SaffronOlive of mtggoldfish had made a budget land destruction deck based around the interaction between panharmonicon and creatures with ETBs that destroy lands (Avalanche Riders, Acidic Slime).
Now I love the way this deck works. It has a really cool synergy and Eldritch Evolution is one of my favorite cards.
My question to you guys out there who are experienced brewers is:
How would you personally improve this deck while maintaining the core strategy of Panharmonicon and Eldritch Evolution? (no budget considerations, and note this deck isn't meant to be tier 1 or anything like that, but it is meant to do it's cool thing as consistently as possible- fun deck/kitchen table style).
Wanted to know about Genesis Wave and its interactions with things that it hits.
Say I cast it with X=3. The top 3 cards are Forest, Eternal Witness, Primal Command. The Primal Command is not a permanent and will go to the graveyard. Can I take that very same Primal Command to my hand with Eternal Witness's ETB ability?
If I repeat the above scenario, can I also opt to use Eternal Witness' ETB to grab the Genesis Wave that I just cast back to hand?
More Witness. I have Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx on the battlefield. Gen Wave X=3, Forest, Nykthos and Eternal Witness. I use the legend rule to keep the new Nykthos. Can Eternal Witness ETB ability retrieve my legend ruled Nykthos from the graveyard back to my hand? Same deal if I replace a Garruk Wildspeaker with another copy, can I get the old, dead planeswalker back?
If I have 9 cards left in my library and I Genesis Wave for X=10, does that cause me to lose immediately? I'm thinking no because Gen Wave isn't making me draw them, I'm just revealing them off the top which sounds functionally different enough that I think I wouldn't lose until I can't DRAW specifically off the top of the library.
Thanks for assistance in advance and feel free to include any other rulings re: Genesis Wave (or cute tricks that can be done with it) if you'd like.
Does anyone have videos uploaded of them piloting the deck? I don't think I will build this but I am interested in learning how the deck works for general knowledge.
I want to make a build that centers around genesis wave since that card is super fun to play with. Can you guys critique the build below and offer any suggestions? Not really worrying about sideboard for now just the mainboard.
Playing Gideon and exploding him into the emblem right away feels bad usually cause you're essentially playing a 4 mana glorious anthem which is not ideal. Obviously sometimes that's the correct call for the situation and Gideon is there over the anthem because of the versatility but it's hard to not want to at least squeeze some tokens out of him first before crunching him up. Shame that we can't safely +1 him to keep him and get the anthem reliably as opponents will usually have dead removal that can suddenly be live to take him out.
tarot you could try 1 LLanding and 1 Zealous Persecution. In builds similar to yours I think the 5th anthem at instant speed is really nice for board blowouts or pushing lethal. Plus it makes even more sense to run it since you'll need the extra juice cause the S//F tokens are footsoldiers.
Has anyone playtested Liliana of the Veil and disliked her and taken her back out of the control build?
I can raise my hand and say yes.
I tried two copies of her for about three months when my local was seeing a lot of bogles. It's good in that match-up, but it conflict with Lingering souls and especially Spectral procession. Turn 3 is usually the turn we want tokens out. If you can get in the attrition game, she's pretty fantastic, but I found her lacking and slow anywhere else. I'd rather run Collective Brutality or simply run more 1CMC discard/spot removal.
If you're really fishing for nontargeting removal, my personnal favorite is Runed halo. Blessed alliance also works pretty well.
Thanks for that answer. I had a feeling that she would feel that way. 3CMC is a tight spot on the curve. She does seem really powerful at crippling combo decks, especially since once she hits the board there's a lot of urgency on the side of the opponent needing to get rid of her through a wall of tokens.
Why not Nihil Spellbomb over the Relics? And what's your plan vs. burn, just bring in the 2 brutality? Maybe the Zealous as well? I don't know if you posted your mainboard, but I take it you're mainboarding some Auriok Champions then since otherwise I think the matchup vs burn post board looks weak.\
EDIT: On a sidenote, kinda proud of the cute little play I did today. Was going to die to bitterblossom burn and was 1 token short of lethal. Then on opponent's end step I realized I could sundering growth my own bitterblossom and the populate would give me lethal on my turn. That was a feels good play and little (rare) instances like that tip me in the SG direction in the "SG vs disenchant" debate. Being that we usually have enchantments around we can flex growth to be an extra token generator (conditional though it is, it's not an irrelevant line).
That’s right. I tend to explain it to the opp. So I’ll say something like “play simic, I get 3 amulet triggers and 1 bounce trigger. Stack bounce 1st so it comes off last. 1st amulet trigger untap and add 2” etc etc.
Hey davius, looking at your sideboard plan (thanks for sharing it by the way) do you have tips for when amulets are sided out. What are the major changes to account for when playing this deck without amulet, are there any major changes in lines of play that need to be noted?
Honestly I don't mind using Sorin's -2 to pump out a vampire and then casting a second sorin and +1ing him. I've done it a few times lately (mostly to be mana efficient and only when the game is really close to over is it is an overextending play) and it hasn't felt bad yet. Yeah maybe Innistrad is worth trying again since his emblem doesn't cost him his life which means he might stick around to pump out tokens, potentially even dropping another emblem. If he doesnt' stick around at least he drew the opponent's attention.
What are the arguments against 4 Sorin? Playing him at 3 now and he never feels like a bad draw and has been seriously stealing games lately. I think I'm going to try it out when I can get the 4th. I think Gideon is maybe not as powerful in the control build. You can instantly pop Gideon for the emblem or pump out non flying tokens. A 4 drop emblem is not ideal obv. Can't really turn him into a creature without risking him being live for removal like path.
Also I think I might even go up to 25 lands. Currently 24 seems just about right, but the problem is sometimes you want to have extra mana so you can play a spell while holding up some of our 1 cost removal like fatal push and path to exile (or zealous persecution if you play it).
The other thing is that if we do flood out we have a lot of mana sinks. Things like flashbacking finish/lingering souls or animating vent, triggering vault, westvale abbey if that's your flavor etc
Could also open the door to go back to 3 or 4 spectral procession (I am currently only playing 2) with the more consistent land drops.
I'd love to test/play Liliana of the Veil but man her price is just not reasonable right now. I don't mind spending money on the game but I'm not gonna justify buying high, that's just bad finance.
If I have 3 Amulets out and a simic in my hand, what is the correct way to declare how you as the active player want things to stack in order to get 6 mana out of simic by playing it only once.
I think it's
Simic bounce effect first, then each amulet trigger. Then stack resolves in reverse order and you tap for land as a state based action between each amulet trigger and finally bounce simic (or another land) to hand.
It's an interesting idea. I don't think he has a mainboard spot but maybe a sideboard slot as someone to bring in against matchups that you feel are going to be very draw-go so that you do have that threat of out-resourcing your opponent through hand advantage in addition to the board advantage that bitterblossom brings to the table. I don't think there's that many draw go's around currently but if it is in your local meta this could be something to try.
I feel like if you want to go though planeswalker control route that perhaps it's better to focus on getting a gideon lock established and letting bitterblossoms take over slowly.
Is it pronounced "Kah-Lee-Tass" or "Kah-Leetus" or something else?
SaffronOlive of mtggoldfish had made a budget land destruction deck based around the interaction between panharmonicon and creatures with ETBs that destroy lands (Avalanche Riders, Acidic Slime).
This is the link to it: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/857220#paper
This is the list:
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Wood Elves
4 Avalance Riders
4 Acidic Slime
1 Thragtusk
3 Inferno Titan
4 Panharmonicon
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Cinder Glade
11 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Bonfire of the Damned
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Witchbane Orb
2 Thragtusk
Now I love the way this deck works. It has a really cool synergy and Eldritch Evolution is one of my favorite cards.
My question to you guys out there who are experienced brewers is:
How would you personally improve this deck while maintaining the core strategy of Panharmonicon and Eldritch Evolution? (no budget considerations, and note this deck isn't meant to be tier 1 or anything like that, but it is meant to do it's cool thing as consistently as possible- fun deck/kitchen table style).
Some ideas I had for improvements:
Adding some other stronger ETB cards like:
Huntmaster of the Fells
Slyvan Primordial (can hit off evolution of a 5 drop like acidic slime, serves as a finisher kinda like inferno titan)
Go Abzan for finishers like:
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Iona, Shield of Emeria
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Or perhaps some more land hate/ramp support with something like Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
Say I cast it with X=3. The top 3 cards are Forest, Eternal Witness, Primal Command. The Primal Command is not a permanent and will go to the graveyard. Can I take that very same Primal Command to my hand with Eternal Witness's ETB ability?
If I repeat the above scenario, can I also opt to use Eternal Witness' ETB to grab the Genesis Wave that I just cast back to hand?
More Witness. I have Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx on the battlefield. Gen Wave X=3, Forest, Nykthos and Eternal Witness. I use the legend rule to keep the new Nykthos. Can Eternal Witness ETB ability retrieve my legend ruled Nykthos from the graveyard back to my hand? Same deal if I replace a Garruk Wildspeaker with another copy, can I get the old, dead planeswalker back?
New scenario, I cast it with X=6, top 6 cards are Forest, Forest, Forest, Courser of Kruphix, Courser of Kruphix, and Courser of Kruphix. How much life do I gain? 0? 9?
If I have 9 cards left in my library and I Genesis Wave for X=10, does that cause me to lose immediately? I'm thinking no because Gen Wave isn't making me draw them, I'm just revealing them off the top which sounds functionally different enough that I think I wouldn't lose until I can't DRAW specifically off the top of the library.
Thanks for assistance in advance and feel free to include any other rulings re: Genesis Wave (or cute tricks that can be done with it) if you'd like.
I want to make a build that centers around genesis wave since that card is super fun to play with. Can you guys critique the build below and offer any suggestions? Not really worrying about sideboard for now just the mainboard.
4 Arbor Elf
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Eternal Witness
4 Wistful Selkie
2 Primeval Titan
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Oath of Nissa
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Planeswalkers
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
8 Sorceries
4 Genesis Wave
4 Primal Command
9 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
Thanks for that answer. I had a feeling that she would feel that way. 3CMC is a tight spot on the curve. She does seem really powerful at crippling combo decks, especially since once she hits the board there's a lot of urgency on the side of the opponent needing to get rid of her through a wall of tokens.
EDIT: On a sidenote, kinda proud of the cute little play I did today. Was going to die to bitterblossom burn and was 1 token short of lethal. Then on opponent's end step I realized I could sundering growth my own bitterblossom and the populate would give me lethal on my turn. That was a feels good play and little (rare) instances like that tip me in the SG direction in the "SG vs disenchant" debate. Being that we usually have enchantments around we can flex growth to be an extra token generator (conditional though it is, it's not an irrelevant line).
Hey davius, looking at your sideboard plan (thanks for sharing it by the way) do you have tips for when amulets are sided out. What are the major changes to account for when playing this deck without amulet, are there any major changes in lines of play that need to be noted?
Also I think I might even go up to 25 lands. Currently 24 seems just about right, but the problem is sometimes you want to have extra mana so you can play a spell while holding up some of our 1 cost removal like fatal push and path to exile (or zealous persecution if you play it).
The other thing is that if we do flood out we have a lot of mana sinks. Things like flashbacking finish/lingering souls or animating vent, triggering vault, westvale abbey if that's your flavor etc
Could also open the door to go back to 3 or 4 spectral procession (I am currently only playing 2) with the more consistent land drops.
I'd love to test/play Liliana of the Veil but man her price is just not reasonable right now. I don't mind spending money on the game but I'm not gonna justify buying high, that's just bad finance.
If I have 3 Amulets out and a simic in my hand, what is the correct way to declare how you as the active player want things to stack in order to get 6 mana out of simic by playing it only once.
I think it's
Simic bounce effect first, then each amulet trigger. Then stack resolves in reverse order and you tap for land as a state based action between each amulet trigger and finally bounce simic (or another land) to hand.
That's correct right?
I feel like if you want to go though planeswalker control route that perhaps it's better to focus on getting a gideon lock established and letting bitterblossoms take over slowly.