I have been happy with Nissa VoZ. Yes, usually all it does is make chump-blockers, but those 0/1's are more relevant than they would seem. Good against edicts (though Lili is a bit out of favor right now) and also Thought-Knot Seer, Tasigur, Shadow, Goblin Guide don't have trample and can be shut down by Nissa while she threatens to Sphinx's Revelation them out of the game if they ignore her for too long. In the meantime, she sits there adding 2 devotion and distracting the opponent, giving me the time I need to set everything else up.
I do wish Nissa synergized with the rest of the deck a little bit more, beyond the two green mana symbols and being hard to kill, but she's the best I've found for the 3 cmc slot. I've tested Tireless Tracker extensively, but it is fragile and thus always felt like a win-more, in that games where it survived long enough to do anything I would have won anyway. That said, I would like some way of finding more CA in my 60. I haven't tried courser very much, just not a fan of giving my opponent information. Maybe it's good enough to be worth it?
I tested a little with Bow of Nylea for hard-to-kill devotion on a general utility card. Shenanigans with Ballista are loads of fun, but I think the card doesn't quite do enough to be a do-nothing on turn 2 or 3. Still might be good as a 1-of maybe?
I am (the last person here?) playing T&N. While it's a lot of fun it is also just annoyingly mediocre. After about 100 matches (FNM at a spikey lgs mostly), I'm at almost exactly 50% and wanting to do better. I feel like my list is not quite tuned and wondering if you guys have advice
Ideas I've had:
The only MB card i really don't like is Primal Command. It just seems a little too clunky. I want to replace it with something less mana intensive, and preferably a permanent for devotion, but I'm not sure what.
I don't really like my sideboard. The biggest problem is that very few of my cards add devotion, so boarding dilutes my plan. However, individually I like all the cards except the roast, natures claim, and Thrun. That leaves 3 SB spaces open. Genesis Hydra? Engineered Explosives? More Blood Moon?
I also might want a white splash with a Temple Garden or a few birds in main, which lets me hardcast leyline easier, and gives me better sideboard options. EE on x = 3 or 4, Path, Dragonlord Dromoka?
I've seen people here recommended 1x treetop village in devotion decks, and I had people at my LGS last night recommend raging ravine. Which one, if the tap land is worth being able to hit it+ kessig with primetime, would be the better include?
I also saw abrade mentioned? Is it better than the bolts I have mainboard ATM?
I tested a build with 3x Nissa, Voice of Zendikar as per suggestions upthread. I never realy noticed until i played with the card how difficult it is to answer efficiently.
@Curdbros, How has treetop village worked out? I'm not sure about ETb-tapped lands in this deck.
Another random idea I had is to use something like Seasons Past maybe in conjunction with Boseiju post-board to refill our hand against grindy midrance and control matchups. Idon't know if it's worth exploring, or if there are better versions of that effect out there for us.
Hey guys, T&N player here. I looked at my various records i keep of (mediocre) FNM results and i've found that I am great against aggro decks, but I'm generally weak to both midrange (Shadow, GBx) and control (Ux, Lantern, H8bear). I'm too dependent on resolving a key spell and that spell sticking, and I do not bounce back well if they disrupt me in any way. What can I do/change in my 75 to be more resilient to disruption?
Hey guys, T&N player here. I looked at my various records i keep of (mediocre) FNM results and i've found that I am great against aggro decks, but I'm generally weak to both midrange (Shadow, GBx) and control (Ux, Lantern, H8bear). I'm too dependent on resolving a key spell and that spell sticking, and I do not bounce back well if they disrupt me in any way. What can I do/change in my 75 to be more resilient to disruption?
Hello all, has been a bit since i was here. Last FMN I went 2-3, losing to E-Tron (Close-Would have won the match if i'd topdecked a land), Storm and coco Spirits. Looking for advice in those MU's. Is there anything a T&N deck can do to stop storm or do we just have to race and hope to combo 1st? I also have had consistent trouble with Coco in general, any suggestions there?
I am running 2x Roast in my SB right now, to kill Tasigur, Angler, Reality Smasher, etc. Wondering if they should be Mb over bolt? Thoughts?
Also, what is your opinion of Obstinate Baloth? 2 right now and might want a 3rd.
In my lgs meta there is Etron, multiple LotV decks (including 8 rack which gives me a lot of trouble), and a restore balance guy. Is preserver good enough, and if not, any advice on the 8-rack matchup?
As a T&N player, I agree that Xenagos and Emmy are your best hits, and should not be removed from the deck. Xenagos is often not even a dead card. Even when he's not a creature, the ability is relevant for Garruk Wildspeaker beasts and other creatures to turn into serious beaters. Topdecking a Primetime when Xenagos is on board is often game.
I recently removed Oath of Nissa from my list due to the fact that it misses not only T&N but also Primal Command and Lightning Bolt, which lost me games when I needed one of those two to answer the opponent's board.
Iv'e found that being hyper-focused on the combo makes you too vulnerable to disruption. some sort of midrangier ground game needed when your opp is keeping you off 9 mana. For example, I have 3x Waling Ballista, 3x Lightning Bolt, 1x Thrun, and 1x Chamaeleon Colossus MB. You have some element of that with the acidic slime, scooze, and courser, but you may end up needing more, especially if your meta ends up being more focused on disruptive decks (Your meta seems less disruptive and more combo-focused than mine, so its possible that a slightly slower build like mine is incorrect. It's a meta call). That said, I've found Walking Ballista to be fantastic, and would recommend it or bolt or both against small creatures in Counters Company and Storm in your meta, and other decks like Burn, Affinity, and Hatebears.
I've been considering removing my Hornet Queen from SB, the decks I want it against are also the decks that don't let me get to 7 mana in the first place. Thoughts?
When you say you're in trouble, do you mean that the deck is just not good? some matchups are unwinnable? both?
Having not played your build, I don't know if the LD and green devotion are splitting the deck's focus too much, but it looks likely. Land destruction is a valuable tool in modern (I have 2x crumble to dust in sideboard), but there are some decks it's less good against, in which case your deck is less good. I don't know for sure if LD/UG devotion hybrid is viable, or should it be a sideboard strategy against certain decks that get greedy with mana?
If you take beast within out of mainboard, it should stay in your sideboard. Removal is a necessity in this format.
Your other proposed changes seem good, but greatly diminish the land destruction element of the deck if you wanted to keep playing that. The fact that you've already found those cards to be the weak end of the deck means that maybe the LD plan wasn't strong enough in the first place.
About your creatures, I would replace the frost titan. Unless there's a very good reason he's there, the fact that it isn't green and doesn't add relevant devotion is an issue. If you want something big, blue, and hard to kill as a 1-of, there's always simic sky swallower. There are probably other options I'm not thinking of at the moment too.
Nulltread gargantuan also seems pretty bad. Yes, its a 3 cmc 5/6, but it costs you a creature (in a deck without a lot of etb to abuse) and your next turn's draw. Wistful selkie, courser of kruphix, and kitchen finks are all much better 3-drops for this deck. And it's not that we have a problem getting to the mana we need for more expensive fatties.
I've played with 3-4 bolts in my tooth and nail MB for a while. Kills arbiter, vizier combo, delver, mirran crusader, swiftspear, non-etched champ stuff from affinity, pw's, and a bunch of other nasty stuff while staying with an easier Gr mana base. Weaker against shadow, etron, and other prime time decks (then again, push doesn't hit prime time or smasher either). In those matchups I board it out in favor of beast within. It's not quite as strong in the meta as push, but still viable without the third color splash.
That said, I want to add some ballistas to my list for more removal.
The matchup it would seem most obviously useful for is Merfolk, but I'm not sure we need it. I played a game against them earlier today in which I won by pumping 30+ mana into Kessig and going way over their top with primetime. They don't do a lot to prevent us from getting tons of devotion on board, and if our Nykthos/ Kessig doesn't eat a Spreading Seas, trampling over the top of them seems like a valid plan. This is just one game's anecdote where I didn't get seas'ed, so take of it what you will, but the matchup didn't seem too hard. Had I drawn a tooth and nail it would've been auto-win.
Against other decks, I'm not sure choke is good enough. It might be too slow/ineffectual to be of use against Grixis DS, and maybe too fragile against Ux control. Also, against Merfolk and Ux control running Spreading Seas, it stops our lands from untapping as well.
EDIT:
Rendroc:
While I'm talking about random games I played earlier today, I ran into a Prowling Serpopard green deck. I don't know whether it was actually a Nykthos deck or not, we only played 1 game and I didn't see the shrine. Was running Rhonas's Last Stand and Myr Superion as well as Serpopard. Serpopard seemed good at first glance, though it's ability wasn't really relevant. Rhonas's Last Stand was interesting and the drawback didn't seem to hurt that much, but my full playset of primetime matches well against random 5/4s and 5/6s. I won by stabilizing at low life behind a primetime, then looping primal command for a bunch of life and a second titan.
Personally I haven't played with choke. It's a good suggestion though, for merfolk as well as Ux control and Grixis DS lists that have a bunch of random islands. I dont know if it'd be good enough, but worth testing.
I used to run summoner's pact but took it out because it had potential to go very badly.
if you search up a fatty that dies to removal immediately and don't have enough mana after the next upkeep to cast someting else it's a pretty big tempo loss. Sometimes it would be a dead card if I was a bit light on mana because dying on upkeep after they wrathed my dorks isn't fun. however, in a build like yours that has a toolbox of creatures for specific situations, it could be worth including if you need more ways to tutor than you have with tooth and command.
I have been happy with Nissa VoZ. Yes, usually all it does is make chump-blockers, but those 0/1's are more relevant than they would seem. Good against edicts (though Lili is a bit out of favor right now) and also Thought-Knot Seer, Tasigur, Shadow, Goblin Guide don't have trample and can be shut down by Nissa while she threatens to Sphinx's Revelation them out of the game if they ignore her for too long. In the meantime, she sits there adding 2 devotion and distracting the opponent, giving me the time I need to set everything else up.
I do wish Nissa synergized with the rest of the deck a little bit more, beyond the two green mana symbols and being hard to kill, but she's the best I've found for the 3 cmc slot. I've tested Tireless Tracker extensively, but it is fragile and thus always felt like a win-more, in that games where it survived long enough to do anything I would have won anyway. That said, I would like some way of finding more CA in my 60. I haven't tried courser very much, just not a fan of giving my opponent information. Maybe it's good enough to be worth it?
I tested a little with Bow of Nylea for hard-to-kill devotion on a general utility card. Shenanigans with Ballista are loads of fun, but I think the card doesn't quite do enough to be a do-nothing on turn 2 or 3. Still might be good as a 1-of maybe?
I am (the last person here?) playing T&N. While it's a lot of fun it is also just annoyingly mediocre. After about 100 matches (FNM at a spikey lgs mostly), I'm at almost exactly 50% and wanting to do better. I feel like my list is not quite tuned and wondering if you guys have advice
Gr Tooth and Nail:
4 Arbor Elf
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Primeval Titan
4 Tooth and Nail
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Walking Ballista
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
1 Eternal Witness
2 Obstinate Baloth
1 Chameleon Colossus
2 Primal Command
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Windswept Heath
4 Stomping Ground
1 Treetop Village
7 Forest
2 Kozilek's Return
1 Roast
2 Abrade
1 Nature's Claim
1 World Breaker
2 Blood Moon
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Relic of Profenitus
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Ideas I've had:
The only MB card i really don't like is Primal Command. It just seems a little too clunky. I want to replace it with something less mana intensive, and preferably a permanent for devotion, but I'm not sure what.
I don't really like my sideboard. The biggest problem is that very few of my cards add devotion, so boarding dilutes my plan. However, individually I like all the cards except the roast, natures claim, and Thrun. That leaves 3 SB spaces open. Genesis Hydra? Engineered Explosives? More Blood Moon?
I also might want a white splash with a Temple Garden or a few birds in main, which lets me hardcast leyline easier, and gives me better sideboard options. EE on x = 3 or 4, Path, Dragonlord Dromoka?
I also saw abrade mentioned? Is it better than the bolts I have mainboard ATM?
@Curdbros, How has treetop village worked out? I'm not sure about ETb-tapped lands in this deck.
Another random idea I had is to use something like Seasons Past maybe in conjunction with Boseiju post-board to refill our hand against grindy midrance and control matchups. Idon't know if it's worth exploring, or if there are better versions of that effect out there for us.
3 Walking Ballista
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Chameleon Colossus
2 Obstinate Baloth
4 Primeval Titan
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Primal Command
4 Tooth and Nail
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Kessig wolf Run
4 Windswept Heath
4 Stomping Ground
8 Forest
2 Nature's Claim
2 Beast Within
2 Crumble to Dust
1 World Breaker
2 Roast
2 Firespout
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Do I need more witness/command? Cast triggers like Genesis Hydra? Blood moons in Sb? Silver bullet fatties like Ruric Thar, the Unbowed or Sylvan Primordial instead of 4x prime time?
3 Walking Ballista
4 Sylvan Caryatid
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Chameleon Colossus
2 Obstinate Baloth
4 Primeval Titan
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Primal Command
4 Tooth and Nail
4 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Kessig wolf Run
4 Windswept Heath
4 Stomping Ground
8 Forest
2 Nature's Claim
2 Beast Within
2 Crumble to Dust
1 World Breaker
2 Roast
2 Firespout
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Do I need more witness/command? Cast triggers like Genesis Hydra? Blood moons in Sb? Silver bullet fatties like Ruric Thar, the Unbowed or Sylvan Primordial instead of 4x prime time?
I am running 2x Roast in my SB right now, to kill Tasigur, Angler, Reality Smasher, etc. Wondering if they should be Mb over bolt? Thoughts?
Also, what is your opinion of Obstinate Baloth? 2 right now and might want a 3rd.
In my lgs meta there is Etron, multiple LotV decks (including 8 rack which gives me a lot of trouble), and a restore balance guy. Is preserver good enough, and if not, any advice on the 8-rack matchup?
As a T&N player, I agree that Xenagos and Emmy are your best hits, and should not be removed from the deck. Xenagos is often not even a dead card. Even when he's not a creature, the ability is relevant for Garruk Wildspeaker beasts and other creatures to turn into serious beaters. Topdecking a Primetime when Xenagos is on board is often game.
I recently removed Oath of Nissa from my list due to the fact that it misses not only T&N but also Primal Command and Lightning Bolt, which lost me games when I needed one of those two to answer the opponent's board.
Iv'e found that being hyper-focused on the combo makes you too vulnerable to disruption. some sort of midrangier ground game needed when your opp is keeping you off 9 mana. For example, I have 3x Waling Ballista, 3x Lightning Bolt, 1x Thrun, and 1x Chamaeleon Colossus MB. You have some element of that with the acidic slime, scooze, and courser, but you may end up needing more, especially if your meta ends up being more focused on disruptive decks (Your meta seems less disruptive and more combo-focused than mine, so its possible that a slightly slower build like mine is incorrect. It's a meta call). That said, I've found Walking Ballista to be fantastic, and would recommend it or bolt or both against small creatures in Counters Company and Storm in your meta, and other decks like Burn, Affinity, and Hatebears.
I've been considering removing my Hornet Queen from SB, the decks I want it against are also the decks that don't let me get to 7 mana in the first place. Thoughts?
When you say you're in trouble, do you mean that the deck is just not good? some matchups are unwinnable? both?
Having not played your build, I don't know if the LD and green devotion are splitting the deck's focus too much, but it looks likely. Land destruction is a valuable tool in modern (I have 2x crumble to dust in sideboard), but there are some decks it's less good against, in which case your deck is less good. I don't know for sure if LD/UG devotion hybrid is viable, or should it be a sideboard strategy against certain decks that get greedy with mana?
If you take beast within out of mainboard, it should stay in your sideboard. Removal is a necessity in this format.
Your other proposed changes seem good, but greatly diminish the land destruction element of the deck if you wanted to keep playing that. The fact that you've already found those cards to be the weak end of the deck means that maybe the LD plan wasn't strong enough in the first place.
About your creatures, I would replace the frost titan. Unless there's a very good reason he's there, the fact that it isn't green and doesn't add relevant devotion is an issue. If you want something big, blue, and hard to kill as a 1-of, there's always simic sky swallower. There are probably other options I'm not thinking of at the moment too.
Nulltread gargantuan also seems pretty bad. Yes, its a 3 cmc 5/6, but it costs you a creature (in a deck without a lot of etb to abuse) and your next turn's draw. Wistful selkie, courser of kruphix, and kitchen finks are all much better 3-drops for this deck. And it's not that we have a problem getting to the mana we need for more expensive fatties.
That said, I want to add some ballistas to my list for more removal.
The matchup it would seem most obviously useful for is Merfolk, but I'm not sure we need it. I played a game against them earlier today in which I won by pumping 30+ mana into Kessig and going way over their top with primetime. They don't do a lot to prevent us from getting tons of devotion on board, and if our Nykthos/ Kessig doesn't eat a Spreading Seas, trampling over the top of them seems like a valid plan. This is just one game's anecdote where I didn't get seas'ed, so take of it what you will, but the matchup didn't seem too hard. Had I drawn a tooth and nail it would've been auto-win.
Against other decks, I'm not sure choke is good enough. It might be too slow/ineffectual to be of use against Grixis DS, and maybe too fragile against Ux control. Also, against Merfolk and Ux control running Spreading Seas, it stops our lands from untapping as well.
EDIT:
Rendroc:
While I'm talking about random games I played earlier today, I ran into a Prowling Serpopard green deck. I don't know whether it was actually a Nykthos deck or not, we only played 1 game and I didn't see the shrine. Was running Rhonas's Last Stand and Myr Superion as well as Serpopard. Serpopard seemed good at first glance, though it's ability wasn't really relevant. Rhonas's Last Stand was interesting and the drawback didn't seem to hurt that much, but my full playset of primetime matches well against random 5/4s and 5/6s. I won by stabilizing at low life behind a primetime, then looping primal command for a bunch of life and a second titan.
Personally I haven't played with choke. It's a good suggestion though, for merfolk as well as Ux control and Grixis DS lists that have a bunch of random islands. I dont know if it'd be good enough, but worth testing.
I used to run summoner's pact but took it out because it had potential to go very badly.
if you search up a fatty that dies to removal immediately and don't have enough mana after the next upkeep to cast someting else it's a pretty big tempo loss. Sometimes it would be a dead card if I was a bit light on mana because dying on upkeep after they wrathed my dorks isn't fun. however, in a build like yours that has a toolbox of creatures for specific situations, it could be worth including if you need more ways to tutor than you have with tooth and command.