MTG Salvation

Quote from WarMachinePrime »

I also agree that proxies are never a solution and I don't support their usage.

Do you mean proxy or counterfeit? There is a distinction there.

I can sharpie Overgrown Tomb on a Forest and that is a proxy. I can print a Tarmogoyf off a website, cut it to shape and slide it in sleeve over a Grizzly Bear and it is a proxy.

A counterfeit card purchased on the gray market can be used as a proxy as well. Is this what you are referring to? That distinction really needs to be made between the two. One is a harmless legal action, the other is a property "crime".

It could be someone in the OP playgroup would love to play a certain deck and a certain card would make that deck function extremely well but lets say it costs 50 dollars a piece. A proxy would let that player enjoy that deck. But his/her playgroup won't allow it. And that is understandable but if I were that player I might think twice and act on being in that playgroup unless some compromise could be made.

I understand the distinction and abhor both (albeit the latter more than the former), because unfortunately, what often starts with one or two proxies in a deck becomes a slippery slope, and then before you know it 10-50% of the deck is Sharpied lands. I've seen people playing decks like that in stores, and it's ridiculous to watch or participate in such (mind) games. I mean, you're not even suggesting Bayou, or suggesting that someone who owns a bayou but doesn't want to damage it proxies a forest in its stead while keeping the original in their binder/box/safe/vault (this I consider understandable and somewhat acceptable for cards now worth over $1000, which is a reasonable threshold, again, so long as the person actually owns said cards and can prove it). Are Overgrown Tombs (a card which has only gone down in price with each reprint) so unaffordable even with the recent reprint and after rotating out of Standard? If so, then I'm sorry to say that top-tier (commander, modern, or pioneer) Magic just isn't for you. I apologize if that sounds elitist (you'd probably think I am since my RTR playset are foils and most of my originals are signed; which I only bought after returning from hiatus in 2010), and I can only assume that someone who isn't buying tombs isn't buying fetchlands either, but think about it this way... Just because someone has a golf bag, a driver, and a friend who wants to be their caddy, that doesn't mean they're entitled to play on any golf course they want for free either which normally charges thousands of dollars in annual membership fees. It may suck and seem unfair (alas, Magic, like life isn't fair), but you can still enjoy the game of golf on the public course (but it still doesn't mean you can borrow irons or other equipment from other golfers if that equipment isn't in your bag), the same way as you can enjoy Magic with restrictions on game pieces and power-level (ie: playing: Arena, Pauper, Peasant, Brawl, or mono-colored decks which don't "need" ABUR duals (to be optimized). The card accessibility argument for those living in smaller towns doesn't even hold up anymore now that players are no longer dependent on their LGS and can simply order virtually any card online from countless suppliers. All they need is an internet connection, and a credit card, a debit account, or Paypal. Don't have an internet connection? Well, that sucks too, but then that person clearly has bigger priorities than trying to get overgrown tombs.

Quite frankly, if someone who claims they want to be a competitive commander player isn't able to afford (or more accurately, isn't willing) to purchase overgrown tomb (or doesn't even want to trade for it, and let's be honest, we all have spare inventory for trade which we don't use but often have a difficult time letting go of regardless), then honestly, they really have no business or excuse for playing it proxied in a physical deck (beyond their own kitchen table). When I go to a store, and sit down with decks which took me over a decade to perfect, the last thing I want to see (even if it's not a sanctioned event) is a dozen Sharpied basic lands amongst my opponents' board states. It makes the game state more difficult to read, but more importantly, it undermines my deck-building efforts and makes me feel like "Why should I bother buying the cards I want to play with when so many others in the community seemingly believe or feel it's their entitled birthright to play with cards they haven't even opened in packs, bought, or traded for?")

We all have budgets, and admittedly, mine may be more than the average player's (in the absence of other expenses, such as a car since I don't drive). Regardless, we all make choices, cuts, and prioritize some cards over others. I myself haven't Sharpied any basics to represent new DFC duals or the Battlebond duals, many of which I haven't picked up yet (Indeed I will eventually, when prices drop). Could they better optimize some of my decks today? Sure! There's no denying it. Several of my commander decks (I have 23 and counting at the moment) are also still missing: wasteland, mana crypt, wheel of fortune, vesuva, revised duals, gaea's cradle, assassin's trophy, vampiric tutor (in fact, none of my black decks have imperial seal), time spiral, and other arguably "auto-include" cards), but until I "bite the bullet" and decide to pay for them, trade into them, or charge them to my credit card, I leave the decks as is (often with slightly inferior placeholders which have similar effects if they exist) commit to restricting any playtesting with cards I don't yet have physical copies of to Cockatrice which provides players the ability to build decks with such cards before actually getting physical copies. It's indeed conflicting because my inner perfectionist wants every deck to be optimized, but fooling myself with proxies means I'm only lying to myself and taking away the goal I'm trying to achieve, which is actually acquiring those cards (which I technically wouldn't have to do if I could easily justify using Sharpied forests as you and others apparently do). Oh well, at least I had the foresight to buy enough memory jars and copies of intuition for $20 before they spiked.)

Why haven't I bought other staple and/or reserved list cards? Good question! As mentioned, we all have budgets with limits, and I've allocated my Magic budget for other cards, ironically, including two foil TSR goyfs which I couldn't resist preordering yesterday at the opening bid as soon as they were priced and put up for sale online (but don't desperately "need" per say, since I already have a non-foil mixed playset, one copy of which is in French), but I bought them anyway because the price was good in lieu of countless other cards which I've had my eyes on for awhile but haven't gotten around to picking up yet for various reasons. Ultimately, for me, it comes down to a price to available quantity to time sensitivity assessment. How fast are opther people buying up certain cards? Which ones can I buy in larger quantities and trade back in 6-12 months at a profit to gets others I want which had since gone down? etc. Lots of questions, numbers to crunch, risks, and believe me...it's no easy formula or calculation. I trust my instincts. If they fail me, so be it. I buy cards when I feel they're at their lowest point. Sometimes that involves preordering, other times it involves waiting for hype around new cards to subside or for older ones to be outclassed (or "split" with color-shifted or functionally identical reprints). Meanwhile, older cards (decent ones) appreciate quicker than new ones (we all know this) and become further and further out of reach, but we all still have to accept the fact that consciously or subconsciously we're choosing not to buy certain cards whilst they're available at certain prices. We all know the player base is increasing an the market is fickle but many among us buy into the Standard power-creep anyways (even though we may be getting some of those cards for other formats). However, just because I'm buying new foils (I also pre-ordered two akroma's memorials which I've never had a foil of before), that doesn't give me the right to proxy RL cards (bayou or otherwise) which I may have neglected or deprioritized in the interim. The onus, and I would even say the responsibility lies within each of us as players (of a collectible card game, the key word being "collectible") to ensure we have all the game pieces with which we'd like to play this game, in whichever formats, archetypes, and levels of competition which are most intriguing or alluring to us.

Building up a collection and completing optimized decks (especially commander) is a long, grindy, incremental process, not something to be short-cutted with a marker or a printer. At the risk of sounding hyperbolic, I actually consider my Magic collection to be my "life's work" (started playing at 13 years old, and I'm 40 now). Is it my "retirement fund"? Inadvertently perhaps, but that was never the goal. The goal was owning the ultimate collection, not necessarily every card ever printed, but enough copies of the cards which I like to build all the decks I've ever wanted while having leftovers to eventually sell and recoup my investment so the decks and cubes I want to keep when all else is gone eventually will have never costed me a penny. Too ambitious? Perhaps, but it's realistically plausible, if (and only if) you're willing to be patient, buy low, and sell high when the time is right.

Even if it takes years to complete a deck....You might even say that it's part of the fun and necessary to feel a sense of accomplishment once the deck is finished and ready to be played to its full potential. Do you really feel satisfied winning with a Sharpied land or some combination of differently Sharpied lands? No. I'm sorry. That's not how Magic is played or how games should be won. Don't misinterpret...I sympathize for players who were late to the game or not born sooner at no fault of their own when some cards were cheaper and easier to get. I'm not saying I like the idea of "pay to win" games either (which is why I also have powered down decks for multiple formats when facing opponents who don't have all the staples to compete with top tier builds). However, I still don't understand why someone who just started playing Magic a year or two or five ago should randomly get full and free access to all the cards (especially the older ones they're not able or wiling to buy) which I and other players like me have had to tirelessly track down, accumulate, trade back and forth, and spend countless hours and thousands of dollars on over a decades-long period in order to play them.

EDIT: This is what Sharpied cards are supposed to look like...

Quote from Obazervazi »

Quote from Werewolf_Rawr »

So much woke in Magic: the Gathering where escapism should be at it's peak. Glad to see so many woke people on this forum too. Glad y'all have a place to remind everyone how with it you are. Product is 100% pandering. Could've released this at any time - but it wasn't, it was done now. And that's why it's off. It has nothing to do with the product itself and some of you can't see that. That being said, this is nothing to be surprised about from WOTC.

Magic is absolutely a place for escapism. What your not realizing is that seeing yourself in the characters is a big part of escapism. Black Magic players deserve escapism just as much as you do. Sure, people can see themselves in characters with different skin color from their own, but that just makes your complaint all the more absurd.

In case you guys haven't noticed, Magic is all about pandering. They literally just released a set pandering to Norse mythology fans, then they're going to pander to Harry Potter fans, then D&D fans, then horror fans. How about when they pander to someone who isn't you, you can just, like, not throw a fit?

Thank you. I'm glad someone pointed out the obvious so I wouldn't have to.

Blessed is he who has both eyes and vision, and shows the blind how to see.
(or something like that)

Quote from JuiceBOX »

Kaya is my favorite MTG character atm, and I am loving that Teferi is back. it is really nice having people of color represented in MTG.

I just wish there was not the showboating to go with all of it, and that things like this could be done in silence and everyone who makes the game and plays the game not bat an eye about it.

Man what a world that would be.

Here's my psychoanalysis...
There are many worlds (and planes) at play, and when some collide, it creates a confusing paradox for certain segments of the player demographic who may suffer from neuroses and have difficulty accepting that WoTC will no longer only pander to the cultural elements, lore, characters, or gameplay mechanics which appeal to them. Suddenly, (perhaps exacerbated by the general frustration some feel during a lengthy ongoing pandemic which offers little if any release valve or outlet for the underlying pent up desire to play live Magic games at events with physical cards,) they feel as though the world(s) to which they escape(d) are now being invaded by an encroaching unwanted force (once again, albeit by something other than Eldrazi or Phyrexians, and perhaps even more frighteningly for them with more regularity). Consequently, they either sincerely lose interest in the product temporarily (understandable and not particularly uncommon), vent their pent up frustration here (because they can't do so by making sarcastic remarks to, or by sharing playful banter with their friends and former adversaries at the LGS during FNM), or feign disinterest because the real or primary reason they're hating on Secret Lair (or any other MTG product) is that not everything in in any player's budget, and obviously, especially during challenging uncertain times, we all have to make cuts (even when deep down we may somewhat like or otherwise want a product). No Magic card is essential for gameplay, let alone for operational security. Sadly, some in the community seemingly also need to emotionally express or justify their passionate dislike for some marketing techniques by hating on such products which don't appeal to them (this is simply a coping mechanism), even though as always, there are products which don't appeal to many consumers, and nobody is forced to buy individual cards, packs, playmats, novelty sleeves, planeswalker bobbleheads, Arena of the Planeswalkers board games, pewter talisman life counters, gift edition bundles, limited edition box sets, or any other Magic product WoTC (or it's licensed affiliates) releases, the same way nobody has to, is encouraged to, or is realistically expected to buy every new limited edition shoe which their favorite shoe company announces and manufactures. Sometimes the shoe fits, and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes there's no more room on your shoe rack for another pair, and sometimes you can't afford to keep buying new shoes so often...and by shoes, I mean playsets of cardboard game pieces.

You buy what you like, I buy what I like, and we're all happy

Quite frankly, Secret Lair is a much better product line than some of its closest predecessors, namely: From The Vault (for many reasons)
-FTV had a worse foiling process (Can anybody possibly disagree?)
-Secret Lairs are often available in both foil and non-foil versions
-Secret Lairs contain a free bonus card (Who doesn't like the fun of opening a random planeswalker?)
-Buying multiple Secret Lair Drops at once can get you additional discounts and value (I got a Verdant Catacombs with my Summer Superdrop. Who doesn't need more fetchlands for free? Thank you Wizards!)
-Secret Lairs come out many times throughout the year offering consumers many more options and variance to mix and match the alternate art cards they want for their collections as opposed to only being able to acquire one yearly box set (if they're lucky) containing a larger collection of cards with a particular theme, more than half of which I never wanted or used.
-Secret Lairs are actually priced fairly because they don't each contain as many cards as FTV which always had a huge mark-up above MSRP at most retailers
-Secret Lairs are available directly to the consumer without having to physically travel to a store or line up the day they go on sale as was often the case before, since stores would refuse preorders and always say it was "first come, first served"
-Secret Lairs are also available in multiple quantities to anyone with a credit card (in more countries) who wants playsets of certain alternate arts unlike FTV which was always in very limited supply at stores, a hassle to get, and often sold out the day they were released, sometimes unofficially reserved for "regulars" who weren't even there with cash in hand when stores opened on release days and other interested customers were. At one store (since closed), just buying FTV20 required winning a lottery. Strategically, I had to bring a friend with to increase my odds, and fortunately, they won one of the few available for sale so I didn't go home empty handed. At another, I often argued with store employees on release days who kept them for themselves, opened them to only sell singles, or refused to sell unopened boxes on the shelf for some other reason. Suffice it to say I got several FTVs over the years, but with many headaches along the way, experiences which I'll never forget because they were so ridiculous, and I'm very happy I never have to relive that nonsense again with print runs now being made to order and shipped directly to me, as I always hoped and wanted it to be.

Also, Teferi isn't back. In fact, he never left.
He does however excuse that your linear understanding of space and time might lead you to such a flawed perception or premature conclusion.

Quote from cyberium_neo »

Was Shalai suppose to be black?

Was anyone "supposed to" be born?
Was anything "supposed to" exist?
Why ask silly rhetorical questions?

In different quantum realities, Shalai can be black, Caucasian, Hispanic, indigenous, immortal, Jewish, genderless, hermaphroditic, or Bolas's toothbrush.

Rumor has it Jesus was dark-skinned, but has been misrepresented time and time again in artwork ever since. Some say he wasn't a messiah or never existed at all.

Does any of it really matter, especially in the case of art depicting fictitious characters?
Why is the Abrahamic God traditionally depicted as male and bearded? Presumption? Invention? Imagination?
Do they not have razors in heaven? It he hiding a scar on his chin?

Are Llanowar elves "blackfishing" now because older artwork showed they had lighter skin and red hair?
Maybe the lighting is just bad in that forest?

How characters are depicted in artwork and literature shouldn't be taken for fact as we know that even history isn't always written with accuracy.
We create the images we want to see, we want others to see, or that we believe others want to see.

Ultimately, it's all about how the audience consuming that artwork wants to imagine their heroes and villains, and now, as always, we can see them every which way.

Different representations and different interpretations which invoke or address conversation about controversy and various social issues are what make great art. By that metric alone, this artwork and product have already succeeded on announcement before even going on sale or fully revealing its contents.

Still not impressed?
This is a great product and guaranteed to go up in value as is the case with all Secret Lairs, so anyone who doesn't order several will be losing out.

This Shalai will definitely go in my Uril deck as I like the red in the art, but I'll be keeping my original foil in Selvala whose art includes more green.

How does "decorated" not also include artist-signed cards?!
Oracle Errata Needed

Momir Vig, Simic Visionary approves!
But why does this naga have so many arms?
Is this the reincarnation of prophet of kruphix?

A curious card indeed.
Admittedly, I love the art!

However, this card looks better than it is at a first glance.

Personally, I think it's worse than lotus petal, mox amber, mox opal, mox diamond, mana crypt and sol ring, but better (in some decks) than chrome mox, mox tantalite, mana vault, and grim monolith.

Let's be honest...this is only a good draw a few turns into the game if it wasn't in the opening hand, and a dead card in the late-game.
Eventually, time will tell, but I'm not particularly pleased this card was printed.

Real commander players want mana rocks like coalition relic, chromatic lantern, sapphire medallion, mind stone, talisman of progress, and other ramp/color-fixers like dryad of the ilysian grove, not nonsense auto-includes like this and arcane signet which only waste a slot and decrease variance. Command tower is at least flavorful as an auto-include, printed at common, and somewhat more important for the health of the format because the best dual lands are reserved and still legal.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't commander supposed to be (and remain) a fun, social, and more casual format with many possible (and often interesting and unexpected) lines of play? Since when did it become just another format being pushed at the consumer base of hyper-competitive Spikes?

Does Wizards want every competitive Commander deck moving forward to simply be as many ramp mana-rocks as possible and a few select finishers?

Either way, I'll only trade for or buy this abomination of a card at a discounted price from the gamblers I know who love cracking open packs and don't want to keep it.

And if this lotus gets banned, I still couldn't care less because it never should have existed in this first place.

At least it's useless in Ulamog, Kozilek, and other colorless decks!

Y'know how Wizards failed us with this product?
It was the perfect opportunity to reprint unholy grotto as a much needed bonus full-art expedition which would've easily boosted sales.
For the love of zombies, how come only the survivors got special treatment?

For me, Forgotten Realms invokes nostalgic memories of creating my own world and narrative with Unlimited Adventures. Those were the days!

Wait...I think I just figured it out!
We're going back to Innistrad next year, right?
Innistrad has lots of zombies.
Therefore, Rick must be the new Odric!
Just look at the mechanics... It makes perfect sense!
Chances are all of these cards will be in the upcmoing Innistrad with different names, and these will be the alternate art/alternate name preemptively released promo variants!
Riddle solved!
Case closed!

Wow. What makes everyone in the world entitled to get Magic cards (new or old) at the same price and rate of distribution?
That's a ridiculous argument, assumption, and a completely unrealistic expectation (for any product or service).

These cards... like many things, are seasonal fruit.

Do I complain that I can't get my favorite Malawi coffee, freshly squeezed tangelo juice, kiwi, coconut, or ripe cherries for cheap all year long when I reside in an area where none of them grow? By your logic, shouldn't I? I mean...they're all legal for a fruit salad! Instead, I'm happy I get apples and bananas at all, and I drank other coffees during the three year interim period I couldn't get what I really wanted to brew.

Now I know what you're thinking..."it's apples and oranges", and "we're brewing decks here, not coffee"

But seriously, globalization has really spoiled the lot of you complainers, and this is a perfect example of how ridiculous these complaint threads are.
As if WoTC owes you, me, or anyone else anything to begin with!
What's next?...A complaint thread about how some artists won't sign your cards for free?
As if Wizards doesn't have a right to make decisions about their own product distribution based on what research they determine is profitable for them (and not trivial community feedback from a small but vocal segment of players who for (insert random reason here) feel certain products aren't "fun", for them). The audacity!

Who among you thinks they're so much better than Maro at doing his job?
You all had a better game designs than Richard Garfield and your own printing facilities before all this began too I'm sure.
Hasbro is run by a bunch of game theory amateurs as well, right?
Geez. How ungrateful can you be?
You should all be polishing then kissing busts of their faces before saying a prayer every morning thanking them for contributing to your apparent need for this particular form of card-playing recreation! Don't like Magic anymore? Play some poker and try to make a profit that way. At least you won't have to build a multi-hundred to multi-thousand dollar deck to play!

I'd tell those among you who can do a better job than Maro to please can stand up now, but I suspect you'll all remain seated in silence because deep down you all know you're just a bunch of know-it-all whiny armchair critics who either missed the boat on cards which are now out of your price range on the secondary market (which is a reflection of the immense increasing popularity of this game and your own neglect to buy them sooner, not poor market anticipation or printing decisions by Wizards), or/or because now you can't afford to keep up with every new product Wizards designs and releases which you apparently don't even want or need to begin with.

Anyone who thinks everything should have the same rate of distribution and cost the same price everywhere completely ignores the logistics of business, where products are created or manufactured, shipping, warehouse storage, and employee costs, the costs of setting up storefront retail distribution networks, insurance, security, etc. Some regions simply don't have a dense enough population, or the average person has little if any interest in a particular product (assuming the demographic even has disposable income for such an expensive recreational hobby), and as such, Wizards won't plant their flag in some places, logically and reasonably so.

There are plenty of things available elsewhere that you and I can't get or have to pay extra for, so why is this any different or any more surprising or upsetting?

Want my advice?
Focus on fundamental priorities at a time like this; what you can do and can get to feel emotionally and operationally secure, not what you can't get or the "what if" drama of possibly sitting at a table with a commander player who uses a general you don't like which isn't even competitive and shouldn't disrupt your in-game strategy. Honestly, if you get so easily emotionally triggered by these or other cards, just take a deep breath, don't buy them, ignore their existence if you must, and refuse to play with anyone else who wants to. Then perhaps you'll have that sublime epiphany when you're sitting all alone (or with likeminded haters) and finally see how petty and immature you look and feel afterward.

Meanwhile, I'm almost motivated to order extra copies of this product purely out of spite just so I can sell them at a markup to the have-nots who complain today that they don't want them but will eventually, almost inevitably regret not buying them when they were cheaper as they scramble to get them once secondary market supply starts to dwindle and prices climb quickly which those who are smart enough among us already know will almost certainly be the case!

EDIT: I honestly wish Wizards would finally print a Legendary artifact called The World's Smallest Violin so I could include at least one copy in every sideboard!

Cavern of Souls back in Standard!!!

Tribal players rejoice!!!

I wonder if people like Norman Reedus and Jeff Goldblum are keenly aware of their existence as random magic cards.

Ojer Axonil, Deepest Might is going straight into my Purphoros, God of the Forge deck.

I can't wait for the Secret Lair "Lord of the Unreadable" superdrop.

The reasons why something is or isn't printed are myriad. However to cut to the heart of the question. Wizards decided they didn't want to be limited to the existing card pool when designing jump start or commander. So they leave the option to design cards specifically for that product. When you see a card in that but not the normal set. It wasn't excluded from the main set. It was designed for the other product and was almost certainly never in contention to be in the main set. Can a card be designed for the main set, be cut and added to the supplemental set? Yes, but those are exceptions not the rule.

Why do they get "fake" rarities? There are rules for rarities in supplemental sets that they follow so they are accurate to the product they are printed in.

Why don't they reprint them faster? There are literally thousands of cards in need a reprints. If you focus on one card there are dozens or hundreds of places to reprint it. However, as I said, there are thousands of cards in need of reprint. The specifics of how they choose what and when to reprint aren't public but whenever you think "X was the prefect place why didn't they reprint there?" Remeber that X was also the perfect place to reprint at least a dozen other cards, probably hundreds. So it's not a simple thing to reprint what you have found to be an egregious failure to reprint.

I was not commenting on financial value, rather usability of those cards in actual gameplay.

Emmy is indeed played in 4c control but its a deck that surfaced again only after WOE release, it's single copy, in sideboard, and only in some of the lists for 4c control. So fringe appearances in comparison to rest of the SL.

Quote from TheGroglord »

Does anyone get an AI generated vibe off the brainstorm? The right wrist kinda has a watch, the instruments at the bottom kinda tail off and something just feels a bit uncanny-valley about it. Avons into his digital/mixed-medium peices right? I wouldn't be surprised if he is experimenting with it a little.

The art itself isn't bad, bit not my thing. Emmy and Angel look nice though.

Edit: I had a closer look at the higher res art, and the instruments look less AI generated than I thought at first.

Check the article I linked. There is comment from Avon regarding scene on the artwork. I was not aware about Avon working with some photomanipulation but you might be very much spot on with your initial guess - maybe he painted over photo with a watch on and did not realized that. By the way those are renders so a lot of the details will be lost on physical cards. I'm not sure people will be able to see the connection to the flavor text at all.

Thank you Sheldon for all the beautiful moments your format gave to me and my friends.

They only refer to planeswalkers with gendered pronouns, legendary creatures always used it when referring to themselves. I believe its due to non-legendary creatures using it and them trying to keep it consistent with creature cards.

Another Magic set, another group of cards mysteriously leaking well ahead of its release.

This is the first megadrop where I don't really want any of them. And though I love the art, it's damn near impossible to read Tevesh or Jaska.