So, under the premise that you will face a diverse metagame:
1)Lightning Bolt: This card is very good in general. The problem is that sometimes it just feels underwhelming in contrast to the rest of the deck. It's versatile and helps in bad matchups like go wide and PW-based control(BGx and UWx). I think playing 1 is right more often than not, but 2 could be a stretch. Test them yourself and see, i think you will end up in a split with Push IF you really want 2 Bolts. 4 Push and 1 Bolt is my personal split, i consider 3-2 to be correct too. Also, 6 one-mana removals should be a little too much, even if you expect lots of creature based combo and go wide. This brings me to the next point.
2)TBR: This card is very good, even if we don't pack giant Goyfs, it still holds its value with DS because those two are that good. I play 1 MB, and 0 SB. I'm pretty sure 0 is incorrect, and more than 2 is also incorrect. 1-2 are the preferred copies, you can manage yourself whether you want them MB or SB. This card basically accomplishes much of what Bolt does against said strategies, but instead of answering, it just kills you opponent. There has to be a crapload of D&T to prefer the extra removal over TBR. TBR also make SBing very easy, if they play too much removal, it's out.
3)Liliana the Last hope: This is in my opinion a very good card in DS strategies. It helps in a variety of matchups which goes from Go Wide to Control and Midrange. It's really all over the place, which makes your SB bigger for broader applications. I think this card deserves a nice 1-2 of in the SB, along LOTV(which probably should be a 2-3 of).
4)Explosives: I've been on and off this card. It's lights out when it's good, and medium to inefficient otherwise. There are few decks that get completly wrecked by it(like Bogles) but it does a good impression of other good cards like By Force and Izzet Staticaster, Dreadbore and whatnot. It remains in my list of cards that stretch your SB large enough to cover a bigger meta(which seems very important in nowadays Modern), which is why i would put it 1-2 in my SB if i can't predict the metagame to some extent.
Other than that, 2-of Dismember without TBR is going to give you a headache, because Dismember doesn't like long games in GDS(because of Snapcaster Mage). I'm still skeptical of "Battle Rage Grixis" builds since we pack less punch that our Green counterpart, but we grind much better. This has been in my opinion the biggest challenge Grixis Shadow players have had since its inception. Players can simply not decide whether it's right to go all in, or maintain a control approach. The metagame in Modern changes too fast and this led to people believe that being all in was the right approach, but i'm not sure it's right, i think the controlling nature of the Grixis shard is what makes this deck good, right now i'm trying all builds and haven't made a choice yet.
If you have any other question i'm happy to help and give you my opinion.
What are your thoughts about Opt and how some lists are cutting Serum Visions for it ?
Is Kolaghan's Command still maindeckable on the current metagame ? What about LotV MD?
What do you think that are the most efficient way to adapt Grixis Shadow to the current metagame?
There is no need to reinvent the wheel. The deck plays delve threat and Snapcaster mage, it follows that Thought Scour is an essential part of the strategy. If you remove them you have to remove Tasigur and Angler and now it's not the same deck. Spare yourself the trouble.
Actually, You're trading in a little raw speed (Like a T2 Angler) and delve selection for stronger card selection. It's worth giving a try to see how much it affects the whole delve concept. You DON'T need to cut the Delve Threats at all.
@AcademyRuins - The problem with YP Is that it doesn't trigger Ferocious, of which is a key to protect our threats.
The ideal additional threat would need to be a somewhat huge creature with a low CMC (Frost Walker is something close to it but too fragile.) Tarmogoyf is an option, yes, but I think You're better of playing 5C Shadow if you want to play it.
I really agree with this, going to play test it also, thought scour has felt great at times but the thing is do we really want to be putting our delve threats out quick? The grixis version compared to the other versions; except esper version, feels more controlling than aggroish.
Tell us how it goes as well.
On a few playtests I feel that it makes our delve threats slower but greatly improves our draw quality without spending 2 more slots to cantrips. But I am only gonna be sure about its results and how much it affects the deck after playing 2 or 3 weeks with it.
@Ayiluss - I really think 14 cantrips are too much air for GDS, so I think it's okay to cut 1 opt or 1 visions for TBR.
After three long weeks playing other formats, I am back.
I want to try to cut the Scours entirely, playing a full set of Opt, Visions and Street Wraith.
Yeah, Call me crazy
I just REALLY wanna see how it goes and on which it improves the deck or makes it worse.
Thread seems useless if people just want to discuss brewed up versions of Grixis Shadow
Opt has seemed underwhelming in the deck, I think the pro-tour players will probably have a lot of people realize serum visions is just better
People gather here to share their ideas and have a feedback about them as well as discussing the archetype itself, So I don't see the problem of people sharing their personal brews at all.
Also, the metagame changed, people are trying to find new ways to adapt to it or trying new brews to see where it leads.
I am interested on a sideboard guide though, I've got one but it feels outdated.
Played a 50 man tournament last saturday and went 3-2-1.
Played a list with 2 TBR main, 2 Tombstalker, 19 lands, 0 opt, 1 Liliana TLH main and 2 Pia & Kiran Nallar on the Sideboard
1-2 vs Skred And Taxes
1-2 vs Jund Midrange
2-1 vs Jeskai Tempo
2-0 vs Burn
2-0 vs Auras
1-1 vs Counters Company
I draw with the company deck because I was too stubborn to concede when I should, and I really enjoyed playing Tombstalker, it won me games that I would've lost with angler such as the Auras, Skred and Jeskai Games.
Pia & Kiran was great against eh Jeskai deck but I couldn't test her much. 4cmc hurts a little, although I admit that we want her on the games that usually go long.
Do you have situations where you cannot cast Tombstalker :
- because of its higher mana cost than Gurmag's (not enough cards to delve)?
- because of its BB in casting cost?
- because you need to keep U open to protect it with Denial so you have to lose a turn to cast it?
- Yes. You will usually always cast Stalker one turn later than Gurmag Angler because it costs 2 + delve rather than 1 plus delve
- No. With a 19-land manabase I've never had issues on casting him due to not having BB. Although I played with 2 Swamps to avoid ghost quarter/blood moon locks.
- Yes. specially early-game.
The thing is: Stalker costs 1 more than Angler and It has its downsides, I admit it and I am okay with living with those downsides.
Sometimes this one turn might cost me the game ? Yeah, I agree. But having a massive flying body is something that is worth on its own in a lot of matchups.
What is the general consensus on the number of Stubborn Denials on main deck ?
I am playing with 3 atm, and it feels great to have when you're ahead on the board but it is a bad topdeck when you are behind.
Played a 50 man tournament last saturday and went 3-2-1.
Played a list with 2 TBR main, 2 Tombstalker, 19 lands, 0 opt, 1 Liliana TLH main and 2 Pia & Kiran Nallar on the Sideboard
1-2 vs Skred And Taxes
1-2 vs Jund Midrange
2-1 vs Jeskai Tempo
2-0 vs Burn
2-0 vs Auras
1-1 vs Counters Company
I draw with the company deck because I was too stubborn to concede when I should, and I really enjoyed playing Tombstalker, it won me games that I would've lost with angler such as the Auras, Skred and Jeskai Games.
Pia & Kiran was great against eh Jeskai deck but I couldn't test her much. 4cmc hurts a little, although I admit that we want her on the games that usually go long.
By the way, has anyone tested Pia and Kiran Nalaar yet?
I've been advocating 2 P&K in the SB for months - well before people started trying Young Pyromancer. It allows you to fight Lingering Souls, trumps midrange matchups against opponents that don't have Lingering Souls, is a threat that doesn't rely on the GY vs. UWx control (which will typically have RiP) and also demands a sweeper on its own, allows you to block Etched Champion and random dinky fliers vs. Affinity, etc. The card is great in GDS and criminally underplayed.
Also, it requires RR and 4 mana total. Can we reliably have this kind of mana total?
I didn't have much of a problem in the 19 land manabase with 3 red sources. You only bring it in against matchups that go long, and maybe against affinity where you have a million ways to slow them down and you highly value the colorless tokens.
You see better 2 pia and kira in he side that 3 lingering and 1 godless? To play against humans and creature decks sometimes I feel that 18 lands are too few to play more midrange / control. The idea of Pia I like but I feel that we would have to go up to 19 lands.
Splashing Lingering Souls would be better at fighting most of the battles that you want to fight with P&K, but it takes an extra SB slot due to the land (or destabilizes your manabase by replacing a land with a Shrine MD), and sometimes you'll mill your one white source with Thought Scour.
I'm not too fond of the 18 land lists with 2 Opts on top of the usual 12 cantrips anyway. Too much air. I prefer 19 lands.
While a bit clunky, i kinda like Engineered Explosives against Humans as most of their important stuff has a cmc of 2 or 3.
EE against Thalia sounds reeeeeal awkward. If you're going to pay 5 mana to take out their 2 drops, at that point Damnation starts looking a lot more attractive.
Gonna try 2 P&K Nalaar on my sideboard today.
I agree with you that 19 lands and fewer cantrips seems like the best choice for GDS atm. I've been testing with 10 cantrips and more removals/Lilianas.
Guys, I'll have a 60-man tournament tomorrow and I'd really appreciate some ideas on which cards I should play on either maindeck or sideboard. I am going with grixis this time.
Here is the last event's metagame
1 4c Humans
1 8Rack
2 Abzan Midrange
1 Abzan Company
2 Ad Nauseam
3 Affinity
1 Bant Blink
2 Bant Reliquary
4 Big Red
1 Boros Burn
3 Burn
1 BW Eldrazi
2 BW Pox
2 Deathshadow
1 Dredge
1 Eldrazi Tron
1 GW Company
1 GW Hatebears
1 GW Tron
2 Infect
4 Jeskai
3 Jund Midrange
1 Kiki Chord
1 Kiki Nahiri
1 Living End
1 Mardu
2 Merfolk
1 Mill
1 Mono Green
2 Mono White Prison
1 RG Ponza
1 RG Valakut
1 RW Nahiri
1 Skred And Taxes
2 UR Storm
2 UW Control
1 "Vengevine"
The meta feels kinda unfavored for GDS but since it's the deck I have I'll play it.
Also, is JDS/5 Color better against blood moon decks ?
1) How many Fatal Push and how many Terminate and Lightning Bolt in the maindeck? How many in the sideboard?
2) Do you play Opt? If yes, how many pieces? How many number of lands do you prefer?
3) 4 or 3 Street Wraith?
4) Do you play Temur Battle Rage? How many pieces?
5) Young Pyromancer? How many of those?
6) Liliana Of The Veil? How many of those?
7) Sweepers? What kind of?
8) What question would you like to exist, so that you can answer it yourself- and of course if you'd like, answer it yourself!
1) Right now it's 3 bolt, 3 push, 2 terminate, 2 dismember. I might change it next saturday.
2) I tried opt a lot of times and, although I liked it, I am not sure if we really want it. As Spooly mentioned in his article, Turbo Xerox is not always a good thing in modern. I'd rather have a business card instead.
3) As much as I think that it's better to run the full playset, I always tend to run 3 Wraiths unless I have a reason not to do so.
4) 2 Maindeck. The card wins me many games.
5) I haven't tested this boy yet.
6) Used to run 1 LTV main and 2 TLH side. Now I run 1 TLH main, 1 side and I am not sure whether I still want LTV. That's more of a meta call and a gameplay perspective.
7) Always run 2 Kozilek's Return and 2 Engineered Explosives.
Went to an 8 man today. 3-0
2-1 vs. Affinity, where TBR won me one game, lost the other with infect damage and the last one i was locked bya chalice for 1, but Tombstalker + Explosives for 0 followed by double bolt won the game.
2-0 Vs Counters Company, not much to say on this one. The Matchup just feels highly favourable
2-0 vs. Abzan Reliquary, just had to make sure that neither Ramunap Excavator or Azusa were played or remained on the battlefield. Again, Tombstalker won me the game.
Flying REALLY helps when you are on a stalemate on the ground.
By the way, has anyone tested Pia and Kiran Nalaar yet?
Anyone have any idea in how to deal with humans decks?
Faced one in the mkm series BArcelona that shutted down my possibilities to get into top 8 (was 5-1, faced him in the 7th round).
Maybe it's time to get in bolts again? maybe another form of massive removal in the side? Currently playing 2x Kozilek's Return in the side, but Humans get out of the 2 damage really fast...
Played against humans a few months ago and the match feels unwinnable.
Thalia makes sweepers slower, most of their creatures are non-fetch push-proof. Reflector mage is a pain in the ass and the new Meddling Mage + Freebooter plan can lock you out of the game entirely. I am not even sure if adding more maindeck bolts and Damnation on the sideboard is a good idea because the deck has so many ways to disrupt your gameplan;
It's a matchup that feels realy, REALLY bad for Grixis. Perhaps it's better for the 5 color jund version.
It's better but still not good. Right now my plan is Lingering Souls to buy time and hope to draw Temur Battle Rage. A big problem is that none of the sweepers are that great against them because of Thalia's Lieutenant.
Funny fact: Humans players on reddit says that the matchup against non-shadow BGx decks are bad matchups.
Such an irony, since DS decks replaced them at the Midrange axis hahahaha
Anyone have any idea in how to deal with humans decks?
Faced one in the mkm series BArcelona that shutted down my possibilities to get into top 8 (was 5-1, faced him in the 7th round).
Maybe it's time to get in bolts again? maybe another form of massive removal in the side? Currently playing 2x Kozilek's Return in the side, but Humans get out of the 2 damage really fast...
Played against humans a few months ago and the match feels unwinnable.
Thalia makes sweepers slower, most of their creatures are non-fetch push-proof. Reflector mage is a pain in the ass and the new Meddling Mage + Freebooter plan can lock you out of the game entirely. I am not even sure if adding more maindeck bolts and Damnation on the sideboard is a good idea because the deck has so many ways to disrupt your gameplan;
It's a matchup that feels realy, REALLY bad for Grixis. Perhaps it's better for the 5 color jund version.
And since I'm talking about cutting delve threats, I'd like to say that I have a REAAALLY bad relationship with Thought Scour. It's like a recipe for frustration.
Hi there! I also have a strong dislike toward Thought Scour. It's been a large amount of tilt fuel or disappointment fuel for me as I've played the deck. Sooo to fix this, I did a little bit of my own changes: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/09-11-17-grixis-deaths-shadow/
I personally LOVE Search for Azcanta in this deck. Helps fuel delve in a way that I'm happy with, and in the late game it helps me find answers to threats I need to clear out of the way before I can seal the deal. (It's also helped me dig for a K-command to shock for lethal.) It can be a bit slower, but it fits my playstyle for the deck. Been personally considering adding a either W or G splash for either
A. White for Path to Exile, Geist of St.Traft, and other potential SB options.
B. Green for Goyf, a Maelstrom Pulse, and SB cards like Abrupt Decay and Golgari Charm
Please let me know what you think about this.
I have been trying to no thoughtscour version of the idea, testing about 30 match, as well as back in the past I play grixis delver experience, 4opt4sv3 ghosts can support three delve creatures, four are too risky.
18lands
4ds
3delve
3Wraith
3snap mage
2clique
4opt
4serum visions
I don't really like Clique on GDS because it costs double blue, which can be an issue sometimes.
What are the general thoughts on Tombstalker? It's a little bit slower to play but Flying is a strong advantage in a lot of matchups.
What are your thoughts about Opt and how some lists are cutting Serum Visions for it ?
Is Kolaghan's Command still maindeckable on the current metagame ? What about LotV MD?
What do you think that are the most efficient way to adapt Grixis Shadow to the current metagame?
Actually, You're trading in a little raw speed (Like a T2 Angler) and delve selection for stronger card selection. It's worth giving a try to see how much it affects the whole delve concept. You DON'T need to cut the Delve Threats at all.
@AcademyRuins - The problem with YP Is that it doesn't trigger Ferocious, of which is a key to protect our threats.
The ideal additional threat would need to be a somewhat huge creature with a low CMC (Frost Walker is something close to it but too fragile.) Tarmogoyf is an option, yes, but I think You're better of playing 5C Shadow if you want to play it.
Tell us how it goes as well.
On a few playtests I feel that it makes our delve threats slower but greatly improves our draw quality without spending 2 more slots to cantrips. But I am only gonna be sure about its results and how much it affects the deck after playing 2 or 3 weeks with it.
@Ayiluss - I really think 14 cantrips are too much air for GDS, so I think it's okay to cut 1 opt or 1 visions for TBR.
I want to try to cut the Scours entirely, playing a full set of Opt, Visions and Street Wraith.
Yeah, Call me crazy
I just REALLY wanna see how it goes and on which it improves the deck or makes it worse.
People gather here to share their ideas and have a feedback about them as well as discussing the archetype itself, So I don't see the problem of people sharing their personal brews at all.
Also, the metagame changed, people are trying to find new ways to adapt to it or trying new brews to see where it leads.
I am interested on a sideboard guide though, I've got one but it feels outdated.
- Yes. You will usually always cast Stalker one turn later than Gurmag Angler because it costs 2 + delve rather than 1 plus delve
- No. With a 19-land manabase I've never had issues on casting him due to not having BB. Although I played with 2 Swamps to avoid ghost quarter/blood moon locks.
- Yes. specially early-game.
The thing is: Stalker costs 1 more than Angler and It has its downsides, I admit it and I am okay with living with those downsides.
Sometimes this one turn might cost me the game ? Yeah, I agree. But having a massive flying body is something that is worth on its own in a lot of matchups.
What is the general consensus on the number of Stubborn Denials on main deck ?
I am playing with 3 atm, and it feels great to have when you're ahead on the board but it is a bad topdeck when you are behind.
How many of these do you guys play on maindeck ?
Played a list with 2 TBR main, 2 Tombstalker, 19 lands, 0 opt, 1 Liliana TLH main and 2 Pia & Kiran Nallar on the Sideboard
1-2 vs Skred And Taxes
1-2 vs Jund Midrange
2-1 vs Jeskai Tempo
2-0 vs Burn
2-0 vs Auras
1-1 vs Counters Company
I draw with the company deck because I was too stubborn to concede when I should, and I really enjoyed playing Tombstalker, it won me games that I would've lost with angler such as the Auras, Skred and Jeskai Games.
Pia & Kiran was great against eh Jeskai deck but I couldn't test her much. 4cmc hurts a little, although I admit that we want her on the games that usually go long.
Gonna try 2 P&K Nalaar on my sideboard today.
I agree with you that 19 lands and fewer cantrips seems like the best choice for GDS atm. I've been testing with 10 cantrips and more removals/Lilianas.
Here is the last event's metagame
1 4c Humans
1 8Rack
2 Abzan Midrange
1 Abzan Company
2 Ad Nauseam
3 Affinity
1 Bant Blink
2 Bant Reliquary
4 Big Red
1 Boros Burn
3 Burn
1 BW Eldrazi
2 BW Pox
2 Deathshadow
1 Dredge
1 Eldrazi Tron
1 GW Company
1 GW Hatebears
1 GW Tron
2 Infect
4 Jeskai
3 Jund Midrange
1 Kiki Chord
1 Kiki Nahiri
1 Living End
1 Mardu
2 Merfolk
1 Mill
1 Mono Green
2 Mono White Prison
1 RG Ponza
1 RG Valakut
1 RW Nahiri
1 Skred And Taxes
2 UR Storm
2 UW Control
1 "Vengevine"
The meta feels kinda unfavored for GDS but since it's the deck I have I'll play it.
Also, is JDS/5 Color better against blood moon decks ?
1) Right now it's 3 bolt, 3 push, 2 terminate, 2 dismember. I might change it next saturday.
2) I tried opt a lot of times and, although I liked it, I am not sure if we really want it. As Spooly mentioned in his article, Turbo Xerox is not always a good thing in modern. I'd rather have a business card instead.
3) As much as I think that it's better to run the full playset, I always tend to run 3 Wraiths unless I have a reason not to do so.
4) 2 Maindeck. The card wins me many games.
5) I haven't tested this boy yet.
6) Used to run 1 LTV main and 2 TLH side. Now I run 1 TLH main, 1 side and I am not sure whether I still want LTV. That's more of a meta call and a gameplay perspective.
7) Always run 2 Kozilek's Return and 2 Engineered Explosives.
Went to an 8 man today. 3-0
2-1 vs. Affinity, where TBR won me one game, lost the other with infect damage and the last one i was locked bya chalice for 1, but Tombstalker + Explosives for 0 followed by double bolt won the game.
2-0 Vs Counters Company, not much to say on this one. The Matchup just feels highly favourable
2-0 vs. Abzan Reliquary, just had to make sure that neither Ramunap Excavator or Azusa were played or remained on the battlefield. Again, Tombstalker won me the game.
Flying REALLY helps when you are on a stalemate on the ground.
By the way, has anyone tested Pia and Kiran Nalaar yet?
Funny fact: Humans players on reddit says that the matchup against non-shadow BGx decks are bad matchups.
Such an irony, since DS decks replaced them at the Midrange axis hahahaha
Played against humans a few months ago and the match feels unwinnable.
Thalia makes sweepers slower, most of their creatures are non-fetch push-proof. Reflector mage is a pain in the ass and the new Meddling Mage + Freebooter plan can lock you out of the game entirely. I am not even sure if adding more maindeck bolts and Damnation on the sideboard is a good idea because the deck has so many ways to disrupt your gameplan;
It's a matchup that feels realy, REALLY bad for Grixis. Perhaps it's better for the 5 color jund version.
I don't really like Clique on GDS because it costs double blue, which can be an issue sometimes.
What are the general thoughts on Tombstalker? It's a little bit slower to play but Flying is a strong advantage in a lot of matchups.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Fatal Push
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Kozilek's Return
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Countersquall
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2-0 vs. KCI
2-0 vs. Burn
2-1 vs. Death & Taxes
Although I played the 4 color version this time, some games I simply played the whole grixis plan. Whereas others Tarmogoyf made a huge diference.
I want to try the full 5c version but I'll only have baubles at the start of the next month.
I am planning to use a Grixis variant next time to see how it goes.