To be honest, I don't get these posts with "I'm running pretty much the standard decklist, help," because there really isn't a standard list, especially when it comes to the SB. So it's really hard to give feedback. Generally speaking though, Chalice doesn't do anything against Jund and Wurmcoil is very good. Counterspells are also good and Repeal can be amazing. It should be a good matchup for U-Tron unless they just BBE into Fulminator every time. Another card that's amazing against them is Spreading Seas. Seriously, the card wrecks their mana. Cut them off green or double black sources and you'll get some free turns early on. Like any other 3+ colour decks, Sundering Titan will often just end games on the spot.
It's been worth playing in the MD for awhile now that Grixis/4C DS, Mardu Midrange, and Jeskai midrange/control has been like 30-40% of the meta. It just was never good against E-Tron heavy meta, which was almost a year ago.
Gideon was so good in a lot of matchups though. Could be played 1/1 split and then one JTMS in the SB? I feel like low to the ground aggro decks are gonna see some growth in the meta.
Has anyone ever thought of the position of Condescend as of late? Do we really need to play the full playset when the format's skewed towards cheaper interactions? In my last 1k event I found the card to be dead half the time and great the other. It's pretty easy for a good player to play around Condescend and I'm very torn whether or not to keep the full playset or cut 1 for a removal or a Supreme Will. I feel like our reliance on Condescend is what heavily deters the consistency of the deck because we CANNOT miss a land drop for the card to be good. And the existence of Field of Ruin in every control mirror seems to make the matchup a lot harder. It's a lot tougher for us to keep tron online and have more mana than the opposing control player and I feel like Condescend is very lackluster when you compare it to their spells like Logic Knot and Cryptic Command. Is it just me?
That's not the point of JTMS though. You don't just slam it down on turn 4 and expect to win the game (you probably will though if it sticks). It's another finisher for blue control decks. Brainstorm is banned for a reason and to get a Brainstorm effect every turn is insane. That's why Search for Azcanta is so powerful and Azcanta control mirrors become all about trying to get it off each players' field. All that being said though, I don't think U-Tron is the right shell for JTMS. We don't really need him.
I'm gonna try cutting a Condescend for another Supreme Will and play 3/3/3/3 split between Condescend, Remand, Repeal, and Supreme Will. I have a 5k Open coming up soon and I'll be packing my U-Tron for it. I might bring in some Jace's Defeat in the SB.
@NuBlkAu: How do you find playing Dismembers in main? Are they more often a useful card or a dead card?
I mean, Lantern Control is where it's at because of the community of players building and refining the deck. It's won a Pro Tour because of it. I believe U-Tron could win a major too if we refine the deck more as a collective mind. Like Shoktroopa's said, his decklist is very tight, but it doesn't mean that we can make some drastic changes or bring in some spicy innovations to it.
I don't think red needs to be splahsed for yet another finisher with U-Tron. U-Tron's very diverse in wincons and I don't think it needs anymore. We don't necessarily have a hard time once we can get a wincon out. It just needs more consistent ways to get there.
I've also played other control decks like Jeskai, UW, and Blue Moon and I seriously have to agree with @NuBlkAu. There's so many tools and variety of answers when you play those decks, but U-Tron is very very narrow in its game plan. We don't have good removals as Mono-U so we rely heavily on counterspells or Repeal effects. We lack the flexibility of other decks because it's not like we can "cycle" our counterspells when we face an opponent with uncounterable spells or uninteractive lines (i.e. Aether Vial). Jeskai for instance can just burn the opponent and cycle or gain life with Electrolyze and Lightning Helixes. These control decks thrive, even though their wincons are quite lackluster than U-Tron, because of the cheap, effective interactions and just amazing cards like Cryptic Command.
And if we start talking about splashing then it gets very jumbled because the mana base is already super tight. I think the deck would be so different that it would have to be a different archetype.
I do think that Snapcasters are insanely good in the current meta and very undervalued for U-Tron. With Field of Ruin or playing Talismans, we don't have much trouble getting to double blue. I would LOVE to play Cryptic Command, but I think this is a bit of a stretch? But as mono-U, spells with multiple mods in the mainboard are the best options because it lets us adapt without having to sideboard. Cards like Supreme Will I think is undervalued in that regards. Most people play 0 and maybe 1. The card digs 4 at instant speed and it's got a Mana Leak mod. It plays well with Tron because of it costing 2 + 1U like Thirst. I've been playing 2 and it's been great just for the dig for answer option in matchups where counterspells are utterly useless. I think cutting a Condescend or two in replacement for a Supreme Will is also a viable option, especially as we are in a meta with cheap interactions.
Edit: Well, Jace has been unbanned. What do you guys think it'll do to the format and our deck?
Hello fellow U-tron players,
Concerning Humans, do you think playing 2 Torpor Orb in side would do the trick?
I mean, I already play 2 repeal/1dismember/1contortion maindeck plus 2dismember/1contortion in sideboard, and 2 Oblivion Stone/2 Ugin/1 rift maindeck. That's already quite a few removals.
But I didn't play a lot against humans, and I'm a bit scared considering their 4 cavern/4 vial maindeck.
The orb would turn their deck into a grizzly bear.deck (minus mantis rider that is still a beater I guess...)
It also turns down my simulacrum/snapcaster/magus/gearhulk, and I find it hard to cut those bodies from the plan to fight against their threats...
What are your plans against Humans?
Removals and sweepers. Torpor Orb is very interesting though, but what else would you bring it against? It feels a bit narrow unless you're literally facing Humans or Spell Quellers all the time. All is Dust has been pretty great for me and Repeal is very good especially during combat to delay the damage. I think playing a second Ugin seems like more and more viable
shoktroopa has spoken You are right, There is no more than 5 flex slots - the list is really stock right now. This deck needs just smooth play and a patience.
Fast aggro is a challenge but there are still chances to win - chalice of the void, all removal spells from SB helps to go through.
I'm testing right now sorcerous spyglass in place of single pithing needle (I like the card against decks where I usualy put chalice on 1) - in my testing the "looking" part is really nice I found needle effect to be really important in my meta (gideon tribal / lilianas / other tron decks and esspecialy GW knight of reliquary ponza deck).
@spreading seas: I run 2 in SB and it is very good card even against 4/5 color decks (like humans or traverse shadow) messing with their mana really buy us some time.
Do You ever tried playing all is dust in SB? I'm lookin for some nice sweeper option against smth like Elves/5C humans - they are so fast :/
Im currently playing 2 O-Stone´s and 2 Ugin´s main for that as my anti-aggro package.. works good for me tbh - but I have also thought about a 1/1 split of O-Stone/All is dust... wasn´t able to test with that yet.
Tried All is Dust at a 1k event (around 80 players). It's very good. Nice option vs white decks that bring in Stony Silence or Humans with Meddling Mage.
It also comes a turn faster too, unless you risk dropping o-stone with 3 mana and blow it up later. Also could be flashed back with Snapcaster for value.
Don't think Lotus Bloom is the card for us. It would make it into a different, more big-mana oriented, deck. I feel like a lot of U-Tron players undervalue Snapcasters because we have a hard time achieving double blue sources early on. The card is great for bringing card advantage AND consistency. It also allows us to block at instance speed. On the same note, I feel like Nimble Obsturctionist is also undervalued. I can't think of much else from top of my head, but cards that gives us more choices at the cost of adding 1CMC like Supreme Will are very good for us.
Serum vision is a no good because of the chalices we play that usually go on 1 (this is also why we don't play 1 mana counter spells as much like spell snare, dispel, etc).
I'd like to start a discussion to really improve our deck to the next level because I've been stuck thinking about it.
I've been playing Mono-U Tron for almost a year now and I've done pretty decent. I've won a 1k event, went 2nd another time, and now I'm preparing for GP's and bigger 3k/5k events. Despite my very small successes though, I've had some horrible events too. And the thing that I find the hardest to deal with is the deck just losing to itself.
The deck is so inconsistent, especially considering how it's a mono-blue deck. I seriously think this is the main reason that we don't see Mono-U Tron show up in larger events that play 10+ rounds, even though the deck has tremendous potential. I mean yea, it's great when you just straight-out win on turn 4 or turn 5 with a threat and a counter to back it up. But we rely so much on the fact that we're going to counter a spell with Condescends to scry 2 or cantrip with Remand or Repeal to delay the tempo of our opponent. I've had multiple times where I would mulligan to 5 or even 4 to find myself with unplayable, uninteractive hands (or inconsistent mana sources). Most of us don't play Serum Visions (and let's not kid ourselves with Opt, it doesn't dig deep enough for what our deck does) so we rely heavily on our Condescends and Cantrips for our early game setup. And that's the problem. If our opponent doesn't play a spell or just have more mana than us in the early game, we fall behind. Compare that to other popular control decks like Jeskai (both draw-go and Geists), UW, Blue Moon, or Lantern, we play far less reliable cantrips. It feels so much narrower than the Tier 1 control decks. And yes, even more so than Lantern, there I said it. I think what our deck needs is flexibility and consistency and I want to find out ways to do that.
I've brought this discussion up before, but I personally think Remand is now unplayable in this meta. The mana curve of the meta have gone down significantly and it's really tough to get any value out of the card. You often will basically use 2 mana to cycle it. Remand is indeed great though against mid-range decks like Jund, Abzan, or E-Tron, but their showings aren't that strong and all counterspells are great against them anyways. I've been playing Supreme Will instead and I love the way you can dig 4 and not even have to reveal the card. I think it's an okay replacement, though I wish there was something better.
The other problem is our access to blue source, but I think this gets so much easier with Field of Ruin. It is basically a Ghost Quarter loaded with the ability of a "fetchland" that doesn't decrease our overall mana.
My last problem, especially at the last 1k event, was dealing with early game creatures. I've always had 2x Spatials in my main 60, but these are very mediocre. I wish we had access to Path or Bolt. I've contemplated the idea of splashing white or red (even black) for that reason, but the mana base is already a struggle as it is and it gets so much harder with the splash. I've also wondered about having more Ballistas, but it seems like a clunky idea as they're also quite expensive. But they are very flexible.
What do you guys think and how can we improve this deck even more from what Shoktroopa has started?
Hello guys! I will try Nikolich Draw-Go list tomorrow but I would like to add the 4th Snapcaster, the 4th bolt and if possible a maindeck vendilion clique! What would you take out? I personally do not like the single spell snare, it is too casual in 1 copy only! Concerning the second spot I was thinking about negate and/or do not even adding the 4th bolt cause we already have 3 helixes and 2 electrolyze! What do you also think about the 2 supreme verdict maindeck? Do they worth? Thanks for your opinions!
The Negate and the Snare is probably the right option. Supreme Verdict depends on the meta. Against a field of Humans and Death's Shadow it is quite good.
@NuBlkAu: How do you find playing Dismembers in main? Are they more often a useful card or a dead card?
I don't think red needs to be splahsed for yet another finisher with U-Tron. U-Tron's very diverse in wincons and I don't think it needs anymore. We don't necessarily have a hard time once we can get a wincon out. It just needs more consistent ways to get there.
I've also played other control decks like Jeskai, UW, and Blue Moon and I seriously have to agree with @NuBlkAu. There's so many tools and variety of answers when you play those decks, but U-Tron is very very narrow in its game plan. We don't have good removals as Mono-U so we rely heavily on counterspells or Repeal effects. We lack the flexibility of other decks because it's not like we can "cycle" our counterspells when we face an opponent with uncounterable spells or uninteractive lines (i.e. Aether Vial). Jeskai for instance can just burn the opponent and cycle or gain life with Electrolyze and Lightning Helixes. These control decks thrive, even though their wincons are quite lackluster than U-Tron, because of the cheap, effective interactions and just amazing cards like Cryptic Command.
And if we start talking about splashing then it gets very jumbled because the mana base is already super tight. I think the deck would be so different that it would have to be a different archetype.
I do think that Snapcasters are insanely good in the current meta and very undervalued for U-Tron. With Field of Ruin or playing Talismans, we don't have much trouble getting to double blue. I would LOVE to play Cryptic Command, but I think this is a bit of a stretch? But as mono-U, spells with multiple mods in the mainboard are the best options because it lets us adapt without having to sideboard. Cards like Supreme Will I think is undervalued in that regards. Most people play 0 and maybe 1. The card digs 4 at instant speed and it's got a Mana Leak mod. It plays well with Tron because of it costing 2 + 1U like Thirst. I've been playing 2 and it's been great just for the dig for answer option in matchups where counterspells are utterly useless. I think cutting a Condescend or two in replacement for a Supreme Will is also a viable option, especially as we are in a meta with cheap interactions.
Edit: Well, Jace has been unbanned. What do you guys think it'll do to the format and our deck?
Removals and sweepers. Torpor Orb is very interesting though, but what else would you bring it against? It feels a bit narrow unless you're literally facing Humans or Spell Quellers all the time. All is Dust has been pretty great for me and Repeal is very good especially during combat to delay the damage. I think playing a second Ugin seems like more and more viable
Tried All is Dust at a 1k event (around 80 players). It's very good. Nice option vs white decks that bring in Stony Silence or Humans with Meddling Mage.
It also comes a turn faster too, unless you risk dropping o-stone with 3 mana and blow it up later. Also could be flashed back with Snapcaster for value.
Serum vision is a no good because of the chalices we play that usually go on 1 (this is also why we don't play 1 mana counter spells as much like spell snare, dispel, etc).
I've been playing Mono-U Tron for almost a year now and I've done pretty decent. I've won a 1k event, went 2nd another time, and now I'm preparing for GP's and bigger 3k/5k events. Despite my very small successes though, I've had some horrible events too. And the thing that I find the hardest to deal with is the deck just losing to itself.
The deck is so inconsistent, especially considering how it's a mono-blue deck. I seriously think this is the main reason that we don't see Mono-U Tron show up in larger events that play 10+ rounds, even though the deck has tremendous potential. I mean yea, it's great when you just straight-out win on turn 4 or turn 5 with a threat and a counter to back it up. But we rely so much on the fact that we're going to counter a spell with Condescends to scry 2 or cantrip with Remand or Repeal to delay the tempo of our opponent. I've had multiple times where I would mulligan to 5 or even 4 to find myself with unplayable, uninteractive hands (or inconsistent mana sources). Most of us don't play Serum Visions (and let's not kid ourselves with Opt, it doesn't dig deep enough for what our deck does) so we rely heavily on our Condescends and Cantrips for our early game setup. And that's the problem. If our opponent doesn't play a spell or just have more mana than us in the early game, we fall behind. Compare that to other popular control decks like Jeskai (both draw-go and Geists), UW, Blue Moon, or Lantern, we play far less reliable cantrips. It feels so much narrower than the Tier 1 control decks. And yes, even more so than Lantern, there I said it. I think what our deck needs is flexibility and consistency and I want to find out ways to do that.
I've brought this discussion up before, but I personally think Remand is now unplayable in this meta. The mana curve of the meta have gone down significantly and it's really tough to get any value out of the card. You often will basically use 2 mana to cycle it. Remand is indeed great though against mid-range decks like Jund, Abzan, or E-Tron, but their showings aren't that strong and all counterspells are great against them anyways. I've been playing Supreme Will instead and I love the way you can dig 4 and not even have to reveal the card. I think it's an okay replacement, though I wish there was something better.
The other problem is our access to blue source, but I think this gets so much easier with Field of Ruin. It is basically a Ghost Quarter loaded with the ability of a "fetchland" that doesn't decrease our overall mana.
My last problem, especially at the last 1k event, was dealing with early game creatures. I've always had 2x Spatials in my main 60, but these are very mediocre. I wish we had access to Path or Bolt. I've contemplated the idea of splashing white or red (even black) for that reason, but the mana base is already a struggle as it is and it gets so much harder with the splash. I've also wondered about having more Ballistas, but it seems like a clunky idea as they're also quite expensive. But they are very flexible.
What do you guys think and how can we improve this deck even more from what Shoktroopa has started?
The Negate and the Snare is probably the right option. Supreme Verdict depends on the meta. Against a field of Humans and Death's Shadow it is quite good.