In terms of one thing on the banlist now, that would be legal I THINK is Misthollow Griffin. If I understand correctly from the discussion a few weeks back this has been on the banlist since before much of the current community has been playing, and with Eternal Scourge in the format, there's no reason for the ban.
A general question for TLR: is a goal of the banlist to avoid Turn 2 kills (with counterspell backup)?
Like you said, with Eternal Scourge in the format, I don't see why Misthollow Griffin should be banned. If anyone can think of a reason not to unban it, please say. I can only think of redundancy and I don't think that's what's going to break it.
And yes, turn 2 kills are not desirable if your opponent can't respond to it. If it's a glass cannon build like cephalid, I think it's more acceptable. Yes, I am biased, but when you go all in and your opponent has Faerie Macabre or Ravenous Trap or even cards like Beckon Apparition (Generalissimo uses it), you auto lose the game. Having a counterspell makes a huge difference.
The thing with Ceph is If you wanted you could build it to play around graveyard hate.. Remember my boring version? with 2x Gaea's blessing that took 10+ min to combo off? my opponent would need 2 graveyard hate cards to beat it not 1... I still think ceph will eventually be banned as we get better lands maybe ill start playing it again once we have good lands and win a few events with it or something.
Now as to the ban list. I have another question.....
Why is Dark Ritual banned if the only reason it was banned was to stop a deck that you also banned the main card in? I didn't play back then but like Storm and combo decks are literally unplayable in our format and that card might actually add some ability for combo decks not named Cephalid to become viable. It could also be interesting To maybe shake up the format a bit.
Something like
Banned
Hymn
Unbanned
Dark Ritual
Zuran Orb
Might be interesting to shake up the format a bit. Again I don't know exactly why it was banned i didn't play back then but it appeared from my reading this thread that it was just lumped with the necrotic ban. and with worldgorger already banned all I could see Dark ritual doing would be Making MBC better (evened out if hymn was banned) and maybe making some turn 4-5 combo decks into viable turn 3-4 combo decks like eggs. Or dusk mantle combo.
I am talking Dodecapod, and that card has been seeing play main deck the last few weeks. Turn 1 game 1 vs my ravens crime for instance. These decks have not been winning the tournaments or top 4 despite playing 6-8 main deck discards men and several pro black creatures despite 50% of the field playing Hymn. I do agree that getting and playing wilt-leaf is fine, as is smiter. That doesn't change having to stack a bunch of cards and hope that the numbers line up in the lottery of play against hymn + have it be in hand at same time as random discard, get it to work thinking.
Its not winning because no one is running the right shell for these decks.... This format right now is perfect for a GW hatebear style zoo deck.... Maybe ill show up running one this week... Wilt-leaf Liege coming in with the rotation also is HUGE... Most people don't realize this but that zoo deck I built back in the day actually started with 4x Wilt-Leaf Liege in it Hence the 1 mana G/W split cards. But then I found out it wasn't legal literally once I had the 60 cards finished Hence why my zoo deck Version 1 that won had like 2x Berserk 1x Boros Charm 1x random 1 drop creature....
That card is a Game changer and will fit in many decks that people already run Zoo/GW/Mono White/Mono Green That card is just that good. I do feel the randomness of hymn vs Wrench is huge though. Mono Black would become an auto loss vs decks like that with Hymn Replaced with Wrench.
Gumgod: considering you have access to free mana pump spells, damage is not an option on how to kill the creature. Condemn they already have counterspell/vines backup. So either you have StP and plains in your opener or you are in really bad shape.
TheUsualSuspect: I understand what is the problem that people see in Hymn now. My question is why now? Nothing in the deck has changed. Why is it such a big problem now when it wasn't before? Other decks received some new cards while MBC hasn't and all of a sudden the deck deserves a ban?
The Deck doesn't need a ban.... Like I dont even think MBC is that good lol if i had played in the last few weeks I got tons of decks i'd bring to this field that could beat MBC. how soon you forget i'm the king of stopping hymn..... Ive complained about hymn for the last year from the days i was showing up every tourney. If you remember my zoo deck that warped the meta for a bit was Directly designed and honestly made because of hymn decks. Jund was only the #1 deck for as long as it was because of hymn. and now with Pain lands Jund can have turn 2 hymn consistently, Azban can have turn 2 hymn consistently. even BW control now can all but guarentee turn 2 hymn mana.
The only Reprise I see in sight is Wilt-Leaf Liege has a good chance of cycling in. Giving any green/white "fair" style deck access to 8-12x Come into play cards to stop hymn... Like once BBE and wilt leaf liege come in I'm playing Zoo or Bant and just stacking anti Hymn cards lol. Again I don't think Hymn is an unbeatable card. I just feel it "warps" the meta of Heirloom to where you either have to have something to beat it or you lose to it and I just don't feels that in the spirit of a event like this. I think the Meta as a whole would be more diverse but we will see come next rotation what happens.
To Gum. The problem wasn't a turn 2 kill ceph can turn 2 kill the problem was you could turn 2 kill WITH a Counterspell backup... You only needed 1 mana to berserk after invig while having 1 mana to hold open a Counterspell. I tested the deck too before it rotated in and my verson ran 9x Counterspells Maindecks with an average Goldfish kill of turn 2.5 (50% of that time with counterspell up)
You don't just need a berserk, you need a creature (There's only one that costs 1 mana). So your opener needs to be a Glistener Elf, an Invigorate a Berserk and a counterspell (Spell pierce or Dispel). That's four cards, plus two lands that make appropriate mana AND enter untapped. That sounds like a god hand to me.
in a format like this were CIPT lands are something that alot of people run due to how bad our mana bases are... no deck should be able to win on turn 2. I'm even for ceph being banned once painlands come in and the deck gets a half turn faster FWIW.....
Turn 1 Forest glisterner
turn 1 opp CIPT land
Turn 2 Invig/Might Berserk gg?
yeah sounds really fun for player B for a PRE event...
Infect is a deck you aggressively Mulligan too. So you talk about needing 4 cards.. you run 16 lands and 4-8x 1 mana draw spells on top of it. You may not have a turn 2 kill every time but 90% of the time you will have atleast a turn 3 kill in hand. and as soon as you know your opponent cant beat you on turn 2-3 you can slow roll it with your counterspells and just remove any chance of losing. Like If i tested Infect vs MBC or Jund I could win 90% EZ. its just not being dumb and knowing what decks you need to race turn 2-3 and knowing what decks you can just sit back and then go yeah ill drop this ill counter that ill counter that and GG.
Gumgod: I assembled UG and monoG decks before the ban and tested them. Both decks could kill way too consistently on turn 2 with protection. There's a huge difference between loosing a game and getting set back either by lands or cards in hand.
For the players that ask for a hymn ban, I need to ask you something. Looking at the decks from previous events, and specifically at last night top 2 decks, all of their cards have been available for such a long time. The deck was being played when I started playing heirloom and since then it lost Desecration Demon (while it's bugged) and Lashwrithe (for some time). Nothing was added to the deck, so why was it ok to play back then and now it's ban-worthy?
Gumgod: I assembled UG and monoG decks before the ban and tested them. Both decks could kill way too consistently on turn 2 with protection. There's a huge difference between loosing a game and getting set back either by lands or cards in hand.
For the players that ask for a hymn ban, I need to ask you something. Looking at the decks from previous events, and specifically at last night top 2 decks, all of their cards have been available for such a long time. The deck was being played when I started playing heirloom and since then it lost Desecration Demon (while it's bugged) and Lashwrithe (for some time). Nothing was added to the deck, so why was it ok to play back then and now it's ban-worthy?
To Gum. The problem wasn't a turn 2 kill ceph can turn 2 kill the problem was you could turn 2 kill WITH a Counterspell backup... You only needed 1 mana to berserk after invig while having 1 mana to hold open a Counterspell. I tested the deck too before it rotated in and my verson ran 9x Counterspells Maindecks with an average Goldfish kill of turn 2.5 (50% of that time with counterspell up)
To TLR the problem Ive had with hymn is playing against a deck with hymn you either have to empty your hand godly fast like a Mono red or just lose to it alot of the time.... Like there would be alot more combo decks that would be viable without hymn (for better or worse on that)
As to banning it I only feel a ban is worthy if Sinkhole comes in..
Just like I feel that Mono Red should get something banned if Fireblast rotates back in..
There is also a good chance we get Bloodbraid elf back So zoo and such could come back to even stuff out so IDK but sinkhole should 100% be banned if it somehow becomes set to rotate in... and hymn again I think should be watched because too many decks are just unplayable because turn 2 hymn you lose. And with painlands coming in Jund/Azban/ect... can now stetch their mana...
Like even Cephalid Might need to get looked at being banned because it gets alot more consistent with a better mana base like the new aether land. Or maybe just every deck gets its power level raised by pain lands and everything evens itself out who knows we will see....
I would agree that Hymn should not be banned, I disagree that mono red needs a banning though. My previous janky combo decks were made to be good against low to the ground aggro, and would consistently fail against Hymn decks or Twin. My Sundial deck was built with facing the latter matches more, and didn't include as much hate for aggro and it showed in those matchups, although both times I played against mono-red I was pretty close to taking a game off of them. Personally I think of it like building a cube, you want mono-red aggro or something similar in a format to keep the combo/control decks at a high level of efficiency. In terms of bannings next rotation, I'd love to see Misthollow Griffin unbanned if it still falls in the price range, it seems like it could be a solid control deck, but not too overpowered.
Hymn needs to be banned Not because of what we currently have but because of what we may have cycling in. If Vindicate Sinkhole Caves Of kolias and Languish all come in I literally just do not want to play... I have a rough draft of the deck together and it would just not be fun to play against and Would complete just remove creature decks from being viable.
The deck would just destroy this format. Combo would have almost no chance against it stripping your hand/killing your lands and Agro decks would just flop.
Rough Outline of the deck would be like
4x smallpox
4x STP
4x sinkhole
4x Vindicate
4x sign in blood
2-4x languish
4x Thalia (main or sb)
If this is the case, then I recommend during the next rotation to ban Hymn to Tourach. If Decree of Justice is banned in all decks, then it is absurd that Hymn to Tourach is allowed (given that the Hymn is both incredibly powerful AND rampant). Decree of Justice, on the other hand, if used in an Azorius or Esper deck, must contend with having no Counterspells, no Facts or Fictions, and an awkward mana base.
Today I wanted to use Decree of Justice in a fair way in a white deck (to give me reach against Draw-Go decks), and yet it was not possible.
(And yes I use Hymn myself in my black decks, but only because the card is completely bonkers and yet somehow legal).
These are my thoughts with all respect to everyone.
its funny you say that cause after looking at the results of last night I was coming here to say the same thing... Ive Felt this way for a while but Didn't really bring it up because I was playing zoo and people were playing zoo so Jund had a true counter... But Honestly Hymn needs to be watched for the next few months. and if jund keeps being consistently the best deck Hymn needs to go. Like hymn is just too destructive of a card and it limits what can be run in this format because turn 2 hymn you just lose sometimes to no lands left or all your gas gone. Overall I think banning it wouldn't kill jund they would just have to go down to 4x duress or 4x the creature one and have to play "fair" cards. rather than having the best discard spell every printed.
Losing BBE didn't really hurt jund as it wasn't that broken in the deck. Losing BBE killed decks like zoo that relied on getting 7-8 power off of it and since zoo is now basically dead the natural counter to Jund (zoo) isn't around. So We can either get to a point where everyone has to run like 4x dedecopod+Smiters off color Just to play vs jund. Or people having to run blue decks with counterspells to stop the early decimation of their hands. The Deck that I may play sunday if I play Is the 2nd and I feel I can beat jund but not everyone is going to have 6+ 1 drop counters to not get raped by turn 2 hymn.
Invigorate is banned. This is a preventive measure as the infect deck is already capable of killing on turn 2 and with this rotation would receive Invigorate and Groundswell and would become much more consistent, so I decided to take out the card I thought as being the worst offender.
I don't agree with this type of banning. Cards should get an opportunity to prove whether or not they are oppressive through playtesting. I have read that you tried it yourself in a deck, but that doesn't really show how it holds up against the current gauntlet of things other people are playing, or that they might build with the new legality list.
goldfish the deck 15 times and get back to me if you still have that opinion..... I was going to play infect this week 100%. it goldfishes a turn 2/3 win 70% of the time. and Even can goldfish a turn 2 with with a dispel backup... Or you know just wait till turn 3 and have double counter backup lol. and this was turn 2/3 goldfish wins while running 10 counters maindeck in the one i was gonna run..
Was there ever any movement on the idea of rescinding the ban on Swords to Plowshares in blue decks?
No? Nothing? Anyone?
Sorry for the late reply, but I haven't been able to use the internet socially this week.
The partial bans will end on the next rotation (which should happen next week if I have the time to do it).
0.o so i can build the UW tempo deck ive wanted to build for 4 months? now i have to show up for the first week this rotation happens.
Might be. Also, consider I said the partial bans will end. I said nothing about whose cards will be banned/unbanned (might be even new bans)
Don't get my hopes up like that Just saying if STP is unbanned you might see some Rattlechains Or a Rafiq of the many from me Ive had UW spirits and Bant both on my radar waiting for the announcement So guess we will see.
What we needed was a red card. Deal 3 damage to target creature or 4/5 damage to target planeswalker for 1R instant.
That would be insane.
I mean at 4 it should be balanced.
Lightning strike and incinerate is 3 damage to target creature, player or planeswalker
So 3 damage to target creature or 4 to planeswalker for 1R would be like that old card that did 3 to target flying creature or 4 to target player. right now red decks have almost no way to deal with planeswalkers other than like double burn spell them and pray.
Hypergenesis could be unbanned. If SSG is ever banned. cause you can't run mox in a hypergenesis deck. so no SSG=turn 3 at best and gives you time to stop it easily.
is everything MBC now? lol where is the 4x smiter 3x pro black elk maindeck Zoo decks with 4x dodecapod sb to make MBC cry? Did I not teach you guys anything about destroying a Discard meta the first time :P.
This mechanic definitely isn't the end of magic; that said, it's kinda killing my hype for this set. Things aren't all bad, of course. The flavor of meld is very interesting, and could be more so as we see more cards; flavor is one of the things I really cherished about original innistrad block, my starting set. That said, there are a few big misgivings I have with it.
Firstly, cards with it will almost definitely see no play in any eternal format (and little play in any constructed format) due to being an automatic 2 for 1 against you, and I'm hoping for interesting Grixis modern cards out of this set (to counteract GW's Standard dominance? I can dream). Of course, there's a lot of room for those in the rest of the set, but this isn't helping anything.
Secondly, it rewards luck too much in limited since you get random upside by seeing enough of both meld cards in a pair, and while I can't profess to be a limited expert, rewarding luck more doesn't sound like a good thing.
Thirdly, (and this is definitely just my opinion) it doesn't look at all like something that magic cards should do and makes me feel like wizards is reaching the "we're out of ideas, gotta do weird things" stage of Mtg's life. In fact Wotc probably isn't nearly there, but this feels a lot like that to me on a gut level.
Overall weirded out and disappointed, but still hopeful for good things out of this set.
You assume but if we get a lets say Big Hexproof creature that is a Meld It could reach Modern easily.
As to this set being a dissapointment before we see it. Most sets see only 2-3 cards Max that becomes modern playable (not including land cycles). And in EDM we already have 1 of the strongest Legacy cards to be printed in a while.... That thalia could see play all the way up to Vintage (remember that Vintage human deck that won that big tourney? This would go right in that. Turn 1 Black lotus Thalia All your fetches come into play tapped then your lands do too..
The thing with Ceph is If you wanted you could build it to play around graveyard hate.. Remember my boring version? with 2x Gaea's blessing that took 10+ min to combo off? my opponent would need 2 graveyard hate cards to beat it not 1... I still think ceph will eventually be banned as we get better lands maybe ill start playing it again once we have good lands and win a few events with it or something.
Now as to the ban list. I have another question.....
Why is Dark Ritual banned if the only reason it was banned was to stop a deck that you also banned the main card in? I didn't play back then but like Storm and combo decks are literally unplayable in our format and that card might actually add some ability for combo decks not named Cephalid to become viable. It could also be interesting To maybe shake up the format a bit.
Something like
Banned
Hymn
Unbanned
Dark Ritual
Zuran Orb
Might be interesting to shake up the format a bit. Again I don't know exactly why it was banned i didn't play back then but it appeared from my reading this thread that it was just lumped with the necrotic ban. and with worldgorger already banned all I could see Dark ritual doing would be Making MBC better (evened out if hymn was banned) and maybe making some turn 4-5 combo decks into viable turn 3-4 combo decks like eggs. Or dusk mantle combo.
Its not winning because no one is running the right shell for these decks.... This format right now is perfect for a GW hatebear style zoo deck.... Maybe ill show up running one this week... Wilt-leaf Liege coming in with the rotation also is HUGE... Most people don't realize this but that zoo deck I built back in the day actually started with 4x Wilt-Leaf Liege in it Hence the 1 mana G/W split cards. But then I found out it wasn't legal literally once I had the 60 cards finished Hence why my zoo deck Version 1 that won had like 2x Berserk 1x Boros Charm 1x random 1 drop creature....
That card is a Game changer and will fit in many decks that people already run Zoo/GW/Mono White/Mono Green That card is just that good. I do feel the randomness of hymn vs Wrench is huge though. Mono Black would become an auto loss vs decks like that with Hymn Replaced with Wrench.
The Deck doesn't need a ban.... Like I dont even think MBC is that good lol if i had played in the last few weeks I got tons of decks i'd bring to this field that could beat MBC. how soon you forget i'm the king of stopping hymn..... Ive complained about hymn for the last year from the days i was showing up every tourney. If you remember my zoo deck that warped the meta for a bit was Directly designed and honestly made because of hymn decks. Jund was only the #1 deck for as long as it was because of hymn. and now with Pain lands Jund can have turn 2 hymn consistently, Azban can have turn 2 hymn consistently. even BW control now can all but guarentee turn 2 hymn mana.
The only Reprise I see in sight is Wilt-Leaf Liege has a good chance of cycling in. Giving any green/white "fair" style deck access to 8-12x Come into play cards to stop hymn... Like once BBE and wilt leaf liege come in I'm playing Zoo or Bant and just stacking anti Hymn cards lol. Again I don't think Hymn is an unbeatable card. I just feel it "warps" the meta of Heirloom to where you either have to have something to beat it or you lose to it and I just don't feels that in the spirit of a event like this. I think the Meta as a whole would be more diverse but we will see come next rotation what happens.
in a format like this were CIPT lands are something that alot of people run due to how bad our mana bases are... no deck should be able to win on turn 2. I'm even for ceph being banned once painlands come in and the deck gets a half turn faster FWIW.....
Turn 1 Forest glisterner
turn 1 opp CIPT land
Turn 2 Invig/Might Berserk gg?
yeah sounds really fun for player B for a PRE event...
Infect is a deck you aggressively Mulligan too. So you talk about needing 4 cards.. you run 16 lands and 4-8x 1 mana draw spells on top of it. You may not have a turn 2 kill every time but 90% of the time you will have atleast a turn 3 kill in hand. and as soon as you know your opponent cant beat you on turn 2-3 you can slow roll it with your counterspells and just remove any chance of losing. Like If i tested Infect vs MBC or Jund I could win 90% EZ. its just not being dumb and knowing what decks you need to race turn 2-3 and knowing what decks you can just sit back and then go yeah ill drop this ill counter that ill counter that and GG.
To Gum. The problem wasn't a turn 2 kill ceph can turn 2 kill the problem was you could turn 2 kill WITH a Counterspell backup... You only needed 1 mana to berserk after invig while having 1 mana to hold open a Counterspell. I tested the deck too before it rotated in and my verson ran 9x Counterspells Maindecks with an average Goldfish kill of turn 2.5 (50% of that time with counterspell up)
To TLR the problem Ive had with hymn is playing against a deck with hymn you either have to empty your hand godly fast like a Mono red or just lose to it alot of the time.... Like there would be alot more combo decks that would be viable without hymn (for better or worse on that)
As to banning it I only feel a ban is worthy if Sinkhole comes in..
Just like I feel that Mono Red should get something banned if Fireblast rotates back in..
There is also a good chance we get Bloodbraid elf back So zoo and such could come back to even stuff out so IDK but sinkhole should 100% be banned if it somehow becomes set to rotate in... and hymn again I think should be watched because too many decks are just unplayable because turn 2 hymn you lose. And with painlands coming in Jund/Azban/ect... can now stetch their mana...
Like even Cephalid Might need to get looked at being banned because it gets alot more consistent with a better mana base like the new aether land. Or maybe just every deck gets its power level raised by pain lands and everything evens itself out who knows we will see....
Hymn needs to be banned Not because of what we currently have but because of what we may have cycling in. If Vindicate Sinkhole Caves Of kolias and Languish all come in I literally just do not want to play... I have a rough draft of the deck together and it would just not be fun to play against and Would complete just remove creature decks from being viable.
Turn 1 STP
Turn 2 Sinkhole/Smallpox/Hymn
Turn 3 Vindicate/Sinkhole/Smallpox/Hymn
The deck would just destroy this format. Combo would have almost no chance against it stripping your hand/killing your lands and Agro decks would just flop.
Rough Outline of the deck would be like
4x smallpox
4x STP
4x sinkhole
4x Vindicate
4x sign in blood
2-4x languish
4x Thalia (main or sb)
its funny you say that cause after looking at the results of last night I was coming here to say the same thing... Ive Felt this way for a while but Didn't really bring it up because I was playing zoo and people were playing zoo so Jund had a true counter... But Honestly Hymn needs to be watched for the next few months. and if jund keeps being consistently the best deck Hymn needs to go. Like hymn is just too destructive of a card and it limits what can be run in this format because turn 2 hymn you just lose sometimes to no lands left or all your gas gone. Overall I think banning it wouldn't kill jund they would just have to go down to 4x duress or 4x the creature one and have to play "fair" cards. rather than having the best discard spell every printed.
Losing BBE didn't really hurt jund as it wasn't that broken in the deck. Losing BBE killed decks like zoo that relied on getting 7-8 power off of it and since zoo is now basically dead the natural counter to Jund (zoo) isn't around. So We can either get to a point where everyone has to run like 4x dedecopod+Smiters off color Just to play vs jund. Or people having to run blue decks with counterspells to stop the early decimation of their hands. The Deck that I may play sunday if I play Is the 2nd and I feel I can beat jund but not everyone is going to have 6+ 1 drop counters to not get raped by turn 2 hymn.
goldfish the deck 15 times and get back to me if you still have that opinion..... I was going to play infect this week 100%. it goldfishes a turn 2/3 win 70% of the time. and Even can goldfish a turn 2 with with a dispel backup... Or you know just wait till turn 3 and have double counter backup lol. and this was turn 2/3 goldfish wins while running 10 counters maindeck in the one i was gonna run..
Don't get my hopes up like that
0.o so i can build the UW tempo deck ive wanted to build for 4 months? now i have to show up for the first week this rotation happens.
I mean at 4 it should be balanced.
Lightning strike and incinerate is 3 damage to target creature, player or planeswalker
So 3 damage to target creature or 4 to planeswalker for 1R would be like that old card that did 3 to target flying creature or 4 to target player. right now red decks have almost no way to deal with planeswalkers other than like double burn spell them and pray.
You assume but if we get a lets say Big Hexproof creature that is a Meld It could reach Modern easily.
As to this set being a dissapointment before we see it. Most sets see only 2-3 cards Max that becomes modern playable (not including land cycles). And in EDM we already have 1 of the strongest Legacy cards to be printed in a while.... That thalia could see play all the way up to Vintage (remember that Vintage human deck that won that big tourney? This would go right in that. Turn 1 Black lotus Thalia All your fetches come into play tapped then your lands do too..