My struggle with Monastery Swiftspear is that it doesn't close games. It was valuable chip damage when I played it, but wasn't able to take over the games where Pyromancer is killed. I'm looking for a win con to deal that 7+ points of damage without too much investment. Is Swiftspear filling that role for you?
I'm still tweaking the sideboard to hedge bad match-ups. I just swapped a 3rd Collective Brutality for a 2nd Wear/Tear as another catch-all for Bogles, Lantern, and the like. The Rabblemaster should probably be something else to help with Dredge or Tron variants; not sure what yet.
Deck looks sweet! Close to what I'm playing. Swiftspear has been good for me because I like trading creatures early with bolts and our removal and getting in damage with it. Plus in the late game a hastey threat that only costs 1 CMC when we could have an army of Elementals thanks to PZ or untap with a Bedlam Reveler in play and then play a Swiftspear followed by a couple spells is just so good to me.
I've been thinking: what about Hazoret instead of something else? Or is four Mana too much to ask for?
Ultimately I decided on Seeker of the Way and ran it through a couple of leagues. To be honest, it was a lot of fun -- combat tricks & bluffing prowess buffs, crazy life gain swings with Helix, etc. Very enjoyable matches but a doubt tickled the back of my mind and slowly solidified. I've been trying to push Selfeisek's list to be more aggro; I think that's a mistake. At it's heart, this feels more like a Jund (or Abzan) attrition/value deck with the reach of burn.
Another false dawn from yours truly? Perhaps. But I think I've finally settled on a list. I'll try to post it later today when I'm on my PC. The quick version is only 10 creatures -- 4x Pyromancer, 4x Reveler, 2x Rabblemaster -- plus 3 Blood Moon.
That sounds awesome, love to see a list! I agree with your assessment on how this deck operates. I jokingly call it "White Jund" because it operates similarly to Jund. I have been running two Rabblemaster and I'm thinking about adding back the 4th Lingering Souls over one and then dropping a land to go back to 19 lands for a K-Command, but I'm not too sure at this point. I still gotta test a lot and see what I like and what feels best. Swiftspear have been awesome for me - especially early in the game where you can double bolt turn two or hand disruption and bolt or some other combination of two 1CMC spells. I love Swiftspear in this deck, it's interesting how we have differing opinions on it. The deck is just too much fun!
Your list seems pretty close to the original (that's performing so well for Selfeisek). Dismember is the only inclusion I'd question. Are there situations where you want it instead of another Terminate? I wouldn't think you'd need it early for 1 mana + 4 life given Bolts and such; late you'll probably have the mana but maybe not the life. Shrine is an interesting suggestion for more inevitability.
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On a different note, ignore my previous comments about Burn being an even match-up. I was horribly wrong. Even with Collective Brutality and Lightning Helix, I've struggled to clock them. Pyromancer and Kiln Fiend die too easily and Souls are too slow. Going burn to the face makes us a slower version of their deck. I now see why the original list plays Dragon's Claw; three have joined my sideboard and I've added a MB Plains to fetch to make the manabase less painful.
I'm wavering on my inclusion of Kiln Fiend. He's been great against decks with little removal. He won a match for me versus Living End where triple bolt meant a kill from 16 life. But outside of "combo" decks like that, I think he's a subtle win-more card. In most matches where I'm playing him, would I still have won if he was something else or I had to wait for Pyromancer/Reveler/Command? I'm leaning towards the answer being yes.
I think most of those are decent inclusions. Soulfire Grand Master would be difficult to turn on for it's ability, but the life gain on all of our spells is amazing against Burn. I honestly haven't considered that but I might do just that now since we have a painful manabase as it is.
I wonder if one or two Apostle's Blessing to protect young peezy and reveler would be worth it.
Midrange strategies don't really have room for protection spells that don't also do something else. (Valorous Stance for example) It makes a lot more sense in combo decks, however, where you're trying to go off and kill them in one turn (Infect, Bloo,Battle Rage Death's Shadow etc)
That's true, I didn't think about that. The slot is better used elsewhere. On another note, watched the match I mentioned in an earlier post where Selfeisek is playing against Caleb Durward, and Caleb kind of got pummeled. Deck is SOOOOO sweet. I think this might be my favorite deck of all time.
I wonder if one or two Apostle's Blessing to protect young peezy and reveler would be worth it.
I actually considered it in a flex slot, but what do you take out for that exactly? I run two Collective Brutality, so I was thinking running a Blessing in place of a Brutality. If you run it, let us know how it works! I'll try and test it out soon.
On a more generalized side note, I love that printing a super efficient 1 drop removal has single handedly made 3 drop, 3 (or less) toughness creatures playable. Yay irony.
Preach! The move from Bolt being the premier removal to Push really makes a difference and makes other creatures viable. Rabblemaster was always one of my favorites (I started playing Magic when Dragons was recently released), so it's really awesome that the card has gained more viability. I'm loving playing with him, and have thought about getting into Jund playing Rabblemaster, but shelling out $650-$700 for 12 cards is a lot out of my price range....
Yeah that's the one weakness that worries me. Will it survive long enough to do 7+ damage? If the answer is yes, I'm happy. I can probably deal another 13 points between burn and tokens. Discard helps here but it's not foolproof and it won't always show up in your hand. If it doesn't survive, it leaves no impact on the board though. I'll see how it works out.
Funny that you mention Rabblemaster, that's the only other card (besides Blood Moon) I've been trying to decide whether to include or not. I previously played it in a Jund Moon deck and like you said it's a very quick clock on an empty board. Plus it's a bit of a pet card for me. The higher cost gives me pause though because 3 CMC is a jump for such a lean deck. I'd definitely love to hear how that pair work for you with an extra land.
You're exactly right, and dealing 7+ damage with Kiln Fiend is pretty awesome sounding. Rabblemaster has been awesome, the extra threats outside of relying on Lingering Souls tokens and Swiftspear has been awesome, which is why I added another Rabblemaster over the fourth Lingering souls. I'll be testing with a friend tonight, I'll try and let you know how it goes.
Also, not very reliable, but there is a video posted on CFB by Caleb Durward playing Esper Gifts. In his first round, he plays against, you betcha, Selfeisek and his Mardu Reveler list. Not very reliable, but it could help see how they go about playing the deck and what his decisions he makes piloting the deck. I haven't watched it all, but it could be something to learn off of, even if we don't know his/her thought process exactly.
I've been playing a similar list in friendly leagues online, with an eye to playing competitive once I'm comfortable with the list. There are a couple things in Selfeisek's version that seem odd decisions to me although s/he's obviously having a lot of success with it. My thoughts:
Burst Lightning as it seems a little narrow. Typically I was doing something wrong if I had the mana to kick it.
While I'll eventually try playing 3, for now I'm running zero Moons. It feels like you either want to make it Plan A, B, or C or use the slot for something else.
The 3 Wooded Foothills are a head scratcher. All but your basic Swamp already produce R so fetching for a Mountain seems like a corner case. Plus that comes at the cost of fetching the Swamp you'll need if you land Blood Moon.
Along those lines, Helix can be difficult to cast early unless your fetches line up. White is your tertiary color and fetching/shocking just to cast Helix negates the life gain.
Faithless Looting seems to be a "skill check" card. At times it can approximate draw two for R if you're pitching extra lands or Souls.
I had Kolaghan's Command stuck in my hand a few times because 3 CMC is on the high side for a deck running 19 land, but more often there just wasn't an opportunity to get value from it. I ended up using the weakest mode (two damage and discard) more often that I'd like because holding it doesn't make sense with a Reveler.
The version I'm running now is -3 Wooded Foothills, -2 Helix, -2 K Command, -Moon, -Burst Lightning and +2 Marsh Flats, +Swamp, +2 Collective Brutality, +1 Swiftspear, +3 Kiln Fiend. I'm not sold on that configuration of Swiftspear/Fiend, but I'm testing it out. Sideboard has morphed too.
Burn has been a very close match-up the couple of times I've faced it. Should be better now that I have 2x Helix in the SB plus another Collective Brutality. Midrange has been mostly comfortable -- most matches have been grinding an opponent to a low life total as we both run out of gas, then looting sandbagged lands or dropping Reveler gives me the last handful of damage needed. I'm interested to see how I fare against Company decks since the one match I've played I couldn't quite turn the corner against instant, value creatures.
Sounds awesome! I agree with the lands issue, changed the fetches myself to 2 Marsh Flats and I run an Arid Mesa as well. Gonna add a Swamp in place of the one Wooded Foothills I have though, as I feel it could use an extra black source that isn't a shock. I also run two Brutality over one K-Command and the one Burst Lightning and it feels really good so far. Thought about adding another Swiftspear myself. How has the Swiftspear and Kiln Fiends been performing overall?
We're definitely on the same page with lands. That Swamp makes even more sense if you (or I) do try a Blood Moon maindeck. I'm still pondering the Swiftspear/Kiln Fiend numbers. I've now played three friendly leagues on MTGO to 5-0, 4-1, and 3-2 finishes with losses to Knightfall, U Tron, and Burn. Kiln Fiend has operated almost as extra Young Pyromancers, albeit more tall than wide. Not ideal that it's so susceptible to disruption or blocking, but one Fiend can end the game in a couple turns if it's unanswered. I'm going to run a full set next league and see how I feel. With 4x Fiends, I'm wondering if Swiftspear is impactful enough. It's nice to have additional 1 drops, but it's a weak clock unless you're consistently casting your instants/sorceries on your first main phase. I may drop them for additional burn this next time around and see if I miss them.
Kiln Fiend, in theory, seems sweet in this deck since with this list, we want to pump out as much spells as possible, but with its susceptibility to removal I think Kiln Fiend should be more for combo decks than this one. You'd have to play Manamorphose and some other spells if you want to get the most out of your Kiln Fiends. But if it's working for you try it out and keep posting your results with it.
I dropped Blood Moon, and only kept the one Swamp in the main since there are plenty of black sources and the list is so heavy on the red. I have opted to play Two Swiftspear and two Rabblemaster in the list with 20 lands. One Rabblemaster wasn't enough when I really wanted more bombs so I dropped a Lingering Souls for it instead. I might take it to my local modern event tomorrow evening and post how it does in this forum. Rabblemaster ends the game in a hurry, I can tell you that. With the discard spells to get rid of removal for our threats and hard hitters like Rabble man and Reveler, the games can get super grindy or be ended in short order.
I've been playing a similar list in friendly leagues online, with an eye to playing competitive once I'm comfortable with the list. There are a couple things in Selfeisek's version that seem odd decisions to me although s/he's obviously having a lot of success with it. My thoughts:
Burst Lightning as it seems a little narrow. Typically I was doing something wrong if I had the mana to kick it.
While I'll eventually try playing 3, for now I'm running zero Moons. It feels like you either want to make it Plan A, B, or C or use the slot for something else.
The 3 Wooded Foothills are a head scratcher. All but your basic Swamp already produce R so fetching for a Mountain seems like a corner case. Plus that comes at the cost of fetching the Swamp you'll need if you land Blood Moon.
Along those lines, Helix can be difficult to cast early unless your fetches line up. White is your tertiary color and fetching/shocking just to cast Helix negates the life gain.
Faithless Looting seems to be a "skill check" card. At times it can approximate draw two for R if you're pitching extra lands or Souls.
I had Kolaghan's Command stuck in my hand a few times because 3 CMC is on the high side for a deck running 19 land, but more often there just wasn't an opportunity to get value from it. I ended up using the weakest mode (two damage and discard) more often that I'd like because holding it doesn't make sense with a Reveler.
The version I'm running now is -3 Wooded Foothills, -2 Helix, -2 K Command, -Moon, -Burst Lightning and +2 Marsh Flats, +Swamp, +2 Collective Brutality, +1 Swiftspear, +3 Kiln Fiend. I'm not sold on that configuration of Swiftspear/Fiend, but I'm testing it out. Sideboard has morphed too.
Burn has been a very close match-up the couple of times I've faced it. Should be better now that I have 2x Helix in the SB plus another Collective Brutality. Midrange has been mostly comfortable -- most matches have been grinding an opponent to a low life total as we both run out of gas, then looting sandbagged lands or dropping Reveler gives me the last handful of damage needed. I'm interested to see how I fare against Company decks since the one match I've played I couldn't quite turn the corner against instant, value creatures.
Sounds awesome! I agree with the lands issue, changed the fetches myself to 2 Marsh Flats and I run an Arid Mesa as well. Gonna add a Swamp in place of the one Wooded Foothills I have though, as I feel it could use an extra black source that isn't a shock. I also run two Brutality over one K-Command and the one Burst Lightning and it feels really good so far. Thought about adding another Swiftspear myself. How has the Swiftspear and Kiln Fiends been performing overall?
Yeah, first thing I'll try is cutting the main deck moon and adding a land (Inspiring Vantage probably).
Sounds awesome, let me know how you like it! How do you feel the Burn matchup is for you? What do you think about playing other control and mid-range matchups and what is your strategy against those two archetypes so far?
The only issue I've been having some times is getting stuck in two lands for too long.
I haven't played enough to start making changes, have you changed anything from the list?
I tried different things like a Push over Burst Lightning and I also tried main decking Collective Brutality because my local meta has a few burn decks and grindy mid-range decks, but I'm going to start bringing it back to the original list I think. Swiftspear is surprisingly good in this deck, nothing else you can replace feels as good as Swiftspear. I might add another land because I have the same issues with lands. Even keeping one Landers with a Faithless Looting in hand feels terrible when you don't draw a second or third land. This deck really wants to play two spells a turn to pump out a really fast Bedlam Reveler and make tons of tokens via Young PZ, so I think an extra land will help a ton. Bedlam Reveler in this deck feels like it wins instantly, and it's a ton of fun to chain two or more in a single turn. I'd probably drop a K-Command or Blood Moon for another land and keep everything else the same right now. Depends on your local meta though.
I have the deck in paper and it feels awesome. It's incredibly grindy and it has game with just about anything. An active pyromancer or resolved Bedlam Reveler feels absolutely bonkers and I love the deck so much so far! What are your thoughts on it so far?
Hey guys, I have a question! Regarding Eldrazi and Taxes, what does the matchup look like, and how does one board in for burn, and what are the most effective cards against them in this matchup? Thanks in advance!
Hey guys! Just took the Mardu Bedlam Reveler list to a local modern event and needless to say, Burn is not a good matchup... do you guys have any advice on what might be good targets for burn via Inquisition of Kozilek? Thank you in advance!
Do you mean an extra land from the "stock list" playing 19 lands? I currently play 20 in my list.
Deck looks sweet! Close to what I'm playing. Swiftspear has been good for me because I like trading creatures early with bolts and our removal and getting in damage with it. Plus in the late game a hastey threat that only costs 1 CMC when we could have an army of Elementals thanks to PZ or untap with a Bedlam Reveler in play and then play a Swiftspear followed by a couple spells is just so good to me.
I've been thinking: what about Hazoret instead of something else? Or is four Mana too much to ask for?
That sounds awesome, love to see a list! I agree with your assessment on how this deck operates. I jokingly call it "White Jund" because it operates similarly to Jund. I have been running two Rabblemaster and I'm thinking about adding back the 4th Lingering Souls over one and then dropping a land to go back to 19 lands for a K-Command, but I'm not too sure at this point. I still gotta test a lot and see what I like and what feels best. Swiftspear have been awesome for me - especially early in the game where you can double bolt turn two or hand disruption and bolt or some other combination of two 1CMC spells. I love Swiftspear in this deck, it's interesting how we have differing opinions on it. The deck is just too much fun!
I think most of those are decent inclusions. Soulfire Grand Master would be difficult to turn on for it's ability, but the life gain on all of our spells is amazing against Burn. I honestly haven't considered that but I might do just that now since we have a painful manabase as it is.
That's true, I didn't think about that. The slot is better used elsewhere. On another note, watched the match I mentioned in an earlier post where Selfeisek is playing against Caleb Durward, and Caleb kind of got pummeled. Deck is SOOOOO sweet. I think this might be my favorite deck of all time.
I actually considered it in a flex slot, but what do you take out for that exactly? I run two Collective Brutality, so I was thinking running a Blessing in place of a Brutality. If you run it, let us know how it works! I'll try and test it out soon.
Preach! The move from Bolt being the premier removal to Push really makes a difference and makes other creatures viable. Rabblemaster was always one of my favorites (I started playing Magic when Dragons was recently released), so it's really awesome that the card has gained more viability. I'm loving playing with him, and have thought about getting into Jund playing Rabblemaster, but shelling out $650-$700 for 12 cards is a lot out of my price range....
You're exactly right, and dealing 7+ damage with Kiln Fiend is pretty awesome sounding. Rabblemaster has been awesome, the extra threats outside of relying on Lingering Souls tokens and Swiftspear has been awesome, which is why I added another Rabblemaster over the fourth Lingering souls. I'll be testing with a friend tonight, I'll try and let you know how it goes.
Also, not very reliable, but there is a video posted on CFB by Caleb Durward playing Esper Gifts. In his first round, he plays against, you betcha, Selfeisek and his Mardu Reveler list. Not very reliable, but it could help see how they go about playing the deck and what his decisions he makes piloting the deck. I haven't watched it all, but it could be something to learn off of, even if we don't know his/her thought process exactly.
Kiln Fiend, in theory, seems sweet in this deck since with this list, we want to pump out as much spells as possible, but with its susceptibility to removal I think Kiln Fiend should be more for combo decks than this one. You'd have to play Manamorphose and some other spells if you want to get the most out of your Kiln Fiends. But if it's working for you try it out and keep posting your results with it.
I dropped Blood Moon, and only kept the one Swamp in the main since there are plenty of black sources and the list is so heavy on the red. I have opted to play Two Swiftspear and two Rabblemaster in the list with 20 lands. One Rabblemaster wasn't enough when I really wanted more bombs so I dropped a Lingering Souls for it instead. I might take it to my local modern event tomorrow evening and post how it does in this forum. Rabblemaster ends the game in a hurry, I can tell you that. With the discard spells to get rid of removal for our threats and hard hitters like Rabble man and Reveler, the games can get super grindy or be ended in short order.
Sounds awesome! I agree with the lands issue, changed the fetches myself to 2 Marsh Flats and I run an Arid Mesa as well. Gonna add a Swamp in place of the one Wooded Foothills I have though, as I feel it could use an extra black source that isn't a shock. I also run two Brutality over one K-Command and the one Burst Lightning and it feels really good so far. Thought about adding another Swiftspear myself. How has the Swiftspear and Kiln Fiends been performing overall?
Sounds awesome, let me know how you like it! How do you feel the Burn matchup is for you? What do you think about playing other control and mid-range matchups and what is your strategy against those two archetypes so far?
I tried different things like a Push over Burst Lightning and I also tried main decking Collective Brutality because my local meta has a few burn decks and grindy mid-range decks, but I'm going to start bringing it back to the original list I think. Swiftspear is surprisingly good in this deck, nothing else you can replace feels as good as Swiftspear. I might add another land because I have the same issues with lands. Even keeping one Landers with a Faithless Looting in hand feels terrible when you don't draw a second or third land. This deck really wants to play two spells a turn to pump out a really fast Bedlam Reveler and make tons of tokens via Young PZ, so I think an extra land will help a ton. Bedlam Reveler in this deck feels like it wins instantly, and it's a ton of fun to chain two or more in a single turn. I'd probably drop a K-Command or Blood Moon for another land and keep everything else the same right now. Depends on your local meta though.
I have the deck in paper and it feels awesome. It's incredibly grindy and it has game with just about anything. An active pyromancer or resolved Bedlam Reveler feels absolutely bonkers and I love the deck so much so far! What are your thoughts on it so far?