Some replies (unquoted, because I am too lazy) and loose thoughts:
Right at the moment 5c Humans including Aether Vial is supposedly the strongest variant of 5c Humans and I don't see how Collected Company will be able to keep pace with fixing mana, instant speed tricks for zero mana and bringing creatures into play that cannot be countered. But I might be wrong.
Including a four drop in our deck is not a good idea to my mind. As we only play 18 lands, with 4 of them basically used as a draw engine, we will rarely have enough mana to cast it. Some players include Hostage Taker, a while ago people expecting to play the mirror included Riders of Gavony. But at the moment there is no equivalent for BBE or JtMS in the human tribe.
Quite recently people thought about including more one drops in 5c Humans to increase synergy with Kessig Malcontents. Most common was Thraben Inspector but I prefer Sage of Epityr (until Lantern comes around to laugh at the card choice). I additionally find the idea of a single Kytheon, Hero of Akros appealing but wonder how often we will be able to flip him.
Does anyone include Chalice of the Void as a one or two of in the sideboard to be played turn two in order to make life harder for all those 1 cmc spell casters?
Yes I do run Chalice of the Void and have upped to two copies in the sideboard recently. I face a lot of Grixis and Jeskai control decks and chalice on one is absolutely vital for especially Grixis for several reasons. 1) It stops 1cmc removal and disruption, 2) It gets picked by hand disruption before any of our threats, 3) It deflects Kolaghan's Command from Vial, or at least causes confusion. That card is straight up busted vs our deck.
It has another upside vs decks that use free spells (when on the play) against affinity and living end type decks.
To me the card is very important and with Jace coming back, I expect a lot more of these decks.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is truely awesome. Gains an extra turn usually against the same decks where Chalice shines, pushing trough more damage and draw more cards/disruption.
No, the mana currently available in standard does not allow to play double mana cards of three colors consistently on turn 3 and 4. So one of them has to stay a splash color. In this case Green.
One can argue if dropping the green alltogether (Like Dev from SBMTG, for instance) is the way to go. But Deathgorge Scavenger is too important imho. I would never drop Vraska's Cobtempt in favour of Jadelight Ranger I feel the snek deck is a way better home for that card anyway.
I've been on Bushwhacker Zoo amongst others including Humans for about a year and have had some nice success on FNM level with my list. Never been a fan of Collected Company in Zoo, but now with Bloodbraid Elf unbanned i'm going to try something differen. I'd like to share a deck idea and have your opinion on this.
The deck is a rough sketch, but it's trying to abuse the ETB trigger of Renegade Rallier as much as possible. In conjunction with Bloodbraid Elf it can get bonkers fast.
Things I consider:
I have been going back and fort between the Grixis lists and This and have come to the conclusion that this deck is better suited against the decks I ususally face. This is by no means hard science, bus as stated before, it's really about The Scarab God. To me, you play either with it, or against it.
The one card that makes the deck tick is, and always has been, Deathgorge Scavenger. This swedish army knife of a creature is good against: GPG, The Scarab God, Rekindling Phoenix, Torrential Gearhulk, Scrapheap Scrounger, Anything Aggro etc. etc. etc.
How do you think the unbannings effect Humans? I realize that's a broad question, but will it change the meta enough that pushes humans out? I hope not.
Jund will make a comeback HARD, and that matchup is a nightmare.
I don't know if Jace will impact the meta a lot, I only have Grixis and Jeskai control in my meta. I'm up in Chalices for now
The unbanning of Bloodbraid Elf has sparked a discussion between a friend and me. To be fair, we don't know the exact answer.
The question is: Is it possible to respond to the casting of the cascaded spell with Ulamog's Nullifier and use the exiled spells (if any) to use for it's ETB ability?
We're on both ends of the spectrum, but both are not quite sure how exactly this works out.
On strategy red cards to splash for are Harnessed Lightning as a potential 4dmg removalspell and Rigging Runner as a potential 3/3 first strike for one red mana.
There are some more cards from kaladesh block which could work.
I'm no fan of Angrath but Glorybringer is great. Though hard on the manabase (as is). Been working to make Jund (centered around red) work and a third double cmc color is though and slows the deck down considerably.
Grixis suffers the same problem but allows for more stalling. The snek deck is not in it to stall imho.
I've been trying Grixis as another possible shell for the phoenix. It's good too but probably has a little worse aggro matchup.
To me it boils down to: To Scarab God or not to Scarab God.
I have a slight preference to Jund because of Deathgorge Scavenger. You seem to commit more to the green cards than I do.
I'll post my list later on. It's far from solved, that's for sure.
Great to see the start of a primer. Whilst looking for a shell to play Rekindling Phoenix i've been testing with a Grixis Energy deck as a soup of my new Jund Midrange and my ex Sultai Energy decks. Just taking the best cards from both seems like a good idea.
I'm not sure what I like better yet but i'll sure be following this thread too.
Lantern is though, but winnable. They also need good draws to completely lock you. Imho the best card to add from the sideboard is my long loved Harsh Mentor alongside Noble Hierarch, Dark Confidant and our disruption.
Drop the Thalia's Lieutenants.
Offcourse, you must be able to cast them, which can be a matter of luck.
The double green is hard for this deck when playing Vraska's Contempt. Trading versatility for consistensy imho is not a good idea. Also. Deathgorge Scavenger to me is MVP and the inclusion of the playset is non negotiable. It's part of the core.
I've played a 3 round tournament last wednesday and went 2-1, only losing to Rakdos aggro, due to bad descisions in the last round. Should have played Deathgorge Scavenger and removal instead of Rekindling Phoenix for blocks. This move, and this move alone lost me the match. This also brings me to another important point regarding role-play.
The ex-ram-red variants puah trough damage by making your creatures unable to block. Here, Pia Nalaar is preferable to any other two or three drop. Gaining you that one turn you need to stabilize.
The wins were versus Grixis Pirates and Esper God. Nothing noteworthy to tell except Vraska, Relic Seeker is an absolute bomb and my Rekindling Phoenix got Lost Legacy'd after sideboarding without ever playing it, which was surprising and proof of how powerfull amd fearsome this card is. The deck is allready associated with it. Love that t.b.h. I felt a sence of pride due to that move.
Afterwards I figured my removal suite needs some more focus. I left home with a few one offs and a single copy of Moment of Craving, For the aggro matchup, this should be two or even three. Cut / Ribbons should be up for some extra reach. Greeat with Vraska's ultimate too. I'm working on this.
I know one thing for sure. I want to play at instant speed for the first few turns, Dire Fleet Poisoner looks more and more appealing. Also bypasses the unable to block triggers of ex-ram-red creatures. I agree Kitesail Freebooter is better as a sideboard card in the upcomming, more creature centered meta. Approach from the Second Sun is still a thing though. It shuts down a great part of our deck, so dedicating some sidboard slots to that matchup seems like a good idea.
I think highly of the explore mechanic and love the explore creatures in my GB snek build. Ixalli's Diviner can be a great addition as a 4 thoughness creature is hard to go over and the filtering surely can come in handy when digging for an answer or lands.
Also, but i'm not sure on this one, Does explore allow to lower our landcount?????
What does everybody think of Walking Ballista? In my playtesting I feel like i'm often times keeping it in hand in favour of other stuff untill I can get it down for 4 mana minimum and even then, it's only blocking once and pinging one dude. I feel like this might not be the deck for it. Though, when it's good, it's great.
I don't think turn two ramp is what we want or need. As said above, we can't race aggro. This is very true so imho we have to control the early turns. The best line thusfar for me has been: T1 mountain or canyon slough, T2 Untapped dual land, destroy their two drop on their turn with any of our removal spells, T3 Scavenger, eat the creature, +2 life, T4 attack for 4 by eating the removal spell. Then Drop the bomb.
Follow up with more removal or Glorybringer. Usually, that's game.
If that's no option, you just got to stall and draw into your finishers. Freebooter and Pia make attacking early possible to trigger raid (always drop Ruin Raider 2nd mainphase). Raider has given me more value than trouble, if any. I flipped a Glorybringer once. Ouch, but I was still at 19 life so no biggy. T.b.h. I have finished a lot of games on 20 or more life, Just keep the board clean.
With this meta shift and ppl cutting on Freebooters, what about going back to Mayors and play more aggressively? We would have 12 lords (8 lords + 4 Images) and we could have 1~2 Malcontents for reach. With this many lords, we can apply lots of pressure early and finish the game with Malcontents. It could also help to outgrow damage based removal on our creatures if you have a draw with lots of lords/images.
What is "this" meta shift you are talking about? Care to elborate?
Jund lists are popping up everywhere. I have a feeling it's only a matter of time for competitive results start showing.
Currently i'm on an awesome streak, with only two losses in easilly 20+ games over the last week. Both where mirror matches, which is telling a lot. The version I was up against included Scrapheap Scrounger and Rhonas the Indomitable. This version is definately more aggressive! Scrapheap Scrounger is, like I suspected a perfect fit for the deck, as it is recursive value. Rhonas, i'm still not conviced on.
Amongst the wins where a plethora of pirates decks, Grixis, Rakdos, UB, several merfolk lists, Vampires, some of the SBMTG brews where amongst them, including the curiosity deck. Also played against Rx aggro, GPG, Esper God and Mardu vehicles. Those are though matches but my list is somewhat tuned to beat those consistently.
I have a great feeling about the deck and its potential and start to see great lines. Some games I can truely control the opponents board and just calmly swing for the finish.
I discovered the power of Vraska, Relic Seeker and fits perfectly in the deck, currently trying out one main.
I want to make room for an extra copy of Cut // Ribbons but don't know what to cut.
I'm really liking Ruin Raider and thinking about upping to three copies, shaving a copy of [card]Pia Nalaar
[/card].
Tommorow I'll attend a tournament to see how I fare.
Yes I do run Chalice of the Void and have upped to two copies in the sideboard recently. I face a lot of Grixis and Jeskai control decks and chalice on one is absolutely vital for especially Grixis for several reasons. 1) It stops 1cmc removal and disruption, 2) It gets picked by hand disruption before any of our threats, 3) It deflects Kolaghan's Command from Vial, or at least causes confusion. That card is straight up busted vs our deck.
It has another upside vs decks that use free spells (when on the play) against affinity and living end type decks.
To me the card is very important and with Jace coming back, I expect a lot more of these decks.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is truely awesome. Gains an extra turn usually against the same decks where Chalice shines, pushing trough more damage and draw more cards/disruption.
One can argue if dropping the green alltogether (Like Dev from SBMTG, for instance) is the way to go. But Deathgorge Scavenger is too important imho. I would never drop Vraska's Cobtempt in favour of Jadelight Ranger I feel the snek deck is a way better home for that card anyway.
Hope i'm not the only one left who has faith!
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Renegade Rallier
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
3 Seal of Fire
3 Lightning Helix
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Path to Exile
2 Stony Silence
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Kor Firewalker
1 Destructive Revelry
The deck is a rough sketch, but it's trying to abuse the ETB trigger of Renegade Rallier as much as possible. In conjunction with Bloodbraid Elf it can get bonkers fast.
Things I consider:
Feel free to comment guys!
I have been going back and fort between the Grixis lists and This and have come to the conclusion that this deck is better suited against the decks I ususally face. This is by no means hard science, bus as stated before, it's really about The Scarab God. To me, you play either with it, or against it.
The one card that makes the deck tick is, and always has been, Deathgorge Scavenger. This swedish army knife of a creature is good against: GPG, The Scarab God, Rekindling Phoenix, Torrential Gearhulk, Scrapheap Scrounger, Anything Aggro etc. etc. etc.
Currently i'm playing the following list:
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Sheltered Thicket
4 Canyon Slough
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Rootbound Crag
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Kitesail Freebooter
4 Deathgorge Scavenger
3 Pia Nalaar
2 Ruin Raider
4 Rekindling Phoenix
3 Glorybringer
3 Magma Spray
4 Abrade
2 Moment of Craving
2 Cut // Ribbons
2 Vraska's Contempt
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Duress
2 Chandra's Defeat
2 Naturalize
3 Dire Fleet Poisoner
1 Sweltering Suns
1 Lost Legacy
1 Vraska's Contempt
1 Vraska, Relic Seeker
Jund will make a comeback HARD, and that matchup is a nightmare.
I don't know if Jace will impact the meta a lot, I only have Grixis and Jeskai control in my meta. I'm up in Chalices for now
The question is: Is it possible to respond to the casting of the cascaded spell with Ulamog's Nullifier and use the exiled spells (if any) to use for it's ETB ability?
We're on both ends of the spectrum, but both are not quite sure how exactly this works out.
Thanks in advance guys
There are some more cards from kaladesh block which could work.
I'm no fan of Angrath but Glorybringer is great. Though hard on the manabase (as is). Been working to make Jund (centered around red) work and a third double cmc color is though and slows the deck down considerably.
Grixis suffers the same problem but allows for more stalling. The snek deck is not in it to stall imho.
To me it boils down to: To Scarab God or not to Scarab God.
I have a slight preference to Jund because of Deathgorge Scavenger. You seem to commit more to the green cards than I do.
I'll post my list later on. It's far from solved, that's for sure.
I'm not sure what I like better yet but i'll sure be following this thread too.
Drop the Thalia's Lieutenants.
Offcourse, you must be able to cast them, which can be a matter of luck.
I've played a 3 round tournament last wednesday and went 2-1, only losing to Rakdos aggro, due to bad descisions in the last round. Should have played Deathgorge Scavenger and removal instead of Rekindling Phoenix for blocks. This move, and this move alone lost me the match. This also brings me to another important point regarding role-play.
The ex-ram-red variants puah trough damage by making your creatures unable to block. Here, Pia Nalaar is preferable to any other two or three drop. Gaining you that one turn you need to stabilize.
The wins were versus Grixis Pirates and Esper God. Nothing noteworthy to tell except Vraska, Relic Seeker is an absolute bomb and my Rekindling Phoenix got Lost Legacy'd after sideboarding without ever playing it, which was surprising and proof of how powerfull amd fearsome this card is. The deck is allready associated with it. Love that t.b.h. I felt a sence of pride due to that move.
Afterwards I figured my removal suite needs some more focus. I left home with a few one offs and a single copy of Moment of Craving, For the aggro matchup, this should be two or even three. Cut / Ribbons should be up for some extra reach. Greeat with Vraska's ultimate too. I'm working on this.
I know one thing for sure. I want to play at instant speed for the first few turns, Dire Fleet Poisoner looks more and more appealing. Also bypasses the unable to block triggers of ex-ram-red creatures. I agree Kitesail Freebooter is better as a sideboard card in the upcomming, more creature centered meta. Approach from the Second Sun is still a thing though. It shuts down a great part of our deck, so dedicating some sidboard slots to that matchup seems like a good idea.
Also, but i'm not sure on this one, Does explore allow to lower our landcount?????
What does everybody think of Walking Ballista? In my playtesting I feel like i'm often times keeping it in hand in favour of other stuff untill I can get it down for 4 mana minimum and even then, it's only blocking once and pinging one dude. I feel like this might not be the deck for it. Though, when it's good, it's great.
Follow up with more removal or Glorybringer. Usually, that's game.
If that's no option, you just got to stall and draw into your finishers. Freebooter and Pia make attacking early possible to trigger raid (always drop Ruin Raider 2nd mainphase). Raider has given me more value than trouble, if any. I flipped a Glorybringer once. Ouch, but I was still at 19 life so no biggy. T.b.h. I have finished a lot of games on 20 or more life, Just keep the board clean.
Imho this deck needs role players.
Also, a primer
What is "this" meta shift you are talking about? Care to elborate?
Currently i'm on an awesome streak, with only two losses in easilly 20+ games over the last week. Both where mirror matches, which is telling a lot. The version I was up against included Scrapheap Scrounger and Rhonas the Indomitable. This version is definately more aggressive! Scrapheap Scrounger is, like I suspected a perfect fit for the deck, as it is recursive value. Rhonas, i'm still not conviced on.
Amongst the wins where a plethora of pirates decks, Grixis, Rakdos, UB, several merfolk lists, Vampires, some of the SBMTG brews where amongst them, including the curiosity deck. Also played against Rx aggro, GPG, Esper God and Mardu vehicles. Those are though matches but my list is somewhat tuned to beat those consistently.
This is how the deck looks like as of this moment
3 Mountain
3 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Canyon Slough
4 Dragonskull Summit
4 Rootbound Crag
Creatures
3 Walking Ballista
3 Kitesail Freebooter
1 Dire Fleet Poisoner
3 Pia Nalaar
4 Deathgorge Scavenger
2 Ruin Raider
4 Rekindling Phoenix
2 Glorybringer
4 Fatal Push
2 Shock
1 Moment of Craving
2 Abrade
1 Cut // Ribbons
1 Sweltering Suns
2 Vrasta's Contempt
1 Vraska Relic Seeker
2 Chandra's Defeat
2 Sentinel Totem
3 Duress
1 Kitesail Freebooter
2 Abrade
2 Naturalize
2 Sweltering Suns
1 Vraska's Contempt
I have a great feeling about the deck and its potential and start to see great lines. Some games I can truely control the opponents board and just calmly swing for the finish.
I discovered the power of Vraska, Relic Seeker and fits perfectly in the deck, currently trying out one main.
I want to make room for an extra copy of Cut // Ribbons but don't know what to cut.
I'm really liking Ruin Raider and thinking about upping to three copies, shaving a copy of [card]Pia Nalaar
[/card].
Tommorow I'll attend a tournament to see how I fare.