Jund should be a good matchup to begin with at ~60/40. Even better than Abzan because no Lingering Souls, flyers, or life gain. Kira, Great Glass Spinner is a nightmare for them, and they generally fall flat against CoCo. GoST can be a fast clock if they have a low creature count draw. Flash creature do well versus early Liliana of the Veil, although Last Hope wrecks our world. I prefer to side out Path to Exile and Phantasmal Image for whatever creatures I can find in the sideboard, or a grindy card like Nissa, Steward of Elements.
As far as Rhox War Monk goes, it is better versus burn, zoo and some random matches like mono white taxes. Not what to bring in versus most midrange decks though.
Just wanted to update that I added Nissa, Steward of Elements to the sideboard versus control and she is a monster. In the match with Jeskai control, between scrying to the bottom and putting free cards on board, she gained about 8 cards, took 7 damage, and overkill won with the ultimate. In fairness Rest in Peace, Eidolon of Rhetoric, and 2 negate all showed up in timely manners too. Ended up with only about 20 cards left in the deck match 2.
Your results seem similar to my typical results with Bant which is unsurprising. Non-Jeskai Control should normally be a bye as should living end and Goryo's vengeance decks. My blue moon matches have been rough, but mostly due to mana issues. The one match I was able to draw normally, I was able to fight through 2 Anger of the Gods and Jace. The ultra aggro matches are a problem for me too and midrange being 50/50 is consistent. It makes me want to make Geist more of a primary win con. I may move try 4 geist, 6 dorks, and 2 Steel of the Godhead to turbo win more often.
Great list and a nice read in your reddit thread. I used to run a near copy of Ultimar's list with Geist of St. Traft and a few Favorable Winds in the place of Curious Obsession which didn't exist at the time. It was quite clunky. Emptying my hand in a timely manner for pressure and dead Vial draws were too much of a problem. Moving to Bant and swapping out vial for Birds made a huge difference even before adding CoCo. Tamiyo makes a lot of sense in your build too.
My biggest curiosity is what do you consider the competitive advantage of Curious Spirits over CoCo spirits? Does it shore up a particular matchup? Does it come from behind better?
I can see the low curve is real and the focus on 1 attacker allows you to better slow roll Rattlechains to blank removal instead of using it as an offensive threat. It would seem to favor grindier matches. Little Thalia seems to be a beater versus Combo and Burn and a card that Coco would not want to run. Good stuff!
JTMS/BBE Update- My LGS had their first unbanned game night and allowed 10 proxies for maximum diversity. 18 players showed up to test the new cards and play against them too. Of the 18 there were 3 Jace decks and 1 BBE deck that I could tell. Of the matches I saw when I was done with my rounds, only one had Jace. In it, Miracles did poorly against Jeskai control (no Jace) mostly due to difficulty protecting him. Dead cards like Terminus didn't help either. He seemed okay in the second match as an early threat, but couldn't win that game either. I did glance over at one point and saw Jace in U/W control beat a Lantern deck 2-0.
I underestimated BBE and found a new brew piloted by one of the better players in town. It was a Naya Big Zoo deck. From what I can tell, the curve goes Bolt, Path, Wild Nacatl, Noble Heirarch at 1, Voice of resurgence, scavenging ooze at 2, Loxodon Smiter, Knight of the Reliquary, Renegade Rallier at 3 and topped off with BBE. The Rallier is there to bring back Voice, Seal of Primordiam, and Ghost Quarter. A few utility cards I saw included Dromoka's Command and Blood Moon.
The final round ended up with two Bant Spirit decks and the BBE deck at 3-0. I was 6-0 in matches (Mono W Taxes, bant Eldrazi, Mardu Pyromancer) and played versus the BBE deck while the other spirits player went against Mono U Tron. He lost in 2 and I won in 3 for the 4-0 and only undefeated on the night. Overall the BBE deck resembled a CoCo deck with a little more pressure from having haste. It felt very stompy but still with some valuable interaction with removal and Ghost Quarter tricks. I honestly should have lost game 3, but he didn't see the line of play he needed, I assume since it was his first time playing the deck in paper.
Overall I would say Jace is a good card but will not wreck the format. It may well kill lantern for what it's worth. BBE will bring a few new decks but will need to be in a high pressure shell because a 3/2 haste isn't that great on it's own. In the right build she actually could compete with Coco. I wouldn't be surprised to see a G/R haste deck similar to the naya build pop up soon.
That's a very good point about tapping out. Really not where an aggro deck wants to be. Perhaps I'm overzealous on how powerful Jace actually is. It seems Bant Spirits matches up well with him and his expected decks with all the flash and hexproof. My LGS is allowing Jace and BBE for modern tomorrow. Will be fun to see how it goes. I'll be running Caleb's SCG Philly main board with 2 phantasmal image and 1 Geist being replaced by a BoP, Kira, and a Qasali Pridemage.
So Jace is back which is relevant, as is BBE which is not as relevant to us. I wanted to discuss which cards gain and lose value for Bant Spirits, as I believe spirits is in a good position in the Mind Sculpted meta that will be modern for a while. First, my opinion on the likely Jace decks:
Grixis and U/W control: already stellar matchups for us with CoCo being very strong and GoST being a silver bullet against grixis while Spell Queller + Selfless Spirit winning out versus U/W handily. Expect 2-3 Jace being a probable finisher for each deck. U/W may have to drop a Supreme Verdict and a Cryptic to stay on curve. Versus Jace in these builds, I believe GoST gains value as a sticky threat that can't be bounced while Queller catches it. The hexproof and protection from Spirits versus Bant Value decks is a distinct advantage to Queller since control decks always have a handy answer. Additionally, Rattlechains gains value here by preventing the unsummon clause and providing cards to stay in hand to flash in at end step to take out Jace with a mostly tapped out opponent. Remand becomes very valuable for U/W, so a Cavern of Souls would improve the match.
B/U/X midrange- Hand disruption + early kill spells are already problematic, especially on the draw. This Jace shell may be more problematic that current black based midrange decks. Here, Kira, Great Glass Spinner gains value as a way to ensure enough pressure to attack into a Jace. GoST may be good too since there will likely be fewer Goyf type threats set up as blockers than in B/G/X decks as the double blue on Jace and double black on Lilliana may stress their mana base.
Miracles- This could be very problematic as a single angel blocks our attacks pretty well and Selfless Spirit and Spell Queller can't touch Terminus. Hopefully it just ends up being a bad deck that mulligans poorly and is inconsistent. 4 Remand and 4 Path are the only early interaction, so it would be a bit of a race. This deck is looking to Turn 4 Jace mostly, so perhaps Spell Queller and luck are our best outs. Cavern of Souls would help out with early remands.
Jeskai- Already a very difficult match since it plays draw go like we prefer, but has better removal against our small creatures than U/W and Grixis. Jace makes this deck much better and it probably receives the biggest boost. So again, sticky threats like GoST and Kira with support from Drogskol Captain will be cards that gain value when more people move towards Jace.
Jace Creature Midrange- Jace is a good enough card value creature decks would want him. There will be builds with 6-8 Mana dorks looking to turbo into 3 drop followed by T3 Jace. Cards like Knight of the Reliquary and Courser of Kruphix help control the draw alongside Jace. Perhaps new Nissa can play things for free. For Bant Spirits, this would be a race and one where flying is likely a boon.
Meta Reaction- Fingers crossed for less Eldrazi since TKS being unsummoned is rough. Delve creatures take a hit. Faster decks will rise to get under Jace like Bogles (especially with the 3 Leylines in the main), Infect, Burn, etc. Gains from Jund with BBE/K-Command loops should actually hurt affinity, but may make up for it with gains versus Jace decks. Tron may get out-controlled and lose some ground.
Big Question: Should Spirits pick up 1-2 Jace? We have flex slots in Phantasmal Image/ Nebelgast Herald or could cut 1 CoCo for curve considerations. Each mode is pretty good in a vacuum and it effectively gains us 3-5 life. Being a reactive deck, fate sealing + Spell Queller/Rattlechains is always good. Bouncing a creature allows it to be quelled later too, or at least buys a turn from it's attack. Very handy against go-tall creature decks. Maybe not the best since we block so poorly though. May be worth a try!
I did run a mix of CoCo and Vial when I was collecting the Collected Compananies when moving from U/W to Bant. The cards being played side by side really showed how weak Vial is by comparison. While it is mana ramp, it is also card disadvantage. Spirits doesn't really need more flash. Even a turn 1 mana dork felt more powerful than Vial. With our creature power highly concentrated in the 3 drop slot, Vial just doesn't work with the curve like it does with D&T or Merfolk (or even Illusions).
With that said, you could build your spirits to take advantage of vial + coco, but it would look quite different. You would probably want to rely more on Phantasmal Image copying Spell Queller and Drogskol Captain and remove some Geist of Saint Traft to make room for it. Still weaker than higher threat density., but maybe an interesting option.
Has there been any determination of the 'best' cards for flex slots or are they just meta calls? From what I see best options are:
Path to Exile #4- Good vs. Eldrazi and DS, lowers threat density
Mana dork #5-6- More reliance on CoCo, T2 Geist. Perhaps best with 4 GoST and 2 SotG. Lowers threat density. Phantasmal Image x1-2- Good vs Midrange for Captain locks or copying huge creatures like Eldrazi and 'Goyf. Sometimes a dead/bad card. Nebelgast herald x1-3- Raises curve. A CoCo threat. Bluffs Spell Queller. Flash. Good versus aggro, DS, Eldrazi, and when racing.
Geist #4- Pretty good vs. midrange, great versus control. Good option for SotG x2 decks. Legend Rule + CoCo filtering is a nonbo. Other shells do GoST better. mirror entity x1- Excellent late game card, end of opponent's turn CoCo hit. Hoses Ensnaring Bridge with mana dorks. Great interaction with mana dorks and Dogskol Captain. No flying. Often acts as an enchantment instead of a threat. Not awesome with Angel tokens. Kira, Great Glass-Spinner x1- great versus midrange. Nonbo with steel of the godhead and rattlechains. Poor versus aggro, useless versus combo. Sideboard hero? Thalia, Guardian of Thraben x1-2- nonbo with CoCo. Not a spirit. No flying. Hedge versus Abzan and combo. Qasali Pridemage x 1-2 - Mainboard hate vs Robots, oblivion stone, chalice of the void, blood moon, worship and ensnaring bridge. Not a spirit, not a flyer. Exalted a plus! steel of the godhead x1-2- Hedge versus burn. All in on the GoST plan. Lowers threat density. Clunky.
Right now I have 5 flex slots after going down to 3 Selfless Spirit. I use 2 Herald, 1 Path, 1 SotG, and dork #5. I feel it could be improved, but also that the flex slots can really change the direction of the deck.
A an example- Goldfishing, The 4-3 Dork/Geist split gives 14% chance of a turn 2 Geist on the play. The 6-4 split gives 24% chance on the play or 28% on the draw. CoCo is made much worse though as 3 potential threats are now dorks or legend ruled.
Well I went 2-2 or worse for 6 weeks in a row playing in 2-3 tournaments a week, including not earning a single push promo in 5 September FNM's. I took a week break and played it again on Monday and it did well went 3-1 for first place. Just depends on the matchup. I struggle against any deck with a heavy distribution of removal or a combo. URW control/saheeli, GB value are all very hard.
I put in two shapers' sanctuary to fight removal. Card seems bonkers; i've seen it in matches for other decks. I didn't see it at all, and sided it out because my opponents were on valukut and thopter/sword.
Removal heavy midrange decks are kind of what this deck does well against. Every single creature in the deck, with the exception of Nebelgast Herald, interacts with removal in some way or is GoST and hexproof himself. If you find it to still be a problem, perhaps running some mix of 4 Geist + 2 Steel of the Godhead, + 1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, or + 2 phantasmal image for captain locks should make the deck more tight to 1-for-1 strategies. Keep in mind shapers' sanctuary is only a decent card if it draws you 2 or more cards. Spirits exist because they often act as 1-for-1 or better on their own.
K-7, that looks like a very tight list. It would appear to favor longer games and play a more tempo/control role versus tempo/aggro, the choice for most lists in the thread. Good luck and report back often!
That's a fair take, however I would argue in that match (and many matches) it would be best cycled away to get more threats or answers. Top priority would be to race and set up CoCo and Cord blowouts from Spell Queller and surprise pumping a Mausoleum Wanderer. Mana leak slows down your board build up by comparison. They have Coco and cord to find their missing piece, adding inevitability to the combo going off.
On paper Cast Out looks unplayable in modern, but so does Nebelgast Herald, the best line of defense against aggro and big mana creature decks. Consider it a cantrip first and a great top deck late game second. I bet you'll be pleasantly surprised at how it plays in real life.
Ace1, I'm running a similar list as you and have found 2-3 Cast Out to be solid game 1 insurance. Great versus unbeatable cards in a similar way as detention spere, but with flash. With normal matches, it usually just gets cycled. I pulled 1 Selfless Spirit to fit a third cast out and have been happy. It's also a perfect card to pull post board. Highly recommend you test it for yourself.
As far as Rhox War Monk goes, it is better versus burn, zoo and some random matches like mono white taxes. Not what to bring in versus most midrange decks though.
My biggest curiosity is what do you consider the competitive advantage of Curious Spirits over CoCo spirits? Does it shore up a particular matchup? Does it come from behind better?
I can see the low curve is real and the focus on 1 attacker allows you to better slow roll Rattlechains to blank removal instead of using it as an offensive threat. It would seem to favor grindier matches. Little Thalia seems to be a beater versus Combo and Burn and a card that Coco would not want to run. Good stuff!
I underestimated BBE and found a new brew piloted by one of the better players in town. It was a Naya Big Zoo deck. From what I can tell, the curve goes Bolt, Path, Wild Nacatl, Noble Heirarch at 1, Voice of resurgence, scavenging ooze at 2, Loxodon Smiter, Knight of the Reliquary, Renegade Rallier at 3 and topped off with BBE. The Rallier is there to bring back Voice, Seal of Primordiam, and Ghost Quarter. A few utility cards I saw included Dromoka's Command and Blood Moon.
The final round ended up with two Bant Spirit decks and the BBE deck at 3-0. I was 6-0 in matches (Mono W Taxes, bant Eldrazi, Mardu Pyromancer) and played versus the BBE deck while the other spirits player went against Mono U Tron. He lost in 2 and I won in 3 for the 4-0 and only undefeated on the night. Overall the BBE deck resembled a CoCo deck with a little more pressure from having haste. It felt very stompy but still with some valuable interaction with removal and Ghost Quarter tricks. I honestly should have lost game 3, but he didn't see the line of play he needed, I assume since it was his first time playing the deck in paper.
Overall I would say Jace is a good card but will not wreck the format. It may well kill lantern for what it's worth. BBE will bring a few new decks but will need to be in a high pressure shell because a 3/2 haste isn't that great on it's own. In the right build she actually could compete with Coco. I wouldn't be surprised to see a G/R haste deck similar to the naya build pop up soon.
Grixis and U/W control: already stellar matchups for us with CoCo being very strong and GoST being a silver bullet against grixis while Spell Queller + Selfless Spirit winning out versus U/W handily. Expect 2-3 Jace being a probable finisher for each deck. U/W may have to drop a Supreme Verdict and a Cryptic to stay on curve. Versus Jace in these builds, I believe GoST gains value as a sticky threat that can't be bounced while Queller catches it. The hexproof and protection from Spirits versus Bant Value decks is a distinct advantage to Queller since control decks always have a handy answer. Additionally, Rattlechains gains value here by preventing the unsummon clause and providing cards to stay in hand to flash in at end step to take out Jace with a mostly tapped out opponent. Remand becomes very valuable for U/W, so a Cavern of Souls would improve the match.
B/U/X midrange- Hand disruption + early kill spells are already problematic, especially on the draw. This Jace shell may be more problematic that current black based midrange decks. Here, Kira, Great Glass Spinner gains value as a way to ensure enough pressure to attack into a Jace. GoST may be good too since there will likely be fewer Goyf type threats set up as blockers than in B/G/X decks as the double blue on Jace and double black on Lilliana may stress their mana base.
Miracles- This could be very problematic as a single angel blocks our attacks pretty well and Selfless Spirit and Spell Queller can't touch Terminus. Hopefully it just ends up being a bad deck that mulligans poorly and is inconsistent. 4 Remand and 4 Path are the only early interaction, so it would be a bit of a race. This deck is looking to Turn 4 Jace mostly, so perhaps Spell Queller and luck are our best outs. Cavern of Souls would help out with early remands.
Jeskai- Already a very difficult match since it plays draw go like we prefer, but has better removal against our small creatures than U/W and Grixis. Jace makes this deck much better and it probably receives the biggest boost. So again, sticky threats like GoST and Kira with support from Drogskol Captain will be cards that gain value when more people move towards Jace.
Jace Creature Midrange- Jace is a good enough card value creature decks would want him. There will be builds with 6-8 Mana dorks looking to turbo into 3 drop followed by T3 Jace. Cards like Knight of the Reliquary and Courser of Kruphix help control the draw alongside Jace. Perhaps new Nissa can play things for free. For Bant Spirits, this would be a race and one where flying is likely a boon.
Meta Reaction- Fingers crossed for less Eldrazi since TKS being unsummoned is rough. Delve creatures take a hit. Faster decks will rise to get under Jace like Bogles (especially with the 3 Leylines in the main), Infect, Burn, etc. Gains from Jund with BBE/K-Command loops should actually hurt affinity, but may make up for it with gains versus Jace decks. Tron may get out-controlled and lose some ground.
Big Question: Should Spirits pick up 1-2 Jace? We have flex slots in Phantasmal Image/ Nebelgast Herald or could cut 1 CoCo for curve considerations. Each mode is pretty good in a vacuum and it effectively gains us 3-5 life. Being a reactive deck, fate sealing + Spell Queller/Rattlechains is always good. Bouncing a creature allows it to be quelled later too, or at least buys a turn from it's attack. Very handy against go-tall creature decks. Maybe not the best since we block so poorly though. May be worth a try!
With that said, you could build your spirits to take advantage of vial + coco, but it would look quite different. You would probably want to rely more on Phantasmal Image copying Spell Queller and Drogskol Captain and remove some Geist of Saint Traft to make room for it. Still weaker than higher threat density., but maybe an interesting option.
Path to Exile #4- Good vs. Eldrazi and DS, lowers threat density
Mana dork #5-6- More reliance on CoCo, T2 Geist. Perhaps best with 4 GoST and 2 SotG. Lowers threat density.
Phantasmal Image x1-2- Good vs Midrange for Captain locks or copying huge creatures like Eldrazi and 'Goyf. Sometimes a dead/bad card.
Nebelgast herald x1-3- Raises curve. A CoCo threat. Bluffs Spell Queller. Flash. Good versus aggro, DS, Eldrazi, and when racing.
Geist #4- Pretty good vs. midrange, great versus control. Good option for SotG x2 decks. Legend Rule + CoCo filtering is a nonbo. Other shells do GoST better.
mirror entity x1- Excellent late game card, end of opponent's turn CoCo hit. Hoses Ensnaring Bridge with mana dorks. Great interaction with mana dorks and Dogskol Captain. No flying. Often acts as an enchantment instead of a threat. Not awesome with Angel tokens.
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner x1- great versus midrange. Nonbo with steel of the godhead and rattlechains. Poor versus aggro, useless versus combo. Sideboard hero?
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben x1-2- nonbo with CoCo. Not a spirit. No flying. Hedge versus Abzan and combo.
Qasali Pridemage x 1-2 - Mainboard hate vs Robots, oblivion stone, chalice of the void, blood moon, worship and ensnaring bridge. Not a spirit, not a flyer. Exalted a plus!
steel of the godhead x1-2- Hedge versus burn. All in on the GoST plan. Lowers threat density. Clunky.
Right now I have 5 flex slots after going down to 3 Selfless Spirit. I use 2 Herald, 1 Path, 1 SotG, and dork #5. I feel it could be improved, but also that the flex slots can really change the direction of the deck.
A an example- Goldfishing, The 4-3 Dork/Geist split gives 14% chance of a turn 2 Geist on the play. The 6-4 split gives 24% chance on the play or 28% on the draw. CoCo is made much worse though as 3 potential threats are now dorks or legend ruled.
Thoughts? Any interesting flex-slot packages you run successfully? Random value cards like scavenging ooze kitchen finks voice of resurgence aven mindcensor or vendilion clique?
Removal heavy midrange decks are kind of what this deck does well against. Every single creature in the deck, with the exception of Nebelgast Herald, interacts with removal in some way or is GoST and hexproof himself. If you find it to still be a problem, perhaps running some mix of 4 Geist + 2 Steel of the Godhead, + 1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, or + 2 phantasmal image for captain locks should make the deck more tight to 1-for-1 strategies. Keep in mind shapers' sanctuary is only a decent card if it draws you 2 or more cards. Spirits exist because they often act as 1-for-1 or better on their own.
On paper Cast Out looks unplayable in modern, but so does Nebelgast Herald, the best line of defense against aggro and big mana creature decks. Consider it a cantrip first and a great top deck late game second. I bet you'll be pleasantly surprised at how it plays in real life.
1x Adarkar Wastes
4x Flooded Strand
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Marsh Flats
2x Moorland Haunt
2x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
3x Selfless Spirit
4x Spell Queller
4x Rattlechains
4x Phantasmal Image
4x Mausoleum Wanderer
4x Nebelgast Herald
4x Drogskol Captain
Non-Creatures
4x Aether Vial
3x Cast Out
4x Path to Exile
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Fragmentize
2x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Rest in Peace
3x Stony Silence
3x Wrath of God