Thermopod not instead of Altar, but in addition to it. Altar is so good in that deck, wouldn't you want another, even if it's worse? Or maybe you don't, idk. I haven't played the deck; it's just a card to discuss that I haven't seen mentioned yet. It could be a good as a budget substitute if nothing else, as Phyrexian Altar is like $30, I think. I'm not sure how you got the impression that I was suggesting Thermopod is better than Phyrexian Altar; it's obviously a lot worse.
Drillmaster vs Hammer -- The only downside is that drillmaster won't give all the tokens haste, which is worse if you intend to attack, but Jay has said he doesn't need more aggro support; he even cut Ogre Battledriver. For giving Krenko haste, Drillmaster is just better than Hammer. Yes you can use Hammer the turn in comes into play, but in what scenario are you casting Hammer and Krenko in the same turn, in a deck with zero ramp that tries to win quickly? That takes 7 mana, or 9...there are altars for ramp, but those don't do much if you don't already have Krenko out. In the opening hand, do you want turn 3 Drillmaster or turn 3 Hammer? Drillmaster dies to common creature removal, but if I'm happy if they use their Swords to Plowshares on Drillmaster, instead of saving it for Krenko. But, to be fair, I'd prob be happy if they Nature's Claim my Hammer too, because that clears the way for Staff of Domination or Impact Tremors to live. Drillmaster is worse against board wipes, but so is Goblin Chieftain, and that's not getting cut. Just having an additional goblin during your first activation of Krenko is huge.
Haste enablers are really good with Krenko. There are 7 of them, not including Swiftfoot Boots, Goblin Matron, or Zealous Conscripts (none of those let you activate Krenko on turn 4). How many do you want? I assume you want more, but only if they're good (so, no Mass Hysteria). My instinct would be like 10 or 11, giving you a 55%/59% chance of seeing one by turn 3, if you kept a hand with 3+ lands, as opposed to 42% with 7. But I'm assuming Jay doesn't want any more, either because he thinks the others are bad (as with Mass Hysteria), or redundant. Assuming it's the redundant argument, Hammer is definitely the worst of the ones he IS playing, and I think Akki Drillmaster and Wily Goblin are almost definitely better, and Emblem of the Warmind, Need for Speed, and Bloodlust Inciter might be better, and are worth trying out. And all of these cards are less than 20 cents.
As for the rest of my suggestions, I don't think any of them are better than what he's already playing, at least not with any confidence without testing. But some of them might be, and none were cards I'd seen discussed at all, in a relatively long thread
Hi all! This seems like one of the better threads for a competitive Krenko deck. I read through all the posts, including the changelog, and here are some card ideas I didn't see mentioned by Jay or anyone else:
(this is my first comment on mtgsalvation, so sorry about the formatting if it's bad)
Thermopod -- a five mana Phyrexian Altar. I feel like this deck wants as many as it can get, but it is worse than the other altars Hellraiser Goblin -- global haste enablers that are themselves goblins? This def seems better than Fervor, because it's also a Goblin. There's a drawback, but there are enough sac outlets that I think it's properly mitigated. Also, if anyone has a Propaganda or something out, then you don't have to attack anyone. Akki Drillmaster -- another 3-mana haste enabler that's also a goblin. No drawback here. Aggravated Assault -- another combo enabler for both Krenko and Kiki Emblem of the Warmind, Need for Speed, Bloodlust Inciter, Crimson Wisps -- These are all definitely worse than Ashling's Prerogative, but cheaper than Fervor or Hammer of Purphoros. Would take testing to tell if they're better, but is probably worth taking a look if you haven't. Changeling Berserker -- less good without Moggcatcher, but this also combos with Kiki similar to Lightning Crafter (e.g., Kiki + Berserker + Sledder or Bombardment). You can also use it to untap Krenko if you have a sac outlet and haste enabler. Also decent for protecting against board wipes. Goblin Pyromancer, Goblin Lookout -- a tutorable overrun. It's not better than other aggro effects except for being tutorable. You play Quest for the Goblin Lord and Coat of Arms so it's not like you don't want this effect at all.
Also, if your playgroup is cool with it, there's Mons's Goblin Waiters as a backup Skirk Prospector
Did you test Cloudstone Curio? Haste effect + Curio isn't enough to infinite combo without, but will generate a ton of goblins.
In the primer, all the thornbite staff + sac outlet for mana combos seem to miss the fact that with infinite death triggers and infinite mana, you can ping them to death with Thornbite Staff's first ability -- nothing else necessary.
You also don't mention that with Kiki+Lightning Crafter but no sac outlet, the copies of Crafter can shoot themselves for infinite ETBs and death triggers. And, Kiki+Crafter with no sac outlet is still like 20 targeted damage per turn cycle or something (in a 4-player game, it's 18 the first cycle, 21 each subsequent), just those two cards alone. Various other non sac-outlets increase that. Plus all the other shenanigans you can do with Crafter without Kiki (you actually did mention a couple of them)
I know you tested Mass Hysteria, and you said it's not fun to play it turn 1. What if you just hold it? It's pretty good on turn 3 with a two drop. It also lets you wait till turn five to cast Krenko without losing tempo. Mayb it just requires finesse, until you know what everyone else is playing? Also, dropping it too far in advance of Krenko makes you more of a target and shapes the decisions in turns 1-4 for everyone else. Idk.
I think you might want to give Moggcatcher another shot. It should straight up win you the game like 90% of the time you untap with it with 6 or 7 mana, on the spot. I feel like you must not be playing it right if it's not. My EDH experience with it is a little different, because I'm running it in a BR goblin deck, and have options like Goblin Ringleader, Sensation Gorger, some black goblins, Krenko in the library to fetch, a lot more utility and board control goblins, more cards with "champion", and much more ramp (I try to get to about 9 mana in that deck, as opposed to what looks like 5 or 6 being perfect for Krenko).
The most reliable way on an empty board is to just untap with it and pass. If someone tries to kill it you get Kiki, copy it, then get Changeling Berserker and save it. Otherwise, EoT, get Kiki, copy it, get Goblin Chirurgeon, untap and get Lightning Crafter (using the kiki'd copy from last turn), then win on the spot. If someone has removal, you have Chirurgeon already, but have the original untapped to fetch Changeling Berserker at instant speed to save your Kiki, or just to untap it again for some reason. Alternately, you can EoT Sensation Gorger, (or get Kiki THEN Sensation Gorger), then get Recruiter in response to the upkeep trigger, which allows you to put FIVE goblins from your library into your hand. With enough diversity of options, that lets you really go into a winning position on pretty much any board, even with just 4 or 5 mana available. There's also, as soon as you untap with it, if you think it won't survive, just fetching Recruiter on upkeep and putting Ringleader and four gobbos under it (or 8, if you plan to Kiki). That costs 8 mana (3 to activate, 4 for Ringleader, then 1 for Prospector to keep going), but it's just so powerful...There are so many goblins to fetch, you can almost always find a set of 5 to put you in a winning position, at least for the following turn.
Lastly, did you try out Wily Goblin? In your opening hand, it's better than Hammer of Purphoros, and on par Goblin Warchief (although worse later on)
Turn 2 Wily Goblin
Turn 3 Krenko
Turn 4, make a play, then make at least 2 goblins
Turn 5, make another play, then make at least 4 goblins
Turn 3 Hammer
Turn 4 Krenko, make a goblin
Turn 5, make a play, make 2+ goblins
Wily Goblin is a full turn faster. Plus, you can keep more hands with it, as it lets you go off with 3 lands as opposed to 4.
Also, just to update, Kiki is like $5-$9 these days, possibly thanks to the impending ICA reprinting, and mayb the metagame in the modern format. No longer $20
Anyway, regardless of these suggestions, I love your writeup at the top of this thread! I'm bookmarking it and will be returning a few times at least! Cheers
Kiki + Crafter + nothing else. Assuming 9 lands, zero board, both in hand, no other cards in hand.
Play Kiki first, then Crafter. Works the same if you played Kiki last turn, or very similar if you played Crafter last turn and Kiki this turn, as long has you had something to champion last turn.
champion trigger on stack, copy crafter
3 to face
exile Kiki to the copy's champion trigger
exile the copy to original's champion trigger, Kiki returns (if you played the crafter on a previous turn, you don't get this first 3 damage this way, but you get the 3 from the original for not being summoning sick instead)
each end of combat, or during 2nd main:
-copy crafter, 3 to face, champion Kiki, EOT, sac copy, Kiki returns
repeat on each player's turn (so 4x)
EOT before your turn, copy Crafter, 3 to face, champion the original crafter*
UNTAP (congrats you just dealt 18 damage)
upkeep, 3 to face with copy
combat, 3 more (you can copy the copy)
EoT, order the sac triggers so the second copy dies first, bringing back Kiki, then first copy dies, bringing back the original crafter
copy it, 3 to face, champion kiki, champion the copy, kiki returns.
3 more each combat, etc.
do that same EOT shenanigans where you champion the original crafter
UNTAP (congrats, you've done 39 damage so far. Hopefully someone is dead by now)
repeat
*you can champion another goblin instead here, if you have one, but it's only better if it has an ETB ability, like Matron, in which case you champion that at the end of turn before you untap. A haste enabler only increases this clock by 3 a turn (so, 21 first turn cycle, then 24). Obv a sac outlet lets you go infinite immediately.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+no other goblins + SEVEN mana = infinite deaths & ETBs, combats, and untaps -- anyone without blockers dies to Prospector attacks. Or with to your Impact Tremors or other enchantments.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+no other goblins + EIGHT mana = infinite tokens and mana (& triggers etc.)
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+1 other goblins + FOUR mana = infinite triggers, etc.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+1 other goblins + FIVE mana = infinite tokens and mana (& triggers etc.)
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+2 other goblins + TWO mana = infinite triggers, etc.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+2 other goblins + THREE mana = infinite tokens and mana (& triggers etc.)
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+3 other goblins + no mana = infinite triggers
obv you can swap Skirk Prospector for Phyrexian Altar or Thermopod + a goblin. Ashnod's Altar does get out of hand with Aggravated Assault, but doesn't go infinite as it requires red mana.
Overall, with or without an Altar effect, this is worse than Sword of the Paruns. Like Paruns, it doubles as an aggro card, but not good on defense like Paruns. But it combos better with Kiki, and is a little different. I'm kinda surprised that you cut Paruns though; I'd imagine you would want more effects like it, not just the two. Although yeah, 10 mana to get Paruns started is a lot.
untap with Kiki + Aggravated Assaulted + Iron Myr + 6 mana to win
Instead of Iron Myr, this also works with
In your experience, how often is Combat Celebrant + Kiki enough to win on its own? If a player has a creature with first strike, indestructible, pro-red (or pro-creatures), or a Ghostly Prison, Fog Bank, Lightning Bolt, Moment's Peace, etc
Drillmaster vs Hammer -- The only downside is that drillmaster won't give all the tokens haste, which is worse if you intend to attack, but Jay has said he doesn't need more aggro support; he even cut Ogre Battledriver. For giving Krenko haste, Drillmaster is just better than Hammer. Yes you can use Hammer the turn in comes into play, but in what scenario are you casting Hammer and Krenko in the same turn, in a deck with zero ramp that tries to win quickly? That takes 7 mana, or 9...there are altars for ramp, but those don't do much if you don't already have Krenko out. In the opening hand, do you want turn 3 Drillmaster or turn 3 Hammer? Drillmaster dies to common creature removal, but if I'm happy if they use their Swords to Plowshares on Drillmaster, instead of saving it for Krenko. But, to be fair, I'd prob be happy if they Nature's Claim my Hammer too, because that clears the way for Staff of Domination or Impact Tremors to live. Drillmaster is worse against board wipes, but so is Goblin Chieftain, and that's not getting cut. Just having an additional goblin during your first activation of Krenko is huge.
Haste enablers are really good with Krenko. There are 7 of them, not including Swiftfoot Boots, Goblin Matron, or Zealous Conscripts (none of those let you activate Krenko on turn 4). How many do you want? I assume you want more, but only if they're good (so, no Mass Hysteria). My instinct would be like 10 or 11, giving you a 55%/59% chance of seeing one by turn 3, if you kept a hand with 3+ lands, as opposed to 42% with 7. But I'm assuming Jay doesn't want any more, either because he thinks the others are bad (as with Mass Hysteria), or redundant. Assuming it's the redundant argument, Hammer is definitely the worst of the ones he IS playing, and I think Akki Drillmaster and Wily Goblin are almost definitely better, and Emblem of the Warmind, Need for Speed, and Bloodlust Inciter might be better, and are worth trying out. And all of these cards are less than 20 cents.
As for the rest of my suggestions, I don't think any of them are better than what he's already playing, at least not with any confidence without testing. But some of them might be, and none were cards I'd seen discussed at all, in a relatively long thread
(this is my first comment on mtgsalvation, so sorry about the formatting if it's bad)
Thermopod -- a five mana Phyrexian Altar. I feel like this deck wants as many as it can get, but it is worse than the other altars
Hellraiser Goblin -- global haste enablers that are themselves goblins? This def seems better than Fervor, because it's also a Goblin. There's a drawback, but there are enough sac outlets that I think it's properly mitigated. Also, if anyone has a Propaganda or something out, then you don't have to attack anyone.
Akki Drillmaster -- another 3-mana haste enabler that's also a goblin. No drawback here.
Aggravated Assault -- another combo enabler for both Krenko and Kiki
Emblem of the Warmind, Need for Speed, Bloodlust Inciter, Crimson Wisps -- These are all definitely worse than Ashling's Prerogative, but cheaper than Fervor or Hammer of Purphoros. Would take testing to tell if they're better, but is probably worth taking a look if you haven't.
Changeling Berserker -- less good without Moggcatcher, but this also combos with Kiki similar to Lightning Crafter (e.g., Kiki + Berserker + Sledder or Bombardment). You can also use it to untap Krenko if you have a sac outlet and haste enabler. Also decent for protecting against board wipes.
Goblin Pyromancer, Goblin Lookout -- a tutorable overrun. It's not better than other aggro effects except for being tutorable. You play Quest for the Goblin Lord and Coat of Arms so it's not like you don't want this effect at all.
Also, if your playgroup is cool with it, there's Mons's Goblin Waiters as a backup Skirk Prospector
I'm having trouble understanding Armillary Sphere. I'd go with Ruby Medallion, Hazoret's Monument/Herald's Horn (which also give card advantage), Sword of the Animist, Pyramid of the Pantheon, or just Iron Myr even. Esp bc Iron Myr gives you more combo options with Kiki and your untap effects
Did you test Cloudstone Curio? Haste effect + Curio isn't enough to infinite combo without, but will generate a ton of goblins.
In the primer, all the thornbite staff + sac outlet for mana combos seem to miss the fact that with infinite death triggers and infinite mana, you can ping them to death with Thornbite Staff's first ability -- nothing else necessary.
You also don't mention that with Kiki+Lightning Crafter but no sac outlet, the copies of Crafter can shoot themselves for infinite ETBs and death triggers. And, Kiki+Crafter with no sac outlet is still like 20 targeted damage per turn cycle or something (in a 4-player game, it's 18 the first cycle, 21 each subsequent), just those two cards alone. Various other non sac-outlets increase that. Plus all the other shenanigans you can do with Crafter without Kiki (you actually did mention a couple of them)
I know you tested Mass Hysteria, and you said it's not fun to play it turn 1. What if you just hold it? It's pretty good on turn 3 with a two drop. It also lets you wait till turn five to cast Krenko without losing tempo. Mayb it just requires finesse, until you know what everyone else is playing? Also, dropping it too far in advance of Krenko makes you more of a target and shapes the decisions in turns 1-4 for everyone else. Idk.
I think you might want to give Moggcatcher another shot. It should straight up win you the game like 90% of the time you untap with it with 6 or 7 mana, on the spot. I feel like you must not be playing it right if it's not. My EDH experience with it is a little different, because I'm running it in a BR goblin deck, and have options like Goblin Ringleader, Sensation Gorger, some black goblins, Krenko in the library to fetch, a lot more utility and board control goblins, more cards with "champion", and much more ramp (I try to get to about 9 mana in that deck, as opposed to what looks like 5 or 6 being perfect for Krenko).
Lastly, did you try out Wily Goblin? In your opening hand, it's better than Hammer of Purphoros, and on par Goblin Warchief (although worse later on)
Turn 3 Krenko
Turn 4, make a play, then make at least 2 goblins
Turn 5, make another play, then make at least 4 goblins
Turn 4 Krenko, make a goblin
Turn 5, make a play, make 2+ goblins
Also, just to update, Kiki is like $5-$9 these days, possibly thanks to the impending ICA reprinting, and mayb the metagame in the modern format. No longer $20
Anyway, regardless of these suggestions, I love your writeup at the top of this thread! I'm bookmarking it and will be returning a few times at least! Cheers
Play Kiki first, then Crafter. Works the same if you played Kiki last turn, or very similar if you played Crafter last turn and Kiki this turn, as long has you had something to champion last turn.
champion trigger on stack, copy crafter
3 to face
exile Kiki to the copy's champion trigger
exile the copy to original's champion trigger, Kiki returns (if you played the crafter on a previous turn, you don't get this first 3 damage this way, but you get the 3 from the original for not being summoning sick instead)
each end of combat, or during 2nd main:
-copy crafter, 3 to face, champion Kiki, EOT, sac copy, Kiki returns
repeat on each player's turn (so 4x)
EOT before your turn, copy Crafter, 3 to face, champion the original crafter*
UNTAP (congrats you just dealt 18 damage)
upkeep, 3 to face with copy
combat, 3 more (you can copy the copy)
EoT, order the sac triggers so the second copy dies first, bringing back Kiki, then first copy dies, bringing back the original crafter
copy it, 3 to face, champion kiki, champion the copy, kiki returns.
3 more each combat, etc.
do that same EOT shenanigans where you champion the original crafter
UNTAP (congrats, you've done 39 damage so far. Hopefully someone is dead by now)
repeat
*you can champion another goblin instead here, if you have one, but it's only better if it has an ETB ability, like Matron, in which case you champion that at the end of turn before you untap. A haste enabler only increases this clock by 3 a turn (so, 21 first turn cycle, then 24). Obv a sac outlet lets you go infinite immediately.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+no other goblins + EIGHT mana = infinite tokens and mana (& triggers etc.)
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+1 other goblins + FOUR mana = infinite triggers, etc.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+1 other goblins + FIVE mana = infinite tokens and mana (& triggers etc.)
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+2 other goblins + TWO mana = infinite triggers, etc.
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+2 other goblins + THREE mana = infinite tokens and mana (& triggers etc.)
Krenko+Aggravated Assault+Skirk Prospector+3 other goblins + no mana = infinite triggers
obv you can swap Skirk Prospector for Phyrexian Altar or Thermopod + a goblin. Ashnod's Altar does get out of hand with Aggravated Assault, but doesn't go infinite as it requires red mana.
Overall, with or without an Altar effect, this is worse than Sword of the Paruns. Like Paruns, it doubles as an aggro card, but not good on defense like Paruns. But it combos better with Kiki, and is a little different. I'm kinda surprised that you cut Paruns though; I'd imagine you would want more effects like it, not just the two. Although yeah, 10 mana to get Paruns started is a lot.
Instead of Iron Myr, this also works with
- Scuttlemutt
- Alloy Myr
- Opaline Unicorn
- Sisters of the Flame
- Conduit of Storms
- Captain Lannery Storm
- Cultivator's Caravan
(+Hill Giant+1 extra mana)Ghitu Encampment(+10 extra mana, but is kinda free to include)
Lotus Guardian
Priest of Urabrask+Mutavault also lets you do it.
That's a complete list of creatures that tap for red that you can play in a mono-red commander deck, as far as I know. These all combo well with Paradox Engine as well. Although the only one that really works with Combat Celebrant is Captain Lannery Storm, because you lose the mana between phases, otherwise.
In your experience, how often is Combat Celebrant + Kiki enough to win on its own? If a player has a creature with first strike, indestructible, pro-red (or pro-creatures), or a Ghostly Prison, Fog Bank, Lightning Bolt, Moment's Peace, etc