Maybe I'm trying too hard to copy the legacy list but hear me out! Abrupt Decay helps game one against Devoted Druid, Elves and other creature based decks. It's good against unflipped Search for Azcanta (I think destroying it the turn they play it is the most value-play). Scryb Ranger + Dryad Arbor gives you infinite chumpblocks. Maybe it's too cute but I think it's worth a try.
1-off Thalia, Guardian of Thraben could work out. I played her in a humans build (Bant) as a one-off and never had the issue of drawing too much copies.
The Manabase trades some basics for the shocklands. Not sure if 7 fetchlands are enough. Yeah, we will give some % to burn but I think Courser of Kruphix will balance it.
The true black splash comes from the sideboard! Basically it's just Thoughtseize and Zealous Persecution. Imho discard is pretty strong in this meta. Zealous Persecution could be Engineered Explosives but the instant is more versatile and can push the last points of dmg. The maindeck should be balanced enough and we can board special hate against bad matchups.
Maybe the list needs a curve topper - I really like Archangel Avacyn! I think Thalia, Heretic Cathar is a flex spot and I'll try the angel instead of her.
Tomorrow I'll playtest the list a little bit - you'll get some feedback afterwards
So, is this the primer for "GW Valuetown"?
I'm a huge fan of the deck! I really enjoy playing and watching it!
What I don't understand: why is no one splashing black? I mean the splash is mostly for free and even if you just splash for your sideboard you can play a "stock" list and have a better sideboard against combodecks (which I think are a bad matchup).
Todd Stevens has mastered this deck but I think with a little more black cards he will finally win an open with "Valuetown"
After my first post in march I realised that 4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is just bad (in modern). Don't get me wrong - I love this card. But as a 4 off she's not that good in modern. I'll test the deck this week and will post my current list/thoughts!
The 2x Duress is due budget. I only own 2 copies of Thoughtseize. I thought about IoK but this card isn't able to hit Karn, Ugin, Damnation or Verdict.
Thrun vs. Colossus is interesting! I thought Colossus fits better because it's an "elf". Thrun could be handy versus controldecks.
I'm not fully sold on Damping Sphere. Isn't the drawback too big and aren't we faster then tron/can slow them down with discard?
@johngag
congrats to your result!
I think Tenshirou said a lot that affects you too. I'm not a big fan of the Unclaimed Territory. I would consider 2x green fetchland to have more access on black sources if needed. Also your Sideboard consists of a lot of non-elves which could to akward situations with the Unclaimed Territory.
I think the main is fine. The manabase could be tweaked a little bit. I try to get my hands on 3 extra copies of Cavern of Souls to fight through Chalice. What Lands would you cut? 2x Forest and 1x Blooming Marsh?
I'm toying around with 2x Elves of the Deep Shadow to provide black mana. I'm thinking on cutting 2x Nettle Sentinel... it's one of the cards I board out the most.
For the Meta I expect a lot of UWx and Jund.
Some thoughts on my sideboard:
-Duress & Thoughtseize against any combodecks and also Control to get rid off massremoval. Also Duress comes handy against Burn. I thought about Stain the Mind but I'm not sure if this card is to slow. What's your experience?
-Fracutring Gust & Reclamation Sage against Affinity, Lantern, KCI and other Artifactbased decks. Would you bring RecSage vs. Burn to handle Eidolon?
-Abrupt Decay & Dismember for the mirror and GWx Companydecks also for Merfolk, DnT and Humans. The Dismember could be a third Decay but Dismember can deal some Eldrazi.
-Relic of Progenitus against all GYdecks. Not sure if 2x Scavenging Ooze are better in this spot. Relic draws a card while Ooze is more flexible and is also very good against burn. Maybe I'll swap the Relics.
-Golgari Charm for the mirror, Affinity, Pyromancer and as a sweeper protection. I like this card very much because it's flexible. With a Archdruid on the board you will whipe your opps board then the whole. Sold on this card.
-Chameleon Colossus against all BR decks and also autowin against Shadow.
-Heroic Intervention is one card I will cut for sure. It is to reactive and the chance of drawing a one off is pretty small. I guess this could be another copy of a previous mentioned sideboardcard.
Would like to hear your feedback
If I have a little bit more time and settled for the final list I would to showcase a short SB-Guide. It helps me a lot to do it before an event so I can focus on playing and not thinking to much while sideboarding!
After a long time I finally ordered the last pieces to finish the Deck.
My deck is based on the deck Vikram Kudva played in Phoenix. I want to play Knight of the Reliquary because it's one of my pet cards... I hope this fits here.
First of all some cardchoices I would like to discuss:
-No Jace, the Mind Sculptor because aint nobody got dineros fo' that! Well, I don't think it's that important for this deck. Yes, Jace is very powerful but you can still grind without him and win midrange wars.
-Wooded Foothills is a budget cut for Misty Rainforest. Dont know if I'm going to buy the playset Misty Rainforest or buy Verdant Catacombs to switch to the Abzan Combo with Finks.
-The 2 drop slot: Voice of Resurgence to have an edge against control when they shut off my combos. In my normal Knightfall list I play 3x Voice to battle all those controldecks. Not 100% sure on this here. Scavenging Ooze fighting for a slot in the maindeck with Qasali Pridemage. Ooze will give me more edge in midrange games and against graveyard strategies. I don't if it's correct to play Ooze over Pridemage. Selfless Spirit against sweeper and the Spirit can be found with Chord of Calling. I think thats good enough.
-Reflector Mage super good against a lot of decks! Maybe I will go down to 3 copies but I will play him over Spell Queller. Why? I think Spell Queller is not in the best spot right now. At least in my LGS. There are to many decks with max. removal. Also Spell Queller is a reactive card and if I cant combo-off I want to be the active part pressuring my opponent.
If I cut a Reflector Mage I will swap it with a 3rd Eternal Witness or a Tireless Tracker.
-Rhonas the Indomitable over Walking Ballista because Rhonas has better synergies with Knight of the Reliquary. Do you think adding another combo-pay-off is good?
-Island I had spots where I couldn't do anything because I had no access to blue under a Blood Moon. Furthermore you will see always a Field of Ruins. After some considerations I think I'm going to cut the Island and play Gavony Township. I play no Jace and double blue is not that important. In the end basicly both are "colorless".
-Botanical Sanctum truth is I don't know why it is played. I build the deck via netdecking and never asked questions. It's good against burn but it's not fetchable and can't be sacced for a Knight activation. Im considering a 2nd Breeding Pool. What do you think?
Sideboard:
The biggest issue is because of the inexperience with this deck. Not finished checking the whole thread (I'm working on it) but I don't really know when to cut the Vizier/Druid combo, when to cut the whole Knightfall combo, when to cut just few pieces and so on. Also people like Kelvin Chew have a "narrow" Sideboard which comes from the Knightfall-playstyle and other have a toolboxish-sideboard which you play in the Abzan Vizier decks. Can't settle which direction I will go. My sideboard for now is more of a toolbox.
The deck is super fun and challenging! Also you can win veeeery undeserved by ripping of the missing piece from the top of your deck Played it yesterday the first time in a 5 round tournament and finished 3-2. Losing both games because I'm a complete moron ... but it was a lesson for the next time!
Thank you for reading and I appreciate every comment!
After crying out loud when Jace was unbanned I sleeved up Knightfall again because I felt Jace was not that busted as I thought. Took the following list to FNM:
Finished 3-1 winning against G-Tron (2-0), UWr Control (2-0) and Jund (2-0). Lost to Affinity (0-2).
Due the lack of affinity I thought 1 Stony would be enough. Will go up to 2 and add a Settle the Wreckage. I lost both games to resolved Etched Champion.
My MVP of the evening was Geist of Saint Traft! It was a fun addition and in the UWr Match my opponent had to cast Supreme Verdict on my Geist
Before the FNM I had 4x Spell Queller in the deck but changed it last minute because I face a lot of removal right now. Queller is better against the combo matchups but in that case I try to combo first
Played some small tournaments in my LGS and I like the deck pretty much! After talking to a lot of players if Jace is the new thing in modern the response often was that Bloodbraid Elf is way better!
The Deck is good at fighting Control decks and is able to grind. With some sideboard changes I think you can handle the combo matchups. The maindeck burn is super sweet! Not sure on the 4th Loxodon Smiter - the smiter was always good but I think playing a Tireless Tracker or Courser of Kruphix for cardadvantage.
This is the first brew without any playtesting. I'd love to play 1-2 swords of (...) but a) I don't have them b) don't want to buy them because c) I don't think they are worth it.
The Sideboard is tweaked for our "friendly league". Taking this deck to a wider competative tournament I would add some Thrun, the Last Troll and/or Loxodon Smiter to fight against UWx decks. I want to squeeze some copies of Collective Brutality in the Sideboard to fight Combo/Burn. Maybe for the Kitchen Finks or Mirran Crusader.
The longer I think about the deck I'm starting to think it could be actually good! The only concern, in a competativ environment, is the rise up of Bloodbraid Elf... I'm playing her in my Naya build... damn this card is soooo good!
After playing Bant Knightfall and having a playset Bloodbraid Elf I gave Naya Zoo a try. This is my list - The sideboard is on the head so it's not 100% accurate:
First of all the lacking of Tarmogoyf - no moneyz fo dat - also I think it's better in BGx shells because they're running more Sorceries and your opponent discards other types in the yard. Scavenging Ooze - my Goyf "replacement". Everytime I untapped with Ooze it won me the game. Bloodbraid Elf - holy cow! The worst hit was a Noble Hierarch but that's ok as we get a Exalted trigger, mana and another body. Bloodbraid was also good against UWx decks because my opponent had to decide which spell he wants to counter. Really good card! Loxodon Smiter - put 4 copies in the main in expectation of UWx, Jund and one guy playing 8-Rack I don't want to lose to - Boltproof body was sometimes better on turn 2 then a Knight of the Reliquary. Against aggrodecks it was a solid blocker!
What was no that good?
No card draw. Unfortunately the +1 is only look at the top card. A scry would be just insane. Tireless Tracker is a good card but for now I'm not sold on Tracker instead of Smiter
Tron: got badly beat up by tron Bant Knightfall gave me Reflector Mage which I'm missing. Maybe put some Molten Rain in the board to cascade in.
No basic Mountain: it cost me a game against UWR Control... added one basic mountain in my list
Lightning Helix was in fact the "worst card" in the deck. I would consider this as my flexslots - I'll try 2x Atarka's Command or 2x Boros Charm... closing out games with burn is just to good!
I have to build a propper sideboard. What would you recommend against Token/go-wide strategies like UR Pyromancer or Elves. Are 4 Bolts enough to handle them or is a "mass removal" needed?
I think it's time to say "RIP in Peace" Knightfall </3
The unbanning made me really sad... first of all from a financial position after investing in Knightfall and on the other hand I'm afraid you have to play Jund or get some Jace to compete with the new meta that will evolve. My biggest fear is that the meta will change to stock archetypes like "Midrange=Jund/Jace", "UXx Control", "SuperAggro that loose to anything else".
I feel forced to abandon Bant (or sell my kidneys for JtMS) and play something else. I have a playset Bloodbraid Elf at home and started to build Naya Big Zoo... sadly I only have two kidneys and have to sell some other organs for a playset Tarmogoyf
Sunday I will carry my new beloved deck to the grave... it lived short but was awesome!
Unfortunately there's no GP Lyon for me... but I'm goning to a, I think, 50+ player event. Played some games with Bant Knightfall and took some extra money to upgrade my deck - here is the current list:
I except a lot of Pyromancer decks and a lot of UWx...
Last FNM I finished only 2-2 winning against GW Stompy and Storm / losing to UR Pyromancer and Soulflayer. The creature Matchup felt pretty good, especially with 3 copies of Reflector Mage (thank you @Dejadal). Storm was also ok. A resolved Eidolon is game. Lil Thalia felt always good - even in the GW Stompy game I was able to cut him off Dromoka's Command and Path.
In the Soulflayer Match I held a bad hand with one mana and two Birds in game one. Game two was close and I'm not sure if Scavenging Ooze is enough... that's why I want to have a Bojuka Bog - What do you think?
In the UR Pyromancer games I held slow hands (no one drop, some 2/3 drops) and he denials everything I do. Game two he played Blood Moon and had Countermagic for days. Playing against any kind of blue decks is somehow a big problem for me...
Also I would love to play a singleton Island but after all upgrades I have no $$$ for a proper manabase... I think it's too optimistic with only one blue fetchland
It's cool beeing in communication with other players! Helps a lot
Kind of an interesting list.. Relying on Black creature-based disruption in the main and Thoughtseize/Brutality post board. Assuming he was heavily metagaming towards Storm/Tron while still leveraging the strength of Company/KOTR/Tracker vs. Shadow decks.
Looks pretty cool! Do you know which place Kelvin ended?
Tested some games against a friend on GW Hatebears wich was a favorable matchup due our awesome airforce.
Round 1 vs. Thing Ascencsion 1-2
Game one he managed to get into the combo and milled me. Game two I kept a hand with 3 counterspells and drew the 4th counter and some Spell Quellers. Game three I had no removal for Thing in the Ice.
Round 2 vs. Saheeli Combo 0-2
Game one he stalled the board with Wall of Omens and had enough removal for my airforce. Game two I honestly threw away because I was in full-tilt-mode. Super unpleasant opponent and I just wanted to get out of the Shop to calm down and get some fresh air.
Round 3 vs. GW Hatebears 2-1
Played against my friend. Game one I screwed up one combat step and forgot about Leonin Arbiter. Game two and three he I had all Spell Quellers in the world wich where too many to handle.
Round 4 vs. ???
No one showed up and I playtested again with my buddy because he had a bye.
Deck felt really good. It's hard to tell if a hand is keepable or not - time will tell. I think I could win the Ascencsion match but didn't know when to play Spell Queller exactly. Also the 2nd game vs Saheeli he resolved a Sun Titan and I could have eat two removal from his graveyard... but I let Sun Titan resolve due to super-tilt - I know it should never happen... working on it.
This is why I think Voice of Resurgence is great especially in Knightfall. It grows bigger with time and takes advantage of those times you draw a Bird of Paradise, which usually does nothing but now can grow the Elemental token.
Hitting a CoCo with two dorks in the Humanlist was ok because they were pumping your champion/Lieutenant. Never saw it like you said with the Voice! I just orginized a second Voice for todays FNM!
I also like the Negate in the main. How does it work out for you?
I'm still unsure about the Thalias though. I don't know how they work with the deck. Also the 3 Ceremonious Rejection and 3 Flashfreezes in the sideboard are ingenious. Any thoughts?
Thalia is a good card! Would definitely try it - the question is what to cut?
Some quick suggestions after looking over your decklist:
1. I think the proper land/dork configuration is 8 dorks/22 Lands or 7 dorks/23 Lands. You're on 7/22. I would bump that up to 7/23, especially with 2x tireless tracker drawing extra lands is totally fine for you. An active Knight also helps thin your deck once you get to 3 or 4 lands.
2. I just noticed there's no Horizon Canopy. Make that your 23rd land. It's cheap now. No excuse not to have it. It's important with Knight, and always comes into play untapped.
3. 3 Scooze is a lot. It's not as good in this deck as it is in decks like jund. I would just play 1. or 0.
4. I would trim a qasali pridemage down to 1. I don't really like the card, but some people swear by it. It's a personal preference I guess. I would go up to 3 VoR though.
5. I would cut Vendilion Clique completely. It's semi-hard to cast and not always great, so I eventually moved mine to the sideboard. And then once it was there, I realized it's not very impactful so I didn't think it was worth a SB slot either.
That's about it. SB looks fine. I would personally try and add another Unified Will or 2x Negate, but it's personal preference. Good Luck!
1. Thank your for the input! Yesterday I played a few games and had often the problem with flooding or starting with 5 lands out of my 7 - on 23 lands. Today I will try 22 lands. Maybe I can get my hands on the 4th Hierarch.
2. Yeah I'm totally with you! It's the next thing on the shopping list!
3. The main reason for now is that I have no good other 2 drops. The 2nd Voice is missing and I don't know what else I could play. I get the 2nd Voice this evening so I will cut 1x Ooze or 1x Spirit.
4. See 3.
5. The casting cost seem hard but I hope the Clique is good against combo wich we have a lot in our LGS.
Also I added 2 Negate to the sideboard and cut the Rhox War Monk - I hope Blessed Alliance is good enough against burn!
Hi, all, what is everyone's thoughts on what to replace Reflector Mage? Maybe Deadeye Harpooner instead of Reflector Mage? It's better against decks that use Vial that can just play the bounced creature again. It's slightly easier to cast at 1 white, 2 colourless. I feel there are enough fetches to activate this card.
The major downside, of course, is that the targeted creature has to be tapped. But it combos well with Retreat to Coralhelm.
I'm just finding Reflector Mage underwhelming in certain matchups, and too much of a win-more against Shadow decks, and only a slight deterrent against similar mirror decks.
I don't think it's a good replacement. Sure, the casting is easier but in the worst case you hit her in a Company and your opponent has no tapped creautre/you have no Revolt-trigger. Imo Fiend Hunter is even better than Deadeye Harpooner. Also I'm a huge fan of Reflector Mage.
___
I'm moving from Human Knightfall to classic Knightfall and need some help - here is my current list:
First of all some choice I have to explain: Wooded Foothills over Misty Rainforest - obvious budget cut
2nd Temple Garden - no Canopys at my LGS... so it's budget.
3x Noble Hierarch - I didn't manage to get a 4th Hierarch... What's your opinion on the amount of manadorks? In the Humanbuild 7 was right because the curve was a little bit lower and I could play more aggro with a Champion of the Parsih. Intuitively I would play 7 dorks. Voice of Resurgence - never played with the card. What is the right number to play here? Some posts earlier somebody stated that Voice is good is almost every matchup. I share that opinion. Reflector Mage - MVP in the humanbuild! Some classic lists play 0 other play up to 4 (split main and side). What's the forums opinion?
The sideboard is just an idea for now. In the humanbuild I had 1x Bojuka Bog but I think with ScOoze I have enough graveyardhate.
I think the green-white version lacks a little bit of interaction. Especial the combodecks are hard for.
This is the list that comes to my mind:
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Scryb Ranger
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Voice of Resrugence
1x Qasali Pridemage
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Courser of Kruphix
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Ramunap Excavator
4x Path to Exile
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Collected Company
Lands:
4x Windswept Heath
3x Wooded Foothills
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Godless Shrine
2x Temple Garden
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Gavony Township
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Forest
1x Plains
2x Choke
2x Stony Silence
3x Thoughtseize
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Kataki, War's Wage
Maybe I'm trying too hard to copy the legacy list but hear me out!
Abrupt Decay helps game one against Devoted Druid, Elves and other creature based decks. It's good against unflipped Search for Azcanta (I think destroying it the turn they play it is the most value-play).
Scryb Ranger + Dryad Arbor gives you infinite chumpblocks. Maybe it's too cute but I think it's worth a try.
1-off Thalia, Guardian of Thraben could work out. I played her in a humans build (Bant) as a one-off and never had the issue of drawing too much copies.
The Manabase trades some basics for the shocklands. Not sure if 7 fetchlands are enough. Yeah, we will give some % to burn but I think Courser of Kruphix will balance it.
The true black splash comes from the sideboard! Basically it's just Thoughtseize and Zealous Persecution. Imho discard is pretty strong in this meta. Zealous Persecution could be Engineered Explosives but the instant is more versatile and can push the last points of dmg. The maindeck should be balanced enough and we can board special hate against bad matchups.
Maybe the list needs a curve topper - I really like Archangel Avacyn! I think Thalia, Heretic Cathar is a flex spot and I'll try the angel instead of her.
Tomorrow I'll playtest the list a little bit - you'll get some feedback afterwards
I'm a huge fan of the deck! I really enjoy playing and watching it!
What I don't understand: why is no one splashing black? I mean the splash is mostly for free and even if you just splash for your sideboard you can play a "stock" list and have a better sideboard against combodecks (which I think are a bad matchup).
Todd Stevens has mastered this deck but I think with a little more black cards he will finally win an open with "Valuetown"
After my first post in march I realised that 4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is just bad (in modern). Don't get me wrong - I love this card. But as a 4 off she's not that good in modern. I'll test the deck this week and will post my current list/thoughts!
The 2x Duress is due budget. I only own 2 copies of Thoughtseize. I thought about IoK but this card isn't able to hit Karn, Ugin, Damnation or Verdict.
Thrun vs. Colossus is interesting! I thought Colossus fits better because it's an "elf". Thrun could be handy versus controldecks.
I'm not fully sold on Damping Sphere. Isn't the drawback too big and aren't we faster then tron/can slow them down with discard?
@johngag
congrats to your result!
I think Tenshirou said a lot that affects you too. I'm not a big fan of the Unclaimed Territory. I would consider 2x green fetchland to have more access on black sources if needed. Also your Sideboard consists of a lot of non-elves which could to akward situations with the Unclaimed Territory.
I want to to participate on a bigger event this sunday. I'm torn between GWu Vizier Company and BG Elves but I think I will sleeve up elves.
Since I'm a bit inexperienced with the deck I wanted to ask you if you would change something on my list:
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Evlish Visionary
4x Dwnywen's Elite
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Shaman of the Pack
3x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4x Lead the Stampede
4x Collected Company
Lands:
5x Forest
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Blooming Marsh
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Pendelhaven
1x Chameleon Colossus
2x Reclamation Sage
1x Dismember
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Golgari Charm
1x Heroic Intervention
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Fracturing Gust
2x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
I think the main is fine. The manabase could be tweaked a little bit. I try to get my hands on 3 extra copies of Cavern of Souls to fight through Chalice. What Lands would you cut? 2x Forest and 1x Blooming Marsh?
I'm toying around with 2x Elves of the Deep Shadow to provide black mana. I'm thinking on cutting 2x Nettle Sentinel... it's one of the cards I board out the most.
For the Meta I expect a lot of UWx and Jund.
Some thoughts on my sideboard:
-Duress & Thoughtseize against any combodecks and also Control to get rid off massremoval. Also Duress comes handy against Burn. I thought about Stain the Mind but I'm not sure if this card is to slow. What's your experience?
-Fracutring Gust & Reclamation Sage against Affinity, Lantern, KCI and other Artifactbased decks. Would you bring RecSage vs. Burn to handle Eidolon?
-Abrupt Decay & Dismember for the mirror and GWx Companydecks also for Merfolk, DnT and Humans. The Dismember could be a third Decay but Dismember can deal some Eldrazi.
-Relic of Progenitus against all GYdecks. Not sure if 2x Scavenging Ooze are better in this spot. Relic draws a card while Ooze is more flexible and is also very good against burn. Maybe I'll swap the Relics.
-Golgari Charm for the mirror, Affinity, Pyromancer and as a sweeper protection. I like this card very much because it's flexible. With a Archdruid on the board you will whipe your opps board then the whole. Sold on this card.
-Chameleon Colossus against all BR decks and also autowin against Shadow.
-Heroic Intervention is one card I will cut for sure. It is to reactive and the chance of drawing a one off is pretty small. I guess this could be another copy of a previous mentioned sideboardcard.
Would like to hear your feedback
If I have a little bit more time and settled for the final list I would to showcase a short SB-Guide. It helps me a lot to do it before an event so I can focus on playing and not thinking to much while sideboarding!
3x Noble Hierarch
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Devoted Druid
3x Vizier of Remedies
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
1x Voice of Resurgence
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Reflector Mage
2x Eternal Witness
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
Spells:
3x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Temple Garden
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
3x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Stony Silence
1x Unified Will
1x Negate
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Path to Exile
1x Kitchen Finnks
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Another Creature I can't remember
Hey! Long post incoming!
After a long time I finally ordered the last pieces to finish the Deck.
My deck is based on the deck Vikram Kudva played in Phoenix. I want to play Knight of the Reliquary because it's one of my pet cards... I hope this fits here.
First of all some cardchoices I would like to discuss:
-No Jace, the Mind Sculptor because aint nobody got dineros fo' that! Well, I don't think it's that important for this deck. Yes, Jace is very powerful but you can still grind without him and win midrange wars.
-Wooded Foothills is a budget cut for Misty Rainforest. Dont know if I'm going to buy the playset Misty Rainforest or buy Verdant Catacombs to switch to the Abzan Combo with Finks.
-The 2 drop slot:
Voice of Resurgence to have an edge against control when they shut off my combos. In my normal Knightfall list I play 3x Voice to battle all those controldecks. Not 100% sure on this here.
Scavenging Ooze fighting for a slot in the maindeck with Qasali Pridemage. Ooze will give me more edge in midrange games and against graveyard strategies. I don't if it's correct to play Ooze over Pridemage.
Selfless Spirit against sweeper and the Spirit can be found with Chord of Calling. I think thats good enough.
-Reflector Mage super good against a lot of decks! Maybe I will go down to 3 copies but I will play him over Spell Queller. Why? I think Spell Queller is not in the best spot right now. At least in my LGS. There are to many decks with max. removal. Also Spell Queller is a reactive card and if I cant combo-off I want to be the active part pressuring my opponent.
If I cut a Reflector Mage I will swap it with a 3rd Eternal Witness or a Tireless Tracker.
-Rhonas the Indomitable over Walking Ballista because Rhonas has better synergies with Knight of the Reliquary. Do you think adding another combo-pay-off is good?
-Island I had spots where I couldn't do anything because I had no access to blue under a Blood Moon. Furthermore you will see always a Field of Ruins. After some considerations I think I'm going to cut the Island and play Gavony Township. I play no Jace and double blue is not that important. In the end basicly both are "colorless".
-Botanical Sanctum truth is I don't know why it is played. I build the deck via netdecking and never asked questions. It's good against burn but it's not fetchable and can't be sacced for a Knight activation. Im considering a 2nd Breeding Pool. What do you think?
Sideboard:
The biggest issue is because of the inexperience with this deck. Not finished checking the whole thread (I'm working on it) but I don't really know when to cut the Vizier/Druid combo, when to cut the whole Knightfall combo, when to cut just few pieces and so on. Also people like Kelvin Chew have a "narrow" Sideboard which comes from the Knightfall-playstyle and other have a toolboxish-sideboard which you play in the Abzan Vizier decks. Can't settle which direction I will go. My sideboard for now is more of a toolbox.
The deck is super fun and challenging! Also you can win veeeery undeserved by ripping of the missing piece from the top of your deck Played it yesterday the first time in a 5 round tournament and finished 3-2. Losing both games because I'm a complete moron ... but it was a lesson for the next time!
Thank you for reading and I appreciate every comment!
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Selfess Spirit
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Reflector Mage
1x Eternal Witness
3x Geist of Saint Traft
Spells:
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
Lands:
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Temple Garden
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Gavony Township
2x Forest
1x Island
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Flooded Strand
1x Stony Silence
2x Unified Will
2x Negate
1x Blessed Alliance
2x Kitchen Finnks
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Tireless Tracker
2x Izzet Staticaster
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
Finished 3-1 winning against G-Tron (2-0), UWr Control (2-0) and Jund (2-0). Lost to Affinity (0-2).
Due the lack of affinity I thought 1 Stony would be enough. Will go up to 2 and add a Settle the Wreckage. I lost both games to resolved Etched Champion.
My MVP of the evening was Geist of Saint Traft! It was a fun addition and in the UWr Match my opponent had to cast Supreme Verdict on my Geist
Before the FNM I had 4x Spell Queller in the deck but changed it last minute because I face a lot of removal right now. Queller is better against the combo matchups but in that case I try to combo first
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Wild Nacatl
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Loxodon Smiter
1x Magus of the Moon
4x Bloodbraid Elf
Spells:
2x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
1x Boros Charm
1x Lightning Helix
1x Domri Rade
2x Stomping Ground
2x Sacred Foundry
1x Temple Garden
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Mountain
2x Forest
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Stony Silence
2x Choke
1x Path to Exile
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Pyroclasm
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
The Deck is good at fighting Control decks and is able to grind. With some sideboard changes I think you can handle the combo matchups. The maindeck burn is super sweet! Not sure on the 4th Loxodon Smiter - the smiter was always good but I think playing a Tireless Tracker or Courser of Kruphix for cardadvantage.
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Birds of Paradise
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Ramunap Excavator
1x Eternal Witness
Spells:
4x Path to Exile
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Collected Company
2x Temple Garden
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Godless Shrine
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Gavony Township
2x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Thoughtseize
1x Stony Silence
1x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Choke
2x Orzhov Pontiff
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Mirran Crusader
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
This is the first brew without any playtesting. I'd love to play 1-2 swords of (...) but a) I don't have them b) don't want to buy them because c) I don't think they are worth it.
The Sideboard is tweaked for our "friendly league". Taking this deck to a wider competative tournament I would add some Thrun, the Last Troll and/or Loxodon Smiter to fight against UWx decks. I want to squeeze some copies of Collective Brutality in the Sideboard to fight Combo/Burn. Maybe for the Kitchen Finks or Mirran Crusader.
The longer I think about the deck I'm starting to think it could be actually good! The only concern, in a competativ environment, is the rise up of Bloodbraid Elf... I'm playing her in my Naya build... damn this card is soooo good!
@LeaveMasterPro I think Kitchen Finks and Loxodon Smiter are good against Aggro helping also against Controldecks. Courser of Kruphix is solid against aggro too!
I'll will give you some feedback after our little tournament! Maybe I'll sleeve the deck for the next FNM!
After playing Bant Knightfall and having a playset Bloodbraid Elf I gave Naya Zoo a try. This is my list - The sideboard is on the head so it's not 100% accurate:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Wild Nacatl
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Loxodon Smiter
1x Courser of Kruphix
4x Bloodbraid Elf
Spells:
2x Path to Exile
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Lightning Helix
1x Domri Rade
2x Stomping Ground
2x Sacred Foundry
1x Temple Garden
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
3x Forest
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Stony Silence
2x Choke
1x Path to Exile
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Pyroclasm
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
First of all the lacking of Tarmogoyf - no moneyz fo dat - also I think it's better in BGx shells because they're running more Sorceries and your opponent discards other types in the yard.
Scavenging Ooze - my Goyf "replacement". Everytime I untapped with Ooze it won me the game.
Bloodbraid Elf - holy cow! The worst hit was a Noble Hierarch but that's ok as we get a Exalted trigger, mana and another body. Bloodbraid was also good against UWx decks because my opponent had to decide which spell he wants to counter. Really good card!
Loxodon Smiter - put 4 copies in the main in expectation of UWx, Jund and one guy playing 8-Rack I don't want to lose to - Boltproof body was sometimes better on turn 2 then a Knight of the Reliquary. Against aggrodecks it was a solid blocker!
What was no that good?
No card draw. Unfortunately the +1 is only look at the top card. A scry would be just insane. Tireless Tracker is a good card but for now I'm not sold on Tracker instead of Smiter
Tron: got badly beat up by tron Bant Knightfall gave me Reflector Mage which I'm missing. Maybe put some Molten Rain in the board to cascade in.
No basic Mountain: it cost me a game against UWR Control... added one basic mountain in my list
Lightning Helix was in fact the "worst card" in the deck. I would consider this as my flexslots - I'll try 2x Atarka's Command or 2x Boros Charm... closing out games with burn is just to good!
I have to build a propper sideboard. What would you recommend against Token/go-wide strategies like UR Pyromancer or Elves. Are 4 Bolts enough to handle them or is a "mass removal" needed?
The unbanning made me really sad... first of all from a financial position after investing in Knightfall and on the other hand I'm afraid you have to play Jund or get some Jace to compete with the new meta that will evolve. My biggest fear is that the meta will change to stock archetypes like "Midrange=Jund/Jace", "UXx Control", "SuperAggro that loose to anything else".
I feel forced to abandon Bant (or sell my kidneys for JtMS) and play something else. I have a playset Bloodbraid Elf at home and started to build Naya Big Zoo... sadly I only have two kidneys and have to sell some other organs for a playset Tarmogoyf
Sunday I will carry my new beloved deck to the grave... it lived short but was awesome!
Best regards
Some sad dude
Unfortunately there's no GP Lyon for me... but I'm goning to a, I think, 50+ player event. Played some games with Bant Knightfall and took some extra money to upgrade my deck - here is the current list:
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Selfess Spirit
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Spell Queller
1x Tireless Tracker
3x Reflector Mage
Spells:
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Temple Garden
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Gavony Township
3x Forest
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Flooded Strand
2x Stony Silence
2x Unified Will
2x Negate
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Kitchen Finnks
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
Maybeboard consists of a 3rd Voice of Resurgence, 1x Spellskite, 2nd Tireless Tracker, 2x Courser of Kruphix, 1x Vendillion Clique.
I except a lot of Pyromancer decks and a lot of UWx...
Last FNM I finished only 2-2 winning against GW Stompy and Storm / losing to UR Pyromancer and Soulflayer. The creature Matchup felt pretty good, especially with 3 copies of Reflector Mage (thank you @Dejadal). Storm was also ok. A resolved Eidolon is game. Lil Thalia felt always good - even in the GW Stompy game I was able to cut him off Dromoka's Command and Path.
In the Soulflayer Match I held a bad hand with one mana and two Birds in game one. Game two was close and I'm not sure if Scavenging Ooze is enough... that's why I want to have a Bojuka Bog - What do you think?
In the UR Pyromancer games I held slow hands (no one drop, some 2/3 drops) and he denials everything I do. Game two he played Blood Moon and had Countermagic for days. Playing against any kind of blue decks is somehow a big problem for me...
Also I would love to play a singleton Island but after all upgrades I have no $$$ for a proper manabase... I think it's too optimistic with only one blue fetchland
It's cool beeing in communication with other players! Helps a lot
Looks pretty cool! Do you know which place Kelvin ended?
Here is the list I played, I managed to get a 2nd Voice:
3x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Selfess Spirit
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Spell Queller
1x Courser of Kruphix
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Reflector Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
Spells:
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Temple Garden
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Gavony Township
3x Forest
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Flooded Strand
2x Stony Silence
2x Unified Will
2x Negate
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Aven Mindcensor
2x Izzet Staticaster
1x Reflector Mage
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Mirran Crusader
Tested some games against a friend on GW Hatebears wich was a favorable matchup due our awesome airforce.
Round 1 vs. Thing Ascencsion 1-2
Game one he managed to get into the combo and milled me. Game two I kept a hand with 3 counterspells and drew the 4th counter and some Spell Quellers. Game three I had no removal for Thing in the Ice.
Round 2 vs. Saheeli Combo 0-2
Game one he stalled the board with Wall of Omens and had enough removal for my airforce. Game two I honestly threw away because I was in full-tilt-mode. Super unpleasant opponent and I just wanted to get out of the Shop to calm down and get some fresh air.
Round 3 vs. GW Hatebears 2-1
Played against my friend. Game one I screwed up one combat step and forgot about Leonin Arbiter. Game two and three he I had all Spell Quellers in the world wich where too many to handle.
Round 4 vs. ???
No one showed up and I playtested again with my buddy because he had a bye.
Deck felt really good. It's hard to tell if a hand is keepable or not - time will tell. I think I could win the Ascencsion match but didn't know when to play Spell Queller exactly. Also the 2nd game vs Saheeli he resolved a Sun Titan and I could have eat two removal from his graveyard... but I let Sun Titan resolve due to super-tilt - I know it should never happen... working on it.
Things I will change:
-2 Reflector Mage, +1 Selfless Spirit, +1 Spellskite
Hitting a CoCo with two dorks in the Humanlist was ok because they were pumping your champion/Lieutenant. Never saw it like you said with the Voice! I just orginized a second Voice for todays FNM!
I also like the Negate in the main. How does it work out for you?
Thalia is a good card! Would definitely try it - the question is what to cut?
1. Thank your for the input! Yesterday I played a few games and had often the problem with flooding or starting with 5 lands out of my 7 - on 23 lands. Today I will try 22 lands. Maybe I can get my hands on the 4th Hierarch.
2. Yeah I'm totally with you! It's the next thing on the shopping list!
3. The main reason for now is that I have no good other 2 drops. The 2nd Voice is missing and I don't know what else I could play. I get the 2nd Voice this evening so I will cut 1x Ooze or 1x Spirit.
4. See 3.
5. The casting cost seem hard but I hope the Clique is good against combo wich we have a lot in our LGS.
Also I added 2 Negate to the sideboard and cut the Rhox War Monk - I hope Blessed Alliance is good enough against burn!
I will post my results in the next week
I don't think it's a good replacement. Sure, the casting is easier but in the worst case you hit her in a Company and your opponent has no tapped creautre/you have no Revolt-trigger. Imo Fiend Hunter is even better than Deadeye Harpooner. Also I'm a huge fan of Reflector Mage.
___
I'm moving from Human Knightfall to classic Knightfall and need some help - here is my current list:
3x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Selfess Spirit
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Spell Queller
1x Courser of Kruphix
2x Tireless Tracker
1x Reflector Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
Spells:
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Ground
1x Hallowed Fountain
2x Temple Garden
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Gavony Township
3x Forest
1x Plains
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Flooded Strand
2x Stony Silence
2x Unified Will
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Eldritch Evolution
1x Aven Mindcensor
2x Reflector Mage
2x Izzet Staticaster
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Mirran Crusader
First of all some choice I have to explain:
Wooded Foothills over Misty Rainforest - obvious budget cut
2nd Temple Garden - no Canopys at my LGS... so it's budget.
3x Noble Hierarch - I didn't manage to get a 4th Hierarch... What's your opinion on the amount of manadorks? In the Humanbuild 7 was right because the curve was a little bit lower and I could play more aggro with a Champion of the Parsih. Intuitively I would play 7 dorks.
Voice of Resurgence - never played with the card. What is the right number to play here? Some posts earlier somebody stated that Voice is good is almost every matchup. I share that opinion.
Reflector Mage - MVP in the humanbuild! Some classic lists play 0 other play up to 4 (split main and side). What's the forums opinion?
The sideboard is just an idea for now. In the humanbuild I had 1x Bojuka Bog but I think with ScOoze I have enough graveyardhate.
My "Maybeboard" consists of:
2nd Courser of Kruphix (main)
Eternal Witness (also in the main)
Burrenton Forge-Tender
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Any tips you have? As an longtime aggro-player it's a new world playing the midrangestuff.
Thank you in advance