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  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    We also got exclude which is an interesting card. Probably not good enough for us to play, it's yet another option from this set.

    I'm very excited about trying Fact or Fiction
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    I was going to ask the same thing. Its obviously strong but can we afford to play it. According to an article from 2011 on CFB by Caleb Durward. (I don't know if we can post links to it but it easy enough to find) 15 is the minimum number of blue cards to make force of will playable with the alternate casting cost. My list plays 16 and I believe most people are around there as well.

    Like a lot of other nice blue cards spoiled in War and now Modern Horizon's I think its better against us than for us. The Card disadvantage and only costing zero on our opponents turn is rough.I definitely want to try it when it is released though.


    Side note. I played in a SCG IQ this weekend and came in 9th. Damn Tie breakers, was hoping to have my list posted. I felt pretty good about it other than running 3 negates. I wish I would have had 3 Spreading seas or 2 seas /1 negate. The meta was nearly 25% Tron, 25% Humans.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Thanks for the reply! I'll definitely give it a shot. Those were just my initial thoughts, I've wanted to try them for a while and you seeing that they at least show some amount of promise, is encouraging. I can see the use of 3 EE in the 75 for sure. Seems like a solid fit especially with the color fixing from all the eggs.

    I definitely forgot that just using them to fix for blue on their turn was good. I am used to them in Green tron and just aggressively popping them for green to cantrip.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    With the average list at 9-11 blue sources, a double blue card is not really feasible for us to cast till turn 5. (I used a hyper geometric calc that assumed 10 sources, on the draw and we've cast thirst, or have seen three extra cards. And that gives us ~78% chance)

    The cards do look good and I would love to play Narset, but we'd need drastically more blue sources for us to reliably cast them by turn 3.

    I do think narset is probably better against us than it would be in our deck (even if we shifted our Mana to be able to cast it). The static shuts down our main way to survive through the control mirror. Only drawing one card a turn is probably game ending if not dealt with.

    Ashiok is probably not good in our deck, just like Narset. I personally play a lower number of tutors than other versions (only maps and new Karn). The incidental graveyard hate would be nice but Relic of Progenitus is a card we can maindeck that is on theme and draws cards.


    I think Teferi, time raveler is also a rough card for us to play against UWx control. Losing instant speed is rough. I haven't played against UW since war has been released and I can't imagine that the match up is slightly in our favor anymore. It's probably more so in theirs now (assuming both players are on an even playing ability).
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    It depends on what you are trying to do with the sb. IMO, if you are playing 1 Karn I don't think we can afford to go full silver bullet sideboard. You want good cards that apply in several matchups, just in case Karn is bad. Chalice is a main deck card that you could swap with batterskull if you really want it in your side. Tutoring for chalice with Karn is way too slow. Chalice for one on turn 3 if we have Tron and Karn still seems too slow for it to really effect the game in a meaningful way.

    With siding Karn out. With your board I don't think you can afford to regardless of the matchup. With 2, in aggressive matchups I would definitely side one out. He is pretty poor as a turn 4 play, even with tron (and I assume an island). I'm playing one Karn in my maindeck and siding him out in anything that attacks aggressively. He is much better against artifacts, slower combo and control.


    @Barrin
    I've too thought about going crazy and playing stars and spheres. I think it's definitely something to explore but I fear it just makes us a worse green tron. We are MUCH weaker to Stony silence and Chalice of the void if we go into the 10+ 1 Mana artifacts. I do think if we go down that route you might as well go all in and play the 3-4 relics main too. This should allow us to cut down even more lands and probably play 21+-1

    Doing that though will probably cut back the usefulness of condescend as we'll probably be more focused on quick Tron, rather than delaying till we can out grind anyone with our Tron Mana. However the useful of Karn Liberated goes up in our deck if we do this. He wins a lot of games if just played on turn 3.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    At 4 Mana I'd rather play hieroglyphic illumination because we can always cycle it for 1 Mana to avoid counterspells or have an early turn 1 play. *Edit* If it needs to be four Mana and sorcery speed, Karn, Scion of Urza is a better card. He draws more cards if he doesn't die right away and can be a wincon all on his own.


    There is certainly a lot of cards in war of the spark for us to try out though. I have a feeling Blast Zone or Karn, the Great Creator will be Mainstays in the deck.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Biggest difference between Karn, Scion of Urza and new Karn is that Sion of Urza provides a way to get to tron as well as being good once we have it. The Great Creator is more like a fancy (very fancy) and weird fabricate. That is not really true, my point is that he most likely wont help us hit land drops. The card advantage is very limited in the sense that we need to have the cards in our sideboard. We really don't want to put darksteel citadel in our sideboard, or maps or talismans for that matter. I'm not sure he's good in our deck, I think I will have to try him out first.



    I'm not trying him as a value engine but more as a win condition. I'm trying him as basically a mindslaver in our deck. Obviously not very good the turn we can cast it, but if we can cast and crack the game usually ends. I see this Karn in that kind of slot in the deck. Most games that grind we end up winning anyway, regardless of having a Karn, Scion of Urza or other walker. I'm trying him out now, but I never had issues in a long game before playing him.

    I do think it is right to probably only play 1 Karn, the Great Creator because he does not got us into the end game. He doesn't stabilize a board state like oblivion stone or wurmcoil engine, but can win a game pretty quickly. He might end up being a win more rather than a card that actually helps us win games more consistently, but it is too early to tell.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    I think Karn, The Great Creator is definitely good. I've been trying him out on xmage beta and with proxies. I do think he will earn a spot in the list. I still cannot decide if the more traditional style or going full control is better with him. both versions obviously have their own reasons for being good against certain archetypes and being poor against others.

    I've been trying


    I don't own any Chalice of the void otherwise I would find room for at least 3 of them in the 75 (probably in the main, potentially as replacements for the Relics). New Karn does feel great as a win condition or a way to stablize the game even if he were to die. He feels very strong but is definitely an embarrassing topdeck in the early game, if you don't have tron mana he really doesn't do much. After 6 mana or if you feel you have two turns (for O stone) he feels extremely strong.

    I think the 75 of this list probably needs some more tuning but it definitely feels strong. I'm curious to see what the more accomplished U tron players will do with the new Karn, if he is even played at all.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Oh it's definitely not better than EE it's just another potential utility land. I'm excited to try it. Hopefully it's good but it not hitting zero cmc is a definite downside.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    What do y'all think about that new EE/Rachet bomb land that just got leaked?

    Explosion Zone* (pending translation)

    Explosion zone etbs with 1 counter.

    tap: add a colorless

    XX tap: put x counters on Explosion zone

    3 tap: sac, destroy all nonland permenants with cmc = the number of counters.

    This seems extremely strong as a utility land in our deck or Amulet.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    I think if this Ugin costed 5 and had one more loyalty it'd be playable. The delayed card draw is okay, and a 2/2 blocker/attacker is nothing to scoff at. He is kinda comparable to Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in this regard. But since we don't always have tron by turn 3, even turn 4 sometimes he is considerably worse. I don't think we'll get as much out of the static ability as much as decks like eldrazi Tron, or probably legacy decks.

    I think he might be worth testing but probably isn't a good fit in our deck. Just seems a little slow for us.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Quote from Crackman »
    Howdy.
    I am on a long journey to settle finally down with one modern deck (played mostly jank + burn + ad nauseam) and UTron is high on my list at the moment.
    I am mostly playing on Mtg online and here is my question:
    How painful/hard is it to play this deck against the clock? Considering the mindslaver lock finish too.
    Same goes for paper magic, but before investing in paper, I will play on mtgo anyways.

    PS: I was very impressed and a little surprised with the content to this deck, the overall quality on the primers
    and from the fan-/playerbase is pretty high.


    It's not that hard to play against the clock, I play this deck in paper and on xmage. I play with a 30min clock on xmage and even in a control mirror I normally have 10minutes left on my clock when the game ends (opp with less). In paper people usually concede to the mindslaver lock. Its kind of like the looping teferi rule in standard but you can call a judge and say this is the only action I'll do for the rest of the game, They should award you the game if you are not in extra turns.

    Welcome to the deck though if you decide to pick it up Smile It's a fun and rewarding deck to master. As you have also seen there is a ton of different ways to build it, all with their varying levels of upsides and downsides.

    Quote from flasp »

    I believe Shoktroopa was correct in not opting for the sort of hard control that overloads on answers - the way UW attempts to play in Modern or the way Esper is now in Standard. The card quality is just not there in modern in Mono U + Colorless + Phyrexian mana, which is what we have at our disposal.
    You can play it of course, just like you can play anything else in Modern, but I don't believe it is the all around best version of the deck. I have watched Pierakor and Shoktroopa play their lists for dozens upon dozens of hours and Shok's deck is just more consistently flexible. He is the better player of course, but that is besides the point - with Pie I find that he either wins hard or loses hard, which is how I envision his deck working in the first place, based on the card choices he makes.

    I see you did a lot of research here, so you are probably right, but man i hate tapping out on turn 2 to cast Talisman of Dominance! Opp is probably going to make a huge play on their turn (after all, many Modern games are decided in turn 2 or 3) and then i can't react to it.

    Anyway, new version of the deck featuring Karn, the Great Creator will probably be more similar to Shoktroopa's, so I better get accustomed to those talismans Sweat

    Btw I like this Shoktroopa's vs Pierakor's version of the deck debate, keep it going Wink


    Yeah, I hated tapping out turn 2 for a talisman and then only having the one mana on my opponents turn 2 or 3. After cutting them over year and a half ago, I don't miss them and have replaced talisman with better cards. My usual pitch to TFK is walking ballista or Mindslaver because they have higher upside late game but in certain matchups useless and better off in the yard.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    Karn, the Great Creator is confirmed now. I am definitely looking forward to what we as an archetype can do with this.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    I would say so, yes. But It also depends on how the meta shifts with all these new walkers and edicts. If midrange and control become more popular I would say maybe. A 2/2 beater has won me games against control because they refuse to spend path or bolt on a 10 turn clock, when we have cards like wurmcoil engine or sundering titan. I'm not currently playing either but If izzet phoenix continues to be the top deck, I would definitely play it. the 2/2 is less relevant, and Karn, the Great Creator allows more flexibility while still creating a troublesome permanent.

    Mobilized District is Definitely an interesting card but I don't if thats the kind of control deck we are. Adding a colorless land that doesn't inherently progress our plan (e.g. cards like field of ruin, tectonic edge, gemstone caverns, academy ruins)are pretty hard to play if we are trying to stay alive. If mishra's factory is printed in modern horizons I'd be more interested in that. The activation cost always costing 1 vs 4 (most of the time) is a real cost. Even if factory was legal in modern I still doubt we would play it. Typically decks that are proactive in destroying the opponents hand or game plan are more likely to play aggressively slanted lands. We see this in legacy standstill,pox, sometimes 4c loam or D&T. Modern 8rack, GBx, merfolk. We have more maindeck win condtions than the celestial colonnade decks. Perhaps the new Karn lets us try something like this with Mobilized District, but I still don't think we can imitate them well enough for it be a viable strategy in our deck.

    Quote from hinterweltler »
    Currently, Chalice of the Void is at an all-time high in terms of meta-gaming. I see lots of Burn, Phoenix and UWx Control / Combo plus many others where Chalice on 1 or 2 is close to a hardlock. See the list on my profile for reference, and those additional Artifacts are nice to have with 2+ Karn.
    Towards Gemstone Caverns and 23 Lands: I remember the spreadsheet some pages back with the related win percentage for most cards, and if I recall it right, the Caverns is a 3-4% boost, depending on how many times we are on the draw. I won a short tournament a while back because I always had it when I was on the draw. And with 2 Talisman of Dominance which either ramp for a T3 Karn (or even Ugin with natural Tron - happened!) and growing the Constructs while providing colored mana, 23 Lands are enough.


    I believe it was done by thinkr in here.*
    Spreedsheet

    Obviously the mana acceleration is nice but is it needed? I cut both of those cards over a year ago and haven't missed them. The data did trend towards caverns being good but not significantly. That spreadsheet currently having it at .31% overall win increase and talisman and a actually 0%. If we go based on this treasure mage and snapcaster mage both have significant negative correlations of losing when in the opening hand. (snapcaster less so).

    *Please tell me if I am interpreting the data wrong. I'd rather be wrong and know about it, rather than wrong and not.
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on [Primer] MonoU Tron - "The well-oiled machine"
    I definitely have been playing tons of creatures in the main and would probably do the same when playing new karn. I'm on 3 wurmcoil engine and 4 walking ballista. Theoretically Wish board is sweet I just don't know how viable, I too would be on the more midrange package.

    I've been trying out 3 relic of progenitus main on xmage and dumping snapcaster. It feels nice I just don't know yet how good overall it is. I don't have enough data to back it up but winning against Phoenix and dredge definitely feel more achievable.
    Posted in: Control
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