If I'm posting on the wrong topic, please let me know, but I think I'm in the right place.
I've always used red strategies on my usual EDH/Commander table (usually me + 3 players), but I've decided to try something new: I've bought a pre-made Selesnya token deck on the internet and I'm currently "fixing it" by myself. I've already made A LOT of changes, but I know there is still a long way to go.
Current deck is listed below, followed by some considerations I've noticed playing with it:
I'm not saying that Emmara Tandris sucks... but she really isn't a good commander. Ok, OK, I've won once or twice because of her, but that is it. There are games I don't even cast her once.
She is really heavy (base CMC 7), gives a FALSE sense of safety (she is one instant away of getting my token creatures killed) and once removed, she starts costing way too much to be worth losing a turn tapping almost all my lands to cast her again (also leaving me without response to stuff on opponent's turns).
I don't have enough money to Trostani, Selesnya's Voice or Rhys the Redeemed, I'm looking for a good Legendary Selesnya creature. Shanna, Sisay's Legacy is cheap and sounds really nice for a change, being really easy to cast and recast. I don't like to rely solely on my commander, but I want them to be viable. Saffi Eriksdotter is REALLY expensive, but sounds awesome, too...
Some of those cards have to leave, like Sandsteppe Mastodon, for example (Bolster sounds useless on a deck full of 1/1 creatures, even if he provides Reach, something I really need). Those are just here because they came with the pre-made deck and I still haven't found anything better to use instead.
Although I have 33 lands, the deck feels overall slow. It is not a matter of how many lands I have, but on how many lands I can drop on the battlefield.
I can only play one land each turn and there are turns where I simply don't have a land on my hand.
I do have cards to fetch lands such as Kodama's Reach, Cultivate and even a Crop Rotation available, but I'm not sure how many of those I should use on the deck. How many of those "fetch lands" are recommended, usually?
I'm not using any Mana rocks. My reasoning was that I barely have any mana to fix (only 2 colors) and I have some really good lands ( Command Tower, or lands that generate both green and white and enters untapped). Removing lands is harder than removing artifacts, so I thought it would be better to use those fetch lands. A friend told me to use some mana rocks, since I can put a land AND the rock on the battlefield on the same turn. What do you think?
Although this is a token deck, I'm feeling my Token generation capabilities aren't what they should be. Aside from Mycoloth and Tendershoot Dryad, all my means of token generation are non-repeteable instants and sorceries (like Advent of the Wurm or Supply // Demand) or cards that drop a lot of tokens, but don't happen that often (like Supply // Demand or Polenbright Wings, which rarely goes unblocked, aside of the first turn I've casted it). Do you have advices on means to create more tokens? I feel that I'm slow to rebuild after a board wipe, for example.
I feel the deck is lacking in overall strategy. I rarely have responses to other people strategies. The whole strategy is: fill the board with an army as fast as I can and try to use one of my win conditions (Triumph of the Hordes, Overrun, Collective Blessing and so on) to win the game. Or build a game presence to not be a target, but also try to not be a threat, until I can kill eveyone else who is alive in one round.
Usually those win-conditions get countered or prevented in any way. Also, I'm Sorcery heavy, so I usually don't end my turn with untapped mana (unless I have token generators such as Selesnya Guildmage. I feel I'm lacking in versatility.
I lack a good board wipe, because there are moments when your game simply sucks. While I do have some cards to deal with spot problems like Swords to Plowshares or Beast Within, I need means to clear the board, precisely when I know I can rebuild fast.
Overall advice is welcome. I've started playing EDH/Commander this year and I think my deck-building skills aren't really good yet. Advices on mana curve, number of cards, cards you consider useless or anything else are all advices that are more than welcome!
Concordant Crossroads is a green way to give all creatures haste (including your opponents' creatures so be careful). To go along with the Torpor Orb suggestion there is also Tocatli Honor Guard. Also, a bunch of Rest in Peace type effects were already listed but there is also Dryad Militant to specifically stop spell recursion. It sounds like this player also relies heavily on tutors, so maybe Aven Mindcensor or Leonin Arbiter to restrict that a bit?
Multiplayers. Usually 4 players, ocasionally 5. The problem is that this player's decks usually are fast at tutoring, so he can have a ton of resources early on to control the whole table when people decide to gang on him.
I can suggest you to overall make your deck more solid: more ramp, more card draw, more continous effect.
If you start an attrition war, you should plan to win by having more resources. If you have ton of mana you can just answer to cyclonic rift by replayng everything. For this reason you should also relay more on permanents than on instants/sorceries for token production.
Sadly this is harder to achieve if your opponent is playing a very competitive deck, especially a combo deck.
I mean, of course my deck can be improved, but it's overall strategy works. I've won quite a few times online with it, and usually when this player is removed from the table, I fare really well. But what can I do if the guy can fetch Cyclonic Rift and Counterspell with 3 mana and repeat it every turn?
When he reaches 7 mana, I'm literally out of the game. He can, as an instant, return all my permanents to my hand. And since I can't attack with haste, he'll do it again next turn. Today, with the deck as It is, I could draw the whole deck and I won't find anything to counter that. And If i had any, it would be countered.
And since he can clone cards with Inalla, Archmage Ritualist or replay it from the graveyard as much as he wants (with a really low mana cost), if every player had one of those, he probably would be able to counter all of them.
Real question is: how much can I hinder my game plan to counter his?
While hard counters might not be all that readily available in your colours, you might want to consider cards that punish control strategies, or outright restrict their ability to play their counters effectively. Stuff like:
Control decks thrive on interaction, so limit their ability to do it. As for Cyclonic Rift, well, you're on your own. Just be sure to not dilute your gameplan too much by adding in anti-control cards.
Don't forget your Carpet of Flowers and Tsunami! If he's playing a deck that is disproportionately more powerful, he deserves all the hate he gets.
Thanks for the input.
I do agree that he deserves the aggro he gets. Also, you raised another really significant issue: How much I want to hinder my game plan to counter his game plan. I don't expect to control him nor the table, but I just don't want to be completely controlled by his deck.
I'm not sure how much I can "add from the sideboard" without actually harming my strategies.
Any thoughts?
I've always been a fan of the Red color, so almost 100% of my decks had Red on it until last month. I've actually bought a Selesnya token deck (Green and White) and I'm having a lot of fun with it.
The problem is: At my usual table (and the only one I play with), one of the players uses A LOT of control decks with blue cards on it and I'm feeling out of options on his hands.
His current "main" deck uses Inalla, Archmage Ritualist as a commander.
Also, he owns a MtG Card Store, a lot of cash and really expensive cards.
He has a lot of tutor cards, which allows him to have whatever card he wants on his hand, for example:
He can cast Spellseeker to tutor Demonic Tutor, clone it with Inalla, Archmage Ritualist to fetch a Counterspell, for example.
And he can also use it again twice using Archaeomancer, also cloning it with Inalla, Archmage Ritualist. Therefore his deck always allow him to have a lot of control all the time.
My major threats are usually dispelled (win-conditions like Triumph of the Hordes, Overrun...), but this isn't even the major problem (he can shoot down one or two win-condition cards, but I can still summon creatures, attack, and so on...). The major problem is Cyclonic Rift.
Once he tutors Cyclonic Rift, I feel that I've lost the game. Without red, I don't have access to Haste, which means I can't cast and attack at the same turn. All my tokens are permanently lost (as the instant and sorceries that created them) and he can do it every turn.
At least red had Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast (which I actually cast from Sunforger, but that is another story).
I'm not interested in adding ANOTHER deck color for this one specific purpose (also losing access to my current commander), but I need to find a way to counter it.
I can't exile his instants (most of exile effects target permanents), If i exile his graveyard he can grab it first as an instant (using Archaeomancer or other cards like that, which he owns) and I can't protect my permanents (Protection against color DUMBLY only protects targetting, not global effects like Cyclonic Rift. Have I mentioned this is dumb?).
I can't find cards to deal with this kind of control, nor green, nor white.
Am I missing something? Is there any artifacts I can use, which I'm not aware?
Thanks in advance and I look forward for your advices !
Do you expect your opponents to sit idle while you amass that large number of creatures? Anything big enough to be a threat will not live very long. Also, this many creatures on the board is a big invitation for someone else's sweeper. You don't want to set yourself up for massive card disadvantage, and thus shouldn't play a 4th creature if three are enough to hold the fort and do business. Also consider, that you won't be seeing more than half of your deck, realistically you'll see about a third or less. That means, that of those 21 creatures you'll get a total of about 7 during the entire game. You want to hold some of them back to recover from the nasty things your opponents are bound to do.
Damn... I'm completly destroyed by your arguments. lol.
Ok, you both convinced me. I'll stick with Red and Green for a while, test it a while and try to tune it. I've also added Spring//Mind.
This is what I got so far:
Ok, I'll give some thought to the Blue question...
Let me ask you some other thing... If I was to drop Blue entirely, switching the Arcane Denial Thijs1301 suggested (which not only counters, but allows me to buy cards) for Beast Within, would you rather be without any mean to Draw Cards or would you add Harmonize even though I'm already on a tight spot for cards on deck?
I chose Firespout over Savage Twister for timing reasons. Twister needs 5 mana to do as much as Firespout, which you will have at the earliest by turn 4, probaly turn 5 or later. An early sweep of the board stops creature based mana acceleration and aggroish decks in their tracks, giving you breathing room to develop your board. From my experience, such a thing is essential for decks like this.
Great advice, I'll hold on to that and change the cards.
As for putting a target on your head, Pyrohemia already does this, since it threatens every smaller utility creature your opponents want to play. They'll be coming for you anyway, so don't pull your punches by weakening your deck. If you have to, pull your punches by not playing the cards as soon as you can, but rather some time later.
This one is a great advice! Once I've came up with some really strong cards into play and they 3v1 me to death before I could finish all of them (I killed only 1). I'm really worried turning the whole deck into a "Target me" sign, but as you've said, It is better to hold my punches with the cards I'm using than the cards I'm putting on deck. The first I can change during game, the latter I can't.
I don't expect you to have more than two, maybe three, creatures total that you can attack with in a given turn. I expect you to have even less that you want to attack with. And those are supposedly quite big already.
This is where I got lost.
I have 21 creatures, though I'll only attack with 15 (arguabily 12, if you count those Sun-Crowned Hunters out of the loop, even though I could attack with them if the enemy is without creatures). Do you really think I'll have only 2 or 3 creatures to attack overall? I was expecting to be quite efficient at attacking with 5 to 7 creatures buffed with Haze of Rage (and mostly when the enemy can't block, since I already damaged my creatures).
Arcane Denial is actually a good counterspell to have, since I'll draw a card too. What do you suggest? Only one Island on the deck, or two?
Although I agree with you, I just don't know what to remove. Best I could do had 63 cards and I had to remove Reap and Skullwinder (and both do what Regrowth do, but even better). There is ALWAYS someone with a black deck, so Reap allows me to get from 2 to 5 cards, usually. I just don't know how to fit them on the deck.
Getting extra mileage put of those Spitemares should be a priority, I’d say.
I already have Pyrohemia and Shivan Meteor (although it kills the mare, unless I'm able to shove Broken Fall somewhere. Isn't it enough? Do you have any other suggestion?
It's totally fine to put updated decklists in your answering posts, in fact doing so instead of linking to other sites is usually the better way to go about it. Some people are just not going to look at those links and you lose potential advisors.
Thanks ! I wasn't sure how to add a whole deck, now I've quoted you and I can add the deck here on the forum.
Now the first thing about your deck that spings to my mind is, that blue seems totally unnessessary so far.
Objectively blue is unnecessary, but counterspell isn't. As I said, not only some decks have some really nasty things (destroying cards, exiling cards, Gray Merchant of Asphodel or discarding cards from the top of the library to the graveyard), but there are some OTK combos. As much as I can say "let anyone else dispel it", I'm always looking for an extra counterspell.
On the other hand, I agree that Dispel was only there because my last deck had some really big creatures that I didn't wanted counterspelled, so I used it just to counter-counterspells. This deck doesn't rely on one or two cards alone as the other one did, so I'm willing to do this:
I'll put 2 island, 3 counterspell and those Ponder. When I land filter with Yavimaya Elder or Cultivate and I recognize I'm in no hurry to rush more Mountain and Forest, I'll get one "extra" Island until I have both.
This way I won't hurt my land economy that much, but I'll be able to counterspell when needed.
Since no one in my table removes Lands and both my dedication to Red and Green are low (most of the cards only cost 1 specific mana), this is a bet I'm willing to take. Consider this my "pet card", instead of Fanning the Flames (which you convinced me to remove).
I've taken Ponder over Mystic Speculation because Speculation was a Sorcery and I won't have any other mean to draw cards after I scry other than waiting next turn.
The second thing is, that your key pieces should be there as full four copies each. After all, they are what your deck needs to function the way you want it to.
Agreed, This is what my last deck lacked and I hated it for it. I'll adjust the numbers on the end of the post.
Haze of Rage is really underpowered. A straight up Overrun would be far more effective.
While I agree that Overrun would allow me to use Pyrohemia more times on the same turn, it just works once. The battles on that FFA tend to be REALLY long. I don't want to waste Overrun on a turn and never use it again. Haze of Rage allows me to do the buffing every turn (if I have the required mana), which is way more effective on the long run. If I'm unable to burn Sun-Crowned Hunters this is the next best thing to win the game. Vulshok Morningstar is good, but only affects one creature. Also, I'm not sure i want to spend A LOT of mana on Pyrohemia, because I'll add a "Target me" sign on my head. While I'm dealing only 1 damage to everyone and wrecking only one guy with Sun-Crowned Hunters burn and Haze of Rage's empowered dinos, I'll be safer, I guess.
You can get some life from playing lands, even color fixing ones to counteract Pyrohemia's damage on yourself. For r/g there are two such lands: Kazandu Refuge and Rugged Highlands. Radiant Fountain is also an option to virtually start the game with more life. Gruul Turf would let you reuse them for more life.
For dealing with bigger creatures, you can look into green, which has some really good options. Utopia Vow, Beast Within, a whole bunch of fight cards ala Prey Upon, Lignify, etc. Though with Pyrohemia and Spitemare, which you really should include, you can take down quite the big prey. Maybe run some Shivan Meteors to kill even most of the bigger Eldrazi, or to aim at a Spitemare to hit a player for 13, though it kills the 'mare, too..
All great ideas. I'm not sure which one to pick, though. I just noticed that AEther Membrane also works great against those creatures, since they will need to summon it again. I've considered also using Broken Fall to Regenerate AEther Membrane when they block something stronger than 5 or to regenerate Spitemare after a Shivan Meteor, which is AMAZING by itself.
Arcane Lighthouse seems unnessessary, since none of the sweepers nor Pyrohemia target anything. The only card that this could help a bit is Fanning the Flames, but that's already costly enough with your intent to buyback it.
Agreed. Removed both.
Some comments:
1) Why Firespout over Savage Twister? When considering both options, Savage Twister sounds better everytime, unless someone had a flying-heavy deck (but they don't). Most of them have a Baleful Strix mostly to draw cards, but that is all. The way I see it, Savage Twister sounds better overall, because I can choose how much it hurts.
2) I favored Spitemare and Shivan meteor over those green cards to deal with greater creatures.
3) I've removed Skullwinder and Reap, since in this deck have a lot of redundancy. The downside is that if someone Counterspell my cards or even kill it, I won't be able to get it again. (Also, this is why I still believe Haze of Rage is important. I'll still need to be able to kill someone just attacking, even if I'm out of Sun-Crowned Hunters.
Although I agree with the said White cards, I don't think I'll add another color right now. I already have a dino that gives me life with Enrage and the Loxodon (which can be greatly buffed through Haze of Rage.
I'll stick with 3 colors for now. Maybe I'll add White later.
Some comments:
1) I think Savage Twister and Firespout overlap. I'm not sure I want 4 cards doing almost the same thing.
2) Almost every deck on the FFA uses black, therefore: Reap. It is amazing, works amazing on any deck on the game. The same goes for Skullwinder and it adds A LOT of politics play chosing who I'll target.
3) Fanning the Flames is there just to be sure I'll have somthing to spend all my mana on the late game, if needed (my creatures are dead, for example).
4) I've added 2 Arcane Lighthouse to be able to kill Hexproofed creatures. I'm considering adding a Archetype of Endurance on the deck, to hexproof my creatures. Not sure if 1 or 2, though.
My main goal is to:
1) Pyrohemia my Sun-Crowned Hunters to damage whoever I want.
2) Pyrohemia all the other Enraged dinos to proc their effects.
3) Buybacking Haze of Rage to boost all creatures when enemy can't defend himself.
4) Lay low behind walls while doing it. A friend suggested Deadly Recluse because of Deathtouch, which scares a lot the attackers. I'm not sure if i use both or just the Wall.
5) If my creatures were killed, I can use Fanning the Flames with buyback to remove a creature or player that is targeting/locking me.
My major concern right now is that I'm unnable to remove strong creatures in one go, since I removed my black cards like Victim of Night.
Also, I already have 66 cards (and I haven't added neither Deadly Recluse nor the Archetype of Endurance yet. I'm not experienced in chosing how many cards of each, so maybe I've screwed up bad.
Any advices are more than welcome. And I can't thank you enough for you time and advices !
I'm not sure what your intended strategy is. You mentioned quite a number of cards and effects to aid your strategy, whatever it may turn out to be. But, what IS your goal? How to you plan on winning? How do you want to take out the other players? You have to answer that first, otherwise you'll just end up with a pile of cards without focus.
At first, my idea was to use Green creatures to deal damage, paired with Red's control (with lesser sweepers, as you said) and blue's scry/draw cards. My last deck used Pestilence to do damage to all creatures the same way you recommended Pyrohemia.
Now, you're giving me a lot of good ideas with the Enrage mechanic. I've played MtG when Tempest was released and only now I'm picking up the game again. I wasn't even aware of that mechanic yet. Now the damage my creatures will take won't be a problem, will be a desired mechanic and I really enjoy it.
I could use Enraged creatures and damage them all with spells like Pyrohemia or Lightning-Rig Crew to activate the Enrage effects. I could Arc Lightning two 1/1 creatures and even Enrage a Ravenous Daggertooth for extra health that turn, or Enrage Sun-Crowned Hunters to deal more 3 damage that turn for free. Or increase Snapping Sailback's power and resistance.
A lot of cards actually damage all players/opponents equally, so burning out everyone is not impossible, even without rares, especially if you build towards it (eg. Sulfurous Blast, Volcanic Fallout)
What worries me is the number of cards I'll use doing it. A lot of players have life drain mechanics (with cards like Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Basilica Screecher or even lifelink). I'm afraid I'll reach a point where I simply can't outdamage someone's already high health pool If I don't have big, reliable creatures that can attack every turn.
Also, hitting all players pulls A LOT of aggro and I'm afraid I'll be focused from the very first rounds. As you said, maybe walls are the way to go, offering me protecting from those early control burn spells. Aether Membrane really is amazing !
Red can be a force to reckon with in multiplayer FFA. It's just that one shot burn spells are less effective the more players there are. But good spot removal is never a waste in any format.
I really don't see that happening in my games. As I said, even if I could damage all players at once, one Gray Merchant of Asphodel I can't counter gives someone 40 HP (hitting 5 players for 8 damage). I'm not sure I'll have enough cards on the deck to kill this guy, unless I use Fanning the Flames with buyback spending all my mana every round. Of course this only works against one target, to finish him off.
Even with 6 land search cards, playing only 20 lands is not enough. You expect to have plenty of mana later in the game, but it won't be as much as you think with this few lands, and not that early either. With those numbers you still need at the very least 22, and I'd start building with 23. Those few more lands make it much more likely, that you can play a land searcher on turn 3, and it helps with color fixing, too. The key is to include ways to use excess mana. But being too greedy and cutting into your land base will hurt your deck far more than the few extra nonland cards will help it.
Now I'm not following. If I start my deck with 23 lands, I'll only have 37 cards to divide between blue's counterspells, scry and draw cards, red's burn and green's creatures. Also, from the cards I've already read, my dedication to a color will be 1, maybe 2.
I'm not sure I'll have enough cards on the library to do so many things on one round (unless I use a lot of buyback cards, which is also a good strategy).
From what I've seen, I can't see Burn as a real threat on the game. Unless I can summon a lot of Cinder Pyromancers and use something like Seething Anger (4 mana cost), Searing Touch(5 mana cost) or Haze of Rage(4 mana cost) to untap them and use the effect many times each round. Enrage sounds like way more reliable.
Now that I think of it, If i had enraged creatures that I can damage with Pyrohemia, I could also use Haze of Rage multiple times each round to buff them up. Since it has Storm, first time I cast it it will give +1/+0, second time +2/+0 and last time +3/+0, increasing +6/+0 for all enraged creatures. This could be a really nice strategy (considering I have 12 untaped mana on the game).
I've recently moved to another city and found a group of players there who play Free For All (FFA) once a week (4 to 6 players).
There is only one House rules: All deck are rareless.
Since I've never played a FFA game before, I'm looking for advice to create a new deck to be effective on this multiplayer setting.
Usually the decks played on their FFA are: Tokens, Aggro (one full Artifact, one Elf, one Slivers, but only when there are only 4 players, no one plays aggro with more than 4), a really annoying control deck with Spy Kit and Echoing Truth (return all creatures to hand) and a deck based on Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
There are one or two decks that have OTK combos, but they aren't usually used.
I was expecting to create something with Blue (to scry / draw cards and counterspell), Green (some creatures and searching for lands on the library to accelerate the game), Black (destroy creature, animate dead) and Red (control burns divided between creatures).
Blue is a must. And so is Green. I'm not sure I want to keep Black this time around, though. I could drop it for Red or use 4 colors.
Yes, I know, Red. On a FFA. I already know the odds, but hear me out:
Since a lot of those decks are based on really weak creatures (1 resistance, 2 at best) with really annoying effects (gaining life, buying cards, summoning tokens, generating mana), I was expecting to use some spells like Arc Lightning (2 damage) or Forked Bolt (3 damage) for control. I already know that I'm not going to create a full burn deck on a FFA because, well, I have 80 to 120 hit points to burn, instead of regular 20, but on this scenario, it sounds interesting to me. Also, no one uses red cards on their FFA.
Since I have 20 lands on deck, plus 3 Cultivate and 3 Yavimaya Elders, that not only it accelerates my game, but allows me to choose which basic lands I need, I expect to have a lot of lands. And since my deck isn't really heavy on the mana curve, I'll probably end my turns with A LOT of untapped lands on the field.
I have low mana devotion on all colours, so the best part of those cards is that I can choose which land I require based on my hand and the cards on play. This gives me a lot of versatility to work with, even more so when paired with Mystical Speculation's Scry 3.
I can send cards to the bottom as much as I want. When I want I can shuffle the library on demand.
So, back to the point: I was considering to use cards with Buyback, like Mystical Speculation (scry) or Shattering Pulse (destroy artifacts).
I don't really know good Flashback cards, but maybe those are an option too. What I'm trying to say is that I need cards to spend all those lands I've accelerated. I've even considered using cheap cards with buyback paired with cards with Storm.
Now, the major problems I'm facing with this deck so far:
1) I can't rely on red burn damage for two reasons: As I said, I have 80 to 120 hit points to burn on a FFA, not 20 like a duel. Also, that pulls a lot of aggro on multiplayer. So I need new Green or Red creatures to make it work.
2) I'm lacking creatures and I don't have a clue about what i should use. It would be great to have creatures with synergy with the other cards on the deck (like Cinder Pyromancer, that untaps everytime I cast a red spell).
3) I'm really vulnerable to creatures. Maybe problem 2 will solve this. Maybe I should use walls? Also, I can't gain/recover HP.
4) I need cards to spend that huge amount of untapped lands I'll have. Cards with Buyback are interesting, so I can use them every round, instead of using it only once.
If you can give any advice of cards for that deck, I would be really thankful!
Thank you in advance for reading all of this!
If I'm posting on the wrong topic, please let me know, but I think I'm in the right place.
I've always used red strategies on my usual EDH/Commander table (usually me + 3 players), but I've decided to try something new: I've bought a pre-made Selesnya token deck on the internet and I'm currently "fixing it" by myself. I've already made A LOT of changes, but I know there is still a long way to go.
Current deck is listed below, followed by some considerations I've noticed playing with it:
1 Emmara Tandris
Lands (33)
1 Fertile Thicket
1 Temple of Plenty
1 Blighted Steppe
9 Forest
1 Command Tower
1 Grove of the Guardian
1 New Benalia
1 Elfhame Palace
9 Plains
1 Selesnya Guildgate
1 Evolving Wilds
1 Tranquil Expanse
1 Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree
1 Scattered Groves
1 Canopy Vista
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
Creatures (25)
1 Inexorable Blob
1 Satyr Enchanter
1 Ahn-Crop Champion
1 Abzan Battle Priest
1 Citadel Castellan
1 Chorus of the Conclave
1 Soul Swallower
1 Living Hive
1 Phantom General
1 Leonin Armorguard
1 Oran-Rief Hydra
1 Trostani's Summoner
1 Watchwolf
1 Selesnya Guildmage
1 Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
1 Sandsteppe Mastodon
1 Mycoloth
1 Bronzebeak Moa
1 Roc Egg
1 Boon Satyr
1 Risen Sanctuary
1 Sakura-tribe Elder
1 Hedge Troll
1 Tolsimir Wolfblood
1 Tendershoot Dryad
1 Alive // Well
1 Appeal // Authority
1 Bestial Menace
1 Call of the Conclave
1 Coursers' Accord
1 Fungal Sprouting
1 Nissa’s Revelation
1 Overrun
1 Supply // Demand
1 Sylvan Scrying
1 Wake the reflections
1 Triumph of the Hordes
Artifacts (1)
1 Oketra’s Monumentum
Instants (16)
1 Advent of the Wurm
1 Sprout Swarm
1 Beast Within
1 Druid's Deliverance
1 Fated Intervention
1 Hunting Pack
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Scatter the Seeds
1 Sundering Growth
1 Return to Dust
1 Wax // Wane
1 Selesnya charm
1 Mercy Killing
1 Strength in numbers
1 Make a stand
1 Rootborn Defenses
1 Citadel Siege
1 Collective Blessing
1 Growing Ranks
1 Intangible Virtue
1 Pollenbright Wings
1 Marshal’s Anthem
1 Glorious Anthem
1 Abundant Growth
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Divine Visitation
1 Glare of Subdual
1 True Conviction
Some considerations:
I don't have enough money to Trostani, Selesnya's Voice or Rhys the Redeemed, I'm looking for a good Legendary Selesnya creature.
Shanna, Sisay's Legacy is cheap and sounds really nice for a change, being really easy to cast and recast. I don't like to rely solely on my commander, but I want them to be viable.
Saffi Eriksdotter is REALLY expensive, but sounds awesome, too...
I do have cards to fetch lands such as Kodama's Reach, Cultivate and even a Crop Rotation available, but I'm not sure how many of those I should use on the deck. How many of those "fetch lands" are recommended, usually?
Thanks in advance !
Great cards! Thanks for the input !
Multiplayers. Usually 4 players, ocasionally 5. The problem is that this player's decks usually are fast at tutoring, so he can have a ton of resources early on to control the whole table when people decide to gang on him.
I mean, of course my deck can be improved, but it's overall strategy works. I've won quite a few times online with it, and usually when this player is removed from the table, I fare really well. But what can I do if the guy can fetch Cyclonic Rift and Counterspell with 3 mana and repeat it every turn?
When he reaches 7 mana, I'm literally out of the game. He can, as an instant, return all my permanents to my hand. And since I can't attack with haste, he'll do it again next turn. Today, with the deck as It is, I could draw the whole deck and I won't find anything to counter that. And If i had any, it would be countered.
And since he can clone cards with Inalla, Archmage Ritualist or replay it from the graveyard as much as he wants (with a really low mana cost), if every player had one of those, he probably would be able to counter all of them.
Real question is: how much can I hinder my game plan to counter his?
I'm sorry about posting on the wrong place. An admin contacted me and moved my thread. Thank you for the input and the cards!
Thanks for the input !
Thanks for the input.
I do agree that he deserves the aggro he gets. Also, you raised another really significant issue: How much I want to hinder my game plan to counter his game plan. I don't expect to control him nor the table, but I just don't want to be completely controlled by his deck.
I'm not sure how much I can "add from the sideboard" without actually harming my strategies.
Any thoughts?
Thank you everyone !
I've always been a fan of the Red color, so almost 100% of my decks had Red on it until last month. I've actually bought a Selesnya token deck (Green and White) and I'm having a lot of fun with it.
The problem is: At my usual table (and the only one I play with), one of the players uses A LOT of control decks with blue cards on it and I'm feeling out of options on his hands.
His current "main" deck uses Inalla, Archmage Ritualist as a commander.
Also, he owns a MtG Card Store, a lot of cash and really expensive cards.
He has a lot of tutor cards, which allows him to have whatever card he wants on his hand, for example:
He can cast Spellseeker to tutor Demonic Tutor, clone it with Inalla, Archmage Ritualist to fetch a Counterspell, for example.
And he can also use it again twice using Archaeomancer, also cloning it with Inalla, Archmage Ritualist. Therefore his deck always allow him to have a lot of control all the time.
My major threats are usually dispelled (win-conditions like Triumph of the Hordes, Overrun...), but this isn't even the major problem (he can shoot down one or two win-condition cards, but I can still summon creatures, attack, and so on...). The major problem is Cyclonic Rift.
Once he tutors Cyclonic Rift, I feel that I've lost the game. Without red, I don't have access to Haste, which means I can't cast and attack at the same turn. All my tokens are permanently lost (as the instant and sorceries that created them) and he can do it every turn.
At least red had Red Elemental Blast or Pyroblast (which I actually cast from Sunforger, but that is another story).
I'm not interested in adding ANOTHER deck color for this one specific purpose (also losing access to my current commander), but I need to find a way to counter it.
I can't exile his instants (most of exile effects target permanents), If i exile his graveyard he can grab it first as an instant (using Archaeomancer or other cards like that, which he owns) and I can't protect my permanents (Protection against color DUMBLY only protects targetting, not global effects like Cyclonic Rift. Have I mentioned this is dumb?).
I can't find cards to deal with this kind of control, nor green, nor white.
Am I missing something? Is there any artifacts I can use, which I'm not aware?
Thanks in advance and I look forward for your advices !
Damn... I'm completly destroyed by your arguments. lol.
Ok, you both convinced me. I'll stick with Red and Green for a while, test it a while and try to tune it. I've also added Spring//Mind.
This is what I got so far:
6 Forest
9 Mountain
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Rugged Highlands
Creatures (21)
3 Aether Membrane
4 Ravenous Daggertooth
4 Spitemare
4 Snapping Sailback
3 Sun-Crowned Hunters
3 Yavimaya Elder
1 Cultivate
2 Spring // Mind
3 Beast Within
2 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Firespout
4 Pyrohemia
4 Vulshok Morningstar
2 Shivan Meteor
I want to thank you all again for your time, experience and expertise !
As soon as I can buy the deck I'll post a feedback on this thread to let you know how it did!
Let me ask you some other thing... If I was to drop Blue entirely, switching the Arcane Denial Thijs1301 suggested (which not only counters, but allows me to buy cards) for Beast Within, would you rather be without any mean to Draw Cards or would you add Harmonize even though I'm already on a tight spot for cards on deck?
Great advice, I'll hold on to that and change the cards.
This one is a great advice! Once I've came up with some really strong cards into play and they 3v1 me to death before I could finish all of them (I killed only 1). I'm really worried turning the whole deck into a "Target me" sign, but as you've said, It is better to hold my punches with the cards I'm using than the cards I'm putting on deck. The first I can change during game, the latter I can't.
This is where I got lost.
I have 21 creatures, though I'll only attack with 15 (arguabily 12, if you count those Sun-Crowned Hunters out of the loop, even though I could attack with them if the enemy is without creatures). Do you really think I'll have only 2 or 3 creatures to attack overall? I was expecting to be quite efficient at attacking with 5 to 7 creatures buffed with Haze of Rage (and mostly when the enemy can't block, since I already damaged my creatures).
This leaves me with 2 drafts:
2 Islands
5 Forest
8 Mountain
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Rugged Highlands
Creatures (21)
3 Aether Membrane
4 Ravenous Daggertooth
4 Spitemare
4 Snapping Sailback
3 Sun-Crowned Hunters
3 Yavimaya Elder
3 Cultivate
3 Counterspell
2 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Firespout
4 Pyrohemia
2 Mystic Speculation
2 Shivan Meteor
6 Forest
9 Mountain
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Rugged Highlands
Creatures (21)
3 Aether Membrane
4 Ravenous Daggertooth
4 Spitemare
4 Snapping Sailback
3 Sun-Crowned Hunters
3 Yavimaya Elder
3 Cultivate
3 Beast Within
2 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Firespout
4 Pyrohemia
4 Vulshok Morningstar
2 Shivan Meteor
Although I agree with you, I just don't know what to remove. Best I could do had 63 cards and I had to remove Reap and Skullwinder (and both do what Regrowth do, but even better). There is ALWAYS someone with a black deck, so Reap allows me to get from 2 to 5 cards, usually. I just don't know how to fit them on the deck.
I already have Pyrohemia and Shivan Meteor (although it kills the mare, unless I'm able to shove Broken Fall somewhere. Isn't it enough? Do you have any other suggestion?
Thanks ! I wasn't sure how to add a whole deck, now I've quoted you and I can add the deck here on the forum.
Objectively blue is unnecessary, but counterspell isn't. As I said, not only some decks have some really nasty things (destroying cards, exiling cards, Gray Merchant of Asphodel or discarding cards from the top of the library to the graveyard), but there are some OTK combos. As much as I can say "let anyone else dispel it", I'm always looking for an extra counterspell.
On the other hand, I agree that Dispel was only there because my last deck had some really big creatures that I didn't wanted counterspelled, so I used it just to counter-counterspells. This deck doesn't rely on one or two cards alone as the other one did, so I'm willing to do this:
I'll put 2 island, 3 counterspell and those Ponder. When I land filter with Yavimaya Elder or Cultivate and I recognize I'm in no hurry to rush more Mountain and Forest, I'll get one "extra" Island until I have both.
This way I won't hurt my land economy that much, but I'll be able to counterspell when needed.
Since no one in my table removes Lands and both my dedication to Red and Green are low (most of the cards only cost 1 specific mana), this is a bet I'm willing to take. Consider this my "pet card", instead of Fanning the Flames (which you convinced me to remove).
I've taken Ponder over Mystic Speculation because Speculation was a Sorcery and I won't have any other mean to draw cards after I scry other than waiting next turn.
Agreed, This is what my last deck lacked and I hated it for it. I'll adjust the numbers on the end of the post.
While I agree that Overrun would allow me to use Pyrohemia more times on the same turn, it just works once. The battles on that FFA tend to be REALLY long. I don't want to waste Overrun on a turn and never use it again. Haze of Rage allows me to do the buffing every turn (if I have the required mana), which is way more effective on the long run. If I'm unable to burn Sun-Crowned Hunters this is the next best thing to win the game.
Vulshok Morningstar is good, but only affects one creature. Also, I'm not sure i want to spend A LOT of mana on Pyrohemia, because I'll add a "Target me" sign on my head. While I'm dealing only 1 damage to everyone and wrecking only one guy with Sun-Crowned Hunters burn and Haze of Rage's empowered dinos, I'll be safer, I guess.
Agreed. Amazing lands, I'll add them.
All great ideas. I'm not sure which one to pick, though. I just noticed that AEther Membrane also works great against those creatures, since they will need to summon it again. I've considered also using Broken Fall to Regenerate AEther Membrane when they block something stronger than 5 or to regenerate Spitemare after a Shivan Meteor, which is AMAZING by itself.
Agreed. Removed both.
Some comments:
1) Why Firespout over Savage Twister? When considering both options, Savage Twister sounds better everytime, unless someone had a flying-heavy deck (but they don't). Most of them have a Baleful Strix mostly to draw cards, but that is all. The way I see it, Savage Twister sounds better overall, because I can choose how much it hurts.
2) I favored Spitemare and Shivan meteor over those green cards to deal with greater creatures.
3) I've removed Skullwinder and Reap, since in this deck have a lot of redundancy. The downside is that if someone Counterspell my cards or even kill it, I won't be able to get it again. (Also, this is why I still believe Haze of Rage is important. I'll still need to be able to kill someone just attacking, even if I'm out of Sun-Crowned Hunters.
2 Islands
5 Forest
8 Mountain
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Rugged Highlands
Creatures (23)
4 Aether Membrane
4 Ravenous Daggertooth
4 Spitemare
4 Snapping Sailback
4 Sun-Crowned Hunters
3 Yavimaya Elder
3 Cultivate
3 Counterspell
2 Loxodon Warhammer
4 Savage Twister
4 Pyrohemia
2 Mystic Speculation
2 Broken Fall
2 Shivan Meteor
2 Haze of Rage
I also did a version with only 63 cards, although I had to remove some things I didn't wanted to, but I don't think there is any other way.
2 Islands
5 Forest
8 Mountain
4 Kazandu Refuge
4 Rugged Highlands
Creatures (21)
3 Aether Membrane
4 Ravenous Daggertooth
4 Spitemare
4 Snapping Sailback
3 Sun-Crowned Hunters
3 Yavimaya Elder
3 Cultivate
3 Counterspell
2 Loxodon Warhammer
3 Savage Twister
4 Pyrohemia
2 Mystic Speculation
2 Shivan Meteor
What do you think?
Thanks again for all your support !
I'll stick with 3 colors for now. Maybe I'll add White later.
I'm not sure I can add a whole deck on a reply, so I've created it on TappedOut (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/dino-burn-rareless-ffa/).
Can you check it and give me some advice?
Some comments:
1) I think Savage Twister and Firespout overlap. I'm not sure I want 4 cards doing almost the same thing.
2) Almost every deck on the FFA uses black, therefore: Reap. It is amazing, works amazing on any deck on the game. The same goes for Skullwinder and it adds A LOT of politics play chosing who I'll target.
3) Fanning the Flames is there just to be sure I'll have somthing to spend all my mana on the late game, if needed (my creatures are dead, for example).
4) I've added 2 Arcane Lighthouse to be able to kill Hexproofed creatures. I'm considering adding a Archetype of Endurance on the deck, to hexproof my creatures. Not sure if 1 or 2, though.
My main goal is to:
1) Pyrohemia my Sun-Crowned Hunters to damage whoever I want.
2) Pyrohemia all the other Enraged dinos to proc their effects.
3) Buybacking Haze of Rage to boost all creatures when enemy can't defend himself.
4) Lay low behind walls while doing it. A friend suggested Deadly Recluse because of Deathtouch, which scares a lot the attackers. I'm not sure if i use both or just the Wall.
5) If my creatures were killed, I can use Fanning the Flames with buyback to remove a creature or player that is targeting/locking me.
My major concern right now is that I'm unnable to remove strong creatures in one go, since I removed my black cards like Victim of Night.
Also, I already have 66 cards (and I haven't added neither Deadly Recluse nor the Archetype of Endurance yet. I'm not experienced in chosing how many cards of each, so maybe I've screwed up bad.
Any advices are more than welcome. And I can't thank you enough for you time and advices !
EDIT: One last thing:
I'm not sure who is this guy, but he confirmed what I understood from Enrage's phrasing: http://www.boardgamebarrister.com/magic-ruling-exactly-how-enraged/
I can't proc Sun-Crowned Hunters thrice with an Arc Lightning because the damage happens only one time, but I can proc it thrice from activating Pyrohemia three times and waiting for the damage to resolve. Therefore each Sun-Crowned Hunters can potentially do 9 damage to an opponent with only 3 red manas. If I have 2 Sun-Crowned Hunters on the field, 18 damage with the same 3 red manas. 27 if 3 dinos.
That is a lot of unblockable damage every turn, not counting the attacks, Haze of Rage and the other cards.
At first, my idea was to use Green creatures to deal damage, paired with Red's control (with lesser sweepers, as you said) and blue's scry/draw cards. My last deck used Pestilence to do damage to all creatures the same way you recommended Pyrohemia.
Now, you're giving me a lot of good ideas with the Enrage mechanic. I've played MtG when Tempest was released and only now I'm picking up the game again. I wasn't even aware of that mechanic yet. Now the damage my creatures will take won't be a problem, will be a desired mechanic and I really enjoy it.
I could use Enraged creatures and damage them all with spells like Pyrohemia or Lightning-Rig Crew to activate the Enrage effects. I could Arc Lightning two 1/1 creatures and even Enrage a Ravenous Daggertooth for extra health that turn, or Enrage Sun-Crowned Hunters to deal more 3 damage that turn for free. Or increase Snapping Sailback's power and resistance.
What worries me is the number of cards I'll use doing it. A lot of players have life drain mechanics (with cards like Gray Merchant of Asphodel, Basilica Screecher or even lifelink). I'm afraid I'll reach a point where I simply can't outdamage someone's already high health pool If I don't have big, reliable creatures that can attack every turn.
Also, hitting all players pulls A LOT of aggro and I'm afraid I'll be focused from the very first rounds. As you said, maybe walls are the way to go, offering me protecting from those early control burn spells. Aether Membrane really is amazing !
I really don't see that happening in my games. As I said, even if I could damage all players at once, one Gray Merchant of Asphodel I can't counter gives someone 40 HP (hitting 5 players for 8 damage). I'm not sure I'll have enough cards on the deck to kill this guy, unless I use Fanning the Flames with buyback spending all my mana every round. Of course this only works against one target, to finish him off.
Now I'm not following. If I start my deck with 23 lands, I'll only have 37 cards to divide between blue's counterspells, scry and draw cards, red's burn and green's creatures. Also, from the cards I've already read, my dedication to a color will be 1, maybe 2.
I'm not sure I'll have enough cards on the library to do so many things on one round (unless I use a lot of buyback cards, which is also a good strategy).
From what I've seen, I can't see Burn as a real threat on the game. Unless I can summon a lot of Cinder Pyromancers and use something like Seething Anger (4 mana cost), Searing Touch(5 mana cost) or Haze of Rage(4 mana cost) to untap them and use the effect many times each round. Enrage sounds like way more reliable.
Now that I think of it, If i had enraged creatures that I can damage with Pyrohemia, I could also use Haze of Rage multiple times each round to buff them up. Since it has Storm, first time I cast it it will give +1/+0, second time +2/+0 and last time +3/+0, increasing +6/+0 for all enraged creatures. This could be a really nice strategy (considering I have 12 untaped mana on the game).
Sounds like my game strategy is taking form =)
Still, advices are more than welcome !
I've recently moved to another city and found a group of players there who play Free For All (FFA) once a week (4 to 6 players).
There is only one House rules: All deck are rareless.
Since I've never played a FFA game before, I'm looking for advice to create a new deck to be effective on this multiplayer setting.
Usually the decks played on their FFA are: Tokens, Aggro (one full Artifact, one Elf, one Slivers, but only when there are only 4 players, no one plays aggro with more than 4), a really annoying control deck with Spy Kit and Echoing Truth (return all creatures to hand) and a deck based on Gray Merchant of Asphodel.
There are one or two decks that have OTK combos, but they aren't usually used.
I was expecting to create something with Blue (to scry / draw cards and counterspell), Green (some creatures and searching for lands on the library to accelerate the game), Black (destroy creature, animate dead) and Red (control burns divided between creatures).
Blue is a must. And so is Green. I'm not sure I want to keep Black this time around, though. I could drop it for Red or use 4 colors.
Yes, I know, Red. On a FFA. I already know the odds, but hear me out:
Since a lot of those decks are based on really weak creatures (1 resistance, 2 at best) with really annoying effects (gaining life, buying cards, summoning tokens, generating mana), I was expecting to use some spells like Arc Lightning (2 damage) or Forked Bolt (3 damage) for control. I already know that I'm not going to create a full burn deck on a FFA because, well, I have 80 to 120 hit points to burn, instead of regular 20, but on this scenario, it sounds interesting to me. Also, no one uses red cards on their FFA.
Since I have 20 lands on deck, plus 3 Cultivate and 3 Yavimaya Elders, that not only it accelerates my game, but allows me to choose which basic lands I need, I expect to have a lot of lands. And since my deck isn't really heavy on the mana curve, I'll probably end my turns with A LOT of untapped lands on the field.
I have low mana devotion on all colours, so the best part of those cards is that I can choose which land I require based on my hand and the cards on play. This gives me a lot of versatility to work with, even more so when paired with Mystical Speculation's Scry 3.
I can send cards to the bottom as much as I want. When I want I can shuffle the library on demand.
So, back to the point: I was considering to use cards with Buyback, like Mystical Speculation (scry) or Shattering Pulse (destroy artifacts).
I don't really know good Flashback cards, but maybe those are an option too. What I'm trying to say is that I need cards to spend all those lands I've accelerated. I've even considered using cheap cards with buyback paired with cards with Storm.
Now, the major problems I'm facing with this deck so far:
1) I can't rely on red burn damage for two reasons: As I said, I have 80 to 120 hit points to burn on a FFA, not 20 like a duel. Also, that pulls a lot of aggro on multiplayer. So I need new Green or Red creatures to make it work.
2) I'm lacking creatures and I don't have a clue about what i should use. It would be great to have creatures with synergy with the other cards on the deck (like Cinder Pyromancer, that untaps everytime I cast a red spell).
3) I'm really vulnerable to creatures. Maybe problem 2 will solve this. Maybe I should use walls? Also, I can't gain/recover HP.
4) I need cards to spend that huge amount of untapped lands I'll have. Cards with Buyback are interesting, so I can use them every round, instead of using it only once.
If you can give any advice of cards for that deck, I would be really thankful!
Thank you in advance for reading all of this!
Looking forward to read your answers!