True, if you play very poorly RN could become a brick. Thats hardly a useful piece of the discussion though, since we are assuming terrible plays are not the basis for or against bans.
I don't see how having someone flash a loaming shaman up against you while you cast RN is an example of "poor play", I'm just pointing out the fairly obvious line that TN is not all that difficult to play against.
You don't have to remove the gy targets to brick RN either. If you clear their board of creatures it works too. That's doable at instant speed for virtually every colour.
RN was first banned when the amount of gy hate was distinctly subpar. I don't think it really fits under any of the current banning criteria. I think it's fairly reasonable to lobby for an unban.
Oh for sure Lou, but it was just an example. You could welder in your crypt or flash in a loaming shaman or just remove the targets any number of other(instant) ways. As long as there are no targets in the gy RN is a brick.
But GY hate does not stop RN. Sure you won't see that target come back out, but RN went back to the person's hand as part of the cost. You may have delayed it, but you stopped nothing.
And once again, there are answers to every card, some still need to be banned. The distinct lack of interaction with this card makes it really a ban directly in context of the games the RC wants to promote to me.
But it does stop RN if you time it right. Player A casts RN. Player B crypts player A's gy in response. RN sits in play like a brick.
I may try Shared Fate in my Zedru deck, not that I ran celestial dawn but I know from experience that not being allowed to play from your own deck can be really aggravating.
Well, unless you only have 2 mana, Reckless Bushwhacker is better than Goblin Bushwhacker when your hand is empty. You likely don't have anything to do with the extra mana, and he has an extra point of power on subsequent turns. This card is pretty solid.
Actually, not quite; re-read Reckless Bushwhacker. You need to pay its surge cost to get the effect, otherwise it is just a 2/1 haste for 3. If you want the pump for the team, you need to cast another spell before him to get the effect at all, making him pretty dead if your hand is empty and you draw it.
Mea Culpa. I didn't RTFC properly : / That is worse by a rather large margin. I don't think that makes him unplayable by any means (if a modern port of kuldotha red exists I wouldn't be surprised if they tested this guy out e.g.), but I'm not exactly fired up about him.
The only thing I can think of is maybe legacy goblins? Off a goblin warchief his surge cost is only R, which is reasonable though the haste is now superlative. Probably not good enough for the offensive bonus really.
I guess this could do work, it's just that I have a hard time justifying running it in just about anything. I'd rather run Sylvan Library or Harmonize or virtually anything else that actually gets me cards. This is really slow and subject to disruption too. I guess it does fly under the radar though.
For reals though, as bad as Apocalypse Chime is it seems to me that it might actually have more relevance in a random gamestate than this...
Primal Order actually has value in EDH, though. (Seriously, think about how many decks run shocklands or City of Brass or utility lands.)
If only Chime worked like *****ty in a Bottle.
kinda why I mentioned it. There aren't many cards from homelands worth running period, which was really moxnix's point.Feroz's Ban comes to mind though it's petty costly for such a minor tax. Serra's Aviary? Sucks that it's global though. Irini Sengir as a hate commander vs a G and W heavy meta?
Really Memory Lapse is the best thing homelands brought us.
Yes, and that can all be policed by the players. The banlist isn't needed.
Well then, why don't you tell your playgroup that and make a pile of house unbans? Let me know the (total lack of) results, kay?
My main playgroup is a constantly changing group of players at a store.
This is why the banlist is absolutely horrible. Now there are a few arbitrary bans that I can't get rid of. It doesn't stop unfun strategies at all, it doesn't make the format more fun, but now there are a bunch of cards that people can't play with.
The banlist is worse than nothing.
Just out of curiosity, what cards are on the banlist that you really want to play with?
You mentioned that the absence of a banlist would allow players to police themselves, but your situation doesn't seem ideal for that. You mentioned that you cannot unban cards because your playgroup constantly changes. How would the players be able to police themselves if the group is constantly changing? Even if you get 3 people together than have determined that they should in no way play Channel, what stops the 4th player from adhering to that if they aren't part of the "normal" group? Or, what about Strip Mine, Crucible of Worlds, and Fastbond to keep everyone off of lands?
It would seem that if you are in a scenario that allows for what are effectively custom bans (as a result of players policing themselves) then it also allows for custom unbans. If you can't do one, it seems like it would be difficult to do the other.
Even when we agree on cut throat decks for a particular edh game I can't play these cards, and those games are nothing but the most unfair things you can manage.
Basically even with the idea of player policing I still can't make these cards legal. I can always say "hey can you play a weaker deck", but "I have these banned cards" never goes over well.
Fastbond and balance have no place in this format. At. All. I really want the banned as a commander rule back so we could play with braids/rofellos/erayo again but as that's gone it's understandable that they are banned. Braids and erayo were stupid oppressive and Rof was ridiculous. I regularly stomped my playgroup with him by the 4th or 5th turn before he got the banhammer again. Granted that was when primetime was legal but it was still unfair.
I can see an argument that gifts be unbanned(not that I favour that line of discussion) because Intuition is around. Recurring Nightmare can probably come off and not be terrible - it's been kept up with as far as gy hate is concerned.
And sundering titan just played poorly with the vision of the format. Not that I minded it but it did leave a sour taste in a lot of players mouths. But I don't think it should be unbanned - especially if you play with a shifting group because of that bad taste.
So what are people's thoughts on Deadeye Navigator? There have been a few people at my LGS calling for its' ban, and while I can see some fairly mean things you can do with it (hello Draining Whelk), I've never seen a deck built to consistently combo around it without already being focused about reusing ETB effects anyway. I realize I should probably take what they say with a grain of salt since they also want Cyclonic Rift, Capsize, and Memnarch banned, but it'd be nice to get some more input. Do other people think that these are problem cards, or should I take these complaints as people just upset that they lost to them?
Eh, Deadeye is fine. There are a ton of ways to answer it and it needs something else on the board(and open mana as well) to actually do anything. On an empty board state it's a terrible topdeck too.
It sounds like your friends have a bit of a problem with recurring answers if they can't handle Capsize, Memnarch and rift. I'm surprised they're not complaining about more cards really.
As for the call to unban moxes, really? I know it's mostly facetious but c'mon - sol ring/mana crypt bring nowhere near the level of crazy brokenness that the moxes would. First turn Sliver Overlord? No thanks.
You can take my Sol Rings when you pry them out of my cold, dead hands...
But seriously, commander is the only format I get to play with the damn things. They're almost unplayable in the only other format they're legal in(for reals, workshop lists run them but that's really it) and it's not like my collection is good enough for vintage anyways(I do own two workshops but no other power). Commander is my only viable option.
As for another fruitless discussion - how does everyone feel about Libraries? I know they run against the "perceived barrier to entry", and they'd be an autoinclude in anything 2 coloured or less(and possibly 3 colour or less), but really is it that powerful in a singleton 99 card format? Sure the price would rocket up but they'd probably settle at tabernacle levels anyways and those are legal. Any thoughts?
Obviously, you should EOT sacrifice Static Orb to Trading Post to draw a card, and use Academy Ruins to put Static Orb on top of your deck, untap all your lands, and then re-cast it to make your opponents oh-so happy.
That sounds decent until you realize it's costing you 7 mana per turn. I guess if you have 9+ lands out it's okay.
I once had a game (using the same deck) where every turn cycle for five turns, the player to my left would attempt to either cast or reanimate Stonehewer Giant, and I would regrowth my Cryptic Command using Codex Shredder, followed by recurring my Codex Shredder.
Horrible use of my mana resources, but I wasn't about to let the Giant stick, when Cryptic was my only removal available at that time that would work on it. The Stonehewer guy scooped in frustration, though, so I guess it was worth it.
Holy crap why did I never know that Codex Shredder was a thing? My goblin welders have always needed a recursion option... and speaking of welders they go good with static orb too...
mASTERsELF you're not anywhere close to TX are you? I've been trying to get 1v1 EDH to catch on here as well.
And I do play Braids in my Duel Commander deck, though she is not the commander.
what does "TX" mean?
sorry i can't follow the discussion - english is not native to me
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regarding duel commander
-braids in a deck can be a good suport card for decks like anafenza.
-braids as commander was ok before the new mulligan when played as ASAP variant.
now thats been to inconsitent and as midrange version she will never live up to her full potential.
I'm guessing Texas?
As far as Braids as commander - Give your group some heads up and let them bring their own decks to compete. I'd be cool with braids as long as you're cool with Rofellos...
Had a chat with Toby about this (he happens to be sitting right next to me). We are comfortable for the time being with <> being easier to generate in Commander than other formats (because of rule 4). For example, if you're in mono-green and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth is on the battlefield, you can tap a Forest to generate <>. It's a little loophole-ish, but hardly the kind of thing that will be dangerous to the format.
Well there goes the idea that rule 4 will be abolished. Good.
I don't see how having someone flash a loaming shaman up against you while you cast RN is an example of "poor play", I'm just pointing out the fairly obvious line that TN is not all that difficult to play against.
You don't have to remove the gy targets to brick RN either. If you clear their board of creatures it works too. That's doable at instant speed for virtually every colour.
RN was first banned when the amount of gy hate was distinctly subpar. I don't think it really fits under any of the current banning criteria. I think it's fairly reasonable to lobby for an unban.
But it does stop RN if you time it right. Player A casts RN. Player B crypts player A's gy in response. RN sits in play like a brick.
The only thing I can think of is maybe legacy goblins? Off a goblin warchief his surge cost is only R, which is reasonable though the haste is now superlative. Probably not good enough for the offensive bonus really.
kinda why I mentioned it. There aren't many cards from homelands worth running period, which was really moxnix's point.Feroz's Ban comes to mind though it's petty costly for such a minor tax. Serra's Aviary? Sucks that it's global though. Irini Sengir as a hate commander vs a G and W heavy meta?
Really Memory Lapse is the best thing homelands brought us.
Hey man, at least Apocalypse Chime gets rid of those pesky Primal Orders and Willow Priestessess.
For reals though, as bad as Apocalypse Chime is it seems to me that it might actually have more relevance in a random gamestate than this...
Fastbond and balance have no place in this format. At. All. I really want the banned as a commander rule back so we could play with braids/rofellos/erayo again but as that's gone it's understandable that they are banned. Braids and erayo were stupid oppressive and Rof was ridiculous. I regularly stomped my playgroup with him by the 4th or 5th turn before he got the banhammer again. Granted that was when primetime was legal but it was still unfair.
I can see an argument that gifts be unbanned(not that I favour that line of discussion) because Intuition is around. Recurring Nightmare can probably come off and not be terrible - it's been kept up with as far as gy hate is concerned.
And sundering titan just played poorly with the vision of the format. Not that I minded it but it did leave a sour taste in a lot of players mouths. But I don't think it should be unbanned - especially if you play with a shifting group because of that bad taste.
Eh, Deadeye is fine. There are a ton of ways to answer it and it needs something else on the board(and open mana as well) to actually do anything. On an empty board state it's a terrible topdeck too.
It sounds like your friends have a bit of a problem with recurring answers if they can't handle Capsize, Memnarch and rift. I'm surprised they're not complaining about more cards really.
As for the call to unban moxes, really? I know it's mostly facetious but c'mon - sol ring/mana crypt bring nowhere near the level of crazy brokenness that the moxes would. First turn Sliver Overlord? No thanks.
But seriously, commander is the only format I get to play with the damn things. They're almost unplayable in the only other format they're legal in(for reals, workshop lists run them but that's really it) and it's not like my collection is good enough for vintage anyways(I do own two workshops but no other power). Commander is my only viable option.
As for another fruitless discussion - how does everyone feel about Libraries? I know they run against the "perceived barrier to entry", and they'd be an autoinclude in anything 2 coloured or less(and possibly 3 colour or less), but really is it that powerful in a singleton 99 card format? Sure the price would rocket up but they'd probably settle at tabernacle levels anyways and those are legal. Any thoughts?
Holy crap why did I never know that Codex Shredder was a thing? My goblin welders have always needed a recursion option... and speaking of welders they go good with static orb too...
I'm guessing Texas?
As far as Braids as commander - Give your group some heads up and let them bring their own decks to compete. I'd be cool with braids as long as you're cool with Rofellos...
Well there goes the idea that rule 4 will be abolished. Good.