Played this list (almost) at FNM for a 4-1 finish, beating UW Control, Jeskai Control, Mardu Vehicles, and UW cycle (He had Approach and Drake Haven as wincons). I lost to Grixis Energy but the two games I lost were super close, both within a few life.
The only change I made is I started running 4 Fanatical Firebrand and 4 Plains, but I quickly realized Firebrand isn't great lategame, or like past turn 3, and that I was sometimes 1 white short of either activating dunes or playing my white spells. So I took out one Firebrand (minimal impact) for 1 plains.
The SB is still very much up in the air, Harsh Mentor being a concession that I don't know if Whirler Virtuoso will stick around (it likely will).
SB Notes, you want to go up to 2 abrades in Blue control matchups to surprise take out a gearhulk, but you don't want more than that so you don't get stuck with them in hand. You want all 4 against Mardu.
MB, I'm pretty comfortable with the set up, but might want to add 3 drops to better curve out. Although it is worth mentioning that on the play, going one drop 2 drop 1+2 drop into t4 hazoret allows you to attack with her on t4. Path can help this immensely by being able to play 2 drops turn 3 (after flip).
Really need help sorting out the rest of the SB. I saw some lists running Ixalan's Binding and the card that sac's each board down to 4 power, but I believe playing that along with Hazoret is just plain bad.
The raptor has been okay, most times it just eats a removal spell on T2 because it's just bigger than everything.
Hey everyone!! I'm going to be streaming the UR version of the deck at twitch.tv/optimal_hunter if anyone is interested!! I've always been looking for a way to make the deck work and glad I stumbled upon this forum!
my only loss was from the FREAKING MIRROR. Well... not exactly mirror, it was the SuperVengevine deck (Burning-Tree Emissary + Reckless Bushwhacker) that had an insane draw and won on turn 2.
Hehe that's what my deck does Though I haven't played a league with it in a couple weeks I think, my last post with the videos was just games.
On-Topic, I'll be streaming this list next wednesday:
No sound, I was recording in a bar and didnt bring my mic with me
Because I was recording on one screen, theres times where I switch windows and you see it. Sorry, looking for video software to clean that stuff up
I was adjusting the overlay as I went along, I ended with what I think is the best, but other recommendations are certainly welcome!
Feel free to ask about plays and such as I didn't have a chance to explain myself
Got some games in over the last few days with the vengeful one deck, using Skitzafreaks most recently posted list. Here's the results from what I remember yesterday and what I've played today (typing it up as I'm playing it) sorry for no video but i realized the laptop I'm using gives it unusable quality.
Mono b zombies
lost g1 to a mulligan and less than mediocre draws, plus him getting a huge board. at the beginning of game 2 I intimidated him with my amazingness into conceding. or maybe it was that he had stuff to do irl.
Claim to Fame burn:
nothing really of note here. Won in 2, through a bolt he kept up defensively. Didnt seem like a terribly bad matchup, though I admit getting stomped by boros burn in a league.
Soul Sisters
game 1, opponent went down to 4 real quick, but ended up slowly climbing back to the 10 range. Thankfully, Temur Battle Rage and Become Immense get through small blockers like nothing, and I won the game.
game 2, I cast a turn 1 hollow one, with a second one in hand, and he conceded with the first one on the stack. Guess a 0 mana 4/4 is too good??
eTron
game 1 was griiindy. ended the game on a play getting back all 4 vengevines with a bushwhacker. Game 2 I board in all the artifact hate, and leave blood moon in (planning to take it in on the draw). he goes grafdigger's cage t1, t2 relic, t4 cage after I destroyed both the other ones. le sigh, end up conceding after I revealed a reality smasher on top of his lib.
game 3 was a bit grindy, but we pulled it out. it started off rather slow, but I ended up making an awful value play that won me the game. my hand was street wraith x2, burning tree emissary, lightning axe, bloodstained mire, and hollow one. cycle both wraiths to get Temur battle rage and a vengevine. Not sure exactly how optimal it was at the time, but I knew I had to get my vine out that turn, or he would crack relic and I would cry. so I play BTE, lgihtning axe it, discarding vine. Cast hollow one for free, recur vine. use the floating green mana, and cracking mire to play temur battle rage on vine, getting in for 8. ended up winning a few turns later by holding creatures in my hand to recur vine again, after destroying his relic, and attackign for exactsies the turn after.
faieries variant???
Not quite sure what this guy was playing, it seemed like a very budget build, and he seemed new to mtgo. nice enough guy, won game 1 with a combination of BTE/bushwhacker and become immense. game 2 i managed to swing in for 10 on turn 2 by ruccuring 2 vines. Hey vapor snagged both, i laughed, cast the faithless looting in my hand. next turn mtgo skipped my turn?? whatever, i drew the vengevine, and going BTE into vine recurred the other 2, even though he mana leaked the vine I cast? I wasnt complaining, his dragons claw bought him a turn but TBR/Immense combo is a great finisher.
I love this deck, and assuming the list stays relatively stagnant over the next couple weeks I could see myself figuring out a bit of a SB and matchup guide.
WOW! Congrats for your awesome result!
Now I wanna try it out myself...
I was just thinking of Lead the Stampede for possible role similar to Gather the Pack.
I do see the upside of GtP, but do you think it would have worked in any of your game?
EDIT:
Oh, Lead the Stampede is getting a reprint! (was thinking why it doesn't show its card image)
So with concerns to Gather the Pack VS Lead the Stampede, this is one key difference with the cards that makes Gather a little bit better. It's the fact that the cards you don't put in your hand go to the graveyard. This key difference lets you toss Vengevines into the yard with Gather, while grabbing 2 creatures to reanimate them.
With Lead, you'll need to put any Vengevines you see in your hand, and hope you get discard to pitch them as well, which is a bit of a downside.
Now I was able to play a few more games running Memnite in the list. Honestly, I am quite surprised at how well it is working in the deck. I think the problem with Memnite in previous builds was that the options you had for other free creatures were Ornithopter and Hangarback Walker. Ornithopter is a *****ty 0/2 creature that doesn't push the aggro plan, and walker does nothing because it just instantly dies. When your options for free creatures are an 0/2, a 1/1, and something that dies instantly, you'll tend to try and stay away from those cards.
But with Hollow One in the roster, and with the slight subtle changes to the deck (less Dredge durdling, more aggro velocity) Memnite is actually not that bad. I honestly don't think it is 4-of good, after doing some testing with it. But I feel that it is 2-3-of good. It just helps you get those Vengevines into play that much quicker.
And after careful consideration I don't feel that Traverse the Ulvenwald is worth the deck slots. @Optimal_Hunter is a buddy of mine who has done some testing on MTGO and basically came to the conclusion that Traverse is a card that is great in a deck with either a creature toolbox, or a deck that wants 8 of a single creature like Death's Shadow or Tarmogoyf. Our deck honestly isn't either of those so it's honestly quite lackluster.
This is what my current iteration with the list looks like:
Part of me wants to find room for some Atarka's Commands because of how wide this deck can go sometimes, but I feel that they're more greedy than anything. Though they might have a place in the deck if you can find the room. I'm also fiddling around with the sideboard a bit, essentially figuring out how many of which cards I want. I ended up cutting the Domri Rade as after a while it seems more like a wishful thinking sideboard card as opposed to an actually good one.
awe, a shoutout :3 Thanks bud!
as Skitz said, I've been testing on modo with the following list:
I'm currently 3-0 in a friendly league, trying to find time to stream/record games when I'm not super tired. I also need to sort out the mic and quality kinks with my stream before I record and play any more matches. But when I do, I'll post the link to my stream here for people interested, as well as playthrough videos afterward.
Anyways, now that the shameless self-promotion is done...
I. Love. This. List.
I think this list is close to where we want to be, barring a major meta shift or a new card being tested and added and being very successful. Here's the reasoning on some of my card choices:
Memnite
I was talking with skitz about the deck (really i sent him 8 messages one morning before he was awake) and mentioned in there that maybe we would want ballista or Hangarback walker, to boost our chances at the artifact-creature being in the bin for traverse. He gets back to me and says that 0 cost artifacts were never good in vengevine lists. Him being the far more experienced vengevine player (I just picked it up this week) I conceded that point.
I log on to the forum a couple hours later to see he's already testing memnites, and commenting that he likes them in the deck.
My decision to go with memnite revolved around two things: the artifact type for traverse (more on that later) and the fact that, rather than hooting mandrils costing at least 1, this would lead to more nut draws where you have a 1 drop or 2 0 drops and a faithless looting to get your vines back.
In reality, as Skitz said, I realized that it also adds more go-wide to the deck, as well as not having to compete with become immense for graveyard cards. I went with a 3 of as despite the upsides, this still probably one of our weakest creatures (Neonate having menace is usefull with the BI/TBR combo) and it is an awful topdeck. I also tend to board out one or two if needed, depending on the matchup.
Atarka's command
I played this card in my burn days, already have a playset and was excited to use it in a deck that has a good chance to go wide. Also, doing the math, casting this with even 1 creature on board is 4 damage, which is what seems to make our deck consistent (getting a bunch of 4 power creatures and beating face), so it almost adds to the nut draw count. There are also some games where the skullcrack ability comes in useful.
I went with 2 because I didn't want to dilute the original list too much, and I wanted to try traverse. When I cut traverse (spoiler alert), either this will become a 3 of, or the SB bolt comes MB and one of these is added to the SB.
traverse the ulvenwald
At first glance, I thought this would be a great list for the card. a lot of discard to get you to delirium, a few too many creatures but artifact creatures help, and it lets you fetch what you need when you need it. When i first threw the list together on paper, I had 4 of. I SB most out every matchup, and when i built the list on modo decided to try one of. Having payed 3 matches in the league, I am ready to drop it compeletly from the list.
Skitz touched on some of our dislikes on the card, but I do have a few more to add:
in reality, our creature count is far too high, and none of our creatures read "you win the game". Our deck is just one that wants to load of on creatures and things in our graveyard, however it also wants to use all if it's mana to do that. the only turn we may not use all our mana is turn 1, but delirum is impossible to achieve while also casting traverse that turn. Late game, fetchign a 4/4 won't often make the difference, where an extra burn spell has a higher chance of making a difference.
Delirium and Delve are a major non-bo that comes up more than I'd wish.
This deck also wants to be very selective with what it discards, and having to discard a become immense or Temur battle rage to get delirium feels bad, especially being wincons, while traverse is just a utility card.
I will admit, one game was very useful, i was able to chain two traverse together in my old list with a swiftspear and a land and it made for a decent play, but outside of that, it doesnt support the deck enough.
2become immenseand 1 temur battle rage
I put these two together because you almost always want them together. In addition, having played this combo in standard when it was legal, having more become immense is important because it's usually a better "gotchya" card, and gets in for more damage on it's own, and TBR usually needed Immense to get ferocious online. Nothing against TBR, but usually it isn't great on it's own. This list is the exception, where the creatures your deck revolves around have 4 power and activate ferocious on their own, and it may be right to play a 2/2 split. I prefer to diversify threats, which is why I went down 1 of each to fit in the atarka's commands.
forest
two small purposes: a fetchable green source without taking damage, and a blood-moon insurance. I have been saved by both situations and have had to mulligan exactly one hand that would be perfect with a mountain. This is a meta call, depending on how often you both expect to face blood moon and how often you plan to board it in yourself. With Etron and Deaths shadow prevailent, blood moon hoses both those decks, and locally there are 2 mono red burn players who both play 4 blood moons SB.
Sideboard choices: lightning axe
I've decided Lightning axe over dismember for a couple reasons.
Firstly, our deck doesn't mind discard, and hitting fliers at one mana for isntant speed beats the roast in the original list.
Secondly, budget
Thirdly, if we are in topdeck mode late game against a creature we need to kill, I would rather save a card in hand than pay 4 life, which we realistically may not be able to do if opponent has us dead. In addition, with cathartic reuninon, insolent neonate, and faithless looting in our deck, we want to save extra lands when we can to make sure we have discard fodder (though its worth noting discard fodder vs. thinning the deck is a legitimate arguement).
On balance, while dismember may be a better late game topdeck with an empty hand, my opinion is that the damage is too much of a payoff, considering we want to horde a card or two in hand anyway, the discard clause is not the biggest issue.
Also, the third lightning axe is likely correct as a third leyline of the void or third blood moon, meta dependant.
Potential changes
as I discussed, I'll have to finish the league before i make changes, however I would advocate for dropping the traverse and bringing lightning bolt main to increase our interaction. With this free sideboard slot, atarka's command, blood moon and leyline are all realistic choices as additional cards, meta dependant, in addition to changing one lightning axe for one of leyline or blood moon.
my issue was that i wasnt quite drawing things in the right order, and a lot of the times i had traverse I wanted discards/draw effects instead, so I'm going to stick with one traverse, and will also be trying skitzafreaks suggestion with the memnites
2 Ahn-Crop Crasher
2 Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
2 Soul-Scar Mage
1 Dire Fleet Daredevil
3 Fanatical Firebrand
3 Relentless Raptor
4 Bomat Courier
4 Earthshaker Khenra
3 Hazoret the Fervent
5 Plains
3 Shefet Dunes
4 Inspiring Vantage
11 Mountain
Instants 8
3 Shock
4 Lightning Strike
1 Abrade
Chandras 2
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
The Better Ramunap Ruins 3
3 Path of Mettle
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Abrade
3 Dire Fleet Daredevil
1 Aethersphere Harvester
2 Harsh Mentor
2 Soul-Scar Mage
3 Glorybringer
Played this list (almost) at FNM for a 4-1 finish, beating UW Control, Jeskai Control, Mardu Vehicles, and UW cycle (He had Approach and Drake Haven as wincons). I lost to Grixis Energy but the two games I lost were super close, both within a few life.
The only change I made is I started running 4 Fanatical Firebrand and 4 Plains, but I quickly realized Firebrand isn't great lategame, or like past turn 3, and that I was sometimes 1 white short of either activating dunes or playing my white spells. So I took out one Firebrand (minimal impact) for 1 plains.
The SB is still very much up in the air, Harsh Mentor being a concession that I don't know if Whirler Virtuoso will stick around (it likely will).
SB Notes, you want to go up to 2 abrades in Blue control matchups to surprise take out a gearhulk, but you don't want more than that so you don't get stuck with them in hand. You want all 4 against Mardu.
MB, I'm pretty comfortable with the set up, but might want to add 3 drops to better curve out. Although it is worth mentioning that on the play, going one drop 2 drop 1+2 drop into t4 hazoret allows you to attack with her on t4. Path can help this immensely by being able to play 2 drops turn 3 (after flip).
Really need help sorting out the rest of the SB. I saw some lists running Ixalan's Binding and the card that sac's each board down to 4 power, but I believe playing that along with Hazoret is just plain bad.
The raptor has been okay, most times it just eats a removal spell on T2 because it's just bigger than everything.
Im using the vengeful one GR list
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh8fBUYFOfo&t=646s
Hehe that's what my deck does
On-Topic, I'll be streaming this list next wednesday:
4 Street Wraith
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hollow One
4 Vengevine
4 Burning-Tree Emissary
3 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Insolent Neonate
SPELLS
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Faithless Looting
2 Temur Battle Rage
3 Gather the Pack
3 Become Immense
2 Copperline Gorge
3 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Mountain
2 Blood Moon
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Feed the Clan
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Leyline of the Void
3 Lightning Axe
Here's the link, and I'll be loading videos on YouTube afterwards, subscriptions, likes and follows are appreciated as appropriate!! Thanks e'rry one
https://go.twitch.tv/optimal_hunter
Vidoes of past streams can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCANRiRiRHvt5LNPzHOT32bg?view_as=subscriber
I HAVE SOME NEW VIDEOS
Some precursors:
No sound, I was recording in a bar and didnt bring my mic with me
Because I was recording on one screen, theres times where I switch windows and you see it. Sorry, looking for video software to clean that stuff up
I was adjusting the overlay as I went along, I ended with what I think is the best, but other recommendations are certainly welcome!
Feel free to ask about plays and such as I didn't have a chance to explain myself
Mono b zombies
lost g1 to a mulligan and less than mediocre draws, plus him getting a huge board. at the beginning of game 2 I intimidated him with my amazingness into conceding. or maybe it was that he had stuff to do irl.
Claim to Fame burn:
nothing really of note here. Won in 2, through a bolt he kept up defensively. Didnt seem like a terribly bad matchup, though I admit getting stomped by boros burn in a league.
Soul Sisters
game 1, opponent went down to 4 real quick, but ended up slowly climbing back to the 10 range. Thankfully, Temur Battle Rage and Become Immense get through small blockers like nothing, and I won the game.
game 2, I cast a turn 1 hollow one, with a second one in hand, and he conceded with the first one on the stack. Guess a 0 mana 4/4 is too good??
eTron
game 1 was griiindy. ended the game on a play getting back all 4 vengevines with a bushwhacker. Game 2 I board in all the artifact hate, and leave blood moon in (planning to take it in on the draw). he goes grafdigger's cage t1, t2 relic, t4 cage after I destroyed both the other ones. le sigh, end up conceding after I revealed a reality smasher on top of his lib.
game 3 was a bit grindy, but we pulled it out. it started off rather slow, but I ended up making an awful value play that won me the game. my hand was street wraith x2, burning tree emissary, lightning axe, bloodstained mire, and hollow one. cycle both wraiths to get Temur battle rage and a vengevine. Not sure exactly how optimal it was at the time, but I knew I had to get my vine out that turn, or he would crack relic and I would cry. so I play BTE, lgihtning axe it, discarding vine. Cast hollow one for free, recur vine. use the floating green mana, and cracking mire to play temur battle rage on vine, getting in for 8. ended up winning a few turns later by holding creatures in my hand to recur vine again, after destroying his relic, and attackign for exactsies the turn after.
faieries variant???
Not quite sure what this guy was playing, it seemed like a very budget build, and he seemed new to mtgo. nice enough guy, won game 1 with a combination of BTE/bushwhacker and become immense. game 2 i managed to swing in for 10 on turn 2 by ruccuring 2 vines. Hey vapor snagged both, i laughed, cast the faithless looting in my hand. next turn mtgo skipped my turn?? whatever, i drew the vengevine, and going BTE into vine recurred the other 2, even though he mana leaked the vine I cast? I wasnt complaining, his dragons claw bought him a turn but TBR/Immense combo is a great finisher.
I love this deck, and assuming the list stays relatively stagnant over the next couple weeks I could see myself figuring out a bit of a SB and matchup guide.
Also 1 extra cmc is huge
awe, a shoutout :3 Thanks bud!
as Skitz said, I've been testing on modo with the following list:
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Copperline Gorge
4 Mountain
3 Stomping Ground
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures - 26
3 Goblin Guide
4 Hollow One
4 Insolent Neonate
3 Memnite
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Vengevine
4 Street Wraith
2 Atarka's Command
2 Become Immense
3 Cathartic Reunion
4 Faithless Looting
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Temur Battle Rage
1 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Blood Moon
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Feed the Clan
1 Goblin Guide
2 Leyline of the Void
3 Lightning Axe
1 Lightning Bolt
I'm currently 3-0 in a friendly league, trying to find time to stream/record games when I'm not super tired. I also need to sort out the mic and quality kinks with my stream before I record and play any more matches. But when I do, I'll post the link to my stream here for people interested, as well as playthrough videos afterward.
Anyways, now that the shameless self-promotion is done...
I. Love. This. List.
I think this list is close to where we want to be, barring a major meta shift or a new card being tested and added and being very successful. Here's the reasoning on some of my card choices:
Memnite
I was talking with skitz about the deck (really i sent him 8 messages one morning before he was awake) and mentioned in there that maybe we would want ballista or Hangarback walker, to boost our chances at the artifact-creature being in the bin for traverse. He gets back to me and says that 0 cost artifacts were never good in vengevine lists. Him being the far more experienced vengevine player (I just picked it up this week) I conceded that point.
I log on to the forum a couple hours later to see he's already testing memnites, and commenting that he likes them in the deck.
My decision to go with memnite revolved around two things: the artifact type for traverse (more on that later) and the fact that, rather than hooting mandrils costing at least 1, this would lead to more nut draws where you have a 1 drop or 2 0 drops and a faithless looting to get your vines back.
In reality, as Skitz said, I realized that it also adds more go-wide to the deck, as well as not having to compete with become immense for graveyard cards. I went with a 3 of as despite the upsides, this still probably one of our weakest creatures (Neonate having menace is usefull with the BI/TBR combo) and it is an awful topdeck. I also tend to board out one or two if needed, depending on the matchup.
Atarka's command
I played this card in my burn days, already have a playset and was excited to use it in a deck that has a good chance to go wide. Also, doing the math, casting this with even 1 creature on board is 4 damage, which is what seems to make our deck consistent (getting a bunch of 4 power creatures and beating face), so it almost adds to the nut draw count. There are also some games where the skullcrack ability comes in useful.
I went with 2 because I didn't want to dilute the original list too much, and I wanted to try traverse. When I cut traverse (spoiler alert), either this will become a 3 of, or the SB bolt comes MB and one of these is added to the SB.
traverse the ulvenwald
At first glance, I thought this would be a great list for the card. a lot of discard to get you to delirium, a few too many creatures but artifact creatures help, and it lets you fetch what you need when you need it. When i first threw the list together on paper, I had 4 of. I SB most out every matchup, and when i built the list on modo decided to try one of. Having payed 3 matches in the league, I am ready to drop it compeletly from the list.
Skitz touched on some of our dislikes on the card, but I do have a few more to add:
in reality, our creature count is far too high, and none of our creatures read "you win the game". Our deck is just one that wants to load of on creatures and things in our graveyard, however it also wants to use all if it's mana to do that. the only turn we may not use all our mana is turn 1, but delirum is impossible to achieve while also casting traverse that turn. Late game, fetchign a 4/4 won't often make the difference, where an extra burn spell has a higher chance of making a difference.
Delirium and Delve are a major non-bo that comes up more than I'd wish.
This deck also wants to be very selective with what it discards, and having to discard a become immense or Temur battle rage to get delirium feels bad, especially being wincons, while traverse is just a utility card.
I will admit, one game was very useful, i was able to chain two traverse together in my old list with a swiftspear and a land and it made for a decent play, but outside of that, it doesnt support the deck enough.
2become immenseand 1 temur battle rage
I put these two together because you almost always want them together. In addition, having played this combo in standard when it was legal, having more become immense is important because it's usually a better "gotchya" card, and gets in for more damage on it's own, and TBR usually needed Immense to get ferocious online. Nothing against TBR, but usually it isn't great on it's own. This list is the exception, where the creatures your deck revolves around have 4 power and activate ferocious on their own, and it may be right to play a 2/2 split. I prefer to diversify threats, which is why I went down 1 of each to fit in the atarka's commands.
forest
two small purposes: a fetchable green source without taking damage, and a blood-moon insurance. I have been saved by both situations and have had to mulligan exactly one hand that would be perfect with a mountain. This is a meta call, depending on how often you both expect to face blood moon and how often you plan to board it in yourself. With Etron and Deaths shadow prevailent, blood moon hoses both those decks, and locally there are 2 mono red burn players who both play 4 blood moons SB.
Sideboard choices:
lightning axe
I've decided Lightning axe over dismember for a couple reasons.
Firstly, our deck doesn't mind discard, and hitting fliers at one mana for isntant speed beats the roast in the original list.
Secondly, budget
Thirdly, if we are in topdeck mode late game against a creature we need to kill, I would rather save a card in hand than pay 4 life, which we realistically may not be able to do if opponent has us dead. In addition, with cathartic reuninon, insolent neonate, and faithless looting in our deck, we want to save extra lands when we can to make sure we have discard fodder (though its worth noting discard fodder vs. thinning the deck is a legitimate arguement).
On balance, while dismember may be a better late game topdeck with an empty hand, my opinion is that the damage is too much of a payoff, considering we want to horde a card or two in hand anyway, the discard clause is not the biggest issue.
Also, the third lightning axe is likely correct as a third leyline of the void or third blood moon, meta dependant.
Potential changes
as I discussed, I'll have to finish the league before i make changes, however I would advocate for dropping the traverse and bringing lightning bolt main to increase our interaction. With this free sideboard slot, atarka's command, blood moon and leyline are all realistic choices as additional cards, meta dependant, in addition to changing one lightning axe for one of leyline or blood moon.