My 2 cents:
Sunderu is better against midrange/control and Platz is better against aggro/some combo/some prison. We struggle with aggro, so the Angel is the natural choice. However, when Titan resolves against Jeskai Control or Jund, it's game over more often than not, but in all matchups Angel mostly stalls until we can find a true finisher- it folds to path, double bolt, reflector mage, dismember, Kcommand, ancient grudge, etc. The only decks off the top of my head that can't beat resolved angel are ad nauseam and lantern control, and that's only pre-board. For that reason, I'm running with Sunderu right now, although if you play paper it's a meta call for sure.
Also, whichever one (or ones) you play, they will be boarded out often. They're narrow. Sometimes they don't do anything. If that doesn't appeal to you, it's totally valid to play neither.
In case the link doesn't work:
3UU
+1: Create a 1/1 Thopter with flying
0: Draw a card, if you control three or more artifacts, draw two cards.
-9: Emblem with "At the beginning of your end step, put a permanent from your library onto the battlefield"
Protects itself (sorta), good card advantage, game-winning ultimate. Could be good in a talisman-style deck that already runs baby karn to take advantage of the 0.
Thanks guys. I'm thinking FoR main and Tec Edge side now, and cutting ghost quarter entirely.
What's the stance on O-stone vs Ugin? I'm on a 2/1 split right now, but I don't know if that's correct. Ugin's a lot better if we can get a quick tron online, but is pretty much dead otherwise, and doesn't pitch to thirst. O-stone is much better if we can't get tron, but it's not a finisher in the same way that Ugin is. My other idea was going 1/2 and putting a second O-stone in the board for when people side in tron hate, but I don't know what I'd cut- maybe my second Spell Snare? Again, I'd like to hear what other people are doing.
I was running with 1 Field of Ruin main and 1 Ghost Quarter side for a while, but I swapped the FoR for a Tec Edge and have been liking it a lot. At least against control, Tec Edge is a lot better, since our mana advantage is our biggest strength and pseudo-Wastelanding maintains that advantage. Against aggro... FoR is better, but if you're spending your t3 to blow up a land, you're probably not in the best spot anyways. Overall, the somewhat poor blue fixing isn't worth it for me, but I'd love to hear other opinions.
Also, I've seen some lists with FoR in the side instead of GQ. What's the logic behind that? It seems to me like in the matchups where LD is relevant, you'd rather have GQ than FoR.
My question is about Gifts Ungiven.
How viable is it, when I do not have Crucible & EE pre-board? Quite a lot of times I find myself casting Gifts for the sake of casting, but the advantage felt is often not so big.
Crucible definitely isn’t necessary with Gifts. I run an EE, but it’s not needed for gifts to be good.
The main use for gifts in my experience is to pull 4 of our wincons out of our deck, and put them in either our hand or our graveyard (and we can put them into our hand through Academy Ruins eventually). We can also use it for a lot of other things. Need a board wipe? Fetch O-Stone/Ugin/Cyc Rift/something else (Snapcaster? EE? Mindslaver?) Need to get rid of a creature for a little? Dismember/Repeal/Cyc Rift/something else. Need a counter? Condescend/Supreme Will/Remand/Snappy. Countering something with Gifts isn’t the most practical, but it can be done. Basically, gifts can get us whatever effect we want at instant speed, which is really good.
I was wondering about the sideboard cards I see on MTG goldfish lists. Specifically two spreading seas,ghost quarter, and crucible. What match are these for exactly? Crucible is dicey as we dont put lands in the yard on our own so no guaranteed value (vs a fetch deck like gifts Tron) so do I want it vs anyone on field of ruin or fulminator or just ponza? Why do I have a GQ in the board? To combo w my one of crucible vs Tron?
And the two spreading seas I really don't get. Mainland's aren't particularly troublesome. Are they for Tron as well? Caverns? (Seems slow vs cavern)
Ghost quarter comes in against tron, cavern decks, and control decks as an extra land. Keep in mind that our 4 expedition maps can fetch GQ, which makes it a really good 1-of in matchups where it matters. This also helps crucible’s effectiveness. Crucible comes in against ponza and control, especially the 4 FoR variants. We eventually get a decent amount of lands in the grave through our GQ/FoR/Tec Edge and through Thirsts, so it’s not just dead on its own.
I recently cut my spreading seas, and haven’t missed them. They only really shine against tron. Otherwise they’re not worth bringing in a lot of the time.
Infernal Judgement's good against Eldrazi and Affinity in addition to Tron, so I think it'll see play, which really sucks. Wurmcoil is definitely our best wincon against BGx, and now we can't rely on it to gain value.
I mean, it depends what you're boarding in and the matchup right? Cutting things like maps in some matchups for extra interaction is often the right choice. Maps help your deck run smoother, sure, but disruption out of the board is usually more important in games 2-3.
Are we high on trinket mage? I've definitely run it in the past, but it's never done what I want it to do- much better to leave up counter/thirst on t3 than to slam a 2/2 that has no immediate impact (aside from chalice on 0, I guess). And for taking your turn 3 basically off, you get... Chalice on 2? EE+crack on 2? Ballista on 2? Cards that can be very good, sure, but spending 2 turns at sorcery speed to drop them doesn't seem ideal to me. Treasure mage and gifts ungiven to me are late-game cards to fetch the right wincon, and while trinket mage can fetch ballista, I'd rather have another ballista instead 90% of the time. Am I playing it wrong? Missing something?
I guess my point was more that it's not a dead card most of the time. Activating a mindslaver against all of the decks I listed would win you the game, or at the minimum put you very far ahead. A wurmcoil would be better against some of those decks, but that's why I run a split, with padding in the board.
On a different note, I've run a few matches with Battlesphere instead of the second wurmcoil main. Great against Jeskai, pretty good against Humans and Counters Company (interchangeable with Wurmcoil, more or less), ok against Hollow One (good, but woulda preferred wurmcoil), bad against Jund. Overall, if I was running 3 Wurmcoils I'd definitely go down to a 2-1 split, but I'm leaning towards sticking with the 2-0.
BloodyRabbit, how's TKS compare to Baby Karn for you? Is it that Karn's not impactful enough? Seems like they'd fill the same spot in a deck, even though they play different roles.
I also wouldn't cut mindslavers. Slaver+Ruins is our inevitability, and it forces our opponents to interact with us (of course, assuming we live until then).
Mindslaver is also just a good card against a lot of decks. It's really our only way to beat Gx tron, where Wurmcoil is terrible and our other wincons are mediocre at best. Cracking a slaver against GBx or Control is often game-winning, as we can use their removal to kill their threats instead of ours and run them out of gas. Also, if you live long enough to crack against combo like Storm or KCI, you can sometimes just play their deck and kill them. It's worst against non-interactive aggro, like Hollow One or Dredge, but no one wincon covers every matchup.
For what it's worth, out of the top 12 decks on Goldfish right now, a resolved Slaver is good against 9 of them (Jeskai Control, Gx Tron, Affinity, Jund, Mardu Pyro, Burn, GDS, TitanShift, and Storm) and bad against 3 (Humans, Hollow One, Bogles). Not saying I would want 4 Slavers against Storm, but I'd rather have a Slaver than a ground beater 99% of the time.
As for hate, most people won't bring in grave hate just to stop Academy Ruins and a few Snapcasters (maybe it's correct, but I haven't seen it a lot). Land hate is a bit more problematic, but that's a problem that's not necessarily specific to Mindslaver. If someone's attacking our tronlands, we're not casting Mindslaver or Ugin or Wurmcoil. Blowing up academy ruins is rough, but 1 activation of Mindslaver can sometimes be enough in the same way that 1 Wurmcoil can sometimes be enough. Against heavy LD decks like Ponza or UW Control with 4 Field of Ruin, we can bring in a Crucible.
Overall, it depends on the meta. I like 1 main and 1 side, but that's me. I've seen Shok run with 2 main recently.
Just scanning through the results, Affinity is the worst matchup. Does cutting the o-stone have something to do with it? Ugin doesn't hit most of their stuff, which is one reason why I prefer a 1-1 split of O-stone and Ugin (minimum). If you're convinced on no O-stone, then an extra Walking Ballista in the 75 might be helpful.
Also, how's Myr Battlesphere seemed? It's been disregarded in the past for not being versatile enough, but it does have good synergy with Karn's -2.
Edit: Didn't read the whole post. Might have to try a battlesphere, seems like it could be good against humans where wurmcoil isn't (like you said).
Personally, I rarely use River of Tears for Dismember. Better to leave up more interaction than to save a couple life in most scenarios. Rivers are helpful for casting late-game Dismembers when life is more valuable.
I probably use black mana most for EE on 2. Assuming I have my EE, hitting t4 black mana with 3 rivers and 4 maps is relatively easy.
Overall, Rivers are low opportunity cost for decent upside.
Sunderu is better against midrange/control and Platz is better against aggro/some combo/some prison. We struggle with aggro, so the Angel is the natural choice. However, when Titan resolves against Jeskai Control or Jund, it's game over more often than not, but in all matchups Angel mostly stalls until we can find a true finisher- it folds to path, double bolt, reflector mage, dismember, Kcommand, ancient grudge, etc. The only decks off the top of my head that can't beat resolved angel are ad nauseam and lantern control, and that's only pre-board. For that reason, I'm running with Sunderu right now, although if you play paper it's a meta call for sure.
Also, whichever one (or ones) you play, they will be boarded out often. They're narrow. Sometimes they don't do anything. If that doesn't appeal to you, it's totally valid to play neither.
In case the link doesn't work:
3UU
+1: Create a 1/1 Thopter with flying
0: Draw a card, if you control three or more artifacts, draw two cards.
-9: Emblem with "At the beginning of your end step, put a permanent from your library onto the battlefield"
Protects itself (sorta), good card advantage, game-winning ultimate. Could be good in a talisman-style deck that already runs baby karn to take advantage of the 0.
What's the stance on O-stone vs Ugin? I'm on a 2/1 split right now, but I don't know if that's correct. Ugin's a lot better if we can get a quick tron online, but is pretty much dead otherwise, and doesn't pitch to thirst. O-stone is much better if we can't get tron, but it's not a finisher in the same way that Ugin is. My other idea was going 1/2 and putting a second O-stone in the board for when people side in tron hate, but I don't know what I'd cut- maybe my second Spell Snare? Again, I'd like to hear what other people are doing.
I was running with 1 Field of Ruin main and 1 Ghost Quarter side for a while, but I swapped the FoR for a Tec Edge and have been liking it a lot. At least against control, Tec Edge is a lot better, since our mana advantage is our biggest strength and pseudo-Wastelanding maintains that advantage. Against aggro... FoR is better, but if you're spending your t3 to blow up a land, you're probably not in the best spot anyways. Overall, the somewhat poor blue fixing isn't worth it for me, but I'd love to hear other opinions.
Also, I've seen some lists with FoR in the side instead of GQ. What's the logic behind that? It seems to me like in the matchups where LD is relevant, you'd rather have GQ than FoR.
Crucible definitely isn’t necessary with Gifts. I run an EE, but it’s not needed for gifts to be good.
The main use for gifts in my experience is to pull 4 of our wincons out of our deck, and put them in either our hand or our graveyard (and we can put them into our hand through Academy Ruins eventually). We can also use it for a lot of other things. Need a board wipe? Fetch O-Stone/Ugin/Cyc Rift/something else (Snapcaster? EE? Mindslaver?) Need to get rid of a creature for a little? Dismember/Repeal/Cyc Rift/something else. Need a counter? Condescend/Supreme Will/Remand/Snappy. Countering something with Gifts isn’t the most practical, but it can be done. Basically, gifts can get us whatever effect we want at instant speed, which is really good.
Ghost quarter comes in against tron, cavern decks, and control decks as an extra land. Keep in mind that our 4 expedition maps can fetch GQ, which makes it a really good 1-of in matchups where it matters. This also helps crucible’s effectiveness. Crucible comes in against ponza and control, especially the 4 FoR variants. We eventually get a decent amount of lands in the grave through our GQ/FoR/Tec Edge and through Thirsts, so it’s not just dead on its own.
I recently cut my spreading seas, and haven’t missed them. They only really shine against tron. Otherwise they’re not worth bringing in a lot of the time.
Thoughts on the Hollow One matchup? It's pretty unique as far as modern decks go, so I'd be interested in hearing your take on it.
On a different note, I've run a few matches with Battlesphere instead of the second wurmcoil main. Great against Jeskai, pretty good against Humans and Counters Company (interchangeable with Wurmcoil, more or less), ok against Hollow One (good, but woulda preferred wurmcoil), bad against Jund. Overall, if I was running 3 Wurmcoils I'd definitely go down to a 2-1 split, but I'm leaning towards sticking with the 2-0.
BloodyRabbit, how's TKS compare to Baby Karn for you? Is it that Karn's not impactful enough? Seems like they'd fill the same spot in a deck, even though they play different roles.
Mindslaver is also just a good card against a lot of decks. It's really our only way to beat Gx tron, where Wurmcoil is terrible and our other wincons are mediocre at best. Cracking a slaver against GBx or Control is often game-winning, as we can use their removal to kill their threats instead of ours and run them out of gas. Also, if you live long enough to crack against combo like Storm or KCI, you can sometimes just play their deck and kill them. It's worst against non-interactive aggro, like Hollow One or Dredge, but no one wincon covers every matchup.
For what it's worth, out of the top 12 decks on Goldfish right now, a resolved Slaver is good against 9 of them (Jeskai Control, Gx Tron, Affinity, Jund, Mardu Pyro, Burn, GDS, TitanShift, and Storm) and bad against 3 (Humans, Hollow One, Bogles). Not saying I would want 4 Slavers against Storm, but I'd rather have a Slaver than a ground beater 99% of the time.
As for hate, most people won't bring in grave hate just to stop Academy Ruins and a few Snapcasters (maybe it's correct, but I haven't seen it a lot). Land hate is a bit more problematic, but that's a problem that's not necessarily specific to Mindslaver. If someone's attacking our tronlands, we're not casting Mindslaver or Ugin or Wurmcoil. Blowing up academy ruins is rough, but 1 activation of Mindslaver can sometimes be enough in the same way that 1 Wurmcoil can sometimes be enough. Against heavy LD decks like Ponza or UW Control with 4 Field of Ruin, we can bring in a Crucible.
Overall, it depends on the meta. I like 1 main and 1 side, but that's me. I've seen Shok run with 2 main recently.
Also very sold on karn now. I'll pick one up as soon as I can afford it.
Also, how's Myr Battlesphere seemed? It's been disregarded in the past for not being versatile enough, but it does have good synergy with Karn's -2.
Edit: Didn't read the whole post. Might have to try a battlesphere, seems like it could be good against humans where wurmcoil isn't (like you said).
I probably use black mana most for EE on 2. Assuming I have my EE, hitting t4 black mana with 3 rivers and 4 maps is relatively easy.
Overall, Rivers are low opportunity cost for decent upside.