave again, especially with Bte). The odds of this scenario occuring may not be that much more significant in practice. I lowered the planeswalkers/ curio count because I feel that the odds to keep going after Genesis Wave are about the same as I said, and the Curio aspect should be more to perform a strict combo, and it's so bad having it in your hand. At some point you bring back Finale from your graveyard with witness and you probably don't even need Hornet Queen.
I have been losing to other combo decks like tron or Ad Nauseam because I could not interact on turn 3. Either i did not have Genesis Wave or I could not produce a relevant one. So I added Primal Commands as a way to interact and another engine for the deck. Maybe you have an idea about another plan b... But having interaction is important especially on the draw, and as for me, I am not in love with most big creatures. I removed Titan which I found was not necessary although maybe searching for nykthos and untapping it in the same turn is necessary a good amount of the time. Maybe Hornet Queen should be 4th Primal Command or Witness, maybe it's good to have access to a big dude to defend the board...
I find that the coco version probably has access to more solutions regarding these matchups, like fulminator mage, maindeck reclamation sage, and access to cheaper ways to combo. Are you planning to make a video to prove me that I am wrong ?
I played 2 matchs with the curio combo deck. It's a ton of fun and I like the numbers. I understand the logic more than when i took about 1 minute to look at the list. So i basically understand that you want to have garruk and kiora, master of depth, as well as curio and Nykthos to produce inifinite mana and dig through the whole deck to find a creature to kill or a witness to find a spell to kill. I could do it a few times and laughed a lot
However the issue with clicking is real, sadly. Killing 5 lands with Acidic Slime took me about 8 minutes. It's possible that you just want to accomplish less efficient combo that are easier to do just because it saves you time online, as maybe you will want to give up with the deck.
I obviously have to practice a bit more with the deck to really know, because again, i believe you spent a lot of time and it's really precise. One change I immediatly made though was adding another Breeding Pool because I feel like you may not want to name blue in the first few times with utopia sprawl and people play a lot of field of ruins and ghost quarters, etc...
Also, to save time, maybe you want to have a few more 2 3 mana double devotion cards (or even 1 more Birds). By the way, the kill should probably be Walking Ballista but it's too much clicking. The only card I did not have was Blast Zone and I put a Gavony, which was helpful at pumping my bees and that I could activate several times with the untap ability. I don't really get the chord of calling since it's expensive and i believe you already need too many cards together to add another overcosted tutor. Finale of Devastation could be a fast way to win if you search for Hornet Queen adn a possible 2 mana play.
I am not in love with the Elvish Visionaries so far, I don't think they do enough. I'd probably replace them with a mix of mana (like Burning Tree, maybe try Lotus Cobra and see if in combination with Witness, the first wave can be followed by a 2nd in the same turn, though maybe the 3 mana Kiora is a better cobra) and cards that win if I don't find Genesis Wave, although they probably should be creatures because of Kiora minus.
You probably played 500 more games with the deck and you may wonder why the h... am I giving you thoughts on a 1 hour basis. But anyway, I'll keep playing with it because it's quite fun.
Hey Curdbros. I remember Michel Jacobs was using Genesis Wave to set up the Primal Command lock, with Eternal Witness. That probably means you need 2 more witnesses and two to 4 Primal commands, and probably craterhoof, if you try this approach. I feel it would increase the odds to win the turn you play G wave. You probably want the Kessig or Gavony, which I found to be way worse though, as a plan b as well (and playing 22 lands is fine). Also, maybe 4 Genesis Wave is a bit greedy no, since having several in your opening hand is so bad? Maybe having 1 or 2 more witnesses over visionaries helps you to set up a "value" Genesis Wave if you have nothing to do for x equals 3 or 4 since let's say if you hit witness and a land (and bin the other 1 or 2 cards), you still get devotion and a play for the next turn. 1 selkie or courser could replace another visionary since you don't have that many 3 drops. It's possible I undervalue the Shaman elf and it's just easier to sneak in with Garruk and Kiora the turn you play them and untap.
It should be nice if you try Magic Online. Maybe you can not buy the fetches first if you are not sure how you like the program and get the deck for about 20 ticks (that's an estimation, I don't precisely know), then if you enjoy it buy them and maybe some other expensive sideboard slots you need. Eager to see a video of your deck. As for the clicking, you probably want to learn the hotkeys, mainly f6, and have stops only at useful steps (upkeep and draw not necessary, so is beginning of your combat, their mainphase, etc... if you need them once in a game, because let's say you want to kill their rabblemaster before their begin combat, or ghost quarter the tron on their draw, you can manually put them and remove them right after).
Given that I had bad results with the Pact devotion deck that I have been building and trying, I played with Anthony's most recent lists I found to understand the precise logic. The results were not convincing so I probably won't stick with these versions.
I did not have good results with the deck. I pacted for Titan and lost to a blinkmoth nexus, I pacted for Tolsimir to kill a lord and lost to random merfolks of the vial... Pact is obviously good with cards that win, or Burning Tree to cast cards that win of your hand, but if you have nothing to do and are behind, your still going to cast it and it's not easy to stabilize in 2 turns. You should not be able to use Nykthos as you have paid for the Pact in the upkeep. The Primeval Titan becomes a sort of value play oftentimes... I have been liking the bellower option since you can replicate Titan with Knight (and have 2 big blockers), or blow up an artifact/enchent with the other knight. Could search for ooze, finks, or witness if you play Primal Command as well. Also, planeswalkers feel terrible when you play against creature decks and things don't line up well (also have BTE and Nykthos and a big spell to play). How would you keep the planeswalker around against so many matchups?
It's possible that I have not built the deck correctly (or taken the correct lines) so I probably should retry a version close to the expert, Anthony, and then see if the new cards fit. Also I am not used to his sideboard so that's asking a lot of efforts and about 50 ticks to find the cards I don't have. By the way, I noticed he has Chameleon Colossus on 4 which seems the best option.
I have found it too hard to fight with Domri and not trade your dork so i'll probably cut him. He's terrible when your behind, like Kiora, so maybe that's asking you to go all in on the 1 3 6 curve (play lots of 1 drops mana guys so you still have something to do the turn you play him) if you want to keep him in the deck, and not play too many oaths of nissa since you would still not have more than 3 dev. Now the deck still has access to a "removal" with Tolsimir.
I developped my build/cards choices enough in what I believe a technical way and did not get a clear answer (to me) from you guys about them or other devotion versions of green devotion. Are you guys playing on Mtgo or respectable tournaments so that we can talk about tight plays and technologies? Curdbros, you should invest 100 or 200 box so that we can have a real debate here.
By the way, i added 2 tribes in my deck and am looking forward to play a few leagues. Phoenix being "banned" and stoneforge mystic coming back may help the deck to be viable again.
I have been trying Jadelight Ranger over Courser of Kruphix. Courser is generally better than Jadelight over the long run, but I was thinking that the ability to dig could help the deck to be slightly faster, and pitching cards with Jadelight, thus not doing card advantage, would not be that much of a disadvantage since i was looking for precise cards(like coco, primal command). However, I feel like the deck is not consistent enough and as a result, it's probably often better to sit behind the courser waiting to draw something(plus there's a great synergy with fetches and the Knight if you are lucky to have both in play). I have then been trying 1 Yavimaya Dryad over a Courser and it seemed good. With 21 lands, I often brick and if my mana guys die, I still have a good amount of lands, plus the upside is not too bad since it provides 2 devotion and searches for a land.
By the way, I noticed there are some cards in the Collected Company that you would much prefer to hit off the Coco than play from your hand. Fauna Shaman as an example is cluncky since she does not do much at first (only Craterhoof as a target, and Knight if you have nothing to do, Bellower sometimes, sb slots), and does not do any mana or relevant devotion. It's good if you hit it of Company but hard to integrate in the curve from your hand. Wistful Selkie was a bit the same, because she costs GGG and the draw's not always impactful. I suspect the new GGG elf is suffering the same problem, since it is fragile as well. Given that the chances playing cards of your hand versus hitting them of the coco is about 70/30, I am not that confident about him for my deck. Still, given its upside, I'll try him and will probably be suprised.
Thanks Curdbros for taking care about the forum despite MtgSalvation being about to close (why are they by the way?)
I don't really see Wild Growth being reprented. It would probably make the deck (and others, who knows) too consistent.
I wonder if you often have enough lands in the graveyard for Wrenn and Six. I have 8 fetches in my graveyard and often have to play vanilla witness just to develop my board or increase my devotion on turn 2. It's probably a worse witness.
By the way, Eladamri's call seems worth trying as well. I wonder how you can effectively use it...
I may try the Karn version, but I have been losing a bit last weeks with my brews and don't have many ticks available
Again, I encourage you to record a few videos if you have access to Mtgo.
1/ I agree with what you said regarding the bird. I was thinking it would be better against decks like tron, add nauseam, etc... but probably worse against decks with cheap spot removals, and it also affects the way you fetch so sometimes having it killed is even worse for you mana I noticed. Still it's possible that it's better to have it against humans or spirits just because you can play niv or bloodbraid elf a turn faster. I can afford to take them out against wu control but not against decks like jund where I don't have good enough sb slots. By the way, I have enmoored ego and crumble to dust which seem redundant (where would you bring unmoored ego except against Tron?). Also I removed a trophy from the main since decks often use the mana I am giving them but removing birds and keeping 2 trophies main may keep the Tron mu favorable (I have been winning a lot against them).
2/ I am not a big fan of Grim Flayer and Sygg because you have to work for them. They aren't very good Magic Cards I feel. It's sure they seem better in your list because you have more cheap removals to trigger them. I agree on the manabase and reworked mine because it had issues. Still it's not perfect (coiling oracle which i like better than growth spiral and helix on 2).
4/ 5/ Glittering wish is often cluncky that's right especially in game 2 where you don't keep impactful slots against some matchup. The tempo loss can be offset by Bloodbraid. It's probably too cute. Note I keep the 5 mana UG spell in the board even postboard, so I can still get Niv of it. I have been adding a Tefeiri Time Raveler and a Nahiri in the Board for grinding matchups, and proactive solution to Blood Moon, they are ok. Nahiri is a bit cluncky as a Wish target game 1 since it's hard to tutor for it and play it on the same turn. About the 5 mana split, I prefer 3 1 because of cards like Spell Pierce, Stubborn Denial, Negate postboard, etc... That have been game over against the sorcery. I have been taking it out against Death's Shadow, Merfolks, as an example. I also don't have many good other targets for it except than Niv.
It's true my deck wins mostly to the number of bloodbraid elves you draw, and resolving niv. I will probably hedge by removing some or all the Birds, adding 1 trophy, maybe bolt, sculler or some more coiling oracles (probably try to go turn 1 breeding pool or watery grave if i run oracles). I feel like I cannot afford to play wish anymore anymore if I cut the birds. I tried a few caryatids as well and they were bad. Maybe Knight of the Reliquary is playable, although there should be some special lands to fetch, and I can only see 1 or 2 manlands.
As for your list, I wonder if it's not too hard to cast Niv, unless you keep hitting with Grim Flayer 3 turns in a row. Only 1 electrolyze to draw does not seem enough but I did not check your mana enough to figure it, maybe you can add a land, but in a way it's also super hard to curve 1 through 5, so draw spells (you probably cannot take a turn out ramping)would help even if you cast Niv on 6 or 7. Kitchen finks don't do much I feel, they are not focused enough so it's hard to rely on having 3 (electrolyze is decent as well against aggro). At least 1 should be a Knight of Autumn which helps against about 100 techs, especially the bad ones like random Worships, Platinum Empirion you did not even imagine your opponent could have. Even if you have many ways to deal with these techs, you may not have them in hand, and Knights remains a proactive card anyway. Also, isn't Sin Collector a bit narrow? I have been liking Kambal in some obvious matchups but it's not bad to bring against death shadow, uw control, etc... as well, unless you already have enough cards for these matchups.
I have been replacing 2 Growth Spiral by Coiling Oracles. Not sure what's the best but I was not hitting enough lands with Growth Spiral, and I don't want to go over 25 lands. I'll try unamoored ego in the sb for Tron. It's a good target for Glittering wish.
4 Pillar of the Paruns
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Blood crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Steam vents
1 Stomping ground
1 Temple garden
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
2 Marsh flats
2 Misty rainforest
2 Windswept heath
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted delta
All the fetches get basics of the main colors (green or black), and the other lands they can fetch are of a secondary color, so you have access to almost all of the colors with each of them if you can affors to shock or have your land enter the battlefield tapped. There are 15 lands to cast birds t1 and 14 for the discard spells (I probably should add a black source). Still the mix of fetch may not be optimal and i'll spend some time figuring the probas.
I think you can afford not to run all the 10 duals. I don't have sacred foundry and watery grave.
The manabase has been consistent so far, though maybe there are better ways to build it. Don't hesitate to tell me
25 lands
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
1 Thought erasure
1 Izzet Charm
1 Dreadbore
2 Assassin's trophy
3 Lightning Helix
2 Glittering Wish
2 Growth Spiral
1 Kambal, Consul...
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Knight of Autumn
1 Detention Sphere
1 Electrolyze
1 Reflector Mage
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Niv
1 Bring to Light
Sideboard
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom pulse
1 Lightning helix
1 Assassin's trophy
2 Rest in peace
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Firespout
1 Kambal
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Bring to Light
notes:
25 lands and 4 birds because i like to cast several spells after I resolve Niv, and missing the first landrops is terrible. I also put some discard since I feel it's important to interact on turn 1. So Niv will draw me 3 on average, which ain't much I know...
the 2 Glittering Wish in the main can obviously search for precise reactive spells but also for Bring to Light, which basically let you have access to your whole maindeck (though it generally tutors for Niv). It's a pretty cool tech. I don't think I need more wishes because of the tempo loss, and you already have solutions in the main. The tempo loss is also neglected by Bloodbraid elf. You always leave 1 BTL in the board game 2 and 3 so that you have a good target for Glittering wish and you can bring the hate cards in the maindeck. You can also leave a 2 or 3 mana universal card in the board like Trophy or Maelstrom pulse to fetch and cast before turn 5 but I am not sure and it probably depends of the matchup.
no counterspells because I am playing Bloodbraid and I feel that Niv is better in a proactive shell.
some cards like reflector Mage and Kembal are a bit suspect. Also not sure Firespout is that good because I have plenty of Spot removal and it's often cluncky (plus it kills my birds). Maybe Supreme Verditc id better and not too hard to cast (although double white...).
I don't know if I can have a plan against Blood Moon yet, or just avoid it and lose to it. I have not played against the card yet. I set on 3 basics (black, green, and white, which probably should be blue) yet and maybe could have a Wear/Tear in the side.
As for the Bring to Light targets, I did not find good 4 and 5 except for Niv and Bloodbraid. Primal Command is nothing special if we cannot loop it i feel. I have been trying Obzedat but it was pretty bad and hard to cast. You guys have any idea (even non multicolor cards) for BTL targets?
I know Primal Command is a bit slow. I disagree with the toolbox aspect. You mainly need witnesses, a 6 drop in case you cannot curve witness into Command the turn after, and probably a finisher like craterhoof. You have to rely on the loop. It's too expensive to be a toolbox card, it has to be a kill. The toolbox card is Summoner's Pact, but it has targets that are bad most of the time (underpowered or niche cards, plus echo), and Curdbros probably doesn't have enough slots to play it anyway... I played Green Devotion a lot and an important thing I learned is that Primal Command helps you to deal with so many random cards or diverse strategies, that could not be solved otherwise. How would you beat Tron or Ad Nauseam (the examples I stated last post) without Primal Command? Not by Pacting into something random anyway because if they have an answer for it you lose if they go off the turn after when you time walk yourself by paying the echo. Every time I played without Primal Command, I often lost to some bad random decks because I had no solution or nothing to do. It's probably a bit cluncky, not the best Magic card ever, but it's just the best or 2nd best (with coco) plan green devotion has generally. Oh, and it prevents you from flooding in your ramp deck.
So that was my justification about Primal Command. Hope it's good enough because there is generally nothing better in Green dev. By the way, I replayed Anthony's last list (the whole 75) and it's been terrible for me. Unless you predict super accurately the metagame (easy in modern), I don't see it because you are playing so many bad cards (most walkers and big dudes). First, you lose to every random strategy. Then the sideboard recognizes the fact that the maindeck is a slower combo deck than most other ones without consistent interaction (ok, maybe it wants a few more interaction postboard) since it's playing reactive cards like rest in peace, blood moon, etc, and even cards that shouldn't be there like 6 mana Flames of the Firebrand (Bolt or Path are legal), Worship to steal games where you know your deck is bad and you hope they don't have cards like Nature's Claim or whatever disruption they should bring in anyway postboard... That's my experience, and please, in advance, don't try to explain me that Pacting for Thrun, the Last Troll, is a powerful play against blue white control, or Acdic Slime against Tron, etc... Even Primeval Titan is too slow most of the time, and feels like a Colossal Dreadmaw when you pact for it because you won't be able to use Nykthos or Kessig the turn after due to the echo. Primal Command is just better than these cards most of the time and you don't have to play so many bad cards in your deck that will sit in your hand and won't do anything in wrong matchups, and won't always win in the correct ones (correct ones being 20% at most I think). Note that PC could also stand as a good amount of the sideboard slots in the list.
I wanted to justify myself because if the argument is that modern is hyperlinear, you're wrong playing green devotion, just play another deck. It's not the fastest combo deck, it's often cluncky, and it has no great interaction maindeck. It's slower(but slightly more resilient) than most other combo decks, that's it. It's wrong most of the time not to play Primal Command. It's a hedge against many strategies and a kill as well, even though it's a bit slow I agree. You can find it's bad, but replacing it with other cards in your devotion deck because the format is linear is going to be wrong 80% of the time because they will be individually weaker, and won't provide robust solutions as they are supposed to. If my opponent is playing Tron and I am on the draw, how do I survive except hoping they don't have Tron on 3 and having Primal Command on my turn 3? How do you deal with bridges, etc? The Acidic Slime solution is bad because it's too weak of a clock, and you may not draw another big card in your ramp deck to close the game (or maybe the wrong and underpowered big card that doesn't do anything). That's my theory at least. Maybe Primal Command is not great, but there isn't something more consistent to do anyway in your devotion deck on turn 3.
Despite all these arguments, I can see Primal Command not belonging to your deck Curdbros :), it's true that it may not be at its best here (maybe you can adapt the list for it?). Being all in on hoping your walker survives and playing Genesis Wave seems too narrow. I feel like the deck needs more cards to win, you only have 4 (plus Titan maybe, and possibly Garruk's overrun). Also, not playing Burning Tree in Green Devotion feels avoiding some of the best draws, though maybe you don't have enough double devotion at 2 or 3 to leverage it. And you still need a solution against other combo decks because you should be too slow most of the time on the draw.
This is the Curio Combo I played after a few matches.
21 lands including a Gavony (I have not tried Blast Zone)
4 Arbor Elf, 4 Utopia S., 3 Birds, 4 Oath of Nissa
4 Burning Tree Emissary
3 Eternal Witness, 2 Kiora Behemoth, 1 Cloudstone Curio
3 Garruk, 1 Kiora Master
3 Primal Command, 1 Acidic Slime
1 Hornet Queen
4 Genesis Wave, 1 Finale of Devastation (no Dryad Arbor with only one Finale)
I tried to make the mana producers cheaper in general because I believe you are often forced to play the first Genesis Wave for x equals 3 or 4 and cheap mana maybe helps you to play it for 1 more and you also have a slight more chance with more witnesses and bte to redo it in the same turn (and get about the same number of mana or even more if you Genesis Wave again, especially with Bte). The odds of this scenario occuring may not be that much more significant in practice. I lowered the planeswalkers/ curio count because I feel that the odds to keep going after Genesis Wave are about the same as I said, and the Curio aspect should be more to perform a strict combo, and it's so bad having it in your hand. At some point you bring back Finale from your graveyard with witness and you probably don't even need Hornet Queen.
I have been losing to other combo decks like tron or Ad Nauseam because I could not interact on turn 3. Either i did not have Genesis Wave or I could not produce a relevant one. So I added Primal Commands as a way to interact and another engine for the deck. Maybe you have an idea about another plan b... But having interaction is important especially on the draw, and as for me, I am not in love with most big creatures. I removed Titan which I found was not necessary although maybe searching for nykthos and untapping it in the same turn is necessary a good amount of the time. Maybe Hornet Queen should be 4th Primal Command or Witness, maybe it's good to have access to a big dude to defend the board...
I find that the coco version probably has access to more solutions regarding these matchups, like fulminator mage, maindeck reclamation sage, and access to cheaper ways to combo. Are you planning to make a video to prove me that I am wrong ?
However the issue with clicking is real, sadly. Killing 5 lands with Acidic Slime took me about 8 minutes. It's possible that you just want to accomplish less efficient combo that are easier to do just because it saves you time online, as maybe you will want to give up with the deck.
I obviously have to practice a bit more with the deck to really know, because again, i believe you spent a lot of time and it's really precise. One change I immediatly made though was adding another Breeding Pool because I feel like you may not want to name blue in the first few times with utopia sprawl and people play a lot of field of ruins and ghost quarters, etc...
Also, to save time, maybe you want to have a few more 2 3 mana double devotion cards (or even 1 more Birds). By the way, the kill should probably be Walking Ballista but it's too much clicking. The only card I did not have was Blast Zone and I put a Gavony, which was helpful at pumping my bees and that I could activate several times with the untap ability. I don't really get the chord of calling since it's expensive and i believe you already need too many cards together to add another overcosted tutor. Finale of Devastation could be a fast way to win if you search for Hornet Queen adn a possible 2 mana play.
I am not in love with the Elvish Visionaries so far, I don't think they do enough. I'd probably replace them with a mix of mana (like Burning Tree, maybe try Lotus Cobra and see if in combination with Witness, the first wave can be followed by a 2nd in the same turn, though maybe the 3 mana Kiora is a better cobra) and cards that win if I don't find Genesis Wave, although they probably should be creatures because of Kiora minus.
You probably played 500 more games with the deck and you may wonder why the h... am I giving you thoughts on a 1 hour basis. But anyway, I'll keep playing with it because it's quite fun.
It should be nice if you try Magic Online. Maybe you can not buy the fetches first if you are not sure how you like the program and get the deck for about 20 ticks (that's an estimation, I don't precisely know), then if you enjoy it buy them and maybe some other expensive sideboard slots you need. Eager to see a video of your deck. As for the clicking, you probably want to learn the hotkeys, mainly f6, and have stops only at useful steps (upkeep and draw not necessary, so is beginning of your combat, their mainphase, etc... if you need them once in a game, because let's say you want to kill their rabblemaster before their begin combat, or ghost quarter the tron on their draw, you can manually put them and remove them right after).
Given that I had bad results with the Pact devotion deck that I have been building and trying, I played with Anthony's most recent lists I found to understand the precise logic. The results were not convincing so I probably won't stick with these versions.
It's possible that I have not built the deck correctly (or taken the correct lines) so I probably should retry a version close to the expert, Anthony, and then see if the new cards fit. Also I am not used to his sideboard so that's asking a lot of efforts
I have found it too hard to fight with Domri and not trade your dork so i'll probably cut him. He's terrible when your behind, like Kiora, so maybe that's asking you to go all in on the 1 3 6 curve (play lots of 1 drops mana guys so you still have something to do the turn you play him) if you want to keep him in the deck, and not play too many oaths of nissa since you would still not have more than 3 dev. Now the deck still has access to a "removal" with Tolsimir.