I've been experimenting with a blue green build for a while. I love Coiling Oracle, and Dramatic Reversal can be quite good, but Beck//Call is just a worse version of glimpse of nature, and it's not even worth running in modern. I haven't really tried out Distant Melody, but it does seem awfully expensive and in most cases worse than lead the stampede. In any blue variant, the biggest issue you're going to run into is that the deck produces almost exclusively green mana, and while a ug build can pump out a gigantic amount of mana in a very short time and draw a lot of cards, its limited by the fact that it really can only ever get one or two blue mana per turn. I've had a lot of fun with my blue build, but I don't think there's much of a competitive future in it because I think elves' biggest competitive advantage is a sideboard toolkit that can deal with anything through chords and companies, and Abzan or GW has a much better ability to use a toolkit like that.
Sorry I'm late to this thread, but i want to point out that earlier, when we were talking about kiki jiki, splinter twin, and saheeli, those three cards aren't usually used together as the combo. Usually pestermite, deceiver exarch, restoration angelor felidar guardian are used in tandem with one or more of those combo pieces. Additionally, none of these combo pieces are useless alone. Kiki or felidar on their own can get an additional snapcaster mage or other etb effect. In reference to the Melira combo mentioned earlier, you said having other interchangeable pieces doesn't help, but you're very wrong about that. (I don't mean that to offend you personally, it's simply true that the more cards that do the same thing, the more reliable your deck is, and the more reliable your deck is, the more resilient it is to disruption.) The reason the vizier druid deck with the Melira combo is good in modern is because it has pieces that can be flexibly used in multiple combos, and it has a way, in chord of calling or collected company, to "oops" into multiple win cons. The same deck can also run the Knightfall combo if it wants, which makes it even more versatile, and most of the cards, at their worst, are decent midrange pieces. Similarly, the modern saheeli deck works because it has the backup plan of kiki, and all of its pieces are good on their own.
Infinite mana isn't bad, but it usually isn't worth building a deck around on its own. As a last example, elves can run druid vizier or cloudstone curio for a chance at infinite mana, which helps the elves deck because it can use that mana under any circumstance to go through their deck or fetch an instant win con (either bounce an elvish visionary with curio or chord for an ezuri with druid vizier for infinite pump), but either of the combos on their own aren't good.
I put them in the sideboard and used them in tandem with discard. Now I am exploring options with counterspell. What it basically does is give us a transformational sideboard.
I understand the card sideboard, but I'm not a big fan mainboard. Also, as for your sideboard counterspells, I run a one of spell queller in the sideboard, which is fantastic with chord and company, and I can cast it cause of cavern and horizon canopy, and it's performed fantastically. I'd highly recommend it.
Seeing a lot of talk about thought knot brewing. It's definitely a good card, but what exactly are we attempting to do with it? Are we using it to disrupt potential sweepers or combo? That seems to be the main "weakness" it could help with? If that's the case, does it come down quick enough to accomplish that? Turn 3 on the play may work, but turn 3 on the draw would likely be to late to stop a sweeper or combo card in many scenarios, especially post board where people are mulliganing into their sideboard cards.
Perhaps just some ignorance on my part, just curious what void people see this card filling in the deck.
Doesn't seem like something we'd want to Chord for, isn't an elf, and can't Company into it. Those seem like three pretty large strikes for a deck that assumes much of its power from synergy amongst those cards. Especially if we're going to be jamming 3-4 of them main. Admittedly I haven't play tested the card and am intrigued, hoping for some knowledge here.
I agree entirely here. I think the space is much better filled with other things, particularly selfless spirits, rec sages, etc... (other sideboard cards in mainboard slots for game 1 utility)
Mathematically, the curio does make companies worse, but I've had multiple games where I probably would have lost had I not had a curio on the field then companied into a nettle sentinel + visionary or something of the like, and I've had many fewer games where I've lost cause I'm holding a curio that I can't do anything. At 2 of in the deck, it seems to be very rarely a dead card. I know you think it's trying to be too cute, but there's something legitimately threatening about being able to win out of absolutely nowhere, and I think that's a synergy that company and curio go very well together for. I really think it improves the deck to have an I win button.
Also, I really don't think having 2 curios disrupts the default strategy at all. Unlike vizier druid, it doesn't require any creature alterations in the deck, just 2 free slots.
Could someone tell me some of the advantages of running a couple copies of Lead the Stampede over Chord of Calling? I understand that it's better recovery and a little less versatility for instant speed answers, but wouldn't you want to run 4 of 1 of them and just completely ignore the other based on your build? What's the argument for splitting them? Which of them is "better" for a chord list, which is better for a vizier list, and which is better for a straight aggro list? Thanks ahead of time, I really appreciate the input.
By the way, for those who were talking about land numbers earlier I ran the math again. Assuming that we will only keep hands with 1, 2, or 3 land,
If we have 15 sources, our opening hand will have the chance of (btw I know the sunpetal grove is terrible. It was subbing for a horizon canopy):
1 land hand = 31.6%
2 land hand = 33.2%
3 land hand = 17.6%
for a total keep percentage of 82.4%
If we have 16 sources,
1 land hand = 29.2%
2 land hand = 33.7%
3 land hand = 19.7$
for a total keep percentage of 82.6%
If we have 17 sources, the opening hand will have these chances:
1 land hand = 26.9%
2 land hand = 33.9%
3 land hand = 21.7%
for a total keep percentage of 82.5%
And with 18,
1 land hand = 24.5%
2 land hand = 33.7%
3 land hand = 23.6%
for a total keep percentage of 81.8%
Keep in mind that keep percentage isn't the only important piece of information in the math above; every elves player needs to select the number of land that gives them the best chances of the starting hand they want to play with.
Admittedly, with the list I had earlier, 15 land is terrible, as is having 61 cards in the board (I didn't notice this before I went), and I know I was trying to do too many different things with that list. Still I feel there's a good argument to be made for a 16 land elves build. I find that I prefer my 1 land hands to my 3 land hands.
Though I do think there's something to be said about the fact that every top performing elves list on mtggoldfish runs 18.
Thus far, I disagree about Emrakul, but I definitely see where you're coming from with magistrate and warcaller, and I'll be ditching them to try a more chord-based sideboard approach for a little while.
At that particular FNM, here's what I faced:
R1: 8-rack, score 2-0
G1: I kept a pretty bad 1 land hand, but all he had was hand disruption, and I easily outpaced him and hit him to death with archdruid pumped elves.
G2: I had a near god hand and destroyed him. I'm pretty sure the only thing he actually did that game were play a rack and shrieking affliction. I played out my hand turn 2 anyway and killed with ezuri overrun turn 3. I didn't care at all about his tick damage
R2: I faced another 8-rack deck, which was really odd, score 2-0
G1: I kept a terrible hand with 2 chords and 2 CoCo's, hoping I'd draw into enough land to play them. I drew straight creatures. Literally every 3 mana creature in the deck, and I was sitting on 2 lands. He went through 3 Liliana of the Veils and just couldn't find a win condition. Eventually he got a The Rack out, and I got down pretty low, but I drew into a land and topdecked my one-of Reclamation Sage. I then just played elves and won. This was by far the worst game I've ever played with any elves list, and though it was mostly user error for not mulling, I had nothing but terrible luck the whole game. Till the rec sage, that is.
G2: I had a pretty good hand and killed on turn 3 with ezuri damage.
Note: I'd been siding out my curios for Leylines of Sanctity during these games, although because of the lack of impact Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek had on me during these two matches and the Abzan match I'm about to tell you about, I'm thinking I'm going to take both of them out of the sideboard.
R3: Abzan Death's Shadow, score 2-0
G1: He fatal pushed my turn 1 Joraga Warcaller (I kept cause I had a heritage druid, nettle sentinel, and second land in hand). It was an odd play, and I think it was a bad one overall, but it did prevent my turn 2 hand dump. He proceeded to play a Siege Rhino, but I was much wider than him. I actually did end up trading a llanowar, nettle sentinel, dwynen's elite, and token with his rhino, which really could have bitten me, but before damage, I chorded in my magistrate. The following turn he dropped a goyf, and I pumped an elf with magistrate. Then he swung in with goyf not realizing my blocker would live after the magistrate pump. I swung in for lethal the next turn.
G2: He kept a 1 land hand and scooped after I played a couple elves turn 2.
R4: Jeskai Saheeli, score 0-2
Both games, my guys pretty much just got bolted and pathed, then snapcaster bolted and pathed, then felidar guardian snapcaster bolted and pathed. I almost won the first one, but I was several damage short. I think I got him to 3 or so, but Lightning Helix brought him back up. I got a rest in peace in one of the games, but it got snared. I didn't see any of my selfless spirits or chords that were capable of bringing them out. I think I would have won game 1 if I did, because he wiped me with a verdict then I CoCo'd, then he wiped my board again.
I want to explain some of my odd choices with this list. Firstly, you'll notice that it's a very old fashioned Cloudstone Curio build. I love the versatility of strategy that comes with adding in a combo piece. It really puts a threatening clock on the opponent in matches where our powerful aggro alone just won't get there. Particularly, I like it's looming threat against control decks (especially jeskai) that often don't have artifact removal. One good Return to the Ranks (which I know I don't currently run) on turn 5 or 6 could just allow me to go infinite. I know a lot of other people who like combo elves would just elect to run Devoted Druid + Vizier of Remedies, but I think that inflates the curve and the 4-of non elf in Vizier removes more synergy from the deck than it's worth. I also love the Emrakul, the Aeons Torn that the curio allows me to run. It's great mill prevention, and it can get elves back in my deck which adds a fair amount of resilience.
Secondly, I only run 15 lands. I know this thread is pretty decided that 17-18 is the right number, but with only 15, I have only a 5% increased chance of having to take a mulligan due to lands, and about a 30% reduced risk of land flooding. Of course, this makes my matchup against burn and control decks worse, and I'm not 100% sure 15 lands is right, but when I've tested in the past with more, I've almost always felt flooded. Another reason to run fewer lands is more mainboard answers. I like the Reclamation Sage, Ezuri's Archers, and Essence Warden to be in the mainboard just in case. I haven't done extensive testing like this, so my opinion may change, but I like to have the versatility.
Thirdly, I run the Immaculate MagistrateJoraga Warcaller combo. It can just win me games out of nowhere that I have no business winning, and while company doesn't hit magistrate, neither card is dead on its own. I know that this idea has fallen to the wayside, at least in this thread, but personally, I'd much rather run a magistrate and a couple warcallers than 4 mainboard Shaman of the Packs. From my testing, I don't like shaman very much, but I am playing with running 1 or 2 main/side, especially when I rework my land base.
Also, one of my favorite things about my build is the one of Spell Queller in the sideboard. I'm not sure it's won me any games on its own, but the opponents' reaction is pretty great, and it usually gets me a couple extra turns to overrun or combo out.
I love Elves, and I've been playing it since 2013 or so, but I'm looking to really start optimizing my list to be hyper competitive now. I already have plans to sub out the Sunpetal Groves for Horizon Canopys and switch out some of the Forests for Gilt-Leaf Palaces. I also have plans to make the sideboard more adaptable via making most of it chordable creatures; for example, I'll be adding in Phyrexian Revoker. I want to find something strong to fight graveyard strategies, but so far, Scavenging Ooze just seems too weak for elves, and I really wish I had a Rest In Peace instead most of the time, so I may just end up going with those. I also think I would like either 1 or 2 Return to the Ranks in the sideboard against decks with lots of removal or wipes. I'd love some suggestions.
Also, one of the things I'm not in love with in this list are the 4 chords. I think I might take that down to 3. I also might take the Fracturing Gusts down to 2 in the sideboard, even though it's one of the greatest things about playing elves in my opinion. I haven't seen any benefit from the Leyline of Sanctitys, and I think I might switch them out for 2 Essence Warden sideboard and take the 1 out of the main instead, even though they don't deal with Liliana of the Veil or Inquisition of Kozilek as well as leyline does. From my experience, discard and sac effects don't really hurt elves a ton. They're certainly no fun, but I'm much more scared of targeted removal. I'll also be switching out the Relic of Progenitus for a second RIP because I'll be adding in canopies.
I'd be very curious to know whether anyone else is running a curio or magistrate build. Please let me know how it's going.
Infinite mana isn't bad, but it usually isn't worth building a deck around on its own. As a last example, elves can run druid vizier or cloudstone curio for a chance at infinite mana, which helps the elves deck because it can use that mana under any circumstance to go through their deck or fetch an instant win con (either bounce an elvish visionary with curio or chord for an ezuri with druid vizier for infinite pump), but either of the combos on their own aren't good.
I understand the card sideboard, but I'm not a big fan mainboard. Also, as for your sideboard counterspells, I run a one of spell queller in the sideboard, which is fantastic with chord and company, and I can cast it cause of cavern and horizon canopy, and it's performed fantastically. I'd highly recommend it.
I agree entirely here. I think the space is much better filled with other things, particularly selfless spirits, rec sages, etc... (other sideboard cards in mainboard slots for game 1 utility)
Also, I really don't think having 2 curios disrupts the default strategy at all. Unlike vizier druid, it doesn't require any creature alterations in the deck, just 2 free slots.
Could someone tell me some of the advantages of running a couple copies of Lead the Stampede over Chord of Calling? I understand that it's better recovery and a little less versatility for instant speed answers, but wouldn't you want to run 4 of 1 of them and just completely ignore the other based on your build? What's the argument for splitting them? Which of them is "better" for a chord list, which is better for a vizier list, and which is better for a straight aggro list? Thanks ahead of time, I really appreciate the input.
By the way, for those who were talking about land numbers earlier I ran the math again. Assuming that we will only keep hands with 1, 2, or 3 land,
If we have 15 sources, our opening hand will have the chance of (btw I know the sunpetal grove is terrible. It was subbing for a horizon canopy):
1 land hand = 31.6%
2 land hand = 33.2%
3 land hand = 17.6%
for a total keep percentage of 82.4%
If we have 16 sources,
1 land hand = 29.2%
2 land hand = 33.7%
3 land hand = 19.7$
for a total keep percentage of 82.6%
If we have 17 sources, the opening hand will have these chances:
1 land hand = 26.9%
2 land hand = 33.9%
3 land hand = 21.7%
for a total keep percentage of 82.5%
And with 18,
1 land hand = 24.5%
2 land hand = 33.7%
3 land hand = 23.6%
for a total keep percentage of 81.8%
Keep in mind that keep percentage isn't the only important piece of information in the math above; every elves player needs to select the number of land that gives them the best chances of the starting hand they want to play with.
Admittedly, with the list I had earlier, 15 land is terrible, as is having 61 cards in the board (I didn't notice this before I went), and I know I was trying to do too many different things with that list. Still I feel there's a good argument to be made for a 16 land elves build. I find that I prefer my 1 land hands to my 3 land hands.
Though I do think there's something to be said about the fact that every top performing elves list on mtggoldfish runs 18.
At that particular FNM, here's what I faced:
R1: 8-rack, score 2-0
G1: I kept a pretty bad 1 land hand, but all he had was hand disruption, and I easily outpaced him and hit him to death with archdruid pumped elves.
G2: I had a near god hand and destroyed him. I'm pretty sure the only thing he actually did that game were play a rack and shrieking affliction. I played out my hand turn 2 anyway and killed with ezuri overrun turn 3. I didn't care at all about his tick damage
R2: I faced another 8-rack deck, which was really odd, score 2-0
G1: I kept a terrible hand with 2 chords and 2 CoCo's, hoping I'd draw into enough land to play them. I drew straight creatures. Literally every 3 mana creature in the deck, and I was sitting on 2 lands. He went through 3 Liliana of the Veils and just couldn't find a win condition. Eventually he got a The Rack out, and I got down pretty low, but I drew into a land and topdecked my one-of Reclamation Sage. I then just played elves and won. This was by far the worst game I've ever played with any elves list, and though it was mostly user error for not mulling, I had nothing but terrible luck the whole game. Till the rec sage, that is.
G2: I had a pretty good hand and killed on turn 3 with ezuri damage.
Note: I'd been siding out my curios for Leylines of Sanctity during these games, although because of the lack of impact Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek had on me during these two matches and the Abzan match I'm about to tell you about, I'm thinking I'm going to take both of them out of the sideboard.
R3: Abzan Death's Shadow, score 2-0
G1: He fatal pushed my turn 1 Joraga Warcaller (I kept cause I had a heritage druid, nettle sentinel, and second land in hand). It was an odd play, and I think it was a bad one overall, but it did prevent my turn 2 hand dump. He proceeded to play a Siege Rhino, but I was much wider than him. I actually did end up trading a llanowar, nettle sentinel, dwynen's elite, and token with his rhino, which really could have bitten me, but before damage, I chorded in my magistrate. The following turn he dropped a goyf, and I pumped an elf with magistrate. Then he swung in with goyf not realizing my blocker would live after the magistrate pump. I swung in for lethal the next turn.
G2: He kept a 1 land hand and scooped after I played a couple elves turn 2.
R4: Jeskai Saheeli, score 0-2
Both games, my guys pretty much just got bolted and pathed, then snapcaster bolted and pathed, then felidar guardian snapcaster bolted and pathed. I almost won the first one, but I was several damage short. I think I got him to 3 or so, but Lightning Helix brought him back up. I got a rest in peace in one of the games, but it got snared. I didn't see any of my selfless spirits or chords that were capable of bringing them out. I think I would have won game 1 if I did, because he wiped me with a verdict then I CoCo'd, then he wiped my board again.
Main:
9 Forest
2 Sunpetal Grove
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Essence Warden
1 Ezuri's Archers
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Chord of Calling
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
2 Cloudstone Curio
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Collected Company
1 Immaculate Magistrate
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Spell Queller
1 Rest In Peace
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Fracturing Gust
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Spellskite
1 Reclamation Sage
I want to explain some of my odd choices with this list. Firstly, you'll notice that it's a very old fashioned Cloudstone Curio build. I love the versatility of strategy that comes with adding in a combo piece. It really puts a threatening clock on the opponent in matches where our powerful aggro alone just won't get there. Particularly, I like it's looming threat against control decks (especially jeskai) that often don't have artifact removal. One good Return to the Ranks (which I know I don't currently run) on turn 5 or 6 could just allow me to go infinite. I know a lot of other people who like combo elves would just elect to run Devoted Druid + Vizier of Remedies, but I think that inflates the curve and the 4-of non elf in Vizier removes more synergy from the deck than it's worth. I also love the Emrakul, the Aeons Torn that the curio allows me to run. It's great mill prevention, and it can get elves back in my deck which adds a fair amount of resilience.
Secondly, I only run 15 lands. I know this thread is pretty decided that 17-18 is the right number, but with only 15, I have only a 5% increased chance of having to take a mulligan due to lands, and about a 30% reduced risk of land flooding. Of course, this makes my matchup against burn and control decks worse, and I'm not 100% sure 15 lands is right, but when I've tested in the past with more, I've almost always felt flooded. Another reason to run fewer lands is more mainboard answers. I like the Reclamation Sage, Ezuri's Archers, and Essence Warden to be in the mainboard just in case. I haven't done extensive testing like this, so my opinion may change, but I like to have the versatility.
Thirdly, I run the Immaculate Magistrate Joraga Warcaller combo. It can just win me games out of nowhere that I have no business winning, and while company doesn't hit magistrate, neither card is dead on its own. I know that this idea has fallen to the wayside, at least in this thread, but personally, I'd much rather run a magistrate and a couple warcallers than 4 mainboard Shaman of the Packs. From my testing, I don't like shaman very much, but I am playing with running 1 or 2 main/side, especially when I rework my land base.
Also, one of my favorite things about my build is the one of Spell Queller in the sideboard. I'm not sure it's won me any games on its own, but the opponents' reaction is pretty great, and it usually gets me a couple extra turns to overrun or combo out.
I love Elves, and I've been playing it since 2013 or so, but I'm looking to really start optimizing my list to be hyper competitive now. I already have plans to sub out the Sunpetal Groves for Horizon Canopys and switch out some of the Forests for Gilt-Leaf Palaces. I also have plans to make the sideboard more adaptable via making most of it chordable creatures; for example, I'll be adding in Phyrexian Revoker. I want to find something strong to fight graveyard strategies, but so far, Scavenging Ooze just seems too weak for elves, and I really wish I had a Rest In Peace instead most of the time, so I may just end up going with those. I also think I would like either 1 or 2 Return to the Ranks in the sideboard against decks with lots of removal or wipes. I'd love some suggestions.
Also, one of the things I'm not in love with in this list are the 4 chords. I think I might take that down to 3. I also might take the Fracturing Gusts down to 2 in the sideboard, even though it's one of the greatest things about playing elves in my opinion. I haven't seen any benefit from the Leyline of Sanctitys, and I think I might switch them out for 2 Essence Warden sideboard and take the 1 out of the main instead, even though they don't deal with Liliana of the Veil or Inquisition of Kozilek as well as leyline does. From my experience, discard and sac effects don't really hurt elves a ton. They're certainly no fun, but I'm much more scared of targeted removal. I'll also be switching out the Relic of Progenitus for a second RIP because I'll be adding in canopies.
I'd be very curious to know whether anyone else is running a curio or magistrate build. Please let me know how it's going.