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  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Colonnade is definitely an important target that I missed.

    I still think there's a case for MB spatial though, it's definitely not fair to say that there's not even a chance. Each has clear upsides and downsides, it's a matter of weighing them vs the current meta and the rest of your deck.

    Also, river of tears is never something you should be relying on to reduce the life loss- even if you run 3 or 4 rivers, a 2-mana sorcery-speed kill spell (that still costs 2 life) is just not very good. Unless I'm at <4 life, I'd rather be holding up counters or instant-speed removal.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    The list of creatures that dismember always kills and spatial always doesn't in modern is somewhat short:

    Street wraith (technically)
    TKS
    Gurmag Angler
    Hollow One

    off the top 50 creatures in modern from MTGGoldfish. Others off the top of my head are reality smasher, tasigur, bedlam reveler, and most things in living end.

    Spatial kills everything in humans and spirits (w/o lords), everything in burn, everything in counters company, everything in trad affinity, everything in jund except big goyfs and scoozes, everything in wizards... list goes on.

    The 4 life that dismember costs shouldn't be diminished. 4 life is a big deal against decks looking to beat down fast; aka the decks we have the most trouble with. Often trading the 4 life for a creature will buy you time overall, but i'd encourage you to test when the 4 life vs the 1 extra mana matters. Dismembering a vengevine hurts the soul.

    I used to be on 2 dismember main... I switched to a 1/1 split, and I've been liking it, although it could go either way. The big delve creatures, hollow ones, and revelers are all threats that we can't easily repeal/deal with in other ways, and killing them is important... just make sure to pack some of both in the 75.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Nice finish. I've found the same thing with ugin in gifts piles- especially against decks like spirits, gifts turns into 3 cards.

    It could be worth trying a karn+talisman list with extra gifts, too. Talismans would help offset buried ruin in terms of blue mana, and karn is kind of like ugin in that your opponent will almost never give you karn off gifts. He does also synergize with crucible, and with the extra chalices in your build.

    I'm definitely not above jamming a second gifts in my crucible-less, buried ruin-less build tbh.

    As for how to play it in less gifts-centric builds, I agree with barrin... I've always looked at it as a card advantage spell, and not necessarily as an instant game-winner. You get your 3rd and 4th best cards for any given scenario, yeah, but we have plenty of redundancy, not to mention recursion in the forms of snappy and academy ruins. Running it without a 100% guaranteed slaver lock pile is totally fine: there are a few lines you can take where if your opponent does everything to keep you off of academy ruins, you can either get 3 out of 4 wincons or just rip through like 20 cards, which should usually be enough to win.

    Snapcaster is very good with gifts (and just by itself). I'd recommend one in your list VickVega, if budget isn't a concern. It lets you recast relevant spells that you giftsed for and didn't get, and if you don't need to answer something immediately, you can flash back gifts.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    A few things about gifts:

    You can always fetch a mindslaver (or any artifact wincon) to either your hand or your graveyard to recur w/ academy ruins, which helps speed up your inevitability.

    We run so many 1-ofs that an instant-speed gifts can almost always get us what we want for the next turn. Examples:

    Ugin/Ostone/Cyc Rift/EE for wipes
    Slaver/Ugin/Ballista/Wurmcoil for wincons
    Condescend/Supreme Will/Remand/Snappy for counters
    Map/Twest/Snappy/Slaver for Academy Ruins (note: doesn’t guarantee the Ruins, but you can guarantee any other two cards as an alternative)
    Repeal/Dismember/Cyc Rift/Snappy for bounce/removal
    Obviously all of these depend on your deck, the matchup and the board state. Wurmcoil is bad in some matchups where sundering titan is better (like jeskai), so you’d switch those. I run a spell burst, so I usually get that over remand.

    I find the crucible/buried ruin package to be a bit too slow. We can win in other ways, and the opportunity cost of the colorless land over a blue source isn’t worth it to me.

    As far as gifts winning the game on resolve... if we end-step it and untap with tron, usually, if we hardcast it t4, it’s just a good card. That said, it is a really good value card and I would recommend testing with it at least some.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    I don't play trinket mage right now, but I'd still rather have needle. T1 vs T2 can be a pretty big difference.

    On another note, I've been rocking a 1-of spell burst in place of my second Supreme Will. Having a hard counter can be good early game- like a t2 stirrings, or a t2 goblin guide, or even t1 opal. In the mid game, it gets better- for example, it's hard for us to stop 2 lethal bolts on t5 with condescends/remands when we don't have a billion mana- spell burst takes care of one for cheap, and leaves you with mana left to counter the other. Plus, once you start buying it back, it's obviously very strong. I replaced Supreme Will because I've found that it's more often an impulse than a counter- in fact, it's a pretty bad counter.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Here's my sideboard, if it helps:

    1 Mindslaver (I run a 1/1 split and 2/0 with wurmcoil- they could be switched, still not sure)
    1 Chalice (1 main)
    1 Crucible
    1 Tec Edge
    2 TKS
    3 Spatial
    3 Surgical
    1 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Negate
    1 Spell Pierce

    I'm not beyond playing a Needle/Spyglass, to be honest. I've felt the same way against walkers, and needle on Aether Vial is decent also. I think I'll trim a Surgical for a Needle, at least to try.

    Burn is rough, but imo the best outs are chalices, spatials, and counters such as spell snare/spell pierce- our MB counters are pretty bad. Also TKS is solid.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    We don't have a mana denial plan, but we do have a mana advantage plan. Tec Edge acts as a backup of sorts. If we don't have our mana advantage, then we're basically a bad control deck. Against UWx, for example, we often lose because it's hard to slam a 6-8cmc threat and win a counter war and counter a Teferi that removes our threat in one turn cycle without a mana advantage. Since typically, we can gain more mana through fewer lands with tron, slowing our opponent down with Tec Edge as opposed to leaving them neutral with FoR is advantageous.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Echoing Truth is an interesting choice. Is it for anything in particular? We already have a decent amount of bounce in the main.

    I'd personally replace it with either another surgical or Grafdigger's Cage. Only 1 surgical for GY hate is pretty light.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    My 2 cents:
    Sunderu is better against midrange/control and Platz is better against aggro/some combo/some prison. We struggle with aggro, so the Angel is the natural choice. However, when Titan resolves against Jeskai Control or Jund, it's game over more often than not, but in all matchups Angel mostly stalls until we can find a true finisher- it folds to path, double bolt, reflector mage, dismember, Kcommand, ancient grudge, etc. The only decks off the top of my head that can't beat resolved angel are ad nauseam and lantern control, and that's only pre-board. For that reason, I'm running with Sunderu right now, although if you play paper it's a meta call for sure.

    Also, whichever one (or ones) you play, they will be boarded out often. They're narrow. Sometimes they don't do anything. If that doesn't appeal to you, it's totally valid to play neither.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    M19 Spoiler: Tezzeret, Artifice Master

    In case the link doesn't work:
    3UU
    +1: Create a 1/1 Thopter with flying
    0: Draw a card, if you control three or more artifacts, draw two cards.
    -9: Emblem with "At the beginning of your end step, put a permanent from your library onto the battlefield"

    Protects itself (sorta), good card advantage, game-winning ultimate. Could be good in a talisman-style deck that already runs baby karn to take advantage of the 0.

    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Thanks guys. I'm thinking FoR main and Tec Edge side now, and cutting ghost quarter entirely.

    What's the stance on O-stone vs Ugin? I'm on a 2/1 split right now, but I don't know if that's correct. Ugin's a lot better if we can get a quick tron online, but is pretty much dead otherwise, and doesn't pitch to thirst. O-stone is much better if we can't get tron, but it's not a finisher in the same way that Ugin is. My other idea was going 1/2 and putting a second O-stone in the board for when people side in tron hate, but I don't know what I'd cut- maybe my second Spell Snare? Again, I'd like to hear what other people are doing.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Question: What are people's thoughts on the three main LD lands? Field of Ruin Ghost Quarter Tectonic Edge

    I was running with 1 Field of Ruin main and 1 Ghost Quarter side for a while, but I swapped the FoR for a Tec Edge and have been liking it a lot. At least against control, Tec Edge is a lot better, since our mana advantage is our biggest strength and pseudo-Wastelanding maintains that advantage. Against aggro... FoR is better, but if you're spending your t3 to blow up a land, you're probably not in the best spot anyways. Overall, the somewhat poor blue fixing isn't worth it for me, but I'd love to hear other opinions.

    Also, I've seen some lists with FoR in the side instead of GQ. What's the logic behind that? It seems to me like in the matchups where LD is relevant, you'd rather have GQ than FoR.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Quote from wambam »

    My question is about Gifts Ungiven.
    How viable is it, when I do not have Crucible & EE pre-board? Quite a lot of times I find myself casting Gifts for the sake of casting, but the advantage felt is often not so big.

    Crucible definitely isn’t necessary with Gifts. I run an EE, but it’s not needed for gifts to be good.

    The main use for gifts in my experience is to pull 4 of our wincons out of our deck, and put them in either our hand or our graveyard (and we can put them into our hand through Academy Ruins eventually). We can also use it for a lot of other things. Need a board wipe? Fetch O-Stone/Ugin/Cyc Rift/something else (Snapcaster? EE? Mindslaver?) Need to get rid of a creature for a little? Dismember/Repeal/Cyc Rift/something else. Need a counter? Condescend/Supreme Will/Remand/Snappy. Countering something with Gifts isn’t the most practical, but it can be done. Basically, gifts can get us whatever effect we want at instant speed, which is really good.

    Quote from BadMcFadden »
    I was wondering about the sideboard cards I see on MTG goldfish lists. Specifically two spreading seas,ghost quarter, and crucible. What match are these for exactly? Crucible is dicey as we dont put lands in the yard on our own so no guaranteed value (vs a fetch deck like gifts Tron) so do I want it vs anyone on field of ruin or fulminator or just ponza? Why do I have a GQ in the board? To combo w my one of crucible vs Tron?

    And the two spreading seas I really don't get. Mainland's aren't particularly troublesome. Are they for Tron as well? Caverns? (Seems slow vs cavern)


    Ghost quarter comes in against tron, cavern decks, and control decks as an extra land. Keep in mind that our 4 expedition maps can fetch GQ, which makes it a really good 1-of in matchups where it matters. This also helps crucible’s effectiveness. Crucible comes in against ponza and control, especially the 4 FoR variants. We eventually get a decent amount of lands in the grave through our GQ/FoR/Tec Edge and through Thirsts, so it’s not just dead on its own.

    I recently cut my spreading seas, and haven’t missed them. They only really shine against tron. Otherwise they’re not worth bringing in a lot of the time.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Infernal Judgement's good against Eldrazi and Affinity in addition to Tron, so I think it'll see play, which really sucks. Wurmcoil is definitely our best wincon against BGx, and now we can't rely on it to gain value.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    I mean, it depends what you're boarding in and the matchup right? Cutting things like maps in some matchups for extra interaction is often the right choice. Maps help your deck run smoother, sure, but disruption out of the board is usually more important in games 2-3.
    Posted in: Control
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