Quote from TLR_TLR »Not yet. Probably just sunday/tuesday next week.
Quote from TLR_TLR »Guys, just letting you know that I won't have time to do the rotation this week, so we will have 2 more events before our format rotates.
Quote from TLR_TLR »Hypothetically, what would our format look like without bans? Just price tag? Can you predict a deck that would dominate the format?
Quote from Honorbound84 »Philosophically my stance has always been to be extremely averse to bannings as the price cap is already like a ban in that it keeps out cards that are too powerful.
Regarding specific bans, I think the previous host was too aggressive in seeking bans (although I liked him as a person and a host). If you always ban the most important card in the most powerful deck it does nothing to improve format diversity because then a new deck becomes the most powerful deck, then you ban another card, and so the cycle continues ad infinitum. Thus, I think the only logical approach is to ban cards only when specific cards are too powerful (regardless of the powerful level of the decks that run them). Given this criteria, I think the only card that should be banned is Cloudpost as it is the only card that is clearly OP in relation to the rest of the format.
I have huge concerns with Counterspell and FoF being banned as neither of them have proven to be OP in relation to the field. Both of them have analogues which are not strictly worse. As pointed out by TheUsualSuspect, Mana Leak and such are not strictly worse than Counterspell as they have less restrictive mana cost and do fundamentally the same thing. As it pertains to FoF, there are a lot of comparable card draw spells. The most likely split for FoF is 2/3 meaning you are generally going to get 3 mediocre cards or 2 good cards off them. It is worse than scry 5 draw 2. Compare to a card as mediocre as Foresee (scry 4, draw 2) which has never seen Heirloom play. If Foresee was instant speed, I believe it would see play over FoF. Compulsive Research is probably better and cheaper, although not instant speed either. It's clear that neither Counterspell nor FoF is overpowered. Rather, banning them was an attempt to limit the power of Holica's UW control. However, no card in that deck was OP, rather all of the cards when combined made for a powerful deck in the hands of a good pilot, which was what led to its success. To me this was unfair to Holica. And if you really wanted to hurt UW, the real irreplacable card would be Day of Judgment, which no one wants to see banned because then aggro would be too powerful. So I think banning Counterspell and FoF, and especially the now abolished you can play certain cards but not in UW, was really bizarre and not at all helpful. The banning of Counterspell and FoF hurt a lot of different decks such as Delver and Spirits without truly limited UW (Holica still plays it and wins with it) so at least one of those bans needs to go.
I also think Misthollow Griffin isn't too powerful, for the reasons stated.
Many of the bans seem arbitrary to me. Two of the most successful decks in Heirloom of all time were Amar's Quest of the Holy Relic/Tempered Steel deck and now just Tempered Steel. But no one seems interested in banning Tempered Steel because they don't mind playing against it?? Yet a janky combo card such as Necrotic Ooze and a "fair" card like Counterspell/FoF are banned despite not being OP just because people don't want to play against them?? That should not be the criteria for banning. Banning a card should be based on power level alone.
Additionally, I have a question about Duel Decks. Tezzeret the Seeker now appears to be allowed due to the duel deck price. Does legality include these Duel Decks?
Quote from TLR_TLR »Also, Terminus and Entreat are now within legality price. So, not unbanning FoF or Counterspell.
Quote from Farfishere »Unban Necrotic Ooze and ban buried alive or either Triskellion or Phyrexian Devourer. Old Necrotic Ooze decks were great to play with and against, it's just the combo that might be an issue, althought without dark ritual I don't think even that is a problem.
Quote from TLR_TLR »Just something to consider regarding Dark Ritual: a few months ago, people complained about Hymn and Wrench Mind being both legal. Now imagine your opponent going T1 Swamp->Ritual->Duress->Hymn/Wrench Mind. Of course, it still needs a follow up, but if you play something like Raven's Crime, Pack Rat and Hypnotic, you will always have a very powerful and potentially backbreaking turn 1.
Of course, there's also the potential to break a combo, but that's the most discussed part. And like I said before, Dark Ritual would be either meh, or would be too strong for our format... I have a hard time imagining a middle ground.
Quote from AEFabricio »I do not think the unban of CS and FoF would be good for the format, without these cards, the UW holica's deck is very hard to beat, with them then it will get virtually impossible to win.
I know it will generate a lot of discussion yet, but pay attention to the format. UW won 4 of 7 events that you participated in, now imagine this deck with those cards you're asking for unban.
Along this rotation we had 7 different decks in 1st, little in relation to the past rotation where there were 10 different decks, and I believe that with the unban of some cards, that number will decrease even more.
Quote from TLR_TLR »I din't say I agree or disagree with his opinion. It's just that I believe an opinion formed after some time of playing a format is likely to be more valuable than one without any knowledge of how the games play out.
It's like if I commented about the vintage banlist. I could have a correct point of view, and some people might even agree with me, but without playing the format, I could make big evaluation mistakes. That being said, I'm not shooting down his opinion... in fact I like the active approach to the format.
As for the bans/unbans themselves, I usually let people talk first before adding my personal opinion. So if you talk about it and I don't comment, you know it's probably because I'm waiting for more replies from the rest of the players.
I will also repeat what I said in previous occasions. I prefer to be a bit conservative in unbanning cards. They were banned before I even played the format, so I didn't see them before the bans. I might not realize their true potential and I prefer to be conservative than to open pandora's box.
As for the cards being discussed, just a few notes:
- Sword of the Meek, I also don't see a reason why it should be banned, but no need to take it off the list because it wouldn't play due to the price. If the price drops enough, we might reevaluate to see if anything might break it. If not, unban.
- Worldgorger Dragon. I don't know if it's more fair than cephalid, or more fragile. The graveyard hate fights both decks the same way. And all the removal in the format kills one of the cephalid pieces, but only StP would stop this combo. Also, current reanimator getting Iona turn 1 is almost unbeatable, yes, but I've killed it with Anarchy before, so there's a way. The other combo auto wins.
- I don't think giving UW control Counterspell AND Fact or Fiction would be healthy for the format. Again, I'm conservative regarding this.
- Misthollow Griffin, might see an unban. Although I'm not sure if it would be extra scourges, or if decks would play this over the scourge. or if it would matter...