The list seems clean, similar to the list that Top 8'd GP Birmingham.
I haven't watched the streams yet, the only card I'm second guessing is Blessed Alliance - is it in for Burn? Death's Shadow?
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Sep 11, 2017Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from Xanis »
Does this deck make sense and is sufficiently aggressive? Does sideboard help address the weaknesses of this deck?
It makes sense as a white weenie aggro Humans deck. When I played a similar list, your main weaknesses are board wipes/sweepers, running out of cards and pushing through the last 2/3 points of damage at the end of a match. Your sideboard will also depend on how common decks like Affinity and Dredge are for you, and whether you'll need the appropriate hate in Stony Silence and Rest in Peace.
Selfless Spirit helps with the first problem, I also think you should be running 4 Brave the Elements main deck, it lets you steal games by getting past blockers and protects your board at key times. Auriok Champion is similar to Kor Firewalker.
For card draw, you have standard all-star Thraben Inspector for games where you might have to go longer. I also ran a mono-white Human Soldiers build with Mentor of the Meek for card draw. Your only non-soldier cards are Student of Warfare and Gather the Townsfolk, and you can run things like Field Marshal, Precinct Captain, Mentor and Veteran Armorsmith in a soliders build.
As for reach to close out a game, there aren't great options in white compared to say Red's direct damage and haste. One option is evasion, so cards like Gryff's Boon for recursive flying evasion can help. Otherwise maybe something you can flash in end of turn like an Aven Mindcensor to steal the last few points.
As a side point, a copy of Eiganjo Castle is free in this deck, and can protect Kytheon and Thalia in the right situation
I've got also a few questions:
- Can I level up Student of Warfare the same turn it's casted on the battlefield if I have enough mana?
Yes, but at sorcery speed (so you cannot do it in response to a removal spell for example)
- Does Gideon, Battle-Forged get +1/+1 from Honor of the Pure if he's a creature until end of turn?
Yes, and if you make him a Human before you play a Thalia's Lieutenant, he will get a +1/+1 counter too
- Does Elspeth's first ability trigger Champ and Thalia's lieutenant ETB effect? I don't think so, but I prefer to make sure about it.
No, the creature type on the token is Soldier, but it will get a buff from Honor of the Pure as it is white
- Do tokens from Gather the Townsfolk get +1/+1 from Metallic Mimic (as a human type) and Honor of the Pure?
Yes and Yes
Sep 6, 2017I think as others have pointed out it will boil down to how good being able to disrupt artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers is over just instants and sorceries, and how important the temporary removal is versus exiling it (a definite difference versus Storm and Snapcaster Mage decks).Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
The actual creature is less easy to evaluate, 1/2 with flying for 2 mana versus a 2/1 for 3 mana. The evasion is definitely needed if you reasonably expect to attack with the Freebooter without your opponent getting their card back, which ties into a discussion I had with kingcars a while back on this forum about cards such as Reflector Mage and Sin Collector that have ETB effects - if they resolve, then you've gained your advantage, and you are left with a relevant creature type that is helpful to you, but is annoying for your opponent as removing it doesn't gain back the card from Sin Collector or let them instantly replay a bounced creature with Reflector Mage.
If there is lots of removal then cards like Freebooter seem worse, but they do then force your opponent to spend removal on an otherwise underpowered creature to get their card back, which may buy you enough time to get the win or grow your board out of Anger of the Gods range for example, but this again depends on whether your deck needs to remove instants and sorceries to win, or whether artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers are worth the (potential) temporary nature of the disruption. First thoughts are that Tron is a matchup where the broader range of targets is helpful to grab O Stone, Planeswalkers and maybe an early Expedition Map.
As GRP17 said, it's good to have more choices rather than fewer!
Aug 31, 2017The fact that it is a two turn process puts me off as a graveyard answer, as it will need to survive a turn unless you hit it off a CoCo. Against Dredge, Death's Shadow and Storm sometimes two cards isn't enough to fully disrupt them, I like the panic option of a RiP or Relic to shut down those decks. Definitely more synergy/utility than the other options though.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Aug 29, 2017Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from Wesste »
- Need more lifegain main deck. +2 auriok champion -2 Mayor
- Felt I needed more interaction/utility pieces.... maybe Fiend hunter? Any other suggestions?
- Manabase is very greedy (especially with Bob)... Any suggestions?
- Anyone got any thoughts on how to slow down the big mana decks? More Thalia's and ghost quarters?
- CoCo is a great card, but would aether vial be better?
I know not many on the thread are going down the Abzan route, but I feel the deck has potential.... just needs a fair bit of tweaking!
I've tried Dark Confidant, and whilst it is a very powerful card, I feel he makes Burn a worse matchup, and it's not a good one to begin with, as your example shows. Having Sin Collector take one of their damage spells is sort of life gain/damage prevention, and I run 2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation in my sideboard mainly for Storm/non-creature decks, but I bring him in against burn too as he provides a wall for their creatures, forcing them to bolt him, which is "gain 5 life".
Reflector Mage is the interaction card of choice, guess Fiend Hunter/Banisher Priest is your non-Blue alternative.
I agree your manabase seems ambitious, most lists run 21 lands. Simple answer would be to add 3 more Caverns, and a basic Plains. Budget wise, you could go for Razorverge Thicket or Concealed Courtyard instead of the Caverns - I only run 2 in my Knightfall Humans with 8 fetches.
Again, Blue has the easiest answers – Negate and Unified Will – for big decks. In black maybe Brutality or Thoughtseize?
I personally think CoCo is better, you can end up dumping most of your hand by Turn 4, so an instant speed chance to hit (most likely) 2 Humans to mess up combat maths or disrupt an opponent is better for me than playing extra things from your hand, as you’ve likely played most of them already.
As Headminerve said, your list seems less explosive than other Humans lists, which increases your need for disruption. You need 4 extra lands, so I'd cut the Bobs and the Recruiter - maybe try a Tireless Tracker or two for card draw with all your fetchlands? I'd look for a way to move the Sin Collectors main board to give you some more hand disruption you can hit off CoCo. Anafenza is a good clock, a second copy might be a good idea. I'd find space for a Kambal or two somewhere in my 75 too.
FInal thought that I'm still trying to think through for my own deck - is Knight of the Reliquary better than Mirran Crusader in this list? Knight can grow big with the right lands, but pumping a Crusader is a very quick clock if they can't answer it. You're also not running blue for the Reatreat Combo or Red for Kessig Wolf Run, which are good reasons to be running Knight.
Aug 25, 2017Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from Manturras »Hi all!
Long time follower of this fine primer, first time poster.
Currently playing bant humans, and testing 2x Auriok Champion. Been loving that card in my SB, replaced over 2x crusaders, but seems like that card is nowhere to be seen in other lists. Has anyone give it a go? Burn and shadow decks have a lot of trouble against it. Also, crusader, might jump back in case of a rise of GBx decks
For me, Auriok Champion is a sort-of answer to burn and presents a problem to black/red/x decks. Personally it's a case of being not quite good enough to bring in for burn matchups over other cards with an instant impact - other people have mentioned Arashin Cleric as an alternative - as they tend to run Path to Exile anyway. Against Death's Shadow I prefer Crusader, it's a better clock , but both give the opponent a massive headache.
There's no reason to not play it if you expect a lot of burn/death's shadow, but there's not much in my local meta, so I can afford to run Sin Collector and Kambal as sort of answers alongside the Thalias for disruption against Burn, and go grindy with Eternal Witness/RiP against Death's Shadow.
Aug 24, 2017Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from EpicEmpiricism »
In terms of your list, how has running 8 mana dorks and fewer two drops felt?
Thoughts on Eternal Witness?
It's also probably difficult to quantify, but have you noticed anything moving from 21 to 22 lands?
Thanks for the replies, some interesting thoughts. Definitely think the 2 drop problem is one that does impact the Humans list, with the exception of maybe Bant Red, which seems to have the most promising alternatives.
Agree that 3CMC Thalia is best Turn 2, but I find that she really helps to put us on the front foot against creature decks and most modern landbases, although she does paint a large target on her head, and if she is answered efficiently then you're right - she doesn't do anything.
I think I heard about the tournament on an SCG stream maybe? I'm glad the tournament is doing well.
Aug 21, 2017Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from BartHenryksson »Hey Humans!
Yeah, the lack of Noble Hierarch and Cavern of Souls. I know the cards are crazy good but i am to stingy to pay so much for 7 cards. I convinced myself to buy a Cavern of Souls each month. Maybe I will do the same with the Noble Hierarch. I replace them for now with Birds of Paradise. I like the colorfixing a lot wich allows to play either Reflector Mage or Anafenza, the Foremost. What else should I change in the Main?
Agreed, they are great cards but expensive. I still need to buy my last two Caverns instead of borrowing them. Hierarch is just a great card unfortunately, Pilgrim is a necessary in the lists but not nearly as good.
Now some questions:
In some situations I don't know if it is better to play Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or a 3-Drop (mostly Anafenza, the Foremost). What do you recommend? I am aware that it's always situationally but maybe there is a norm.
Depends on the matchup and if you have a Collected Company you are hoping to cast turn 3. If you have a hand of creatures then an early Thalia, especially game 1 if you don't know what are playing is probably better to try and trip them up. If they are playing red then Anafenza is great as they will find her hard to remove. Turn 2 Reflector Mage on their mana creature is a very strong play.
What do you think about Meddling Mage? I am not sure with this card. In wich match-ups is it good and what cards i want to name?
I name combo pieces - Living End, Ad Nauseum, Ironworks. It's a narrow card that is great for some metas, and poor in others.
Sin Collector? If yes, how many in the main? Or in the board? In my testing it was one of the worst cards...
Yes for me, but 2 in the sideboard currently. I had it in my main board over Eternal Witness for GP Birmingham, mainly to try and get extra information about my opponents game 1. Some matches it is worth the mainboard inclusion, especially the 'unfair' combo type decks, but versus creature decks you might miss.
Is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben that good? Don't get me wrong... I love this card! Sometime she hits super hard but sometimes she does nothing.
She is not a guaranteed include on the lists here, but I run 2. She can mess up your small amount of spells, but tends to restrict our opponents more I find. Again, maybe dependent on the decks you run into - the more non-creature spells played the better she is. Definitely Bant Black's weakness is a lack of a good 2 drop and evasion compared to Kari Zev, Harsh Mentor, Mantis Rider etc.
What is your opinion on the Mana Dorks? I saw lists running 6 other 8. Would you run 4x Avacyn's Pilgrim and 2x Birds of Paradise in favor of two more 3-Drops? If so, wich 3-Drops? Please let me know.
I run 7 - 4 Hierarch and 3 Pilgrim. I'm currently trying 11 1CMC creatures, 10 2CMC and 10 3CMC creatures to have a smoother curve, as I find sometimes that having fewer 2 drops can make your curve out awkward if they remove your mana dork.
What do you think on "Naya"? I saw this girl playing Naya at the GP in Birmingham. She played Magus of the Moon over Reflector Mage to mess with the opponents manabase. Also another sideboard plan. Is an aggro build like the Blitz version viable in the current meta (with some major tweaks of course)?
I don't run red in my list, other people here do and the lists look interesting. Reflector Mage is very strong right now though, so I wouldn't want to cut that unless I had good reason.
Aug 21, 2017Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from EpicEmpiricism »
Overall, my initial take on this list is that it feels more powerful and harder to beat than any of the other humans lists I have sleeved up, enough so that I am planning on tuning this for a SCG Modern Classic next month.
Thanks for the post, I'm looking to take my Bant Black list and try the Knightfall package.
In terms of your list, how has running 8 mana dorks and fewer two drops felt? I'm always wary of having to make the jump from one to three mana in the face of removal, but I think most Humans lists suffer from too many options at 3CMC and not enough at 2. Thalia is the card that comes up in these discussions, as she can mess up our CoCos, which is frustrating, but in my limited experience our opponent is less happy to see her. I can see why you would take her out, but I'd be interested as to how you find your curve.
Thoughts on Eternal Witness? I agree that she is useful, and in my view better than Rallier in your list as CoCo and the 3 drops are what you probably want back most of the time rather than Lieutenant, which she can get anyway. Wondering how 3 copies has worked for you as statswise she doesn't offer much in terms of damage, so you rely a bit more on Knight to do the heavy lifting. Thalia, Heretic Cathar has always put in work for me.
It's also probably difficult to quantify, but have you noticed anything moving from 21 to 22 lands?
Interesting sideboard too, I agree hard counters like Negate are what I think the deck needs against our bad matchups to stop a combo or removal piece. I like the idea of being flexible with the two copies of Retreat, as I've been playing with two in main, but have also boarded them out for aggressive matches.
Aug 18, 2017Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from Wesste »Although not Knightfall, I experimented with a Devoted Vizier Human (Naya) build a few months back (if you were interested, scroll back a few pages in this thread) I had mixed success, but being able to constantly threaten a infinite mana combo was pretty good. It also meant that my Champions didn't see as much spot removal because this was reserved for devoted druid. This also applied to knight of the reliquary which gave me a really good beater.
The list that I was developing definitely needed some work (I.e. Dropping lightning mauler etc) but I liked the overall concept.
Would be interested to hear how you get on with the Human Knightfall list. I'm working on an Abzan Human list so will feedback results when I get to test it
Will do. Early thoughts seem to be that it retains a lot of the Bant Humans style, but is slanted more towards an aggressive turning sideways plan rather than the disruption of Bant Black, but in the main deck it's not a major difference. I was running Mirran Crusader main, so you get plus points against certain decks there, but having a Knight of the Reliquary enter as a 4/4 oftentimes is helpful to avoid Bolt. Plus once you have a Knight or two out you can threaten a Kessig Wolf Run end of turn to trample over any blocker.
Although having to learn how the Retreat combo sequencing works is a bit of a headache for me starting out.
Aug 16, 2017Agree with the thoughts here. Humans seems to be Green and White, with Blue a natural third colour due to Noble Hierarch and the current strength of Reflector Mage. Black for disruption/grind, red for aggression/evasion.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
I was browsing the GP Birmingham lists after seeing 4 Colour Humans made it onto camera for Round 5, and then noticed that someone Top 8'd with Bant Human Knightfall. Any thoughts on adding the Knightfall package to a humans deck? Seems like an option to me, you lose black's grind/disruption and red's damage/evasion (although you could maybe up the red mana and go 4 colour?), but you do get a Human that can be a 4/4 on turn 2, as well as an 'oops I win' combo, which could allow you to steal some games, as well as a searchable source of trample late game.
List here: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gpbir17/first-days-9-0-decks-grand-prix-birmingham-2017-08-13
My Starting List based on the above link
Kari Zev is a sort of placeholder in the deck, I don't know if the manabase as it stands is reliable enough for her turn 2, as it has a high fetch count, but fetching for red/white turn 2 might mess up future turns where we need green/blue. Skyship Plunderer or Jhessian Infiltrator maybe, or the 4th Path from the sideboard?
Given that losing black removes the disruptive elements that colour brings, I think you're looking to just smash face as a plan B, with Reflector Mage and 3 Mana Thalia messing up your opponent's blockers and givnig you big tempo swings. You could easily drop the Retreats and 2 Knights for the Mirran Crusaders and Eternal Witnesses if you expect a lot of hate in games 2 and 3 and just focus on the beatdown.
This might belong over on the Knightfall thread, but given that this is a Humans list at heart that splashes a combo, I've put it here. Thoughts?
Aug 15, 2017Posted in: Aggro & TempoQuote from headminerve »[quote]
Your impressions are accurate, SavageGaul and Kingcars brought trustful advice.
I would add the 2-drop slot is also a matter of meta at this point. Most options players propose here (along with a great personal feedback) are playable and can make the cut. So either a bomb is printed and everybody will play 4 copies (2-3 for a Legend), or each meta we expect will drive our choices.
Burn consistency is its numero uno strength in the format. While Humans need to draw good SB cards, Burn players just have to draw average. Path in the opening hand is the best start to have. If you deal with their only beater, then you don't have to play creatures in curve, so you can fetch tapped lands and curve your creatures one turn late.
The one card that may break them in half is Leyline of Sanctity, all the other cards just help but don't steal the game on their own. Auriok Champion on T2 is probably the best play you can make, as it's a X-for-1 they can't compensate easily: it blocks their first attacker, punishes them for playing creatures, and can't prevent all the lifegain since there's more creatures than Skullcrack effects in the game.
Valakut isn't a bad MU if your deck is built to fight combo decks. Kambal is over-estimated, so even though it seems to fight combos well, it doesn't combat them all equally well. Counterspells do. Collective Brutality would be a fine option for Burn, creatureless combos and control. The obvious and brainless human/creature options aren't necessarily the better SB options, which leads back to my comment about Disenchant...
Some interesting points here, which I agree with. The two drop slot could do with a standout card alongside the pump and Thalia options.
Auriok Champion is on my radar as an anti-red card. As you said, Burn just needs an average draw and they feel like they are favoured, they definitely punish weak or slow keeps. She's not quite Ondu Cleric for Allies, but might be worth a try for red matchups.
I think you might be right, for Valakut countermagic is the answer. Kambal, Sin Collector and Negate/Mana Leak/Unified Will should be enough disruption to slow them down.
As for Disenchant, it's a great single card answer, albeit one that does not come attached to a creature. Meta call I guess if you really need single target removal over broader artifact hate like Stony and Kataki, and narrower options like Qasali, Rec Sage, War Priest and Renegades don't fit your deck.
Aug 14, 2017Thanks everyone for the feedback and discussion. Definitely lots to think about and try!Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Agree that my curve was a little off, which probably led to some weak keeps. I think that a strong 2-drop could make a big difference, maybe a pirate from Ixalan will help this slot? I do like the idea of Skyship Plunderer, I had a WU Humans deck in standard which I was trialling when Marvel was legal, and Plunderer was an good card there.
Some good points made about evasion, which Bant Black lacks. I'll try Silverblade Paladin, but might need to try something else to get the damage through. My trawl through Gatherer threw up some weird and wonderful humans - Captain of the Mists, Bant Battlemage and Skinshifter, which offer evasion for mana. Maulfist Revolutionary is certainly strong in standard WG Humans, and trample is helpful.
Also Jhessian Infiltrator is all about evasion.
Aug 14, 2017I attended GP Birmingham last weekend – my first GP – and ended up going 5-4 with Bant Black Humans, losing Round 9 for my chance to make Day 2. I learnt a lot about playing Modern in general, and made some bad decisions that I’ll learn from (City of Brass is not an okay 1 land keep against Burn!). I think it was really helpful to play the deck in a big tournament, to get a feel of how the deck plays out and which cards you want to see and which you’re not as keen on.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
• The Humans deck can be “fast”, which was a comment several of my opponents made. In some games having the Champion, Mana dork, Lieutenant, Mayor, 3 land opening hand felt pretty unbeatable on the play.
• The Humans deck can also disrupt and stall. I played Grixis Death’s Shadow Round 8, and fought through Kolaghan’s Command, Fatal Push, Thoughtseize, both three drop Lili’s, Gurmag Angler and Death’s Shadows. Even with all of this, I was able to keep the pressure up with Reflector Mages bouncing things, making big threats, and then landing Mirran Crusader, which is the trump card. A high creature count definitely helps to keep topdecking something to put on the board until you hit a Collected Company.
• Thalia and Thalia are great. Thalia Guardian of Thraben is sometimes a pain for us, but I feel she definitely messes up things for our opponents more often than for us. They really slow our opponent down, and help us press home a quick start and keep the pressure on.
Matchups I’d like thoughts/help on
This feels like a terrible matchup. I was 1-2 against it, but my win came from my opponent having 8-9 ands and no payoff in either game. The other two games I couldn’t do anything, they just gathered their lands, played a Sakura Tribe Elder and then boom 18 damage pointed at my head (you’re almost certainly taking 2 damage from lands in this deck every game, and usually more). As Canuckistan1 posted, I’m in need of ideas for this matchup. Specific hate through a Meddling Mage is no good as they have so many ways to ramp (Khalni Heart, Sakura Tribe, Hour of Promise, Scapeshift, Primetime, Farseek, Search for Tomorrow), and you probably need to save the hate for Anger of the Gods. I can’t see a creature that fits what we need, Kambal and Sin Collector are helpful along with the Thalia’s, but it just doesn’t feel enough. Do we have to go for a non-creature spell like Negate or Unified Will to give us the catch-all answer we need in this matchup, or a Repel the Abominable or two?
With our land base I think we help them quite a bit, and we need a quick start to keep up. My opponent played the match well I thought as he went after my creatures early to stop me developing any kind of threat, and then went after my face in the later turns. He also had mainboard Searing Blood which did good work against me. I didn’t bring much in the sideboard for Burn – Kambal was my hope, but I didn’t see him. I know people have talked about life-gaining Humans on here as a sideboard option, maybe something in that as our mana base typically leaves us at 18 if not 15 some games. What do people bring in for Burn?
The other matchups I had felt okay.
• Affinity is a race, being on the play is huge to develop a board or get disruption down before they dump their hand.
• UR Tron was interesting, but felt too slow against us if they don’t Tron – I got caught out with Kozilek’s Return as I wasn’t familiar with the matchup, and Ugin is game over, but it seemed to take a while to get itself setup, which we can take advantage of.
• Dredge was fine, lose game 1, bring in hate, and draw your disruptive creatures. Again, Thalia put in work here, making creatures enter tapped and then bouncing them back to my opponent’s hand with a Reflector Mage.
• Death’s Shadow is a grindfest, Rest in Peace did a lot of work, as did Eternal Witness bringing back a Thoughtseized 2mana Thalia to slow him down. Reflector Mage is great here too, and Mirran Crusader forces them to be running Bolt or a sweeper.
• The 2 drop slot is a bit of an issue for Bant Black. Red has some good choices here – Harsh Mentor, Kari Zev, Voltaic Brawler all have merit, and I’d consider any of them if they were Bant colours. Of the available options, Dark Confidant interests me because card draw is fantastic, but my main concern is that he is black, which is our 4th colour (mainly due to Noble Hierarch not tapping for black), which could be awkward if we want him out turn 2. Anyone have any spicy tech at 2CMC? On my shortlist are Grand Abolisher, Knight of the Holy Nimbus and Skyship Plunderer.
• Some draws can feel a little awkward as our curve takes a dip at 2CMC. The hands where you have a mana dork, 2 lands and three drops feel awful if they have removal for your dork. Not sure what the answer is here, I think it’s a result of the colours and deck. Functional reprint of Thalia’s Lieutenant in Ixalan would be nice!
• Mayor of Avabruck. I guess he kind of sums up the previous two points. I feel for some people he is just in as the 59th and 60th cards because he is a two drop and offers an anthem. I do like him, and played three in my list. He is pretty bad on his own, but also won me several games due to his extra pump.
• Changes to mainboard – I want to try something more aggressive. Until someone finds a good idea for Valakut/Scapeshift I think the best way forward is to get under some of these problematic decks, and as Kingcars said be more proactive. I’m going to go up to 4 Mayors, and add in a couple of Silverblade Paladins. Giving double strike to a big Champion or Lieutenant seems ideal for speeding up the clock, and 3 Mana Thalia and Anafenza are more than happy to have double strike. Drop an Avacyn’s Pilgrim and move the Mirran Crusaders to the side, as they are good against Death's Shadow and Dredge, but worse against other decks that don't run heavy green or black.
Ramble over, I’ll try and tidy this up later.
Also - thoughts on 3 or 4 Path to Exile main deck? I think we want the 4 copies in the 75, but is a good idea to put the 4th in the sideboard so we have another slot for control/non-interactive matchups?
Aug 9, 2017Maybe something weird with lands in Naya CoCo, borrowing ideas from the GW Company lists with both Thalias, Magus of the Moon, Ghost Quarter, Knight of the Reliquary, Tracker, Eternal Witness, Renegade Rallier.Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
Magus of the Moon is a little bit of a problem for a 3 colour deck as you could turn off your own lands, but the rest of the cards above give you a recursive land tax effect with Witness and Rallier to bring your Ghost Quarters back, then using Trackers and Knights to take advantage of land drops and fetches. Maybe a few Harsh Mentors to add some more ability hate. Probably too many 3 drops in my list, but an interesting idea!
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