Just some notes on the lists we are seeing more now:
- The Primer recommends 13-15 Dredge cards, however most lists have cut down to 10-12 to make room for Creeping Chill. Also, Dakmor Salvage seems to have fallen out of favor - however I think it's still pretty important.
- Shriekhorn has replaced Insolent Neonate in most lists that I've seen. The reasoning being that without Troll anymore, the explosiveness of Neonate has faded.
The only reason, as I'm sure you know, we even run these lands is to ensure we can cast our blue creatures in a pinch. I prefer Gemstone Mine as I don't like the extra damage from Mana Confluence or City of Brass - however, diversity is always nice when you're opponent is running Surgical Extraction. I have also seen some cases for running Steam Vents over the other choices as you can fetch up your blue mana when you need it. As far as what fetches to run, you really only care about fetching up your Rx lands so any Rx fetch works. If you decided to run a one-of Forest, then maybe lean toward a playset of Wooded Foothills over the others, but in general just a variety of Rx will work. For the number of fetches to run, I think the minimum is 5 - it's nice to play around Surgical Extraction, Anger of the Gods, or other hate cards with a fetchland activation in response. I've seen people running 7 before, but I personally find that a little high and I prefer my Blackcleave Cliffs (just me really from what I've seen). Here is the manabase I've been running lately if you'd like to see another list:
I havent played with Assassin's Trophy yet, mostly because I havent felt like dropping the money on them, however the ability to shoot a Tron land on turn 2 and slow down the Tron player gives Dredge a little more time to push the damage in. There are also some fringe cases against some other decks, such as infect, where Abrupt Decay cant shoot down an Inkmoth Nexus. I think the biggest arguement I've heard against the Trophy is two mana and giving the opponent an extra land is slowing the deck down by delaying our engine and losing tempo (because of the land). Sorry I dont have much more insight on the card, but I hope analysis helps.
Path to Exile and Blood Moon is a non-bo. Besides, between Lightning Bolt and Fatal Push we have a good suite on one-drop interaction. Maybe if you dropped the Moon, but I dont know if that's correct.
Does the deck really need an anthem effect? Going wide is probably enough to close out a game and if you feel like you need a anthem, why not run a permanent buff instead of a single turn?
Risk Factor seems okay, but what would the deck remove to make room for it? The deck already runs Faithless Looting and Bedlam Revealer for card draw, do we need another effect? Maybe a one-of for testing? I dont think it will help you if your behind as your opponent can deny the card draw and if your ahead it just seems to not matter more than the other options. I'd be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts on this card or how it's worked in their testing.
I agree with Stillenacht288, the Cycle lands entering tapped is a major downside in the early turns. Running one Dakmor Salvage has occasionally made opening hands awkward, but there has been times when I need to dredge a land back to trigger Bloodghast when I'm lacking or unable to cast a Life from the Loam. I prefer the 3 Shriekhorn build as I enjoy a higher number of Dredge cards in the deck and I think Darkblast is a great card in the main. Happy Gaming!
@ TheLoneN00b - First, a more tactful way of asking your question would be along the lines of, "I love playing Humans, but find my Dredge matchup very difficult. Can anyone please provide insight on if Grafdigger's Cage is an effective sideboard card or ideal targets for Meddling Mage?" Try to remember, just because you hate an archetype doesn't mean others should to. Second, I would think the Humans thread would be a much better place to seek advice as they are more likely to know your lines of play instead of Dredge players spitballing ideas without any solid context of the intricacies of your deck. Third, Grafdigger's Cage is annoying, but doesnt stop the Dredge mechanic or Creeping Chill; I just wait until I'm ready for a big turn, blow up the Cage and carry on. Meddling Mage requires some more context on the board state and graveyard to name correctly, sorry I cant provide more advice on that front. Lastly, it's okay to have unfavorable to bad matchups. If one deck was perfect in the format then everyone would play it. Good luck and happy gaming!
@ PraiseTheKappa - Welcome to the forum, I don't know how I feel about a basic forest and swamp in the 75. I was running a single basic forest for a little while and ran into a few situations where I wanted to Conflagrate into a Faithless Looting but had one Forest and two Rx lands in play. Ultimately, we really only care about a small handful of red cards to cast and I think one or two basic Mountains is enough to play around Path to Exile; Field of Ruin and Assassin's Trophy only stall as we can get most of those targets back again when our engine is online. Shriekhorn is four in the yard by the next draw step while Insolent Neonate need you to have a Dredge card in hand. Most list are also trimming on Dredgers for Creeping Chill and not having to mulligan as often due to Neonate needing a Dredger is nice.
The decks popularity dropped because people want to try out Assassin's Trophy in the BGx midrange decks. Doesn't mean Mardu isn't good anymore, just a new flavor of midrange for the foreseeable future.
Regarding the triggers, I'm not a judge but here is some nifty site I found regarding the topic. My interpretation is that once the spell resolves, Young Pyromancer's trigger is missed. It's probably best to get into the habit of casting a spell, announcing the trigger.
What would you bring Pithing Needle in against? I think between Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, and Lighting Axe we have the tools needed to combat the most popular sideboard graveyard hate such as Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, and Scavenging Ooze. If you plan to stop planewalkers with the Needle, why not just bring the beats with the team or ignore them and race? Same with man-land, if my opponent is activating and chumping with Celestial Colonnade then I'm probably already winning that game. I just don't know what matches I would want to have a Needle in against.
I put Shriekhorn into the enabler category, but it's also our worse enabler as we cant draw off it outside of milling four cards before the normal draw step. Therefore, I cut one and havent really noticed any terribly slow starts. My other cut was swapping a fetch for a Dakmor Salvage. Again, Dredge 2 isnt where you typical want to be, but the ability to get a land without needing to cast Loam has come up more than once in recent games; generally after seeing multiple threats hit the yard on an earlier dredge and wanting to apply pressure instead of digging further. I havent figured out a good third cut yet, but I'm fairly consistent with 12 dredge cards in the deck.
Here is my current list if you want to take a look; same as what I posted a page ago though. Also note my graveyard hate is low due the meta.
Takahashi is running 13 Dredge cards within his deck whereas alot of these new lists are running 10, which seems low already for a deck relying on the mechanic. Cutting Dredge cards post-board seems wrong when we need the mechanic to operate effectively. Also note that he usually sides in Darkblast when he sides out Loam or another dredger. I generally cut my Thugs before I look at cutting a Loam, but I think Loam is just a better card when you need to cast it.
@FlyingDelver I havent played vs KCI since the one KCI player we had moved off island, but, wouldn't Ancient Grudge and your graveyard hate cards work better? There is probably also a case to run Thoughtsieze as it can snag an early Ironworks. I found that two Ancient Grudge and an extra Darkblast was enough for Hardened Scales Affinity; although it may have been my experience in play and sequencing that won me the game over all. I just dont worry about a big Arcbound Ravenger and time my removal in response to the Ravenger being sacrificed to itself.
I have found Loam to be very important to ensure you can build Conflagrate to lethal amounts, hit land drops or buyback Gemstone Mine, or trigger Bloodghast. The later is also a reason I still run a single Dakmore Salvage in the 75.
Whelp, went 3-0 at FNM tonight with the list I posted earlier. Only change was removing one Nihil Spellbomb for an extra Ancient Grudge because I think I'm the only one at my LGS really using my Graveyard so heavily. At a larger event, I think more Graveyard hate is definitely needed, but I haven't considered what to cut for the hate.
Match 1 vs Zoo (2-1) Game 1 - I found out later that my opponent was playing a budget Zoo list he found online, sadly that list really packed incidental hate maindeck. He was on the play and dropped a Dryad Militant into a turn 2 Scavanging Ooze. I promptly scooped.
Game 2 - I don't think he realized why I scoooped, as he didn't really sideboard anything. I boarded as follows:
I took a mull and kept a hand with Cathartic Reunion, Darkblast, 2 lands and other dredgers. I played a Blackcleave Cliffs and passed into his turn 1 of a tap land. I turn 2 Reunion into the epic 15 card Dredge getting back some number of Prized Amalgam and Narcomoeba. He plays another tap land and I proceed to win the game with my zombies and a Conflagrate.
Game 3 - He does a little sideboarding and I thought about cutting Thoughtseize. Ultimately I didn't as I really didn't want to see a Scavanging Ooze hit the board again. I kept a hand with Darkblast again but his turn 1 was Dryad Militant into a Tormod's Crypt. I sacrifice my Darkblast to kill the Dryad and pass into him doing nothing. I play a Shriekhorn, the first activation binned a Stinkweed Imp and a Life from the Loam into an upkeep land Creeping Chill to which my opponent popped his Crypt. I proceeded to draw a Reunion and go nuts. He played a few small things that Conflagrate cleaned up for a win.
Match 2 vs Hardened Scales Affinity (2-0) Game 1 - I put my opponent on Affinity from the last FNM I went to and kept a hand with Shriekhorn and Darkblast. I'm again on the Draw, opponent plays a Stirrings for an Overseer. I play my Horn, binned a Imp and a Creeping Chill; my Imp dredge binned two more Creeping Chills and I manage to clear the board effectly with Darkblast and Conflagrate eventually running him out of threats and getting there.
Game 2 - I have no idea what hate this deck plays, but I assume it's artifact based so I board as follows:
-1 Bloodghast, -1 Shriekhorn; +2 Ancient Grudge - I picked Ghast to come out as Narco's can potentially chump block in the air.
-1 Golgari Thug; +1 Darkblast - Early interaction that can recur and kill most of his threats seems good here.
I kept an okay 7 with some dredgers and a Conflagrate primed to drop them on my second turn. My opponent opens with an Ravenger off an Opal into two Workers. I Conflagrate my whole hand, but made a misplay; I pinged each Worker for 1, Ravenger for 3, and my opponent for 1 forgetting about the Workers tigger. His Arcbound ended up a 5/5. I eventually mill over an Ancient Grudge and Darkblast and use the later to ping off things here and there waiting for his big turn. Eventually he sacs his board to the Ravenger, activates an Inkmoth and goes for the 15/15 infect kill as I responsed with the Grudge. He scoops.
Match 3 vs UW Control (2-1) Game 1 - I forget the exact sequence, but Dredge did it's thing, my opponent tried hard to stop me with 3 Cryptic Commands but he ran out of answers.
Game 2 - I boarded thinking his main graveyard hate would be Grafdigger's Cage; this may have been a mistake as I didn't see any Logic Knots game 1. Here is what I settled on:
I mulled to a slow-ish hand that could get a Life from the Loam engine running. My first Dredge binned a Bloodghast that was quickly removed with a Surgical Extraction. Then my Loam was taken by a Vendilion Clique and I eventually lost to planeswalker beats. I changed my board for game 3, since the Surgical Extraction kinda blindsided me.
Game 3 - I replaced my artifact hate with Thoughsieze to try and force his hand with the Surgical Extraction at inopertune moments. I didn't see any Thoughsiezes however. I did have an uncountered turn 2 Reunion which again saw my Ghasts removed from my deck. But a timely Narco brought multiple Prized Amalgams into play. Creeping Chill also did a bit of work here, I think I actually hit him with the full 4 before he tapped out to Snap Cryptic my Team leaving me open to finish my opponent off with a Conflagrate.
Overall, I'm really happy with how the deck performed. Creeping Chill had some sweet moments and I think helped close out some games quicker than normal (especially vs. UW Control). There was one Rock deck there (friend of mine) who came in 1st overall dispite our records being the same. I think that match is winnable but you do have to work for it. In testing last weekend I won 3-2 vs him playing the list he ran tonight; really comes down to how quickly Scooze can be answered. I hope this helps some of ya with your own testing and brewing. Until next time, Happy Gaming!
I dont see when I would side Creeping Chill out. Versus control and combo decks, it adds extra pressure while just doing our thing. Versus aggressive decks we have incidental life gain to help reach the mid game when our card advantage starts to take over. I imagine you could shave one post-board games but the free, near uncounterable damage seems better than the other possible cuts.
Overall, because Dredge needs a mass of certain cards in order to operated effectively (Namely Dredge cards, enablers, and payoffs) it's better to shave 1-2 cards from each to bring in anti-hate cards for games 2 and 3. For example, here is the list I plan to run next FNM:
I believe City is ran in the corner case you're at one life and need to cast an instant like Gnaw to the Bone. City is a trigger unlike Confluence which is a cost. I prefer Gemstone because I have found the Burn match is a race and the pain lands add up over the game. Hope this helps! Happy Gaming!
- The Primer recommends 13-15 Dredge cards, however most lists have cut down to 10-12 to make room for Creeping Chill. Also, Dakmor Salvage seems to have fallen out of favor - however I think it's still pretty important.
- Shriekhorn has replaced Insolent Neonate in most lists that I've seen. The reasoning being that without Troll anymore, the explosiveness of Neonate has faded.
- Life from the Loam, in my opinion, is a core card and should be a 4 of now. It works so well with Conflagrate and closing out games, especially with Creeping Chill.
Just my thoughts and observations.
Thanks for your time updating the thread!
The only reason, as I'm sure you know, we even run these lands is to ensure we can cast our blue creatures in a pinch. I prefer Gemstone Mine as I don't like the extra damage from Mana Confluence or City of Brass - however, diversity is always nice when you're opponent is running Surgical Extraction. I have also seen some cases for running Steam Vents over the other choices as you can fetch up your blue mana when you need it. As far as what fetches to run, you really only care about fetching up your Rx lands so any Rx fetch works. If you decided to run a one-of Forest, then maybe lean toward a playset of Wooded Foothills over the others, but in general just a variety of Rx will work. For the number of fetches to run, I think the minimum is 5 - it's nice to play around Surgical Extraction, Anger of the Gods, or other hate cards with a fetchland activation in response. I've seen people running 7 before, but I personally find that a little high and I prefer my Blackcleave Cliffs (just me really from what I've seen). Here is the manabase I've been running lately if you'd like to see another list:
2 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mountain
2 Gemstone Mine
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground
2 Wooded Foothills
However, next FNM I plan to try out the Steam Vents with this:
2 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground
2 Wooded Foothills
Hope this helps and Happy Gaming!
Does the deck really need an anthem effect? Going wide is probably enough to close out a game and if you feel like you need a anthem, why not run a permanent buff instead of a single turn?
Risk Factor seems okay, but what would the deck remove to make room for it? The deck already runs Faithless Looting and Bedlam Revealer for card draw, do we need another effect? Maybe a one-of for testing? I dont think it will help you if your behind as your opponent can deny the card draw and if your ahead it just seems to not matter more than the other options. I'd be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts on this card or how it's worked in their testing.
@ PraiseTheKappa - Welcome to the forum, I don't know how I feel about a basic forest and swamp in the 75. I was running a single basic forest for a little while and ran into a few situations where I wanted to Conflagrate into a Faithless Looting but had one Forest and two Rx lands in play. Ultimately, we really only care about a small handful of red cards to cast and I think one or two basic Mountains is enough to play around Path to Exile; Field of Ruin and Assassin's Trophy only stall as we can get most of those targets back again when our engine is online. Shriekhorn is four in the yard by the next draw step while Insolent Neonate need you to have a Dredge card in hand. Most list are also trimming on Dredgers for Creeping Chill and not having to mulligan as often due to Neonate needing a Dredger is nice.
Regarding the triggers, I'm not a judge but here is some nifty site I found regarding the topic. My interpretation is that once the spell resolves, Young Pyromancer's trigger is missed. It's probably best to get into the habit of casting a spell, announcing the trigger.
MTG Judge Website, no author given and a bit dated at 2013
MTG Salvation question/forum, bit more up-to-date from 2017.
Here is my current list if you want to take a look; same as what I posted a page ago though. Also note my graveyard hate is low due the meta.
I have found Loam to be very important to ensure you can build Conflagrate to lethal amounts, hit land drops or buyback Gemstone Mine, or trigger Bloodghast. The later is also a reason I still run a single Dakmore Salvage in the 75.
Match 1 vs Zoo (2-1)
Game 1 - I found out later that my opponent was playing a budget Zoo list he found online, sadly that list really packed incidental hate maindeck. He was on the play and dropped a Dryad Militant into a turn 2 Scavanging Ooze. I promptly scooped.
Game 2 - I don't think he realized why I scoooped, as he didn't really sideboard anything. I boarded as follows:
-1 Golgari Thug; +1 Darkblast - The interaction/removal seems more relevant.
-1 Conflagrate, -1 Cathartic Reunion, -1 Faithless Looting; +3 Lightning Axe - Again, more interaction while keeping a discard outlet handy.
-1 Bloodghast, -1 Dakmor Salvage, -1 Shriekhorn; +3 Thoughtseize - I like this on the play for the chance to proactively hit possible graveyard-hate.
I took a mull and kept a hand with Cathartic Reunion, Darkblast, 2 lands and other dredgers. I played a Blackcleave Cliffs and passed into his turn 1 of a tap land. I turn 2 Reunion into the epic 15 card Dredge getting back some number of Prized Amalgam and Narcomoeba. He plays another tap land and I proceed to win the game with my zombies and a Conflagrate.
Game 3 - He does a little sideboarding and I thought about cutting Thoughtseize. Ultimately I didn't as I really didn't want to see a Scavanging Ooze hit the board again. I kept a hand with Darkblast again but his turn 1 was Dryad Militant into a Tormod's Crypt. I sacrifice my Darkblast to kill the Dryad and pass into him doing nothing. I play a Shriekhorn, the first activation binned a Stinkweed Imp and a Life from the Loam into an upkeep land Creeping Chill to which my opponent popped his Crypt. I proceeded to draw a Reunion and go nuts. He played a few small things that Conflagrate cleaned up for a win.
Match 2 vs Hardened Scales Affinity (2-0)
Game 1 - I put my opponent on Affinity from the last FNM I went to and kept a hand with Shriekhorn and Darkblast. I'm again on the Draw, opponent plays a Stirrings for an Overseer. I play my Horn, binned a Imp and a Creeping Chill; my Imp dredge binned two more Creeping Chills and I manage to clear the board effectly with Darkblast and Conflagrate eventually running him out of threats and getting there.
Game 2 - I have no idea what hate this deck plays, but I assume it's artifact based so I board as follows:
-1 Bloodghast, -1 Shriekhorn; +2 Ancient Grudge - I picked Ghast to come out as Narco's can potentially chump block in the air.
-1 Golgari Thug; +1 Darkblast - Early interaction that can recur and kill most of his threats seems good here.
I kept an okay 7 with some dredgers and a Conflagrate primed to drop them on my second turn. My opponent opens with an Ravenger off an Opal into two Workers. I Conflagrate my whole hand, but made a misplay; I pinged each Worker for 1, Ravenger for 3, and my opponent for 1 forgetting about the Workers tigger. His Arcbound ended up a 5/5. I eventually mill over an Ancient Grudge and Darkblast and use the later to ping off things here and there waiting for his big turn. Eventually he sacs his board to the Ravenger, activates an Inkmoth and goes for the 15/15 infect kill as I responsed with the Grudge. He scoops.
Match 3 vs UW Control (2-1)
Game 1 - I forget the exact sequence, but Dredge did it's thing, my opponent tried hard to stop me with 3 Cryptic Commands but he ran out of answers.
Game 2 - I boarded thinking his main graveyard hate would be Grafdigger's Cage; this may have been a mistake as I didn't see any Logic Knots game 1. Here is what I settled on:
-1 Narcomoeba, -1 Shiekhorn, -1 Conflagrate; +2 Ancient Grudge, +1 Nature's Claim - Ultimately I feel like with Creeping Chill we can just go for it.
I mulled to a slow-ish hand that could get a Life from the Loam engine running. My first Dredge binned a Bloodghast that was quickly removed with a Surgical Extraction. Then my Loam was taken by a Vendilion Clique and I eventually lost to planeswalker beats. I changed my board for game 3, since the Surgical Extraction kinda blindsided me.
Game 3 - I replaced my artifact hate with Thoughsieze to try and force his hand with the Surgical Extraction at inopertune moments. I didn't see any Thoughsiezes however. I did have an uncountered turn 2 Reunion which again saw my Ghasts removed from my deck. But a timely Narco brought multiple Prized Amalgams into play. Creeping Chill also did a bit of work here, I think I actually hit him with the full 4 before he tapped out to Snap Cryptic my Team leaving me open to finish my opponent off with a Conflagrate.
Overall, I'm really happy with how the deck performed. Creeping Chill had some sweet moments and I think helped close out some games quicker than normal (especially vs. UW Control). There was one Rock deck there (friend of mine) who came in 1st overall dispite our records being the same. I think that match is winnable but you do have to work for it. In testing last weekend I won 3-2 vs him playing the list he ran tonight; really comes down to how quickly Scooze can be answered. I hope this helps some of ya with your own testing and brewing. Until next time, Happy Gaming!
The Ultimate Dredge Sideboard Guide by Zen Takahashi
The Ultimate Dredge Sideboard Guide - 2018 Edition by Zen Takahashi
Overall, because Dredge needs a mass of certain cards in order to operated effectively (Namely Dredge cards, enablers, and payoffs) it's better to shave 1-2 cards from each to bring in anti-hate cards for games 2 and 3. For example, here is the list I plan to run next FNM:
1 Darkblast
4 Life from the Loam
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
Enabler (11):
3 Shriekhorn
4 Faithless Looting
4 Cathartic Reunion
Payoff (19):
3 Conflagrate
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Creeping Chill
1 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Copperline Gorge
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Thoughtseize
3 Collective Brutality
3 Lightning Axe
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Darkblast
I plan to cut 1 Conflagrate, 1 Shriekhorn, and either 1 Bloodghast or Narcomoeba to bring in sideboard cards such as Ancient Grudge, Nature's Claim, or Thoughtseize. If I plan to side in Collective Brutality, Lightning Axe, or Nihil Spellbomb then I will look at shaving more in the Enablers as these cards also allow me to discard or draw to get the engine working. Darkblast is just a straight swap for Golgari Thug when I need an extra removal spell.
Hope this helps a little, Happy Gaming!