I skimmed grape's play in Ghostbusters, off the grid 3, and Dark and Stormy, and didn't see anything. He even used the word "feel" 7 times in the first 30 posts of this game versus 6 times in the first 30 posts of Ghostbusters. I'll probably do a deeper dive if grapefruit wagon is still strong near End of Day, but for now it seems like an inefficient use of time.
--- @Grapefruit Can you list some more of your town and scum games?
@Killjoy Could you go into detail on your tomsloger townread? If you have a purpose behind not elaborating, can you say when you think you can say it?
--- Unoffical Votal Grapefruit21 ( 5 ): Rhand (117); M1ndreaver (187); tomsloger (257); Vaimes (314); Rodemy (321); LnGrrrR ( 2 ): Reaverb Tau (226); Lastwhisper (229); KamikazeArchon ( 1 ): Grapefruit21 (203); Killjoy ( 1 ): Rumanshi (73); Lastwhisper ( 1 ): KamikazeArchon (61); Rhand ( 1 ): LnGrrrR (8); tomsloger ( 1 ): zdtsd (133); Tubba Fett ( 1 ): Killjoy (124);
Vote Rumanshi
For poorly explained votes (particularly the Lastwhisper one) and low-impact activity.
Is there like a reason why all your pop-ins come with this like, "GOTCHA" tone? Im hoping I get a chance to talk to you in real time? Is there a reason why you are posting unofficial vote counts, is that a common thing for you? also really finding it weird, that you pointed out his RVS as one of the deciding factors for you vote here, I get the low-impact activity point, aka "interjecting in the thread with stuff that doesnt particularly do anything"
I don't have a reason for the "gotcha" tone, I think it's a side effect to make concise cases with low info. The unoffical votals are just because it's something I can do easily and may be helpful for Town. (I'm storing the votals for future analysis, so it's literal copy-and-paste).
Killjoy - /barning grapefruit's read here, tomsloger has discussed why it would be valid even if grapefruit is scum. I haven't even checked the spectator thread mentioned in it. I do want to mention that on the list of Things Scum Lie About, reads based on somebody fulfilling publicly available criteria is way way at the bottom of the list.
Lastwhisper - Done a 180 on them. They went into more detail about how they read entrances to the thread, and while I don't agree with their evaluation it's makes me believe that #15 was made with a (real) weak reason, which removes the contradiction with #20. I also like their activity since I voted them.
Rod - I like his aggression, it felt like he was trying to get the game moving. I don't think he was making the most effective posts, but that struck me more as a fault in ability rather than motivation. Also I remember a couple people saying they disliked his aggression (particularly lastwhisper), which struck as wrong footed - I've found it's Town who want to be more aggressive, since Town is the faction which needs to generate info.
Tubba - I think his few posts demonstrate a surprising amount of Town mindset, I was particularly surprised by #97 as making Lastwhisper throw a strong light on his internal thought processes.
Grapefruit - I think his read on Tom is weird and overconfident, but I like most of the rest of his content. His readslist seems thought-out and consistent with previous posts, and he doesn't feel like he acted as my scumbuddy in our last game together (although it has been quite a while since then.) I particularly like his townread of Killjoy - it moved Killjoy up to townread, when as scum grapefruit could have just stayed silent. Vote on him was mostly for science anyway since Rumanshi was going nowhere.
Figure them out later tier:
tomsloger, M1ndreaver
Both are strong players who have been Town enough for now. Probably not going to try to lynch either of them this Day phase.
Rhand tier:
I have things I both like and dislike about Rhand. I think he's a little too focused on grapefruit/tomsloger, and in #149 he declares that M1ndreaver could be "naive town" which is incongruent to his focus on tomsloger, since tomsloger mentioned M1ndreaver's history as a strong player just a few posts ago in #138. I'm happy to leave him alone for now and see what he does in the future.
AFK tier:
August, EtR, Rumanshi, Vaimes zdtsd
Despite being the only one who's literal-literal vanished, I'm giving August the most slack because the rest showed up and did conspicuously little.
Rumanshi is at the bottom (most scummy) of this tier.
Below average Townpoints tier:
KamikazeArchon:
First there was their vote on Lastwhisper (#61) which was based on a newer post of Lastwhisper (#57). This kind of "I'm going to me-too on a large bandwagon, but state my reasoning is ~completely different from everybody else~ is something I've seen much more from Mafia trying to fake activity then town. #193 even has Kami state that #57 was the SOLE reason he voted Lastwhisper, which I frankly find unbelievable. I don't see how any Townie can look at all the fuss around Lastwhisper and have ZERO opinion.
Additionally #125 strike me as a bad faith of argument, it seems pretty obvious to me Lastwhisper's change in their read of me made his questions about other player's townreads of me less relevant, but in #125 Kami tries to paint this as behavior showing a lack of consistent approach to the game.
LnGrrR - Almost entirely made of weak questions and not moving the game forward. I don't think there's one proactive LrGrrR has taken this game - even his Lastwhisper vote was total RVS. #170 is a whole mess of scum tells - it's information instead of analysis, it's fighting against the existence of information by declaring the reasons the wagon came into existence weak without suggestion alternatives, and LrGrrR states that LrGrrR can't call Tubba scummy for quiet because LrGrrR is being quiet, which is much more a Mafia mindset than a town one. (PS: LrGrrR got called on the information instead of analysis and wrote #192 in response, which predictably declares most votes on the wagon nulltells.)
im not sure if random voting is part of my character either way
Unless you have some bizarre reading where "character" isn't a synonym to "meta"? Also, I don't know how to respond to the request to "explain again" without a hint on how the first explanation didn't work.
PS: I'd prefer to stop talking about my tomsloger read, it's pretty weak. I've been talking about it because other players have been asking questions on it.
Tom didn't say he disliked the state of the game tho. So how is he losing townpoints?
That post got moderately mangled between thought and keyboard, what I meant to say was "tomsloger and LastWhisper both made the conspicuous choice not to move the game forward, such as by not using their votes effectively."
LastWhisper demonstrated he disliked the gamestate by saying it, while tomsloger made several low-impact posts + has enough experience I expect him to identify the tepid thread mood as bad for Town. (Notice in #18 he states that not random voting is his meta, rather than arguing whether it's good or bad for Town.)
LastWhisper's version of slacking off struck me as less consistent with a Town mindset. If a Townie was about to post #20, I would expect them to attempt to directly solve the problem (make a good RVS vote) or dig deeper into why the RVS state was bad and give a more nuanced response. (Maybe, "I'll be back in a few hours when the game has actually started" or such)
tomsloger meanwhile could be making low-effort posts because they're easy, because they enjoy them, etc. I don't have citations, but from my vague impression of reading tomsloger's games this fits my mental model of him as either alignment. This still makes it scumtell - I would still expect more effort to make an impact on the game from a Town!tomsloger than a Scum!tomsloger, because Town!tomsloger has more reasons to do so - but a less reliable one.
--- @Killjoy Yes in my mind everybody starts with townpoints.
--- @LastWhisper Can you go into more detail on your Rodemy read?
First, this assumes that the town believe the claim. I think when talk about games and balance we have to look at believably. Hindsight is 20/20 but this town almost lynched that role on multiple days.
Secondly, this role has nothing to protect. There are no power roles worth protecting with its life.
Third, this role is guaranteed to die and thus is a weaker doc in the end game scenario.
1) If Marshmellow Man claims D1, Town should be more than willing to wait until probably MYLO/LYLO before lynching him. Delaying a scum lynch is costless as long as the delay doesn't last until overrun. As the Days go on it's increasingly likely to role is dead.
2) Protecting people who are widely townread is a reasonable use of Bodyguard, even if they're vanilla. Causing the Mafia nightkill to target random people would be a big nerf even in all-vanilla setup. Bodyguard is a step in the "random nightkill" direction - it hijacks the nightkill to (the player who randomly rolled Bodyguard) if mafia try to kill the protected target.
3) Don't disagree, but I think Marshmellow Man > Doctor even factoring that in.
@zdtsd @LnGrrR What are your top 2 townreads and top 2 scumreads?
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@Grapefruit Can you list some more of your town and scum games?
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Unoffical Votal
Grapefruit21 ( 5 ): Rhand (117); M1ndreaver (187); tomsloger (257); Vaimes (314); Rodemy (321);
LnGrrrR ( 2 ): Reaverb Tau (226); Lastwhisper (229);
KamikazeArchon ( 1 ): Grapefruit21 (203);
Killjoy ( 1 ): Rumanshi (73);
Lastwhisper ( 1 ): KamikazeArchon (61);
Rhand ( 1 ): LnGrrrR (8);
tomsloger ( 1 ): zdtsd (133);
Tubba Fett ( 1 ): Killjoy (124);
Grapefruit21 ( 3 ): Lastwhisper (115); Rhand (117); M1ndreaver (187);
LnGrrrR ( 3 ): Vaimes (9); tomsloger (182); Reaverb Tau (226);
tomsloger ( 2 ): EtR (29); zdtsd (133);
August ( 1 ): Rodemy (208);
KamikazeArchon ( 1 ): Grapefruit21 (203);
Killjoy ( 1 ): Rumanshi (73);
Lastwhisper ( 1 ): KamikazeArchon (61);
Rhand ( 1 ): LnGrrrR (8);
Tubba Fett ( 1 ): Killjoy (124);
Town tier:
Killjoy - /barning grapefruit's read here, tomsloger has discussed why it would be valid even if grapefruit is scum. I haven't even checked the spectator thread mentioned in it. I do want to mention that on the list of Things Scum Lie About, reads based on somebody fulfilling publicly available criteria is way way at the bottom of the list.
Lastwhisper - Done a 180 on them. They went into more detail about how they read entrances to the thread, and while I don't agree with their evaluation it's makes me believe that #15 was made with a (real) weak reason, which removes the contradiction with #20. I also like their activity since I voted them.
Rod - I like his aggression, it felt like he was trying to get the game moving. I don't think he was making the most effective posts, but that struck me more as a fault in ability rather than motivation. Also I remember a couple people saying they disliked his aggression (particularly lastwhisper), which struck as wrong footed - I've found it's Town who want to be more aggressive, since Town is the faction which needs to generate info.
Tubba - I think his few posts demonstrate a surprising amount of Town mindset, I was particularly surprised by #97 as making Lastwhisper throw a strong light on his internal thought processes.
Grapefruit - I think his read on Tom is weird and overconfident, but I like most of the rest of his content. His readslist seems thought-out and consistent with previous posts, and he doesn't feel like he acted as my scumbuddy in our last game together (although it has been quite a while since then.) I particularly like his townread of Killjoy - it moved Killjoy up to townread, when as scum grapefruit could have just stayed silent. Vote on him was mostly for science anyway since Rumanshi was going nowhere.
Figure them out later tier:
tomsloger, M1ndreaver
Both are strong players who have been Town enough for now. Probably not going to try to lynch either of them this Day phase.
Rhand tier:
I have things I both like and dislike about Rhand. I think he's a little too focused on grapefruit/tomsloger, and in #149 he declares that M1ndreaver could be "naive town" which is incongruent to his focus on tomsloger, since tomsloger mentioned M1ndreaver's history as a strong player just a few posts ago in #138. I'm happy to leave him alone for now and see what he does in the future.
AFK tier:
August, EtR, Rumanshi, Vaimes zdtsd
Despite being the only one who's literal-literal vanished, I'm giving August the most slack because the rest showed up and did conspicuously little.
Rumanshi is at the bottom (most scummy) of this tier.
Below average Townpoints tier:
KamikazeArchon:
First there was their vote on Lastwhisper (#61) which was based on a newer post of Lastwhisper (#57). This kind of "I'm going to me-too on a large bandwagon, but state my reasoning is ~completely different from everybody else~ is something I've seen much more from Mafia trying to fake activity then town. #193 even has Kami state that #57 was the SOLE reason he voted Lastwhisper, which I frankly find unbelievable. I don't see how any Townie can look at all the fuss around Lastwhisper and have ZERO opinion.
Additionally #125 strike me as a bad faith of argument, it seems pretty obvious to me Lastwhisper's change in their read of me made his questions about other player's townreads of me less relevant, but in #125 Kami tries to paint this as behavior showing a lack of consistent approach to the game.
LnGrrR - Almost entirely made of weak questions and not moving the game forward. I don't think there's one proactive LrGrrR has taken this game - even his Lastwhisper vote was total RVS. #170 is a whole mess of scum tells - it's information instead of analysis, it's fighting against the existence of information by declaring the reasons the wagon came into existence weak without suggestion alternatives, and LrGrrR states that LrGrrR can't call Tubba scummy for quiet because LrGrrR is being quiet, which is much more a Mafia mindset than a town one. (PS: LrGrrR got called on the information instead of analysis and wrote #192 in response, which predictably declares most votes on the wagon nulltells.)
Vote LnGrrR
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Vote grapefruit
Would like more detail on your tomsloger read, as others have mentioned.
Lastwhisper ( 3 ): Rodemy (45); Grapefruit21 (56); KamikazeArchon (61);
LnGrrrR ( 2 ): Rhand (10); Vaimes (9);
Grapefruit21 ( 1 ): M1ndreaver (19);
Killjoy ( 1 ): Rumanshi (73);
Rhand ( 1 ): LnGrrrR (8);
Rodemy ( 1 ): Lastwhisper (15);
Rumanshi ( 1 ): Reaverb Tau (80);
For poorly explained votes (particularly the Lastwhisper one) and low-impact activity.
----
tomsloger stuff:
I'm pretty sure I have never played with tomsloger before.Except he did:Unless you have some bizarre reading where "character" isn't a synonym to "meta"? Also, I don't know how to respond to the request to "explain again" without a hint on how the first explanation didn't work.
PS: I'd prefer to stop talking about my tomsloger read, it's pretty weak. I've been talking about it because other players have been asking questions on it.
For example, what do you think of Rodemy and Lastwhisper?
LastWhisper demonstrated he disliked the gamestate by saying it, while tomsloger made several low-impact posts + has enough experience I expect him to identify the tepid thread mood as bad for Town. (Notice in #18 he states that not random voting is his meta, rather than arguing whether it's good or bad for Town.)
LastWhisper's version of slacking off struck me as less consistent with a Town mindset. If a Townie was about to post #20, I would expect them to attempt to directly solve the problem (make a good RVS vote) or dig deeper into why the RVS state was bad and give a more nuanced response. (Maybe, "I'll be back in a few hours when the game has actually started" or such)
tomsloger meanwhile could be making low-effort posts because they're easy, because they enjoy them, etc. I don't have citations, but from my vague impression of reading tomsloger's games this fits my mental model of him as either alignment. This still makes it scumtell - I would still expect more effort to make an impact on the game from a Town!tomsloger than a Scum!tomsloger, because Town!tomsloger has more reasons to do so - but a less reliable one.
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@Killjoy Yes in my mind everybody starts with townpoints.
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@LastWhisper Can you go into more detail on your Rodemy read?
for declaring he dislikes the current game state in #20, then doing nothing about it.
(tomsloger did this too and is also losing townpoints from it).
for not having avatar
Everybody knows that's second only to adorable animal avatars on the list of mafia's avatar tactics.
(Joking aside, please pick an avatar zdtsd).
1) If Marshmellow Man claims D1, Town should be more than willing to wait until probably MYLO/LYLO before lynching him. Delaying a scum lynch is costless as long as the delay doesn't last until overrun. As the Days go on it's increasingly likely to role is dead.
2) Protecting people who are widely townread is a reasonable use of Bodyguard, even if they're vanilla. Causing the Mafia nightkill to target random people would be a big nerf even in all-vanilla setup. Bodyguard is a step in the "random nightkill" direction - it hijacks the nightkill to (the player who randomly rolled Bodyguard) if mafia try to kill the protected target.
3) Don't disagree, but I think Marshmellow Man > Doctor even factoring that in.