In terms of your list, how has running 8 mana dorks and fewer two drops felt?
Thoughts on Eternal Witness?
It's also probably difficult to quantify, but have you noticed anything moving from 21 to 22 lands?
-So far, I like it. After Thalia's Lieutenant, I'm really not excited about any of our two-drops. I could definitely see cutting one Avacyn's Pilgrim, but I'm not sure what I would replace it with. Probably a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or move the second copy of Retreat to Coralhelm to the main deck.
-Most of the time I cast Collected Company, Eternal Witness is the card I want to see. I don't want too many clogging my hand, which is why I choose to run three. I just noticed that rhymed... my bad. It stays. While the 2/1 body is lacking, the ability to recur lands, creatures, or spells is simply more powerful than most of the other things we could be doing.
-Thalia, Heretic Cathar is a card I have been largely unimpressed with. I want my three drops to either be relatively hard to deal with (Knight of the Reliquary, Mirran Crusader) or provide immediate value (Eternal Witness, Reflector Mage). Thalia, Heretic Cathar does neither, unfortunately. While I do like the synergies three-drop Thalia has with cards like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Reflector Mage, I don't think it does enough unless you get to cast it turn two on the play. The other three drops have a better chance at stabilizing when we are behind, as well. If the Goryo's Vengeance/Through the Breach style decks pick up, Thalia, Heretic Cathar becomes better.
-The move to 22 lands was because I really wanted a copy of Gavony Township in the list and felt like none of the other lands should be removed due to Retreat to Coralhelm. This also goes back to having the eight mana dorks - they are less of a liability if we have a way to buff them. The utility lands and Eternal Witness also make flooding out less of a liability in general. You are right about it being difficult to quantify, as 21 vs 22 lands is a pretty minimal thing statistically.
---As an aside, I do have a bias when it comes to Eternal Witness. It was a buddy of mine's favorite card. He was a great Magic player that had seen success at the higher levels of competition. He committed suicide a few years ago and now his parents host a memorial tournament every spring that benefits suicide prevention organizations. The Hunter Burton Memorial Tournament is a great event for a great cause. If anyone wants information about this outstanding event that takes place in the Dallas/Fort Worth area of Texas, let me know and I will provide it.
Have you considered using a split of Renegade Rallier and Eternal Witness ?
I have tried Renegade Rallier before in a shell with Knight of the Reliquary. I actually think the two-drops are the weakest part of the humans deck, to be honest. I found I was happier returning a fetchland in the early game for ramp than anything else, which was definitely good, but I always thought it wasn't making the best use of the revolt ability. I do like Rallier, quite a bit, but I think it is best suited in decks that have better targets (Voice of Resurgence, Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze come to mind). Eternal Witness is not as explosive, but I value being able to recur Path to Exile, Collected Company, or one of our sideboard instants more than the explosiveness. Additionally, our best creatures are at three mana, and Rallier can't recur those. After sideboarding, things can slow down a bit after people dilute their decks with what are often reactive cards. Eternal Witness can be fantastic in these situations. With that said, I could feel differently next week. It is a powerful card that can do some fairly unique things. - I do want to do something with Saffi Eriksdotter and Renegade Rallier at some point, though. Blasting Station and Falkenrath Aristocrat could be fun.
A couple of weeks ago I put together Bant Human Knightfall. It was only a few cards different from Ivan de Castro Sanchez's GP Birmingham top 8 list, so I feel like I was on the right track at least. I have taken his list as a baseline, some of the advice Ari Lax gave in his video set, and my own experience to arrive at my current list. I went 4-0 at FNM, beating Seismic Swans (I know, right?!? If you are unfamiliar, look it up, it's hilarious), G/r Ponza, Burn, and Counters Company.
This deck feels really sweet, especially the sideboard. I made a couple of notable changes from Sanchez's list. I removed Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and moved a copy of Retreat to Coralhelm to the sideboard. I added one Gavony Township because there are few cards better when going wide in modern. The third Eternal Witness was added because I wanted another three-drop and she is likely better than any of the alternatives.
On Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: The decks she's best against are in a downswing currently. There is also the ever-present friction with our own cards, Path to Exile and Collected Company. This sideboard is better against the 'unfair' decks than what I had been running, so the disruption provided by her just wasn't needed as much.
On Retreat to Coralhelm: This card can win games out of nowhere but takes quite a bit of life to combo off. That makes it somewhat of a liability against any kind of aggressive strategy. It is a card that gets sided out fairly often because of this. Bring the second copy in against decks that don't threaten life totals quickly or when you need to combo off faster than an opponent. If your local metagame doesn't have many aggro decks then feel free to run the second copy main over the third Eternal Witness. I did get to combo off turn three on the play against Ponza. That felt good.
On Reflector Mage: The last time I tried this card I didn't like it. Right now, I think it's busted. The format has become a bit more creature-dense and as a result there are few better tempo plays. I also have to admit that board interaction with Collected Company is pretty ruthless.
The Burrenton-Forge Tenders won me at least two games, one against Ponza and one against Burn. I don't know why I didn't have them before. Izzet Staticaster is ridiculous against Counters Company. Just remember that it will kill every Noble Hierarch on the battlefield, not just theirs - unless Thalia's Lieutenant has boosted your own Nobles. My opponent was kind of salty about that one. The body count Staticaster racked up in one game was pretty ridiculous. First activation, two Vizier of Remedies died. Second was three Birds of Paradise. Finally found Lieutenant and got two Nobles with the third activation, which prompted a concession. Negate is one of the best cards we can have against pretty much any of the combo decks and any deck with non-Supreme Verdict sweepers. If we have pressure on board, open mana, and one of these in hand, it often reads "you win the game". Unified Will is a card that I have been warming up to the more often I run into Primeval Titan. Obviously, you only want to board this card in when your opponent isn't running many creatures or removal. When it's good, though, it is a hard counter and is rarely seen coming.
Overall, my initial take on this list is that it feels more powerful and harder to beat than any of the other humans lists I have sleeved up, enough so that I am planning on tuning this for a SCG Modern Classic next month.
This post is about a deck idea that is just for fun and is certainly not ready for competitive action. It's a different way to take the tribal theme that has some nifty interactions. This is just a prototype list, very phase one. I'm sure I have missed many potential inclusions that would significantly improve it. It's quite "Sam Black-ish", if you will. Lots of dies triggers and tokens. Investing much thought into a sideboard when I don't even know what the main deck will end up looking like seems kind of pointless, but not entirely without merit.
It's basically just an Aristocrats-style deck that wants to abuse the pretty awesome potential of Grim Haruspex, Xathrid Necromancer, Teysa, Orzhov Scion, and Liliana, Heretical Healer with fast mana, creatures that leave a board presence behind postmortem, and a land that has the potential to completely ruin peoples' days. The synergies in this deck are abundant and really cool if you like sacrificing creatures for value. Westvale Abbey is hilarious. Cartel Aristocrat in conjunction with Zulaport Cutthroat can provide some serious reach, and people will play differently if they're afraid of Westvale Abbey flipping into Ormendahl, Profane Prince. Collected Company is here yet again because of how well it supports this type of strategy. This deck will be weak to Rest In Peace, Leyline of the Void, and Anger of the Gods so I imagine something like Golgari Charm might be an all-star out of the board. Not sure what else would belong other than some Leyline of the Void of our own. Vault of the Archangel seems pretty legit in a list like this, too. I'm eager to see if Teysa, Orzhov Scion is worth anything or if it's "too cute". I chose Collected Company over something like Return to the Ranks because the strength of the three-drops in a list like this is too much to ignore. CoCo is also superior against graveyard hate. Anyways, just another brew.
@headminerve: 1. It depends on whether or not they are running Empty the Warrens MD or not. If the answer is yes, Thalia is quite a bit better. Thalia is also marginally better against other removal because of that mana tax. In games two and three when they have almost certainly boarded into Lightning Bolt and Empty the Warrens, Mage loses even more value. Thalia taxes their entire deck games one, two, and three.
2. Yes. I want them to have to burn their PtEs and Verdicts early. Making it likely that a removal spell like PtE is in their hand after a Verdict is rarely a good line of play, and all the control decks have so much removal that MM is actively a bad card in those matchups historically. It is almost always just a harder-to cast Grizzly Bear in control and G/B/x matchups. Its' purpose is to be a combo hoser; it does not play well against a deck full of removal, card draw, and countermagic. Big edge to Thalia.
3. Meddling Mage can definitely be better in that spot, especially game 1. They normally run 2-3 (more often just 2) Beast Within MD as their only out to MM. After SB, they bring in Shriekmaw and potentially Dismember so neither is great. It's a matchup we don't win often because their deck specializes in beating decks like humans, almost no matter how they're built. Rest in Peace isn't even a guaranteed win in that matchup.
The main point, though, is that you know exactly what Thalia, Guardian of Thraben does every single time. Meddling Mage, a card I have won many a game with, just isn't great in game one scenarios unless you've seen your opponent's hand. Can there be situational times where it feels busted? Of course. More often, though, whatever you name with it the opponent will be fine with it and continue to play their game relatively unimpeded, whereas Thalia will always tax every single noncreature spell they play. The argument against MM becomes even stronger after decks know it's there. Almost every combo deck in modern has a plan B to go around MM games 2 & 3. Meddling Mage could very well cost you games at that point and be actively bad for your win percentage. I love the card, but I don't think it's quite "there" in modern currently.
I ended up going 3-2-1 at the PPTQ. In order of round played:
1: Death & Taxes - win. While their fliers can be a problem, my larger creatures and CoCos are normally a bigger problem for them.
2: Storm - win. Turn two Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in game one was enough. Game two he never drew into a bolt to remove my turn two Ethersworn Canonist.
3: TitanShift - Loss. This is a bad matchup. Took a quick game one on the strength of Knight of the Reliquary and a well-timed Ghost Quarter on Valakut. Lost game two after a turn four Primeval Titan (as one often will). I did not draw a keepable hand in game three. Mulled to four cards, still didn't find land, but I wouldn't mull to three. Had to pass on my first turn, missing my land drop. That game did not go well for me.
4: G/W Value Town - Unintentional draw. Long game one which I was finally able to break open with Kessig Wolf Run, a Mirran Crusader, and three active Knight of the Reliquary that he tried valiantly to keep in check with Scavenging Ooze. Tried. Game two he got his KotR active along with Ramunap Excavator to start recurring Ghost Quarter and Scavenging Ooze to control my graveyard. We started game three with about two minutes left. On turn three I had CoCo into two Mirran Crusader while holding a Thalia's Lieutenant in hand, but time had just been called. Two more minutes and that match is most likely mine, but that's how it goes.
5: 5-Color Humans - Win. His list was... different. He only had the four Nobles as acceleration, he had Metallic Mimic, and his three-drops largely seemed worse than mine (Hanweir Garrison and Abzan Falconer seem suspect, although Reflector Mage has its' moments). I ran him over in two fairly quick games, largely due to turn one acceleration into turn two KotR that he just couldn't race. He also had weaker-than-average draws, even for his somewhat suspect list.
6: G/R Ponza - Loss. Win-and-in for top 8. In game one, I did not fetch a Forest turn one when I was on the draw and his turn two Blood Moon slowed me down long enough that he was able to get Inferno Titan into play. If I fetch Forest turn one, I can unload my hand that included multiple KotR, likely growing them past the point of his removal. Game two I decide to play Avacyn's Pilgrim turn one instead of Champion of the Parish. I end up losing my board and the match to Anger of the Gods because of my poor sequencing a couple of turns later.
Updated list:
I imagine I will put the second Ghost Quarter back in as soon as I figure out if I like Horizon Canopy or Westvale Abbey more. Five colorless is the limit at 23 lands for me.
Q&A Time - from Wesste
1) how are you getting on with Thalia, guardian of thraben in the board? Particularly with CoCo and path?
2) Without horizon canopy, dark confidant or duskwatch recruiter do you find you end up in top deck mode quite a bit?
3) have you found not having any board wipe protection an issue? Or, considered return to the ranks?
4) your sideboard runs a high number of non-creatures. Assuming you don't board out CoCos you had many 'whiffs'?
5) I see from your report that you've beaten Tron. How do you normally get on versus the big mana decks?
6) would you make any maindeck changes?
1. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is in the maindeck. She gives me a shot to win game one against some of the tougher matchups where Path to Exile is generally mediocre at best and can rot in our hand. I've found that in the fair matchups the land off PtE isn't as punishing, especially when you generally aren't going to cast one until turn four or five. She can also punish land-light keeps/mulligans more than most other two-drops in the history of the game. I will continue playing three copies MD so long as I am running the full set of eight mana dorks and 22-23 lands. It is, however, the creature that gets boarded out the most due to my spell-heavy sideboard and the desire to hit turn three Collected Company in some matchups.
2. More often I don't have time to deploy every card in hand, but occasionally that does happen. I think I am going to try to find room for one Horizon Canopy. Outside of infinite mana + Walking Ballista, I'm not a huge Duskwatch Recruiter fan. I'd rather run Tireless Tracker if I were after a card-advantage mana sink due to its' synergy with Knight of the Reliquary.
3. Yes. I have been punished heavily for not having sweeper protection. I would consider Return to the Ranks but it suffers two different problems: (a) the creatures I really want to return cost three. (b) Graveyard hate is already good (not great) against this version of the deck. I don't want my sideboard plan to be weak to what an opponent might be bringing in against me. Most of the sweepers I am losing to are in decks that Path to Exile is actively bad against. Since I am already splashing red, Boros Charm will be tried, and I imagine it will lead to some blowouts. A copy or two of Burrenton Forge-Tender might be necessary as well, but I really hope not.
4. I am at 29 creatures MD. I have run lists with as few as 24 and was happy with CoCo there, so there is some flexibility in the numbers. Most of the time CoCo whiffs there are lands involved, but CoCo just doesn't whiff often because it goes six deep. I will sideboard only what is necessary to minimize the chance of that happening. I will take out a CoCo or two if I have multiple really strong hosers to side into, but that is rare. I'm also fond of cutting a land on the draw.
5. Stony Silence + Ghost Quarter can give Tron lists fits, but if they ever get online I'm probably going to have a bad time. G/R big mana (Ponza, TitanShift) decks are much tougher. I think Blood Moon out of the board would help against Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle and Tron with the added benefit of just cheesing other decks out. However, I don't think it's necessary, and it might actually hurt this deck's overall gameplan. I like my utility lands a lot. If I can maintain a board presence, the long game doesn't even matter. Boros Charm can help with this, while providing the option of much-needed reach.
6. I would cut one Ghost Quarter for a Horizon Canopy and one Forest for a Stomping Ground, and at that point it would make sense to cut the three Marsh Flats for three Arid Mesa. A utility land I am interested in trying out is Westvale Abbey. It does make human tokens and Ormendahl, Profane Prince can end some games quickly. I don't want to cut Gavony Township or Kessig Wolf Run, so it would be competing for a spot with either the second Ghost Quarter or Horizon Canopy. I like the MD otherwise. The sideboard, however, needed revision.
The past two Fridays I played in local, 12-16 people events against a reasonably competitive metagame where basically everyone is running a different list. It's a pretty handy gauntlet when you're wanting to tune a list for a bigger event and don't modo (we also do Monday nights, I just didn't make it this week). Each event is four rounds. I went a combined 7-1 with my list with wins against Eldrazi Tron, Grixis Death's Shadow (x2), Monowhite Death & Taxes, Naya midrange (every now and again a "true brew" shows up), Dredge, and Jund. The one loss was to (UGH) Merfolk. Stinkin' fish. The fish match was winnable, I just screwed it up. Here is what I will be running in a PPTQ tomorrow:
Engineered Explosives have made their way back into the board. I wanted more removal for the Merfolk match and something that could blow up a Chalice set to one. This covers both nicely, and is just a good all-around card. It is also a house against that "Counters Company" list where every important card they have is CMC 2 (Duskwatch Recruiter, Vizier of the Remedies, Devoted Druid, etc).
The main deck seems pretty spot-on, so far. This is a format where there is literally no way to beat everything every time (which is a great thing for diversity), but a good bet is to be aggressive with a smidgen of disruption and take advantage of people trying to do the "cool and flashy" things. This deck achieves that well. I'll post an update with how my tourney went, probably by Monday.
***Anecdote: I was in a game three against a burn opponent a couple of weeks back and it was looking grim - opponent had just bolted me down to 2-3 life (effectively the same in this scenario) and suspended a rift bolt that was sure to kill me during his next upkeep. I had a good start myself, t1 dork into t2 Crusader, holding CoCo up on t3 (I was on the draw). Opponent at 18 life, tapped out, no blockers. I also had two Thalia's Lieutenants in hand. I played CoCo, knowing my out was very slim - I needed to hit another Crusader AND another Lieutenant. KA-CHING! Untapped, played the two other Lieutenants, swung in for 25 damage, and left my opponents' jaw firmly on the floor. Stealing games from burn is fun.
My last update was about an Abzan list I had been trying. Given the minimal space for non-Coco spells, I couldn't quite find a balance with the discard package and creature removal that felt satisfying. The more games played, the more I realized that while Dark Confidant was great, the deck just didn't need that kind of card advantage if you were running both Eternal Witness (I have come to my own personal conclusion that three is the right number; two doesn't hit often enough, but I don't want them clogging my hand) and a set of Collected Company. This has been pointed out in this thread, I just don't remember who; you were right.
Threat density was also an issue. The CoCos were still good, to be certain, but when I didn't draw those I might see two removal spells, a discard spell, and two mediocre creatures. That obviously isn't enough pressure for a deck trying to abuse synergies in a format filled with efficient spot removal. Lesson learned.
I'm still not horribly impressed with Thalia, Heretic Cathar. She hasn't been horrible, by any stretch, just not overly impressive. Much, much better on the play. Still on the radar, though. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben was missed too much. The card absolutely punishes weak keeps and mulligans so well. She's back in. To compensate, we bring Avacyn's Pilgrim back into the mix. I want to maximize my chances of playing a turn 2 three-drop and turn 3 CoCo. I was losing some to Lingering Souls chump patrol, hence the red splash for Kessig Wolf Run.
All in all, it's a pretty typical list, which is probably a good thing. It is focused and consistent, which is more than can be said of the Abzan experiment I was running. Fracturing Gust is in the board because I really don't like hexproof (I'm well aware that it isn't exactly prevalent in the metagame currently). If I live long enough to cast it against Robots it's pretty funny too, for me at least. Ethersworn Canonist is a house against some of the unfair decks humans tend to struggle with (Storm, Living End, Ad Nauseam, etc). I've been told Planeswalkers are good against control. I know they're good against the midrange decks, and that's good enough for me. That, and I want to unlock the "Jump a Crusader" achievement.
I don't sweat the burn matchup much; either they roast us dead or we get a bit lucky and beat them. If they are an inexperienced burn pilot, this is much more likely. It's also one of the more play/draw dependent matchups, which is to be expected. CoCo is really good against Eidolon of the Great Revel. Beating them on board is the only real shot we have, but that happens a bit more often than expected. This is almost certainly due to the fact that burn just fizzles out occasionally more than anything we are doing. That's just how burn goes.
Tron is still pretty rough if we don't draw Ghost Quarter and post-board Stony Silence - neither of which matter at all if you don't present a fast clock. I'm tempted to try Blood Moon in the board, but haven't yet because I have morals. Stupid morals.
Here's where I am at currently, which is more of an update to the list I posted on this thread a couple of months ago:
Mirran Crusader + Kessig Wolf Run can steal games. The extra mana dorks help fuel this. Gavony Township is still too good to cut. Six colorless lands is being too greedy, so three Ghost Quarter is where we end up. Cavern of Souls doesn't feel as important as fetchlands due to KotR. Knight of the Reliquary came back into my life recently after several Pyroclasm, Anger of the Gods, and Conflagrate blowouts. Elspeth, Knight-Errant has better synergy with the deck, being able to send the heavy hitters over the top of a clogged ground. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar closes out games on its' own much faster on a clear board. A split seemed like the best choice.
If I were to move 2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar back into the main, I would cut a Mirran Crusader and move one Path to Exile to the sideboard, likely cutting the Bojuka Bog (it is the 75th card, so to speak). If I were to add 2 Blood Moon to the sideboard (unlikely, but Hey, Free Wins!), I would cut the Bojuka Bog and one Ethersworn Canonist.
As always, I appreciate the feedback.
Well, I decided to do what a lot of people seem to be hesitant to do just to see what happened - I cut both of the legendary Thalia's from my 75; removed some weak creatures for what are just stronger cards in the format right now, in my opinion; decided to run a fairly minimal amount of creatures for a CoCo list; added more interaction. Results so far? Higher winning percentage. I'll go over my decisions for certain cards after the list. I still haven't found a consistent way to beat Tron variants without bending over backwards, but I'm fine having a bad matchup or two across a format as diverse as modern. I'd rather shut the door on decks we can actually beat consistently. My current Abzan list:
I was worried that dropping down to 25 creatures might hurt my CoCos too much, but I don't think that is the case. After reading up on some of Frank Karsten's fine work, 25 seems to be slightly above the lowest threshold of consistent payoff (being around 23), and my experience to date reflects this. 25 is enough, albeit just. Keep in mind this is not built to be an aggro list. It is a midrange list that is capable of aggressive starts.
Hey, Bobby: I know he doesn't attack well. I know he's a target. I also know Dark Confidant is a better Magic card than any other two drop available, especially since I've slowed the deck down a turn or two in favor of good disruption. Card advantage in Modern can still pay off.
Speaking of good disruption, Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize are the best at what they do and interact with pretty much every deck in the format. Quite a bit of human-based disruption is fairly narrow, and with the inclusion of Bob to play on turn 2, these are where I want to be in modern right now. Couple that with the fact Humans can close games reasonably fast helps too.
One of the original reasons I decided to try Abzan was that it irritated me that I felt Path to Exile and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben were both necessary in G/W, and I really disliked the "tax the mana/give them a land" plan. Fatal Push seemed to be the one-mana removal I had been waiting for, something to pair with Thalia that wasn't a straight "nonbo"! One problem still existed, however: Collected Company. I know CoCo is where I want to be in modern humans right now, without a doubt, but being stuck on 4 mana and not being able to cast CoCo has happened one too many times. Thalia went from 3 copies... to 2... to 1... and now is just not worth the spot to me. With the discard and sideboard options, the disruption is still there, just in a different form. Fatal Push, now not as necessary due to Thalia being removed from the deck, has once again reverted back to Path to Exile. With the uptick in Eldrazi and Wurmcoil Engine, plus Grixis DS standouts Gurmag Angler and Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Path is back to being my removal of choice. I want to be able to interact with what my opponent is doing.
4 Mirran Crusader: I don't want my opponent to be able to interact with what I am doing. With the downswing of Path and Lightning Bolt, the inclusion of the often must-kill Bob, and discard, this dude generally sticks around for a bit. He holds buff counters quite well. He also closes games very, very rapidly.
2 Scavenging Ooze: Yeah, not a human. Wish it were. I mean, if Experiment One can be a human ooze... I wanted a way to interact with the graveyard game one due to Dredge and Living End both being difficult (but winnable) matchups, and was also in the market for incidental lifegain because Bob. Not much else can do both on a card that can be hit with CoCo, and after all, every human deserves a good pet. Side note: I tried Grim Flayer in this spot because I like the card and I am running six MD sorceries and seven instants. As you can imagine, it definitely wasn't enough to reliably turn on delirium. Darn.
I am trying out a split between Gavony Township and Vault of the Archangel. I know GT is good, but I'm not sure yet if this deck can support more than one colorless land when I'm trying to "cheat" at 22 lands. I suspect two might be one too many, and if it is, Township gets the nod over Vault. I do like Vault as lifegain, and deathtouch with Mirran Crusader is pretty legit, but I don't think it'll be enough to stick around in the deck. If I decide to go back to the 3/2 split on Thalia, GoT and Thalia, Heretic Cathar, I'm a bit more interested in this. Mayor of Avabruck has been consistently underwhelming, hence the exclusion. The lack of Cavern of Souls is due to having more one-mana noncreature spells. Fastlands are better here in my opinion. It is certainly reasonable to think that Vault of the Archangel could be replaced by a Cavern, however.
I was going to do at least a partial sideboarding guide for this deck, but that will have to wait... it's late and modern is a pretty big format. I know I might be horribly wrong with some choices (Champion + Bob + discard + CoCo? Am I a madman?), but so far this feels just a bit more powerful than any of the other humans lists I have tried. Thank you in advance for any feedback, and don't be afraid to push the "accepted norm". That is how scientific progress happens (and sometimes goes 'boink').
This is a bit more of an all-in Boros list. I haven't seen anything else posted that has quite this arrangement of cards with an artifact sub-theme. It is currently only theory and is completely untested, but it seems good in my head. I've been brewing for almost 20 years now, so I know that most brews end up just not quite making the cut for competitive play. I imagine this to be the case here as well, but I like having fun with it, so here we are.
This is just an example SB, untested and untuned. Aether Vial, Thraben Inspector clues, Metallic Mimic, and Pia and Kiran Nalaar thopters give us a critical mass of artifacts that let us take advantage of one of the more busted burn spells ever printed - Shrapnel Blast. We have a pair of Darksteel Citadels to supplement this; the colorless splash is basically free. Mutavault and Blinkmoth Nexus are also considerations, as is Hanweir Battlements.
With a fairly low curve, and the ability to Vial it in, Abbott of Keral Keep gets the main deck nod over Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (still would keep 2-3 of her in SB). The more looks we get at the potent burn spells we have, the better. Pia and Kiran Nalaar is a house of a card on its' own. It seems like it would be gas to Vial it in with mana up for the ability. This deck has enough artifacts and reach to make that ability much more relevant than it is in a lot of other decks. Bloodlust Inciter + Hanweir Garrison might be too cute. Just in case it isn't, we're gonna try it out with Champions, Lieutenants, and Mimics, oh my! If you've seen the standard Boros Humans recently, you know exactly what I mean.
I'm excited to try this out and will post updates as they occur.
Hello all! I have been checking this thread for a while now and finally decided to sign up. I was fortunate enough a little over four years ago to win a standard SCG Open trophy with a Naya humans list, and lately (mainly due to Thalia's Lieutenant) have been sleeving up Champions again. I'm really inexperienced with these forums but will try and figure out how to create lists appropriately for ease-of-viewing. I feel like I definitely have quite a bit of experience and knowledge to share, and I'd appreciate solutions and constructive feedback to my inevitable rookie-level internet mistakes.
I've been running a little more of a midrange list that is inspired by Todd Stevens' value town CoCo from SCG Dallas a couple of months back.
I've been playing this at my lgs twice a week for a couple of months now, with some tweaks here and there to the md and sb. It's been competitive but not dominant. Renegade Rallier has been awesome alongside KotR, Ghost Quarter, fetches, and Horizon Canopy. Even if it's just to get one of the lands back, it feels pretty busted. I rarely lose a game in which RR revolts early. The value of Tireless Tracker + KotR + fetches is absolutely ridiculous in the mid and late game. Still... I think humans can do better. I think I'd rather be more all-in aggressive Boros or a bit more midrange abzan. I'll post my take on how I would initially build these lists, then I will eventually build, test, and refine these lists if they prove to be somewhat competitive with tier 1-1.5 strategies.
-So far, I like it. After Thalia's Lieutenant, I'm really not excited about any of our two-drops. I could definitely see cutting one Avacyn's Pilgrim, but I'm not sure what I would replace it with. Probably a Thalia, Guardian of Thraben or move the second copy of Retreat to Coralhelm to the main deck.
-Most of the time I cast Collected Company, Eternal Witness is the card I want to see. I don't want too many clogging my hand, which is why I choose to run three. I just noticed that rhymed... my bad. It stays. While the 2/1 body is lacking, the ability to recur lands, creatures, or spells is simply more powerful than most of the other things we could be doing.
-Thalia, Heretic Cathar is a card I have been largely unimpressed with. I want my three drops to either be relatively hard to deal with (Knight of the Reliquary, Mirran Crusader) or provide immediate value (Eternal Witness, Reflector Mage). Thalia, Heretic Cathar does neither, unfortunately. While I do like the synergies three-drop Thalia has with cards like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Reflector Mage, I don't think it does enough unless you get to cast it turn two on the play. The other three drops have a better chance at stabilizing when we are behind, as well. If the Goryo's Vengeance/Through the Breach style decks pick up, Thalia, Heretic Cathar becomes better.
-The move to 22 lands was because I really wanted a copy of Gavony Township in the list and felt like none of the other lands should be removed due to Retreat to Coralhelm. This also goes back to having the eight mana dorks - they are less of a liability if we have a way to buff them. The utility lands and Eternal Witness also make flooding out less of a liability in general. You are right about it being difficult to quantify, as 21 vs 22 lands is a pretty minimal thing statistically.
---As an aside, I do have a bias when it comes to Eternal Witness. It was a buddy of mine's favorite card. He was a great Magic player that had seen success at the higher levels of competition. He committed suicide a few years ago and now his parents host a memorial tournament every spring that benefits suicide prevention organizations. The Hunter Burton Memorial Tournament is a great event for a great cause. If anyone wants information about this outstanding event that takes place in the Dallas/Fort Worth area of Texas, let me know and I will provide it.
I have tried Renegade Rallier before in a shell with Knight of the Reliquary. I actually think the two-drops are the weakest part of the humans deck, to be honest. I found I was happier returning a fetchland in the early game for ramp than anything else, which was definitely good, but I always thought it wasn't making the best use of the revolt ability. I do like Rallier, quite a bit, but I think it is best suited in decks that have better targets (Voice of Resurgence, Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze come to mind). Eternal Witness is not as explosive, but I value being able to recur Path to Exile, Collected Company, or one of our sideboard instants more than the explosiveness. Additionally, our best creatures are at three mana, and Rallier can't recur those. After sideboarding, things can slow down a bit after people dilute their decks with what are often reactive cards. Eternal Witness can be fantastic in these situations. With that said, I could feel differently next week. It is a powerful card that can do some fairly unique things. - I do want to do something with Saffi Eriksdotter and Renegade Rallier at some point, though. Blasting Station and Falkenrath Aristocrat could be fun.
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Mayor of Avabruck
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Reflector Mage
Spells
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
Lands
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Vithian Renegades
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Negate
1 Unified Will
1 Stony Silence
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
This deck feels really sweet, especially the sideboard. I made a couple of notable changes from Sanchez's list. I removed Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and moved a copy of Retreat to Coralhelm to the sideboard. I added one Gavony Township because there are few cards better when going wide in modern. The third Eternal Witness was added because I wanted another three-drop and she is likely better than any of the alternatives.
On Thalia, Guardian of Thraben: The decks she's best against are in a downswing currently. There is also the ever-present friction with our own cards, Path to Exile and Collected Company. This sideboard is better against the 'unfair' decks than what I had been running, so the disruption provided by her just wasn't needed as much.
On Retreat to Coralhelm: This card can win games out of nowhere but takes quite a bit of life to combo off. That makes it somewhat of a liability against any kind of aggressive strategy. It is a card that gets sided out fairly often because of this. Bring the second copy in against decks that don't threaten life totals quickly or when you need to combo off faster than an opponent. If your local metagame doesn't have many aggro decks then feel free to run the second copy main over the third Eternal Witness. I did get to combo off turn three on the play against Ponza. That felt good.
On Reflector Mage: The last time I tried this card I didn't like it. Right now, I think it's busted. The format has become a bit more creature-dense and as a result there are few better tempo plays. I also have to admit that board interaction with Collected Company is pretty ruthless.
The Burrenton-Forge Tenders won me at least two games, one against Ponza and one against Burn. I don't know why I didn't have them before.
Izzet Staticaster is ridiculous against Counters Company. Just remember that it will kill every Noble Hierarch on the battlefield, not just theirs - unless Thalia's Lieutenant has boosted your own Nobles. My opponent was kind of salty about that one. The body count Staticaster racked up in one game was pretty ridiculous. First activation, two Vizier of Remedies died. Second was three Birds of Paradise. Finally found Lieutenant and got two Nobles with the third activation, which prompted a concession.
Negate is one of the best cards we can have against pretty much any of the combo decks and any deck with non-Supreme Verdict sweepers. If we have pressure on board, open mana, and one of these in hand, it often reads "you win the game". Unified Will is a card that I have been warming up to the more often I run into Primeval Titan. Obviously, you only want to board this card in when your opponent isn't running many creatures or removal. When it's good, though, it is a hard counter and is rarely seen coming.
Overall, my initial take on this list is that it feels more powerful and harder to beat than any of the other humans lists I have sleeved up, enough so that I am planning on tuning this for a SCG Modern Classic next month.
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Noble Heirarch
4 Doomed Traveler
4 Doomed Dissenter
4 Cartel Aristocrat
3 Zulaport Cutthroat
2 Grim Haruspex
4 Xathrid Necromancer
2 Liliana, Heretical Healer
2 Teysa, Orzhov Scion
4 Collected Company
Lands
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Razorverge Thicket
3 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Westvale Abbey
1 Vault of the Archangel
It's basically just an Aristocrats-style deck that wants to abuse the pretty awesome potential of Grim Haruspex, Xathrid Necromancer, Teysa, Orzhov Scion, and Liliana, Heretical Healer with fast mana, creatures that leave a board presence behind postmortem, and a land that has the potential to completely ruin peoples' days. The synergies in this deck are abundant and really cool if you like sacrificing creatures for value. Westvale Abbey is hilarious. Cartel Aristocrat in conjunction with Zulaport Cutthroat can provide some serious reach, and people will play differently if they're afraid of Westvale Abbey flipping into Ormendahl, Profane Prince. Collected Company is here yet again because of how well it supports this type of strategy. This deck will be weak to Rest In Peace, Leyline of the Void, and Anger of the Gods so I imagine something like Golgari Charm might be an all-star out of the board. Not sure what else would belong other than some Leyline of the Void of our own. Vault of the Archangel seems pretty legit in a list like this, too. I'm eager to see if Teysa, Orzhov Scion is worth anything or if it's "too cute". I chose Collected Company over something like Return to the Ranks because the strength of the three-drops in a list like this is too much to ignore. CoCo is also superior against graveyard hate. Anyways, just another brew.
2. Yes. I want them to have to burn their PtEs and Verdicts early. Making it likely that a removal spell like PtE is in their hand after a Verdict is rarely a good line of play, and all the control decks have so much removal that MM is actively a bad card in those matchups historically. It is almost always just a harder-to cast Grizzly Bear in control and G/B/x matchups. Its' purpose is to be a combo hoser; it does not play well against a deck full of removal, card draw, and countermagic. Big edge to Thalia.
3. Meddling Mage can definitely be better in that spot, especially game 1. They normally run 2-3 (more often just 2) Beast Within MD as their only out to MM. After SB, they bring in Shriekmaw and potentially Dismember so neither is great. It's a matchup we don't win often because their deck specializes in beating decks like humans, almost no matter how they're built. Rest in Peace isn't even a guaranteed win in that matchup.
The main point, though, is that you know exactly what Thalia, Guardian of Thraben does every single time. Meddling Mage, a card I have won many a game with, just isn't great in game one scenarios unless you've seen your opponent's hand. Can there be situational times where it feels busted? Of course. More often, though, whatever you name with it the opponent will be fine with it and continue to play their game relatively unimpeded, whereas Thalia will always tax every single noncreature spell they play. The argument against MM becomes even stronger after decks know it's there. Almost every combo deck in modern has a plan B to go around MM games 2 & 3. Meddling Mage could very well cost you games at that point and be actively bad for your win percentage. I love the card, but I don't think it's quite "there" in modern currently.
1: Death & Taxes - win. While their fliers can be a problem, my larger creatures and CoCos are normally a bigger problem for them.
2: Storm - win. Turn two Thalia, Guardian of Thraben in game one was enough. Game two he never drew into a bolt to remove my turn two Ethersworn Canonist.
3: TitanShift - Loss. This is a bad matchup. Took a quick game one on the strength of Knight of the Reliquary and a well-timed Ghost Quarter on Valakut. Lost game two after a turn four Primeval Titan (as one often will). I did not draw a keepable hand in game three. Mulled to four cards, still didn't find land, but I wouldn't mull to three. Had to pass on my first turn, missing my land drop. That game did not go well for me.
4: G/W Value Town - Unintentional draw. Long game one which I was finally able to break open with Kessig Wolf Run, a Mirran Crusader, and three active Knight of the Reliquary that he tried valiantly to keep in check with Scavenging Ooze. Tried. Game two he got his KotR active along with Ramunap Excavator to start recurring Ghost Quarter and Scavenging Ooze to control my graveyard. We started game three with about two minutes left. On turn three I had CoCo into two Mirran Crusader while holding a Thalia's Lieutenant in hand, but time had just been called. Two more minutes and that match is most likely mine, but that's how it goes.
5: 5-Color Humans - Win. His list was... different. He only had the four Nobles as acceleration, he had Metallic Mimic, and his three-drops largely seemed worse than mine (Hanweir Garrison and Abzan Falconer seem suspect, although Reflector Mage has its' moments). I ran him over in two fairly quick games, largely due to turn one acceleration into turn two KotR that he just couldn't race. He also had weaker-than-average draws, even for his somewhat suspect list.
6: G/R Ponza - Loss. Win-and-in for top 8. In game one, I did not fetch a Forest turn one when I was on the draw and his turn two Blood Moon slowed me down long enough that he was able to get Inferno Titan into play. If I fetch Forest turn one, I can unload my hand that included multiple KotR, likely growing them past the point of his removal. Game two I decide to play Avacyn's Pilgrim turn one instead of Champion of the Parish. I end up losing my board and the match to Anger of the Gods because of my poor sequencing a couple of turns later.
Updated list:
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Heirarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
Spells
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
Lands
2 Forest
2 Plains
3 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gavony Township
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Westvale Abbey
2 Blessed Alliance
3 Boros Charm
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Auriok Champion
2 Ethersworn Canonist
I imagine I will put the second Ghost Quarter back in as soon as I figure out if I like Horizon Canopy or Westvale Abbey more. Five colorless is the limit at 23 lands for me.
Q&A Time - from Wesste
1. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is in the maindeck. She gives me a shot to win game one against some of the tougher matchups where Path to Exile is generally mediocre at best and can rot in our hand. I've found that in the fair matchups the land off PtE isn't as punishing, especially when you generally aren't going to cast one until turn four or five. She can also punish land-light keeps/mulligans more than most other two-drops in the history of the game. I will continue playing three copies MD so long as I am running the full set of eight mana dorks and 22-23 lands. It is, however, the creature that gets boarded out the most due to my spell-heavy sideboard and the desire to hit turn three Collected Company in some matchups.
2. More often I don't have time to deploy every card in hand, but occasionally that does happen. I think I am going to try to find room for one Horizon Canopy. Outside of infinite mana + Walking Ballista, I'm not a huge Duskwatch Recruiter fan. I'd rather run Tireless Tracker if I were after a card-advantage mana sink due to its' synergy with Knight of the Reliquary.
3. Yes. I have been punished heavily for not having sweeper protection. I would consider Return to the Ranks but it suffers two different problems: (a) the creatures I really want to return cost three. (b) Graveyard hate is already good (not great) against this version of the deck. I don't want my sideboard plan to be weak to what an opponent might be bringing in against me. Most of the sweepers I am losing to are in decks that Path to Exile is actively bad against. Since I am already splashing red, Boros Charm will be tried, and I imagine it will lead to some blowouts. A copy or two of Burrenton Forge-Tender might be necessary as well, but I really hope not.
4. I am at 29 creatures MD. I have run lists with as few as 24 and was happy with CoCo there, so there is some flexibility in the numbers. Most of the time CoCo whiffs there are lands involved, but CoCo just doesn't whiff often because it goes six deep. I will sideboard only what is necessary to minimize the chance of that happening. I will take out a CoCo or two if I have multiple really strong hosers to side into, but that is rare. I'm also fond of cutting a land on the draw.
5. Stony Silence + Ghost Quarter can give Tron lists fits, but if they ever get online I'm probably going to have a bad time. G/R big mana (Ponza, TitanShift) decks are much tougher. I think Blood Moon out of the board would help against Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle and Tron with the added benefit of just cheesing other decks out. However, I don't think it's necessary, and it might actually hurt this deck's overall gameplan. I like my utility lands a lot. If I can maintain a board presence, the long game doesn't even matter. Boros Charm can help with this, while providing the option of much-needed reach.
6. I would cut one Ghost Quarter for a Horizon Canopy and one Forest for a Stomping Ground, and at that point it would make sense to cut the three Marsh Flats for three Arid Mesa. A utility land I am interested in trying out is Westvale Abbey. It does make human tokens and Ormendahl, Profane Prince can end some games quickly. I don't want to cut Gavony Township or Kessig Wolf Run, so it would be competing for a spot with either the second Ghost Quarter or Horizon Canopy. I like the MD otherwise. The sideboard, however, needed revision.
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Heirarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
Spells
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
3 Forest
2 Plains
3 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple Garden
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Gavony Township
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Fracturing Gust
2 Auriok Champion
2 Ethersworn Canonist
Engineered Explosives have made their way back into the board. I wanted more removal for the Merfolk match and something that could blow up a Chalice set to one. This covers both nicely, and is just a good all-around card. It is also a house against that "Counters Company" list where every important card they have is CMC 2 (Duskwatch Recruiter, Vizier of the Remedies, Devoted Druid, etc).
The main deck seems pretty spot-on, so far. This is a format where there is literally no way to beat everything every time (which is a great thing for diversity), but a good bet is to be aggressive with a smidgen of disruption and take advantage of people trying to do the "cool and flashy" things. This deck achieves that well. I'll post an update with how my tourney went, probably by Monday.
***Anecdote: I was in a game three against a burn opponent a couple of weeks back and it was looking grim - opponent had just bolted me down to 2-3 life (effectively the same in this scenario) and suspended a rift bolt that was sure to kill me during his next upkeep. I had a good start myself, t1 dork into t2 Crusader, holding CoCo up on t3 (I was on the draw). Opponent at 18 life, tapped out, no blockers. I also had two Thalia's Lieutenants in hand. I played CoCo, knowing my out was very slim - I needed to hit another Crusader AND another Lieutenant. KA-CHING! Untapped, played the two other Lieutenants, swung in for 25 damage, and left my opponents' jaw firmly on the floor. Stealing games from burn is fun.
Threat density was also an issue. The CoCos were still good, to be certain, but when I didn't draw those I might see two removal spells, a discard spell, and two mediocre creatures. That obviously isn't enough pressure for a deck trying to abuse synergies in a format filled with efficient spot removal. Lesson learned.
I'm still not horribly impressed with Thalia, Heretic Cathar. She hasn't been horrible, by any stretch, just not overly impressive. Much, much better on the play. Still on the radar, though. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben was missed too much. The card absolutely punishes weak keeps and mulligans so well. She's back in. To compensate, we bring Avacyn's Pilgrim back into the mix. I want to maximize my chances of playing a turn 2 three-drop and turn 3 CoCo. I was losing some to Lingering Souls chump patrol, hence the red splash for Kessig Wolf Run.
All in all, it's a pretty typical list, which is probably a good thing. It is focused and consistent, which is more than can be said of the Abzan experiment I was running.
Fracturing Gust is in the board because I really don't like hexproof (I'm well aware that it isn't exactly prevalent in the metagame currently). If I live long enough to cast it against Robots it's pretty funny too, for me at least. Ethersworn Canonist is a house against some of the unfair decks humans tend to struggle with (Storm, Living End, Ad Nauseam, etc). I've been told Planeswalkers are good against control. I know they're good against the midrange decks, and that's good enough for me. That, and I want to unlock the "Jump a Crusader" achievement.
I don't sweat the burn matchup much; either they roast us dead or we get a bit lucky and beat them. If they are an inexperienced burn pilot, this is much more likely. It's also one of the more play/draw dependent matchups, which is to be expected. CoCo is really good against Eidolon of the Great Revel. Beating them on board is the only real shot we have, but that happens a bit more often than expected. This is almost certainly due to the fact that burn just fizzles out occasionally more than anything we are doing. That's just how burn goes.
Tron is still pretty rough if we don't draw Ghost Quarter and post-board Stony Silence - neither of which matter at all if you don't present a fast clock. I'm tempted to try Blood Moon in the board, but haven't yet because I have morals. Stupid morals.
Here's where I am at currently, which is more of an update to the list I posted on this thread a couple of months ago:
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Heirarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
Spells
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
3 Forest
2 Plains
3 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple Garden
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Gavony Township
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Fracturing Gust
2 Auriok Champion
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Bojuka Bog
Knight of the Reliquary came back into my life recently after several Pyroclasm, Anger of the Gods, and Conflagrate blowouts.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant has better synergy with the deck, being able to send the heavy hitters over the top of a clogged ground. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar closes out games on its' own much faster on a clear board. A split seemed like the best choice.
If I were to move 2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar back into the main, I would cut a Mirran Crusader and move one Path to Exile to the sideboard, likely cutting the Bojuka Bog (it is the 75th card, so to speak). If I were to add 2 Blood Moon to the sideboard (unlikely, but Hey, Free Wins!), I would cut the Bojuka Bog and one Ethersworn Canonist.
As always, I appreciate the feedback.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Eternal Witness
4 Mirran Crusader
Spells
3 Path to Exile
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Collected Company
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Concealed Courtyard
1 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Godless Shrine
3 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Plains
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Swamp
2 Temple Garden
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
2 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Sin Collector
1 Collective Brutality
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
I was worried that dropping down to 25 creatures might hurt my CoCos too much, but I don't think that is the case. After reading up on some of Frank Karsten's fine work, 25 seems to be slightly above the lowest threshold of consistent payoff (being around 23), and my experience to date reflects this. 25 is enough, albeit just. Keep in mind this is not built to be an aggro list. It is a midrange list that is capable of aggressive starts.
Hey, Bobby: I know he doesn't attack well. I know he's a target. I also know Dark Confidant is a better Magic card than any other two drop available, especially since I've slowed the deck down a turn or two in favor of good disruption. Card advantage in Modern can still pay off.
Speaking of good disruption, Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseize are the best at what they do and interact with pretty much every deck in the format. Quite a bit of human-based disruption is fairly narrow, and with the inclusion of Bob to play on turn 2, these are where I want to be in modern right now. Couple that with the fact Humans can close games reasonably fast helps too.
One of the original reasons I decided to try Abzan was that it irritated me that I felt Path to Exile and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben were both necessary in G/W, and I really disliked the "tax the mana/give them a land" plan. Fatal Push seemed to be the one-mana removal I had been waiting for, something to pair with Thalia that wasn't a straight "nonbo"! One problem still existed, however: Collected Company. I know CoCo is where I want to be in modern humans right now, without a doubt, but being stuck on 4 mana and not being able to cast CoCo has happened one too many times. Thalia went from 3 copies... to 2... to 1... and now is just not worth the spot to me. With the discard and sideboard options, the disruption is still there, just in a different form. Fatal Push, now not as necessary due to Thalia being removed from the deck, has once again reverted back to Path to Exile. With the uptick in Eldrazi and Wurmcoil Engine, plus Grixis DS standouts Gurmag Angler and Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Path is back to being my removal of choice. I want to be able to interact with what my opponent is doing.
4 Mirran Crusader: I don't want my opponent to be able to interact with what I am doing. With the downswing of Path and Lightning Bolt, the inclusion of the often must-kill Bob, and discard, this dude generally sticks around for a bit. He holds buff counters quite well. He also closes games very, very rapidly.
2 Scavenging Ooze: Yeah, not a human. Wish it were. I mean, if Experiment One can be a human ooze... I wanted a way to interact with the graveyard game one due to Dredge and Living End both being difficult (but winnable) matchups, and was also in the market for incidental lifegain because Bob. Not much else can do both on a card that can be hit with CoCo, and after all, every human deserves a good pet. Side note: I tried Grim Flayer in this spot because I like the card and I am running six MD sorceries and seven instants. As you can imagine, it definitely wasn't enough to reliably turn on delirium. Darn.
I am trying out a split between Gavony Township and Vault of the Archangel. I know GT is good, but I'm not sure yet if this deck can support more than one colorless land when I'm trying to "cheat" at 22 lands. I suspect two might be one too many, and if it is, Township gets the nod over Vault. I do like Vault as lifegain, and deathtouch with Mirran Crusader is pretty legit, but I don't think it'll be enough to stick around in the deck. If I decide to go back to the 3/2 split on Thalia, GoT and Thalia, Heretic Cathar, I'm a bit more interested in this.
Mayor of Avabruck has been consistently underwhelming, hence the exclusion. The lack of Cavern of Souls is due to having more one-mana noncreature spells. Fastlands are better here in my opinion. It is certainly reasonable to think that Vault of the Archangel could be replaced by a Cavern, however.
I was going to do at least a partial sideboarding guide for this deck, but that will have to wait... it's late and modern is a pretty big format. I know I might be horribly wrong with some choices (Champion + Bob + discard + CoCo? Am I a madman?), but so far this feels just a bit more powerful than any of the other humans lists I have tried. Thank you in advance for any feedback, and don't be afraid to push the "accepted norm". That is how scientific progress happens (and sometimes goes 'boink').
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Thraben Inspector
2 Bloodlust Inciter
4 Metallic Mimic
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Abbott of Keral Keep
4 Hanweir Garrison
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Aether Vial
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Shrapnel Blast
Land
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Arid Mesa
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Plains
2 Mountain
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Rest in Peace
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Path to Exile
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Wear/Tear
2 Auriok Champion
This is just an example SB, untested and untuned.
Aether Vial, Thraben Inspector clues, Metallic Mimic, and Pia and Kiran Nalaar thopters give us a critical mass of artifacts that let us take advantage of one of the more busted burn spells ever printed - Shrapnel Blast. We have a pair of Darksteel Citadels to supplement this; the colorless splash is basically free. Mutavault and Blinkmoth Nexus are also considerations, as is Hanweir Battlements.
With a fairly low curve, and the ability to Vial it in, Abbott of Keral Keep gets the main deck nod over Thalia, Guardian of Thraben (still would keep 2-3 of her in SB). The more looks we get at the potent burn spells we have, the better.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar is a house of a card on its' own. It seems like it would be gas to Vial it in with mana up for the ability. This deck has enough artifacts and reach to make that ability much more relevant than it is in a lot of other decks.
Bloodlust Inciter + Hanweir Garrison might be too cute. Just in case it isn't, we're gonna try it out with Champions, Lieutenants, and Mimics, oh my! If you've seen the standard Boros Humans recently, you know exactly what I mean.
I'm excited to try this out and will post updates as they occur.
I've been running a little more of a midrange list that is inspired by Todd Stevens' value town CoCo from SCG Dallas a couple of months back.
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Renegade Rallier
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
Land
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Temple Garden
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Gavony Township
3 Stony Silence
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Eternal Witness
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Auriok Champion
2 Mirran Crusader
I've been playing this at my lgs twice a week for a couple of months now, with some tweaks here and there to the md and sb. It's been competitive but not dominant. Renegade Rallier has been awesome alongside KotR, Ghost Quarter, fetches, and Horizon Canopy. Even if it's just to get one of the lands back, it feels pretty busted. I rarely lose a game in which RR revolts early. The value of Tireless Tracker + KotR + fetches is absolutely ridiculous in the mid and late game. Still... I think humans can do better. I think I'd rather be more all-in aggressive Boros or a bit more midrange abzan. I'll post my take on how I would initially build these lists, then I will eventually build, test, and refine these lists if they prove to be somewhat competitive with tier 1-1.5 strategies.