Witchbane Orb is almost a auto win if you can get it down. and especially vs control most of my wins were t5 or later. and green decks have acceleration so definitly that should be the go to SB card unless you running white.
Hi guys!
First of all, I would like to give some excuses here because yeseterday I played very poorly in more than one occasion but I managed to win because of my topdecks (for example G1 VS Generalissimo, I didn't really deserve that win honestly).
Btw, I'm writing for talking about Burn: that deck is broken at the moment. No way. It could kill on T3 with a good hand and, in many cases, on T4 with also having access to cards like skullcrak and sulfuric vortex that are really good against hate cards that opponents could have. I am firmly convinced that we need to ban AT LEAST two pieces of that deck. Which ones we can discuss on; but really, if we don't want the meta to shift to Burn decks VS Anti Burn decks, I think we need to take an action. Note that banning 2 pieces still leaves a very consistent deck.
i'd give it atleast a week to see how the format shakes out before I was calling for anything to be banned but yeah I said a while back that fireblast might need to be banned if it every came back in.... and then rift/lightning/spike all came in with it...
I mean we come from ceph being the big bad to something new. Burn is slower than ceph ever was so lets see how it "settles" people know now what is coming sunday.. so lets see how it goes first. But without having Leyline of Sanctity it may end up being too strong.
But in the same breath I should have lost to Reanimator I god drew him 2 games in a row and he didn't get a reanimate target fast enough I should lose that match 60-70% of the time... we have reanmiator that can lock you out of all spells on turn 2 if you don't draw a hate card.. last weeks final literally ended with me mulling to 4 for a void in the finals because i had a 0% win chance vs Reanimator without drawing void.. also GW should have a good matchup vs Burn. you drew like ***** both games and I drew godly. Dromoka's command can blowout a burn deck just as bad as that skullcrack blew you out. So idk give it a week or 2 see what happens.
All Is Dust (could this card lead to cloudpost being banned eventually?)
All is Dust has been in the format before (with Eldrazi titans even). It's very strong, but I don't know that it is a ban worthy deck, or even from an all colorless deck. The lands are pretty consistent, but we're going to have a good RDW again. Price of Progress should keep things in check.
I'm interested to see if anyone does anything with Paradoxical Outcome. I might try something janky with that card.
edit: why is Chief of the Foundry listed as "rotated out" while also being listed as legal from Kaladesh? The legality checker says it's legal.
well it was legal once your right but it was legal before Farfishere Mono U Post deck was thing. Honestly when his deck won 3 out of 4 tourneys the only way I felt his deck could get better was All is Dust coming back.... We will see how it goes though not many people play the deck because its boring not because its not good so we will see if this boost in power gets more people playing it again.
Dude this new rotation has me so Hyped I already built 3 decks tonight :).
Saheeli Rah Delver
JundVine
Zoo 2.0
and have a TEPS deck that was always just a bit slow and missing tendrils.... still probably too slow but its really fun to play and can win turn 3 with god draw but usually turn 4/5.. Even If I feel RDW might be broken I think ill leave that for someone else to play i got amazing creations to bring
HOw is gorilla shaman rotating in, that card is 16 dollars?
When posting cards into the mtgsalvation forums when a card is mispelled it finds the closest card. Its not gorilla shaman. its something else similar. When I was originally typing Birthing Pod into my list I typed Breeding pod and it auto corrected to breeding pool....
Definitly watch RDW...... and be ready to ban something if needed because we should have almost the full legacy burn deck in heirloom..... and unlike real legacy we don't have Leyline of Sanctity to stop it..... Remember when we were talking about ban's about 2 weeks ago and I mentioned RDW and people wondered why. I was worried about lightning bolt and Fireblast coming in alone..... didn't even think about Spike/Rift Bolt getting within range too..
Also alot of good stuff coming in look forward to seeing what happens.
There's Restore Balance and it's price is around 50 cents, so you never know.
Also, Eggs, like stated previously.
The problem with that is Zuran orb itself... I wanted to play Balance Garg if it ever cycled in before garg spiked due to dredge..... Restore balance takes 6 turns to use and cheating it out with cascade is a crapshoot since you would have to run Zuran orb which can fizzle a cascade.. Basically Eggs+zuran orb=good combo deck Restore balance=jank deck that would be about 4 turns too slow but could be used as a control finisher. UW control with zuran orb+restore balance could be interesting.
Ok, I gotta admit that your version is more resilient than mine. And I really enjoied that build, so, point taken. It's a shame you created such a wonderful piece of art only to make it banned.
But I gotta ask: with the appearance of this Caw-Scourge-Exile-thingy, what decks can beat it if cephalid leaves? I know the deck is new and people haven't had much time to come up with answers, but it seems to me that fast combo decks are it's natural predator. Linear and fair decks hardly stand a chance against the new deck, and against control decks it has a lot more recursion so I don't see how that goes in favor of the straight control deck.
Also, you have a point in unbanning more weapons to the new cawbladeless deck. Let's not forget that Misthollow Griffin is banned because of this deck. We'll have to watch this one closely.
ps: I love the fact that you guys can come up with such great decks, but can you guys keep it down in order for fair decks to have a chance?
Edit: Littlefield, I wanted to post something before yesterday's event so some cards weren't included in my post because of different reasons. DoJ, I don't know how to feel about this. Piledriver I forgot to include. Dark Ritual, not gonna happen. I won't unban it.
Edit2: As it looks right now, Piledriver is expensive for the format. And about the Eternal Scourge deck, would it be possible to build a black version with Lost Legacy? The deck would gain maindeck cards against combos, like twin and against control with few finishers.
I think cawblade is beatable. I think black decks with hymn can possibly get far enough ahead early (we saw it lose to BR today albeit on time but the BR deck was 2 turns from winning. Uh GW decks and zoo with stuff like smiter and such could probably find a way too (BLOODBRAID IS COMING BACK SOON!!!!!) and sideboard cards to stop the recursion with the land (Pithing Needle is rotating back in!!!!!!!) I think Combo like high tide/splinter can start running counters to protect themselves while going off (Which also slows the deck a turn or so Which is not a bad thing Look at IRL legacy. every control deck runs 4-8x Duress/sieze/cabal therapy) and some even run counters. That is what keep them in check. If force of will was ever banned in legacy it would turn into turn 2 kill format and people wouldn't run anything but combo. I'm beginning to think Cawblade/Hymn might actually be our FOW's.. is hymn broken yes. but it keeps people honest and I think more combo decks will start running counter distruption (duress/counters)
Also If someone builds Mono red "the right way" I think a true Mono red burn deck (WITH VEHICLES) could be viable in this format and is a deck like cawblades natural enemy. I mean you can take control of the board all you want but eventually you run out of counters for a bolt to the face every turn. IE blistering firecat/that new vehicle that hits the turn it comes into play/hellspark/burn spells and just being Mono red burn.
and i'm not discounting the deck we have now suicide red I think if Cawblade came up against suicide red and suicide red wins the dice roll it wins the game. if it loses the dice roll it still wins the game if cawblade doesn't drop a t3 scourge.
Also as to bans Zuran orb is a really good card. and will help makes eggs better. 4x zuran orb to sac your lands before second sunrise. but its not good enough to stay banned when eggs has only won 1 event in like 7 months. DOJ I also don't see as a problem but thats up to TLR I mean its no different than white sun zenith vs 99% of decks.
After seeing CAWblade back (AND THE POWER OF SPELL PIERCE in my deck) I think that i'm again flip flopping like a politician.
Hymn is fine in our format and if ceph and hymn were both banned that CawBlade deck is the real deal..... I wouldn't unban FoF or Counterspell just for fear of making cawblade even more broken. cause that deck just takes control of any "fair" deck in the games ive watched. Its not "broken" to the point of banning but its definitly a new tier 1 deck for sure.
Now again we put 2 copies of Ceph into top 4.... My only loss was to the other ceph My Version is about 1/2 turn slower than the suicide version I mana screwed game 1 He turn 2'ed me game 3. My version is built to beat the field as you could see from watching my deck my version of ceph has more answers with tutoring up answers and is not always stopped by graveyard removal I went off through 3x Tormod's crypt's today. Only thing I scopped to was a Engineered plague and that was cause I didn't sideboard in my Enchantment removal vs black being a idiot. I won game 3 removing his hate and through a tormod's.
TLDR I'm still all for banning ceph and Unbanning some things But I think after running 4x Spell pierce maindeck and more counters Sideboard (spell pierce was one of my MVP cards today and I will start running it 4x in alot more blue decks). I think that Hymn might just be ok and I'd be more scared of removing it and having to ban a deck like cawblade out down the road... Blue decks has Spell Pierce, everyone has dodecapod, GW decks have smiter (and soon to be wilt-leaf liege)
BUT CEPHALID NEEDS TO GO... The deck is way too consistant when you start running tutors and counters and silences. You yourself made the argument a few pages back that bans happen for multiple reasons not always based off the power of a card.. In Cephalids case Even if you feel its not too broken (which I disagree with) it is a fragile combo and might be beatable as you say... but I just feel its unhealthy in the format and I think we would have a better format with it gone and outside you I don't think anyone would miss getting turned 2'ed by it... I know I won't and I play the deck.
As to Mono Red I only mentioned banning something in mono red if you were slowing the format or if fireblast came back in. Mono Red is fine right now.
I didn't start advocating for Cephalid getting a ban because it won, that is clearly selective quoting to twist my words and escape the conversation, but sure let's argue. My reasoning for supporting Cephalid getting a ban after saying it isn't too overpowered is because I don't buy the argument that TLR and TheUsualSuspect somehow built an Infect deck that was too unstoppable on turn 2, and I know from speaking with other players I'm not the only one who thinks so. My argument for Hymn getting a ban was word for word the same argument you made for banning Fact or Fiction, I wanted to open a discussion on why if 2 cards that can make it difficult for the opponent to win after they resolve, the higher mana cost gets banned. If FoF was the best card advantage card, Hymn has to be it now. You say it was banned to prevent UW control from returning, but it did not seem (non-statistically) that UW control was not at all oppressive in the previous rotation, so why was it deserving of a ban?
As a final note, if every time people want to have an open discussion you speak down to them like children, you'll soon not have enough people to keep this format going...
I lost on friday to infect beating me on turn 2 on the play..... This was with invig banned.
We didn't build some OP deck all we did was take the current Infect deck that currently is played and makes top 4 and add 4x invig and watch as the 10% chance to win on turn 2/3 became a 50% chance. If you want msg me on MTGO Ill show you the deck I had and you can play against it and see what I mean. Its not the fact that it can win turn 2 its the fact that Infect is already a equal deck to Ceph (when built right). and adding Invig to that made the deck something that if you didn't have multiple removal spells on turn 2/3 you just lost. While also having the ability to play a long game... Like my INFECT version was alot less Suicide compared to TLR's my INFECT version didn't go for the turn 2 kill my Infect version ran 10x maindeck counters. Countered every thing you did to threaten my hand/creatures then on turn 3/4 just swung for 15+infect while I was holding a open counter.
Again though I 100% agree with you that as of late this format has turned from a fun format into more of an arms race. With MBC/splinter twins/high tide/ceph/mono red all winning or taking away your ability to win by turn 4. and maybe the format could use being slowed down a turn splinter/tide/mono red are all just this side of Fair atm MBC and Ceph maybe not so. even zoo and jund decks right now (decks that were the #1 and #2 deck just a few rotations ago are now just too slow). Either that or unban everything and lets arm race.
I'm not sure any lands helped the Cephalid deck, but I agree with everything else TheUsualSuspect said in his last post. Even if just for one rotation we either ban Hymn, or unban Invigorate, it would be interesting to see how the meta responds. I for one am still uncertain UW control would be the terror it was (holica can weigh in, looking back through this thread it seems his deck was the one to beat), since there are so many combos that have blue to keep control in check. I'm not an aggro player, but it seems like the only viable aggro deck after next rotation will be mono-red if Infect does not get Invigorate, and I'm not sure that's good either? I think a major difference between many players and TLR on this is whether infect is really a turn 2 terror that is unbeatable, but we currently do not know that for sure.
I left Invig off my List of cards that would be slower than what we currently have for a reason. I don't feel invig being unbanned is a good thing for the same reason I think Ceph with the new lands will be broken.. As I said the deck goldfishes turn 2 as much as Ceph... while also being able to go turn 3 or turn 4 after sitting back on counters if your not playing vs a deck you need to race... TLDR Infect is the total package Ceph is a 1 trick pony.
Again my list of cards on banned list that would make 0 difference if unbanned because we already have decks that are faster/better than anything they would make.
Zuran Orb (1 trick pony in a restore balance deck)
Dark ritual (no entomb= not fast enough to matter doesn't fit into any current combo deck, MBC would run it as 4x and maybe a suicide black deck but nothing faster than t3)
Tendrils (would give eggs a kill but still be turn 4 deck) Might be too strong in high tide if it could get black mana.
Worldgorger dragon (if your gonna leave turn 2 Blow your load combo's in with ceph why not just unban dragon its just as easy to stop and needs more cards to go off than ceph)
Decree of Justice (White sun zenith is 100% supior and control is so bad right now the only time DOJ ever was broken was in control Mirrors and I mean i'd rather have a mirror breaker than 60 min game 1's)
Misthollow Griffen (we have a better version of it already and its seeing 0 play)
Sword of the Meek (even if it ever came into price the combo isnt fast enough to matter in our format)
PileDriver (Goblins are bad. Goblins are slow RDW right now is 1 turn faster than even the best goblin draw) Fecundity goblins is the only viable goblin deck and it would not even run it.
Counterspell (if hymn is not too broken for the format counterspell isn't)
Fact or Fiction. I think I was wrong.... Although I 100% believed what I said at the time and I think that Berlin should have banned FOF back in the day to stop UW control when it was the God deck. Right now FOF might just be a turn too slow to matter.... (although Counterspell and FOF could never both be unbanned together)
As to lands Any ceph deck I ran would have 4x yavimaya coast.. Sylvan tutor is just too good to not run and I 100% believe the newer lists that are ran are inferior to the list i ran when I ran it 3 color. UGW Ceph is in my opinion 100% the Superior version. Eventually aether hub will drop in price as kaladesh is mass opened and when it does its a 4x in any ceph deck too. If you want me to bring back my version and win a couple events I can.... Its just the deck is so boring... But if its the best deck in the format and Yavimaya coast comes into the format I will run the deck and win a event or 2 to show what I mean.
Guys, like I said, I would announce the door prize winner from event 10.113 here (last sunday). The winner was Generalissimo.
As for what littlefield said in the post above, I will wait to see if anybody wishes to reply before answering myself.
I fully agree with his setiment... 6 months ago I thought cephalid was fine 6 months later we have So many more CIP untapped lands and with pain lands coming in next rotation Ceph went from a turn 3 deck to a turn 2 deck. For the same reason Invig is gone and the same reason Ooze is gone I think ceph should go too.....
Now as to the future of this format We are at a impasse here with the price drops and how much stuff will come in next rotation. You can either A just say **** it and leave everything unbanned and even unban more Zuran orb and Dark Ritual I still believe both would be slower than what we already have and if anything Dark ritual sets up ways to beat ceph. Turn 1 ritual Engineered plague is GG vs ceph.
Or B you can do what WOTC did with modern. and just ban everything broken and work backwards if needed.
IE ban Ceph, Ban Hymn maybe ban something from mono red and ban everything else that comes close to winning before turn 4 while also making sure control cannot take over games in the now slower format. IE ban cloudpost if needed.
I would like to lean more towards the first option however I still believe that hymn and ceph both need to go. and that piledriver/ritual/zuran orb/misthollow Even DOJ are all weaker than decks we currently have the format.
Yeah, turn 1 Dark Ritual -> Entomb (Iona) -> Animate Dead / Exhume kills most decks. Don't think I will unban Dark Ritual
You mean the former like 10 dollar card entomb? that will 99% never cycle into and is only 90 cents (and sold out) due to panic selling after treasure chests and EMA...
Entomb shouldn't be in the format with or w/o dark Ritual. I just mean would be nice to have combo decks that are viable in this format. Like eggs or Storm or something.... Without tendrils or Ooze Dark Ritual would be fine... Zuran orb would be fine too. Worst case for Ritual is like turn 1 Ritual Buried alive turn 2 reanimate. But how is than any differt from turn 1 gamble turn 2 reanimate or turn 1 draw 2 disard 2 turn 2 reanimate that I already do lol.
But its w/e i can understand not wanted to even open that door. But idk this format is getting kinda boring All the combo enablers available are banned or cost too much but then you leave OP cards like Hymn in to ruin any creativity people can come up with. Like i'd love to run zuran orb and build an eggs deck or a Restore balance deck. Would it warp the format probably not. Would it be viable and fun to play probably. Will i just stick to running Midrange deck X Y Z because this format has turned into Linear deck A vs Midrange deck B in every top 4 also probably...
Witchbane Orb is almost a auto win if you can get it down. and especially vs control most of my wins were t5 or later. and green decks have acceleration so definitly that should be the go to SB card unless you running white.
i'd give it atleast a week to see how the format shakes out before I was calling for anything to be banned but yeah I said a while back that fireblast might need to be banned if it every came back in.... and then rift/lightning/spike all came in with it...
I mean we come from ceph being the big bad to something new. Burn is slower than ceph ever was so lets see how it "settles" people know now what is coming sunday.. so lets see how it goes first. But without having Leyline of Sanctity it may end up being too strong.
But in the same breath I should have lost to Reanimator I god drew him 2 games in a row and he didn't get a reanimate target fast enough I should lose that match 60-70% of the time... we have reanmiator that can lock you out of all spells on turn 2 if you don't draw a hate card.. last weeks final literally ended with me mulling to 4 for a void in the finals because i had a 0% win chance vs Reanimator without drawing void.. also GW should have a good matchup vs Burn. you drew like ***** both games and I drew godly. Dromoka's command can blowout a burn deck just as bad as that skullcrack blew you out. So idk give it a week or 2 see what happens.
well it was legal once your right but it was legal before Farfishere Mono U Post deck was thing. Honestly when his deck won 3 out of 4 tourneys the only way I felt his deck could get better was All is Dust coming back.... We will see how it goes though not many people play the deck because its boring not because its not good so we will see if this boost in power gets more people playing it again.
Saheeli Rah Delver
JundVine
Zoo 2.0
and have a TEPS deck that was always just a bit slow and missing tendrils.... still probably too slow but its really fun to play and can win turn 3 with god draw but usually turn 4/5.. Even If I feel RDW might be broken I think ill leave that for someone else to play i got amazing creations to bring
When posting cards into the mtgsalvation forums when a card is mispelled it finds the closest card. Its not gorilla shaman. its something else similar. When I was originally typing Birthing Pod into my list I typed Breeding pod and it auto corrected to breeding pool....
all rotating in together......
Definitly watch RDW...... and be ready to ban something if needed because we should have almost the full legacy burn deck in heirloom..... and unlike real legacy we don't have Leyline of Sanctity to stop it..... Remember when we were talking about ban's about 2 weeks ago and I mentioned RDW and people wondered why. I was worried about lightning bolt and Fireblast coming in alone..... didn't even think about Spike/Rift Bolt getting within range too..
Also alot of good stuff coming in look forward to seeing what happens.
The problem with that is Zuran orb itself... I wanted to play Balance Garg if it ever cycled in before garg spiked due to dredge..... Restore balance takes 6 turns to use and cheating it out with cascade is a crapshoot since you would have to run Zuran orb which can fizzle a cascade.. Basically Eggs+zuran orb=good combo deck Restore balance=jank deck that would be about 4 turns too slow but could be used as a control finisher. UW control with zuran orb+restore balance could be interesting.
I think cawblade is beatable. I think black decks with hymn can possibly get far enough ahead early (we saw it lose to BR today albeit on time but the BR deck was 2 turns from winning. Uh GW decks and zoo with stuff like smiter and such could probably find a way too (BLOODBRAID IS COMING BACK SOON!!!!!) and sideboard cards to stop the recursion with the land (Pithing Needle is rotating back in!!!!!!!) I think Combo like high tide/splinter can start running counters to protect themselves while going off (Which also slows the deck a turn or so Which is not a bad thing Look at IRL legacy. every control deck runs 4-8x Duress/sieze/cabal therapy) and some even run counters. That is what keep them in check. If force of will was ever banned in legacy it would turn into turn 2 kill format and people wouldn't run anything but combo. I'm beginning to think Cawblade/Hymn might actually be our FOW's.. is hymn broken yes. but it keeps people honest and I think more combo decks will start running counter distruption (duress/counters)
Also If someone builds Mono red "the right way" I think a true Mono red burn deck (WITH VEHICLES) could be viable in this format and is a deck like cawblades natural enemy. I mean you can take control of the board all you want but eventually you run out of counters for a bolt to the face every turn. IE blistering firecat/that new vehicle that hits the turn it comes into play/hellspark/burn spells and just being Mono red burn.
and i'm not discounting the deck we have now suicide red I think if Cawblade came up against suicide red and suicide red wins the dice roll it wins the game. if it loses the dice roll it still wins the game if cawblade doesn't drop a t3 scourge.
Also as to bans Zuran orb is a really good card. and will help makes eggs better. 4x zuran orb to sac your lands before second sunrise. but its not good enough to stay banned when eggs has only won 1 event in like 7 months. DOJ I also don't see as a problem but thats up to TLR I mean its no different than white sun zenith vs 99% of decks.
"ARE YOU CONVINCED?"
Now onto my real post
After seeing CAWblade back (AND THE POWER OF SPELL PIERCE in my deck) I think that i'm again flip flopping like a politician.
Hymn is fine in our format and if ceph and hymn were both banned that CawBlade deck is the real deal..... I wouldn't unban FoF or Counterspell just for fear of making cawblade even more broken. cause that deck just takes control of any "fair" deck in the games ive watched. Its not "broken" to the point of banning but its definitly a new tier 1 deck for sure.
Now again we put 2 copies of Ceph into top 4.... My only loss was to the other ceph My Version is about 1/2 turn slower than the suicide version I mana screwed game 1 He turn 2'ed me game 3. My version is built to beat the field as you could see from watching my deck my version of ceph has more answers with tutoring up answers and is not always stopped by graveyard removal I went off through 3x Tormod's crypt's today. Only thing I scopped to was a Engineered plague and that was cause I didn't sideboard in my Enchantment removal vs black being a idiot. I won game 3 removing his hate and through a tormod's.
TLDR I'm still all for banning ceph and Unbanning some things But I think after running 4x Spell pierce maindeck and more counters Sideboard (spell pierce was one of my MVP cards today and I will start running it 4x in alot more blue decks). I think that Hymn might just be ok and I'd be more scared of removing it and having to ban a deck like cawblade out down the road... Blue decks has Spell Pierce, everyone has dodecapod, GW decks have smiter (and soon to be wilt-leaf liege)
BUT CEPHALID NEEDS TO GO... The deck is way too consistant when you start running tutors and counters and silences. You yourself made the argument a few pages back that bans happen for multiple reasons not always based off the power of a card.. In Cephalids case Even if you feel its not too broken (which I disagree with) it is a fragile combo and might be beatable as you say... but I just feel its unhealthy in the format and I think we would have a better format with it gone and outside you I don't think anyone would miss getting turned 2'ed by it... I know I won't and I play the deck.
As to Mono Red I only mentioned banning something in mono red if you were slowing the format or if fireblast came back in. Mono Red is fine right now.
I lost on friday to infect beating me on turn 2 on the play..... This was with invig banned.
We didn't build some OP deck all we did was take the current Infect deck that currently is played and makes top 4 and add 4x invig and watch as the 10% chance to win on turn 2/3 became a 50% chance. If you want msg me on MTGO Ill show you the deck I had and you can play against it and see what I mean. Its not the fact that it can win turn 2 its the fact that Infect is already a equal deck to Ceph (when built right). and adding Invig to that made the deck something that if you didn't have multiple removal spells on turn 2/3 you just lost. While also having the ability to play a long game... Like my INFECT version was alot less Suicide compared to TLR's my INFECT version didn't go for the turn 2 kill my Infect version ran 10x maindeck counters. Countered every thing you did to threaten my hand/creatures then on turn 3/4 just swung for 15+infect while I was holding a open counter.
Again though I 100% agree with you that as of late this format has turned from a fun format into more of an arms race. With MBC/splinter twins/high tide/ceph/mono red all winning or taking away your ability to win by turn 4. and maybe the format could use being slowed down a turn splinter/tide/mono red are all just this side of Fair atm MBC and Ceph maybe not so. even zoo and jund decks right now (decks that were the #1 and #2 deck just a few rotations ago are now just too slow). Either that or unban everything and lets arm race.
I left Invig off my List of cards that would be slower than what we currently have for a reason. I don't feel invig being unbanned is a good thing for the same reason I think Ceph with the new lands will be broken.. As I said the deck goldfishes turn 2 as much as Ceph... while also being able to go turn 3 or turn 4 after sitting back on counters if your not playing vs a deck you need to race... TLDR Infect is the total package Ceph is a 1 trick pony.
Again my list of cards on banned list that would make 0 difference if unbanned because we already have decks that are faster/better than anything they would make.
Zuran Orb (1 trick pony in a restore balance deck)
Dark ritual (no entomb= not fast enough to matter doesn't fit into any current combo deck, MBC would run it as 4x and maybe a suicide black deck but nothing faster than t3)
Tendrils (would give eggs a kill but still be turn 4 deck) Might be too strong in high tide if it could get black mana.
Worldgorger dragon (if your gonna leave turn 2 Blow your load combo's in with ceph why not just unban dragon its just as easy to stop and needs more cards to go off than ceph)
Decree of Justice (White sun zenith is 100% supior and control is so bad right now the only time DOJ ever was broken was in control Mirrors and I mean i'd rather have a mirror breaker than 60 min game 1's)
Misthollow Griffen (we have a better version of it already and its seeing 0 play)
Sword of the Meek (even if it ever came into price the combo isnt fast enough to matter in our format)
PileDriver (Goblins are bad. Goblins are slow RDW right now is 1 turn faster than even the best goblin draw) Fecundity goblins is the only viable goblin deck and it would not even run it.
Counterspell (if hymn is not too broken for the format counterspell isn't)
Fact or Fiction. I think I was wrong.... Although I 100% believed what I said at the time and I think that Berlin should have banned FOF back in the day to stop UW control when it was the God deck. Right now FOF might just be a turn too slow to matter.... (although Counterspell and FOF could never both be unbanned together)
As to lands Any ceph deck I ran would have 4x yavimaya coast.. Sylvan tutor is just too good to not run and I 100% believe the newer lists that are ran are inferior to the list i ran when I ran it 3 color. UGW Ceph is in my opinion 100% the Superior version. Eventually aether hub will drop in price as kaladesh is mass opened and when it does its a 4x in any ceph deck too. If you want me to bring back my version and win a couple events I can.... Its just the deck is so boring... But if its the best deck in the format and Yavimaya coast comes into the format I will run the deck and win a event or 2 to show what I mean.
I fully agree with his setiment... 6 months ago I thought cephalid was fine 6 months later we have So many more CIP untapped lands and with pain lands coming in next rotation Ceph went from a turn 3 deck to a turn 2 deck. For the same reason Invig is gone and the same reason Ooze is gone I think ceph should go too.....
Now as to the future of this format We are at a impasse here with the price drops and how much stuff will come in next rotation. You can either A just say **** it and leave everything unbanned and even unban more Zuran orb and Dark Ritual I still believe both would be slower than what we already have and if anything Dark ritual sets up ways to beat ceph. Turn 1 ritual Engineered plague is GG vs ceph.
Or B you can do what WOTC did with modern. and just ban everything broken and work backwards if needed.
IE ban Ceph, Ban Hymn maybe ban something from mono red and ban everything else that comes close to winning before turn 4 while also making sure control cannot take over games in the now slower format. IE ban cloudpost if needed.
I would like to lean more towards the first option however I still believe that hymn and ceph both need to go. and that piledriver/ritual/zuran orb/misthollow Even DOJ are all weaker than decks we currently have the format.
You mean the former like 10 dollar card entomb? that will 99% never cycle into and is only 90 cents (and sold out) due to panic selling after treasure chests and EMA...
Entomb shouldn't be in the format with or w/o dark Ritual. I just mean would be nice to have combo decks that are viable in this format. Like eggs or Storm or something.... Without tendrils or Ooze Dark Ritual would be fine... Zuran orb would be fine too. Worst case for Ritual is like turn 1 Ritual Buried alive turn 2 reanimate. But how is than any differt from turn 1 gamble turn 2 reanimate or turn 1 draw 2 disard 2 turn 2 reanimate that I already do lol.
But its w/e i can understand not wanted to even open that door. But idk this format is getting kinda boring All the combo enablers available are banned or cost too much but then you leave OP cards like Hymn in to ruin any creativity people can come up with. Like i'd love to run zuran orb and build an eggs deck or a Restore balance deck. Would it warp the format probably not. Would it be viable and fun to play probably. Will i just stick to running Midrange deck X Y Z because this format has turned into Linear deck A vs Midrange deck B in every top 4 also probably...