Sideboard plans
(excuse the abbreviations, these are just copied and pasted from my notes)
Temur/4c
-3 Courier, -1 Mage, -1 Crasher, -1 Shock (maybe take out the Abrades if I go bigger with Glorybringers)
+2 Mentor, +2 Abrade, +2 Chandra’s Defeat (Maybe Glorybringer, TOD)
Sultai
-2 Courier (on the draw), -2 Mage (on the play), -2 Zev, -1 Crasher, -2 Ferocidon, -2 Spray, -1 Shock
+2 Mentor, +2 Abrade, +2 TOD, +2 GB, +2 Harvester
I Appreciate the Sideboard strategy. I did notice I needed to work on properly sideboarding for this deck during my PPTQ. Let us definitely know how this deck runs, I am curious to see how the 2 Magma Sprays MB do and how the Cannonade does in the SB. I'll definitely be taking this version for a spin. I also agree think dropping Zev to 2 is the correct play given Zev's interaction with Ferocidon (Even though many times opponents miss triggers).
This is very similar to Daniel Fournier's 9-1 PT Ixalan list. I think the only difference I see in the main is 2 Crasher/3 Ferocidon where he had 1/4.
I'm thinking of running something close to that list as well, but have gone to 3 Shock and 2 Magma Spray in the main (may swap the numbers), which allows me to run 2 Defeat in the side where he didn't. One thing that I've noticed though, is the differing opinions on how to side against Temur/4c. I've seen some articles say to bring in Harvester, Glorybringer, Chandra, (and taking out Abrade), but others say to not try to "out-mid-range" them, and stay aggressive, bringing in Harsh Mentor, Chandra's Defeat, and extra Abrades. Which is a better plan?
Also, I get that Blazing Volley is one sided, but is it not worth trying Fiery Cannonade instead? It seems a little more versatile than Volley, becoming (among other things) a board wipe in the mirror.
I'm leaning more and more on Fournier's list because I do believe it is wrong to entirely cut out Crasher and I honestly believe Mentor's at 2 in the main is excellent in Energy/Vehicle heavy metas. I'll test out Cannonade, I just don't know how I feel about 3 mana instant compared to a 1 mana sorcery. The other thing is Cannonade doesn't hit Taker but Volley does. Again It will be a test in the SB. I also decided I'd try a 1 of Magma Spray in the SB. It is excellent against the mirror/Scrounger.
Late game Blackmail is stronger though. I've found many opponents begin holding things like lands or other dead cards, for as long as they can later game, which often don't get hit by a Thoughtseize. Whereas, Blackmail isn't limited to "nonland", like Thoughtseize and isn't limited by CMC, like an Inquisition of Kozilek.
That said, I haven't been running Blackmail in my list because late game, you should have a Raven's Crime in the GY or a Lili on the board to have recurring threats to get rid of any cards the opponent has in hand. Thus, a Thoughtseize or Inquisition in the beginning is more valuable, letting you see the whole hand, as opposed to what your opponents wants you to see, if you're playing Blackmail.
Well sure Blackmail is definitely a stronger card late game; however, you nailed the reasoning why I believe Thoughtseize is an overall better choice than Blackmail. At the end of the game you'd hopefully have either a Raven's Crime or a Lili on board. Thus, your discard is already strong. Thoughtseize early game is an incredible tool as it enables not only to get rid of your opponent's strongest threat against you, but it allows you knowledge of how to playout your turns most effectively. Noticing they have Artifacts may want you to leave Wrench Mind to be discarded by Lili or knowing if they are on Tron to drop a Smallpox on them.
After thinking for a bit, I came to the conclusion that these changes to the deck:
MB:
-1 Ahn Crop Crasher
+1 Ferocidon
SB:
-1 Ferocidon
+1 Blazing Volley
I can definitely see Blazing Volley be teched in against Mardu Vehicles as well. I'll definitely test it as a 1 of in the SB. I just see Ferocidon being so much effective as a 3 of in the MB and Crasher just seems to be sided out most the time, but I will still keep 2.
This will be list going forward this week. I'll test it out Friday and see how it goes.
Ben Starks just played himself into the Top 8 with his variation Big Red version. This is very interesting build suited to beat the Metagame. Note, it only sports 1 copy of Hazoret... Yes 1.
But I wonder if the Dual Shots were there also for the tokens matchups or would they bring it against other opponents (and if so, in which matchups?)
From my understanding, I believe it was put in for the token match-up. The commentary behind the deck was that Stark's list was adjusted to purely face the expected Energy match-up in Atlanta and as you can tell it thrived significantly. If you also take a look, several Ramunap Red decks did well and placed in the top 32 including at least 3 that I can remember being in the top 16.
The top 2 decks in the standard portion of the pro tour were both Ramunap Red. One list ran 4 ferocidon. The other ran 3. Like I said, if you sideboard a car in 90 percent of your matches there is nothing wrong with mainboatding it. I am personally happy to see it more than any card beside hazoret. Maybe just as much. There are dozens of lists that chose this route.
Well sure, the top 2 lists that ran had 3+ Ferocidon and 0-4 Crasher, and Crasher has definitely dipped in my opinion than before; however, I still believe it is worthy of playing at least 2-3 in the MB Pre-board. The effectiveness it can have at putting through early damage is great and is essential on the aggro plan. Of course post-board the strategy for red changes a bit and that is why it is removed, but I still believe it is an effective card.
I would never cut crasher completely. It’s truly an amazing card. But cutting a Kari Zev and one crasher or abrade isn’t so bad
Crasher dies to shock. I wouldn't call that "amazing."
Every card we play besides hazoret and Kari Zev dies to shock. We just started running ferocidon. I’ve been running two blazing volley sideboard for tokens. One red mana deal one damage to each creature opponent controls. Matchup was tough for me. Been better now.
What he is meaning is that Crasher being a 3 drop dying to a 1 mana instant is not very good for our explosive strategy. Wasting a turn 3 can be troublesome as I have found turn 3-5 to be very key for us. I'd also like that every other creature we have that does die to Shock has upside other than Crasher. Mage can Prowess in response, Khenra gets Eternalized, Courier can be sac'd for a new hand...
I'm still not completely sold on cutting Crasher but I think I am going to go down to 2 in the MB and play a 3rd Copy of Ferocidon. This will open a flex slot in the SB for possibly Blazing Volley for Tokens.
Thoughts on replacing Funeral Charm with Blackmail?
Blackmail lets us see part of their hand AND it allows us to discard a land card.
I keep finding myself dissatisfied with Funeral Charm, but perhaps I'm missing something or I just haven't seen the right scenario for it.
The thing that i enjoy about Funeral Charm outside the 3 modes is it is a 1 mana INSTANT which majority of the time you are playing to either kill/buff a creature or discarding a card. If you choose to discard, you can activate during your opponent's draw step if they have nothing in their hand. It can keep them hellbent for a turn or so which can be vital in some match-ups if you get there.
never tried blackmail, but funeral charm seems too solid! i don't think i wanna cut any of the 2 copies i play..every mode is useful (sure, the swampwalk only in rare cases), but it the +2-1 has been way better than i thought, it lets you trade a mutavault for big creatures like TKS,and is always unexpected because not every 8 rack deck plays them.
A question : about graveyard hate, is there a unique sentence on which is better between leyline of the void and nihil spellbomb?
Personally, I've found more success in Leyline of the Void. The ability to auto drop it from your hand on turn 1 is very relevant against Dredge. Allowing you to drop Leyline and still go turn 1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition is much better than just playing a Nihil Spellbomb in my opinion. Essentially if you don't mulligan into your Leyline you are dead period.
I replaced a thoughtseize with one copy of blackmail, and never looked back
I personally believe Blackmail is more of a flex slot and weaker thoughtseize. I understand not taking the damage, but to get the entire content of their hand is much more valuable than only knowing 2 card after discard.
Ben Starks just played himself into the Top 8 with his variation Big Red version. This is very interesting build suited to beat the Metagame. Note, it only sports 1 copy of Hazoret... Yes 1.
However, Warsaw Grand Prix had no Ramunaps in the top8.
It is quite interesting as 2 of the lists also were pretty much stock lists as well. I still don't think we have a definitive route right now which is correct. I did see MB'd Chandra's as well, I just find them to be a bit too slow right off the bat and believe 2 Chandra's SB is the correct play.
Thoughts on replacing Funeral Charm with Blackmail?
Blackmail lets us see part of their hand AND it allows us to discard a land card.
I keep finding myself dissatisfied with Funeral Charm, but perhaps I'm missing something or I just haven't seen the right scenario for it.
The thing that i enjoy about Funeral Charm outside the 3 modes is it is a 1 mana INSTANT which majority of the time you are playing to either kill/buff a creature or discarding a card. If you choose to discard, you can activate during your opponent's draw step if they have nothing in their hand. It can keep them hellbent for a turn or so which can be vital in some match-ups if you get there.
never tried blackmail, but funeral charm seems too solid! i don't think i wanna cut any of the 2 copies i play..every mode is useful (sure, the swampwalk only in rare cases), but it the +2-1 has been way better than i thought, it lets you trade a mutavault for big creatures like TKS,and is always unexpected because not every 8 rack deck plays them.
A question : about graveyard hate, is there a unique sentence on which is better between leyline of the void and nihil spellbomb?
Personally, I've found more success in Leyline of the Void. The ability to auto drop it from your hand on turn 1 is very relevant against Dredge. Allowing you to drop Leyline and still go turn 1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition is much better than just playing a Nihil Spellbomb in my opinion. Essentially if you don't mulligan into your Leyline you are dead period.
What do you guys think about Defense Grid as sb tech or mb tech for decks that like to wait until EoT to cast spells on our turn?
Doesn't that basically negate the use of Fatal Pushes, Dismember, Collective Brutality, and even Funeral Charm? You basically are taking away our removal package.
So after a pretty long PPTQ, I am here to give out my tournament report. I was able to go 3-2 and missed out on top 8 due to the typical MTG Variance as you will see. The list I ran is posted above if you'd like to refer to it, I was able to find the missing pieces and now have a complete version that I am happy with.
Match 1: R/B Aggro (2-1) Win
Game 1 I went off on the typical explosive start with Courier into Zev into Crasher and my opponent was drawing nothing but lands. Not much to say about this game other than the typical if you are behing against an Aggro deck you will lose. In Game 2, I found myself stuck on 2 Mana for 3-4 turns (This was a constant problem and I am running 24 lands). I tried stabilizing with 2 drops but nothing went my way. Game 3 was a very weird one. My opponent kept his hand with 3 Hazorets and I drew nothing but land. I was able to finally draw into creatures, and my opponent misplayed by sacing his Hazoret to make his Yahenni indestructible in response to a Shock, but I had Soul-Scar Mage in play. After that it went downhill for him.
Match 2: Sultai Energy (0-2) Loss
Nothing to report here, I got mana-screwed both games and was stuck on 2 mana for 5 turns. GG Opponent
Match 3: Sultai Energy (2-1) Win
This was probably the best match I had all day. 3 Very good games, where I had brought down my opponent to 5 or less life. Game 1 on the draw, went back and forth until he was able to Hostage Taker my Hazoret. I had Ramunap active and was able to get him down to 5, needed a Strike but topped into a Ahn Crop Crasher and did not have enough lands to do both. Game 2, I took the play and just exploded. I was able to drop Harsh Mentor and kept dwindling him down until he couldn't do much. He forgot about my Ramunap Ruins and activated/crewed a Harvester and on the stack before damage responded with Ruins for lethal. I was at 8 life at the end of the game. Game 3 I just exploded as well on the draw and my opponent just couldn't keep up by me going wide. By the end of the game I had Hazoret, Zev, and Khenra in play with me at 20 life.
Match 4: Mardu Vehicles (0-2) Loss
This match-up I thought I was favored, but I was not very familiar with the deck. In Game one I dropped him down to 2 with a topdeck hope that my courier on that turn had drawn me 1 of my 7 possible burn spells, but nope. Game 2 I mulligan down to 6 with 1 land and get stuck on one land for 5 turns...
Match 5: R/B Aggro (2-0) Win
Well at this point I was out of Top-8 Contentions due to Tie-Breakers; however, we were playing out for prizes. In both games I exploded with burn in my hand. Opponent played some vehicles but I responded with Abrades and had both a Mentor and Ferocidon on the field. There really wasn't much my opponent could do and the match was over within 20 minutes of the round starting.
Overall, I felt the deck performed really well even with a field that consisted mainly of Sultai Energy. I wasn't happy about the variance but that is MTG for everyone. Still debating about what to do with Crasher as I seemed to be siding him out constantly for other needs. I will state Harsh Mentor did a TON of work for me, there was only once I drew him which I was not happy with the draw, but he had won me at least 2-3 of my games. My opponents weren't able to get rid of him and his ability had forced my opponents to take unnecessary damage to try and put pressure on me. I was very happy with the 2 in the Main!
I'll be heading to a PPTQ tomorrow morning sporting this list. Unfortunately I was unable to pick up a 3rd and 4th copy of Ferocidon (and I feel this is going to cost me dearly) and a 3rd copy of Harsh Mentor. As a result I'll be SBing 1 Magma Sprays and 2 Sweltering Suns against Tokens and the mirror.
Another interesting article made it on to CFB. This time its new Hall of Fame member Martin Juza with his deck list and board plan. The biggest thing that jumps out to me is his statements about how Harsh Mentor is not in his deck.
One thing I would like to stress is: Do not play Harsh Mentor. If this is your plan against Whirler Virtuoso or opposite Aethersphere Harvesters, then you are doing it wrong. While the ability might seem relevant in some games, the 2/2 body does absolutely nothing and it’s a horrible topdeck without any immediate impact on the game.
Is this a fair statement, given that all the other well performing lists had some number of Mentors in?
I will say that statement is fair; however, I think Juza is excluding the conception on why we AT LEAST should have 2 Mentors in the SB. The abundance of decks running non-mana based abilities (Scarab God, Cub, Virtuoso, Utility Lands, Etc) is just so prevalent that we should be playing Mentor. I agree the top deck is not fantastic, but so is drawing a Soul-Scar Mage?
In the end, I think it is fair to say that, but I disagree with it completely.
Well sure, if you noticed Rolfe's list which is the list I currently run, I'm at 3 Crashers MB right now. I think 3 is the perfect number right now for pre-board games.
I Appreciate the Sideboard strategy. I did notice I needed to work on properly sideboarding for this deck during my PPTQ. Let us definitely know how this deck runs, I am curious to see how the 2 Magma Sprays MB do and how the Cannonade does in the SB. I'll definitely be taking this version for a spin. I also agree think dropping Zev to 2 is the correct play given Zev's interaction with Ferocidon (Even though many times opponents miss triggers).
I'm leaning more and more on Fournier's list because I do believe it is wrong to entirely cut out Crasher and I honestly believe Mentor's at 2 in the main is excellent in Energy/Vehicle heavy metas. I'll test out Cannonade, I just don't know how I feel about 3 mana instant compared to a 1 mana sorcery. The other thing is Cannonade doesn't hit Taker but Volley does. Again It will be a test in the SB. I also decided I'd try a 1 of Magma Spray in the SB. It is excellent against the mirror/Scrounger.
Well sure Blackmail is definitely a stronger card late game; however, you nailed the reasoning why I believe Thoughtseize is an overall better choice than Blackmail. At the end of the game you'd hopefully have either a Raven's Crime or a Lili on board. Thus, your discard is already strong. Thoughtseize early game is an incredible tool as it enables not only to get rid of your opponent's strongest threat against you, but it allows you knowledge of how to playout your turns most effectively. Noticing they have Artifacts may want you to leave Wrench Mind to be discarded by Lili or knowing if they are on Tron to drop a Smallpox on them.
MB:
-1 Ahn Crop Crasher
+1 Ferocidon
SB:
-1 Ferocidon
+1 Blazing Volley
I can definitely see Blazing Volley be teched in against Mardu Vehicles as well. I'll definitely test it as a 1 of in the SB. I just see Ferocidon being so much effective as a 3 of in the MB and Crasher just seems to be sided out most the time, but I will still keep 2.
This will be list going forward this week. I'll test it out Friday and see how it goes.
2x Ahn-Crop Crasher
4x Bomat Courier
4x Earthshaker Khenra
2x Harsh Mentor
4x Hazoret the Fervent
3x Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
3x Rampaging Ferocidon
4x Soul-Scar Mage
14x Mountain
4x Ramunap Ruins
2x Scavenger Grounds
4x Sunscorched Desert
Instant (10)
2x Abrade
4x Lightning Strike
4x Shock
2x Abrade
2x Aethersphere Harvester
1x Blazing Volley
2x Chandra's Defeat
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Glorybringer
1x Harsh Mentor
1x Rampaging Ferocidon
2x Pia Nalaar
From my understanding, I believe it was put in for the token match-up. The commentary behind the deck was that Stark's list was adjusted to purely face the expected Energy match-up in Atlanta and as you can tell it thrived significantly. If you also take a look, several Ramunap Red decks did well and placed in the top 32 including at least 3 that I can remember being in the top 16.
What he is meaning is that Crasher being a 3 drop dying to a 1 mana instant is not very good for our explosive strategy. Wasting a turn 3 can be troublesome as I have found turn 3-5 to be very key for us. I'd also like that every other creature we have that does die to Shock has upside other than Crasher. Mage can Prowess in response, Khenra gets Eternalized, Courier can be sac'd for a new hand...
I'm still not completely sold on cutting Crasher but I think I am going to go down to 2 in the MB and play a 3rd Copy of Ferocidon. This will open a flex slot in the SB for possibly Blazing Volley for Tokens.
I personally believe Blackmail is more of a flex slot and weaker thoughtseize. I understand not taking the damage, but to get the entire content of their hand is much more valuable than only knowing 2 card after discard.
It is quite interesting as 2 of the lists also were pretty much stock lists as well. I still don't think we have a definitive route right now which is correct. I did see MB'd Chandra's as well, I just find them to be a bit too slow right off the bat and believe 2 Chandra's SB is the correct play.
The thing that i enjoy about Funeral Charm outside the 3 modes is it is a 1 mana INSTANT which majority of the time you are playing to either kill/buff a creature or discarding a card. If you choose to discard, you can activate during your opponent's draw step if they have nothing in their hand. It can keep them hellbent for a turn or so which can be vital in some match-ups if you get there.
Personally, I've found more success in Leyline of the Void. The ability to auto drop it from your hand on turn 1 is very relevant against Dredge. Allowing you to drop Leyline and still go turn 1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition is much better than just playing a Nihil Spellbomb in my opinion. Essentially if you don't mulligan into your Leyline you are dead period.
Doesn't that basically negate the use of Fatal Pushes, Dismember, Collective Brutality, and even Funeral Charm? You basically are taking away our removal package.
Match 1: R/B Aggro (2-1) Win
Game 1 I went off on the typical explosive start with Courier into Zev into Crasher and my opponent was drawing nothing but lands. Not much to say about this game other than the typical if you are behing against an Aggro deck you will lose. In Game 2, I found myself stuck on 2 Mana for 3-4 turns (This was a constant problem and I am running 24 lands). I tried stabilizing with 2 drops but nothing went my way. Game 3 was a very weird one. My opponent kept his hand with 3 Hazorets and I drew nothing but land. I was able to finally draw into creatures, and my opponent misplayed by sacing his Hazoret to make his Yahenni indestructible in response to a Shock, but I had Soul-Scar Mage in play. After that it went downhill for him.
Match 2: Sultai Energy (0-2) Loss
Nothing to report here, I got mana-screwed both games and was stuck on 2 mana for 5 turns. GG Opponent
Match 3: Sultai Energy (2-1) Win
This was probably the best match I had all day. 3 Very good games, where I had brought down my opponent to 5 or less life. Game 1 on the draw, went back and forth until he was able to Hostage Taker my Hazoret. I had Ramunap active and was able to get him down to 5, needed a Strike but topped into a Ahn Crop Crasher and did not have enough lands to do both. Game 2, I took the play and just exploded. I was able to drop Harsh Mentor and kept dwindling him down until he couldn't do much. He forgot about my Ramunap Ruins and activated/crewed a Harvester and on the stack before damage responded with Ruins for lethal. I was at 8 life at the end of the game. Game 3 I just exploded as well on the draw and my opponent just couldn't keep up by me going wide. By the end of the game I had Hazoret, Zev, and Khenra in play with me at 20 life.
Match 4: Mardu Vehicles (0-2) Loss
This match-up I thought I was favored, but I was not very familiar with the deck. In Game one I dropped him down to 2 with a topdeck hope that my courier on that turn had drawn me 1 of my 7 possible burn spells, but nope. Game 2 I mulligan down to 6 with 1 land and get stuck on one land for 5 turns...
Match 5: R/B Aggro (2-0) Win
Well at this point I was out of Top-8 Contentions due to Tie-Breakers; however, we were playing out for prizes. In both games I exploded with burn in my hand. Opponent played some vehicles but I responded with Abrades and had both a Mentor and Ferocidon on the field. There really wasn't much my opponent could do and the match was over within 20 minutes of the round starting.
Overall, I felt the deck performed really well even with a field that consisted mainly of Sultai Energy. I wasn't happy about the variance but that is MTG for everyone. Still debating about what to do with Crasher as I seemed to be siding him out constantly for other needs. I will state Harsh Mentor did a TON of work for me, there was only once I drew him which I was not happy with the draw, but he had won me at least 2-3 of my games. My opponents weren't able to get rid of him and his ability had forced my opponents to take unnecessary damage to try and put pressure on me. I was very happy with the 2 in the Main!
3x Ahn-Crop Crasher
4x Bomat Courier
4x Earthshaker Khenra
2x Harsh Mentor
4x Hazoret the Fervent
3x Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
2x Rampaging Ferocidon
4x Soul-Scar Mage
4x Ramunap Ruins
2x Scavenger Grounds
4x Sunscorched Desert
2x Abrade
4x Lightning Strike
4x Shock
2x Aethersphere Harvester
2x Chandra's Defeat
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Glorybringer
2x Sweltering Suns
2x Pia Nalaar
1x Magma Spray
I will say that statement is fair; however, I think Juza is excluding the conception on why we AT LEAST should have 2 Mentors in the SB. The abundance of decks running non-mana based abilities (Scarab God, Cub, Virtuoso, Utility Lands, Etc) is just so prevalent that we should be playing Mentor. I agree the top deck is not fantastic, but so is drawing a Soul-Scar Mage?
In the end, I think it is fair to say that, but I disagree with it completely.