Magic Market Index for October 12th, 2018
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  • posted a message on Classic Heirloom every Friday & Sunday, now in our 12. season!
    Quote from TLR_TLR »
    Not yet. Probably just sunday/tuesday next week.

    if thats the case please wait untill tuesday due to the Pro tour... there are gonna be mad spikes this weekend and then by tuesday the price should settle on all of the new set...

    My new deck only has 1 card that is borderline so i should be fine and its from MM3 Smile
    Posted in: Other MTGO Formats
  • posted a message on Classic Heirloom every Friday & Sunday, now in our 12. season!
    Quote from TLR_TLR »
    Guys, just letting you know that I won't have time to do the rotation this week, so we will have 2 more events before our format rotates.

    did you already get the price list from traders? Just wondering if were able to start brewing based off card prices right now.
    Posted in: Other MTGO Formats
  • posted a message on Classic Heirloom every Friday & Sunday, now in our 12. season!
    Quote from TLR_TLR »
    Hypothetically, what would our format look like without bans? Just price tag? Can you predict a deck that would dominate the format?

    Dark Ritual and Necrotic Ooze CANNOT be in the same format together...

    4x cabal ritual 4x dark ritual

    T1 Ritual Ritual Buried Reanimate Win.....

    Outside that Invigorate Poison can win turn 2. Blazing Shoal decks can win turn 1 with god draw....

    My Ideal Ban list is.
    Blazing Shoal
    Buried Alive (Would be a catch all to all the turn 1 combo's) but allow Dark Ritual to be in the format for Storm/MBC/Ect While slightly making Reanimate Less effective (Although I never even ran Buried Alive in my reanimate lists because I felt the card was too slow)
    Fact Or Fiction (Still slightly too strong I feel)
    Hypergenesis (Auto win vs Any deck that doesn't run counters)
    Cephalid Illusionist (I think Narco should exist for other graveyard decks like dredge)
    WorldGorger Dragon (Maybe still too fast IDK)

    Also last thing about Counterspell Those decks you say could run more counters are currently skipping running a free counter in Miscalc that can be cycled away... Not sure how CS changes that... Too much Stuff hit the board too early in this format to run 10+Counterspells.... You need ways to deal with threats on board and STP is effectively a 1 Mana Counterspell vs Creatures lol.

    Posted in: Other MTGO Formats
  • posted a message on Classic Heirloom every Friday & Sunday, now in our 12. season!
    Quote from Honorbound84 »
    Philosophically my stance has always been to be extremely averse to bannings as the price cap is already like a ban in that it keeps out cards that are too powerful.

    Regarding specific bans, I think the previous host was too aggressive in seeking bans (although I liked him as a person and a host). If you always ban the most important card in the most powerful deck it does nothing to improve format diversity because then a new deck becomes the most powerful deck, then you ban another card, and so the cycle continues ad infinitum. Thus, I think the only logical approach is to ban cards only when specific cards are too powerful (regardless of the powerful level of the decks that run them). Given this criteria, I think the only card that should be banned is Cloudpost as it is the only card that is clearly OP in relation to the rest of the format.

    I have huge concerns with Counterspell and FoF being banned as neither of them have proven to be OP in relation to the field. Both of them have analogues which are not strictly worse. As pointed out by TheUsualSuspect, Mana Leak and such are not strictly worse than Counterspell as they have less restrictive mana cost and do fundamentally the same thing. As it pertains to FoF, there are a lot of comparable card draw spells. The most likely split for FoF is 2/3 meaning you are generally going to get 3 mediocre cards or 2 good cards off them. It is worse than scry 5 draw 2. Compare to a card as mediocre as Foresee (scry 4, draw 2) which has never seen Heirloom play. If Foresee was instant speed, I believe it would see play over FoF. Compulsive Research is probably better and cheaper, although not instant speed either. It's clear that neither Counterspell nor FoF is overpowered. Rather, banning them was an attempt to limit the power of Holica's UW control. However, no card in that deck was OP, rather all of the cards when combined made for a powerful deck in the hands of a good pilot, which was what led to its success. To me this was unfair to Holica. And if you really wanted to hurt UW, the real irreplacable card would be Day of Judgment, which no one wants to see banned because then aggro would be too powerful. So I think banning Counterspell and FoF, and especially the now abolished you can play certain cards but not in UW, was really bizarre and not at all helpful. The banning of Counterspell and FoF hurt a lot of different decks such as Delver and Spirits without truly limited UW (Holica still plays it and wins with it) so at least one of those bans needs to go.

    I also think Misthollow Griffin isn't too powerful, for the reasons stated.

    Many of the bans seem arbitrary to me. Two of the most successful decks in Heirloom of all time were Amar's Quest of the Holy Relic/Tempered Steel deck and now just Tempered Steel. But no one seems interested in banning Tempered Steel because they don't mind playing against it?? Yet a janky combo card such as Necrotic Ooze and a "fair" card like Counterspell/FoF are banned despite not being OP just because people don't want to play against them?? That should not be the criteria for banning. Banning a card should be based on power level alone.

    Additionally, I have a question about Duel Decks. Tezzeret the Seeker now appears to be allowed due to the duel deck price. Does legality include these Duel Decks?


    The Duel deck version is Foil so most likely will not.....

    As to FOF/Forsee if Forsee was instant it would be a 4x in Modern decks. Blue decks want to do everything EOT. I'm not sure FOF is too broken but it definitely would make control decks very Dangerous... Counterspell on the other hand would only replace a functionally identical card being slightly better... I don't think we want/need to make Control decks OP but unbanning Counterspell without FOF would just help the deck become viable. Where as I'm almost in agreement with TLR that both being unbanned together right now would not be the way to go..

    Hence why I suggest Unban Counterspell and then wait and see what happens over the next 3 months and when HOD comes in then take a look at FOF.
    Posted in: Other MTGO Formats
  • posted a message on Classic Heirloom every Friday & Sunday, now in our 12. season!
    Necrotic would look like every mana booster you can get your hand on +buried alive+necrotic+combo.... Can't say its more broken than the reanimator decks we already have and its hated out by what we already have...

    Misthollow should be fine the deck is already viable and all that changes is a 3/3 flyer vs a 3/3 ground.

    Would make my last minute push for Dark Ritual Instead of ooze (both cannot exist in the same format) but pretty sure that will be in vain Frown So my last thought is Counterspell.

    I personally Still think Counterspell would 100% be fine... As I stated before Counterspell x4 Mana Leak x4 is no different than Mana leak x4 Essence scatter/Miscalc x3.... Counterspell is a card that being unbanned does almost 0 to affect decks in the format we play since every other deck is so fast that games are won/lost in the first 5-6 turns and the only time CS is better than Mana leak/Miscalc is after turn 5 and TBH mostly only affects control vs control matchups...

    Like look at how most decks would use counterspell..

    Spliter twins (Going off last top 8 list)
    ran 4x Mana leak
    2x Negate
    -2 negate
    -2 mana leak
    +4 CS

    UW control that won the event (that you are so worried about becomming OP)

    Only ran 7 counters in the whole deck.....
    2 Mana Leak
    2 Negate
    2 Spell Pierce
    1 Deprive...

    Probably would run
    4x CS
    2x Pierce
    1x mana leak

    Jund has like 20 t4's this rotation, WW has like 20 too... Control decks in general have like 2-4 T4's the whole rotation Control decks in this format are significantly behind and adding counterspell or Terminus or Entreat (which I don't even think is worth running without Sensei top) isn't gonna make the deck magically #1 deck..... And tell me how CS is any different than Mana leak/Miscalc in these decks when Jund is stripping your hand by turn 4 or WW has 10 power on the board by turn 3.... Counterspell should be ubanned. FOF should stay banned.
    Posted in: Other MTGO Formats
  • posted a message on Classic Heirloom every Friday & Sunday, now in our 12. season!
    Quote from Farfishere »
    Unban Necrotic Ooze and ban buried alive or either Triskellion or Phyrexian Devourer. Old Necrotic Ooze decks were great to play with and against, it's just the combo that might be an issue, althought without dark ritual I don't think even that is a problem.

    ill be honest I don't think anyone wants another graveyard combo deck in this format. if your doing that just give worldgorger at that point.

    Some poeple want DR to help Decks like deonmag's or belcher or even MBC decks that are now kinda just too slow, Storm doesn't exist because agro decks win 2 turns before any combo can think of going off these days but yet we keep the 1 card that helps combo decks have a chance banned......

    Although if Buried alive went away Both DR and Necrotic Ooze could probably both be unbanned without breaking anything and could help fix any worry of a turn 1 reanimator deck with Dark ritual (which is my only 1 hint of concern that I think can be made about unbanning DR)... I don't see a reason to ban a card to unban another..... Although I still want DR to be given a chance in this format eventually and I will bring that up everytime we talk about bans till the end of time because I seriously believe that DR would not break our format anymore that other things that were/are currently in the format.
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  • posted a message on Classic Heirloom every Friday & Sunday, now in our 12. season!
    Well Misthollow should 100% be unbanned.... there is 0 reason to leave it banned. The deck now has a card that is almost functionally the same and will most likely only find its way in as a 2-3 of.

    But your probably right about everything else...

    IDK just be ready to pull the trigger and ban Tempered steel if artifacts keeps winning every 2nd event after rotation. But I look forward to the new rotation. Hopefully it doesn't need to be banned. but if it keeps winning 50% of tourneys.
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  • posted a message on Classic Heirloom every Friday & Sunday, now in our 12. season!
    Quote from TLR_TLR »
    Just something to consider regarding Dark Ritual: a few months ago, people complained about Hymn and Wrench Mind being both legal. Now imagine your opponent going T1 Swamp->Ritual->Duress->Hymn/Wrench Mind. Of course, it still needs a follow up, but if you play something like Raven's Crime, Pack Rat and Hypnotic, you will always have a very powerful and potentially backbreaking turn 1.

    Of course, there's also the potential to break a combo, but that's the most discussed part. And like I said before, Dark Ritual would be either meh, or would be too strong for our format... I have a hard time imagining a middle ground.

    and this season MBC has won what 0 events the whole rotation??? Meanwhile LOL white I drop everything turn 1 has won like 6 of the last 9 events and is coming up on Cloudpost for tourneys won.

    the players who complained about MBC were the ones who didn't think about how easy it was to beat.... I was like 5-1 vs MBC when everyone else was complaining.... at the same time i played the deck like 4 times and was like 4-1 in MBC mirrors when i played the deck. put a few sb cards that come into play when discarded goes a long way to beating MBC easily. that cool Belcher deck that was played yesterday probably would have won the event with dark ritual instead it just loses to I can win on turn 3/4 every game white like everyone else this season.

    Also most of the complaint about wretched/hymn was that hymn was/is too punishing and makes decks even harder to play because of the cards existence... Whether they go turn 1 duress turn 2 hymn or turn 1 Ritual duress Hymn.. that makes no difference Other than to maybe to give MBC a chance vs LOL i drop my hand turn 1 and win turn 3-4 decks..... Which could easily just start SBing whilt-leaf lieges to punish black decks.

    IDK maybe unbanning ritual isn't whats needed but then where do we go? Artifacts and agro creature decks have just dominated the season for the most part. IDK maybe we just need a rotation.
    Posted in: Other MTGO Formats
  • posted a message on Classic Heirloom every Friday & Sunday, now in our 12. season!
    Quote from AEFabricio »
    I do not think the unban of CS and FoF would be good for the format, without these cards, the UW holica's deck is very hard to beat, with them then it will get virtually impossible to win.

    I know it will generate a lot of discussion yet, but pay attention to the format. UW won 4 of 7 events that you participated in, now imagine this deck with those cards you're asking for unban.

    Along this rotation we had 7 different decks in 1st, little in relation to the past rotation where there were 10 different decks, and I believe that with the unban of some cards, that number will decrease even more.

    Maybe... but we have had 0 MBC decks win and 0 Combo decks that were not Mono Blue...... So tell me how Dark Ritual will cause our format to get less diverse even the Mono Black Storm deck back in the day years ago was a turn 4 kill which you lose on turn 4 in our current format to aggro decks..... As to FOF/CS Again I don't see how 4x CS vs 4x Mana leak changes anything if a blue deck gets ahead of you you lose Either way.... FoF maybe too strong. But Counterspell would 100% do 0 that we don't already have.

    TBH the change i'd like to see to our format is to become actual Classic (Vintage)..... (Frantic search/Sensei top/fastbond/Oath/Treasure Cruise/Dig/ect would all become legal) but that will never happen...
    Posted in: Other MTGO Formats
  • posted a message on Classic Heirloom every Friday & Sunday, now in our 12. season!
    Quote from TLR_TLR »
    I din't say I agree or disagree with his opinion. It's just that I believe an opinion formed after some time of playing a format is likely to be more valuable than one without any knowledge of how the games play out.
    It's like if I commented about the vintage banlist. I could have a correct point of view, and some people might even agree with me, but without playing the format, I could make big evaluation mistakes. That being said, I'm not shooting down his opinion... in fact I like the active approach to the format.

    As for the bans/unbans themselves, I usually let people talk first before adding my personal opinion. So if you talk about it and I don't comment, you know it's probably because I'm waiting for more replies from the rest of the players.

    I will also repeat what I said in previous occasions. I prefer to be a bit conservative in unbanning cards. They were banned before I even played the format, so I didn't see them before the bans. I might not realize their true potential and I prefer to be conservative than to open pandora's box.

    As for the cards being discussed, just a few notes:
    - Sword of the Meek, I also don't see a reason why it should be banned, but no need to take it off the list because it wouldn't play due to the price. If the price drops enough, we might reevaluate to see if anything might break it. If not, unban.

    - Worldgorger Dragon. I don't know if it's more fair than cephalid, or more fragile. The graveyard hate fights both decks the same way. And all the removal in the format kills one of the cephalid pieces, but only StP would stop this combo. Also, current reanimator getting Iona turn 1 is almost unbeatable, yes, but I've killed it with Anarchy before, so there's a way. The other combo auto wins.

    - I don't think giving UW control Counterspell AND Fact or Fiction would be healthy for the format. Again, I'm conservative regarding this.

    - Misthollow Griffin, might see an unban. Although I'm not sure if it would be extra scourges, or if decks would play this over the scourge. or if it would matter...

    Worldgorger animate dead needs 3 cards to go off not 2 like Iona So although you may have a way around Iona 1 in 10 times you also need more setup and better draws to turn 2 a Animate dead.. it needs you to already have a Kill condition in the graveyard to go off with it. or else it endless loops and ends in a draw (which on MTGO pretty sure means you have to concede since its not a true loop its requires a targeting so you either run yourself out of time or concede if you have no win con)

    As to some of the old bans as its been said before Berlin did alot of Overbanning...

    Dark ritual for example was banned with Necrotic ooze to stop the necrotic ooze deck.... the best DR deck I can think of is turn 1 Hypnotic spectre MBC... Is that too broken for Heirloom? DR is the one card i will say i'd love to have unbanned just to see if it could work without breaking the format because its a fun card to build around.

    As to CS/FOF maybe your right only unban 1 of the 2 but IDK CS seems like alot worse than FOF. Any deck that is gonna become too broken with FOF is gonna do it with or w/o Counterspell there are so many cards that are 90% of CS that the 10% that it leaves behind is nothing.... 4x mana leak 4x miscalc is no different than 8x CS in our fast format.

    as to Misthollow. I think you would probably run like 2/2 or 2/3 split or something but the deck isn't good right now in the meta and hasn't even make a t4 in a long time...

    If you want to sometime i'd be willing to Test some of the "potential" decks with you to see if they break anything.
    Posted in: Other MTGO Formats
  • posted a message on Classic Heirloom every Friday & Sunday, now in our 12. season!
    TBH I don't disagree with alot he said..... Granted I havn't been able to play in a while but he's not wrong on Much.

    Fact or Fiction could be unbanned (if you forget the original reason we banned it was to not ban Cloudpost) because FOF covered a wider range....

    Dark Ritual I tried to get you to unban it before... I tried to make its case back when we did the major unban that it should be unbanned unless it proved to ruin the format then reban it.... TBH combo decks in our format are all but useless (other than mono blue High tide).. The decks that dark ritual would help are currently non existant... Suicide MBC/Storm Maybe it could find its way into Reanimator but with the multi color reanimator we have Im not sure we don't entomb for the T1 Ritual Entomb reanimate. I guess the god draw of t1 ritual ritual buried reanimate but thats like 1 in 5000 hands kinda luck..... I think with all the other broken ***** we have DR would not destroy our format.

    Worldgorger Dragon Now I made the argument a while back about why Worldgorger Dragon could be unbanned. TLDR its a Fair Cephalid.... Can the deck win on turn 2 Yes but it requires like 4 cards to do so.... and TBH what is any different than Reanimate going turn 1 draw/discard Turn 2 Reanimate your locked out of all your spells?? Turn 2 draw discard (needing to discard dragon+a kill condition) and then animate dead turn 2 in a combo that can be fizzed with a STP or any graveyard hate.... IDK its alot weaker than cephalid and TBH is Just reanimator without having to attack to win still loses to the same things reanimator already does...

    Counterspell its not that broken.... We are living in a format right now that is so fast that most decks have no late game anyways... Mana leak/Miscalculation in our current format is are basically the same or better than Counterspell... Most control decks are 2 or 3 colors and im not sure counterspell adds much... For gods same we still let Hymn in that can win you the game before your opponent ever see's 2 mana.....

    Sword of the meek (WILL NEVER GET LOW ENOUGH TO EVER CYCLE IN) regardless though its not good enough to be banned lol.

    Misthollow Griffin (Basically a 1-2x Fit into the current Cawblade deck but its not broken enough to still be banned) Not to mention with Food Chain in Legacy Griffin might not even price in.


    Counterspell Unban
    Misthollow Unban
    Meek Unban but will never price in
    FOF Unban
    Dark Ritual (Unban But watch)
    Worldgorger (Unban No less Fair than the current reanimator decks)
    Posted in: Other MTGO Formats
  • posted a message on Classic Heirloom every Friday & Sunday, now in our 12. season!
    I voted yes but only because TBH there is a timer. we already have games go to time without double queing so it maybe adds 5-10 minutes per round... most people who double que don't play slow decks so its usually not a problem but we will see. and TBH i wouldn't mind playing in SPDC again.. since I don't believe SPDC has a double que ruling and it starts 3 hours before our event.
    Posted in: Other MTGO Formats
  • posted a message on Classic Heirloom every Friday & Sunday, now in our 12. season!
    i want MM2017 to come in soon Frown sucks we gotta wait till AHK to do another rotation.

    UW or UWr Miracles might become a viable deck. and a good answer to our WW overlords.

    Terminus+Brainstorm is Nasty. Temporal Mastery is down to $1.24 and if it comes in too.

    we could have

    Temporal Mastery
    And Bonfire of the damned all rotate in.

    Lingering souls is also looking good to rotate in which helps the token decks that has made a few top 4's

    and Zur the Enchanter could Find its way into a New 3 color Version of Prison... I mean if Zur lives long enough to swing once you start grabbing prison cards.
    Posted in: Other MTGO Formats
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